Vol. 414 No. 6
3 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Finance if it is the intention of the Government to honour all pay commitments entered into in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress; if in particular, it is intended to pay all outstanding special awards; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
4 Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Finance if the Government intend meeting, in full, commitments given to public servants under the Programme for National Recovery and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress.
5 Mr. Noonan (Limerick East) asked the Minister for Finance if he will outline (1) the progress which has been made in renegotiating the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and (2) the savings he expects to the Exchequer from the renegotiation; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
21 Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for Finance whether the public service pay agreement on special awards is to be renegotiated in the context of the Government's proposals to deal with the overrun on budgetary targets; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
106 Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for Finance if he intends to make provision in the 1992 Estimates for (a) 3 per cent increase in public service pay under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and (b) the balance of payment for arbitration awards deferred under the Programme for National Recovery; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 3, 4, 5, 21 and 106 together. Public service pay costs are set to increase by well over 10 per cent next year if all liabilities to public servants are to be met. Increased pay spending of this order on a continuing basis has serious implications in 1992 and beyond, if the targets for the Exchequer borrowing requirement set out in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and in the Programme for Government are to be met.
Under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, the national debt to GNP ratio is to be reduced towards 100 per cent by 1993, and as part of this, broad balance on the current budget is to be achieved. The target in the Programme for Government is for an EBR of not more than 1.5 per cent of GNP in 1993. The Government are committed to adhering to those targets.
There is widespread acceptance that corrective action is needed to deal with next year's budgetary problems. On 8 October 1991, the Taoiseach, accompanied by the Ministers for Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Food, Social Welfare and myself, met the social partners in the Central Review Committee under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress to discuss the general economic and fiscal situation.
Following that meeting, the Government have undertaken a rigorous examination of departmental spending estimates for 1992. In parallel with this process, a series of bilateral meetings has been held at official level with the social partners in order to identify how they might contribute constructively to finding solutions to our problems. Following the conclusion of these meetings, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Labour met the employer organisations on 25 November 1991 to discuss various proposals in the areas of training and employment. A meeting between the Taoiseach and Ministers on the one hand and the ICTU on the other, has now been fixed for tomorrow to discuss various issues arising from the earlier bilateral discussions and the meeting with the employers in the context of the developing budgetary position.
I also met representatives of the Irish Congress of Trades Unions on 22 November last. At that meeting I outlined the difficult budgetary situation facing the Government for 1992 and the need to adhere to our targets for the EBR. I indicated that in finalising the package of measures necessary to deal with that situation, the Government would be looking at all possible options — including public service pay — and all sectors of the economy. I asked the ICTU representatives to meet me again the following week. That meeting has not taken place.
Pending conclusion of the discussions with the social partners, who are parties with the Government to the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, it would not be possible for me to indicate the position which the Government will adopt on the matters referred to in the questions.
Before I call Deputy Proinsias De Rossa let me say that the time for dealing with these questions is fast running out. I went to facilitate the three Deputies concerned, Deputies De Rossa, Gay Mitchell and Noonan (Limerick East) and I ask them to be very brief.
Will the Minister agree that the people who are now being asked to carry the can for the Government's miscalculations are among the lowest paid public servants, indeed some of the lowest paid workers in our society, and that it is extremely unjust to insist that these people carry the weight of the State's financial problem? Will the Minister, therefore, outline what other corrective measures are being implemented or examined to raise the money required to meet the commitments freely entered into by both Government and employers to meet the delayed payments, most of which have been delayed for at least four years? Will the Minister agree that if the shoe was on the other foot and the unions were coming to him demanding that the pay element of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress be renegotiated to give their members an increase, he would tell them to get lost?
I appeal for brevity.
If the pay element of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress is abandoned essentially what will happen is that centralised bargaining will be abandoned.
I have never been known to tell the trade union movement to get lost and I would not deal with them in that way. The groups due special pay increases are teachers, gardaí, nurses, prison officers and junior hospital doctors. These are very important groups in Irish life and not for two minutes would I argue against that. The facts are that the special pay increases for next year amount to £77 million and the ordinary round will cost £110 million. When they are taken together with the carry over aspects, the total pay bill will rise by well over 10 per cent, or £340 million.
At the time of negotiating the pay elements of the programme, particularly of the general round, which I was involved in, the issue was based on a review of growth levels for each of the three years. That is precisely the point I made to the unions when I met them on 22 November and the point I made this time last year and right through to when the discussions were completed on 13 January last.
The issue of low pay is being examined in the bilateral discussions. The Deputy also asked about employment and training programmes and the measures we propose to take to deal with tax evasion and avoidance and we hope to take more from the accumulated arrears.
Will the Estimates to be published include full provision for payment in full of other outstanding payments due under the Programme for National Recovery and the payments due under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress? Will the Minister agree to the creation of an economic forum which would allow the social partners, the Opposition and the Government to come together to take the necessary difficult decisions facing the country, including if necessary, decisions on revenue raising exercises to meet the State's commitments? That offer was made by Fine Gael some time ago and will the Minister take up the offer in the national interests?
This was the subject of a motion during Private Members' Time some weeks ago and I suggested at that stage that I would have certain elements examined to see what could be achieved by such co-operation. The Government rejected earlier in the year the idea of going into another forum because we are already involved in the Central Review Committee as we have been since 1987. We rejected the invitation to extend the scope of that committee but I said I would examine some aspects of that motion.
The Minister did not reply to my question on the Estimates.
Following tomorrow's meeting with the social partners, the Estimates will be concluded over the weekend and will be published on Monday or Tuesday, and, more likely, it will be Tuesday.
(Limerick East): The Minister has said that the total increase in the public pay bill next year will be £340 million. I wish to return to the question asked by Deputy Gay Mitchell. In the presentation of the Estimates will the Minister include that £340 million, will he include a lesser amount or will he include nothing at all, apart from an allowance for increments until the budget?
I shall have to give the same reply, but I shall expand it a little. I hope that tomorrow's meeting will almost finalise the bilateral discussions. They will certainly be finalised, so far as I am concerned, on the pay elements.
There are three aspects to the issue. About £187 million is involved in the specials and the general round, which was the subject of the discussions with the Congress of Trade Unions on 22 November. I wish to make it clear, to be fair to the Congress of Trade Unions, that I did not get a reply in relation to that. The remainder, about £160 million, will be involved in the Estimates. If the figures are not in the Estimates then I hope to be able to make a statement about the Government's view on the remainder at the publication of the Estimates.
