Dick Spring
Ceist:5 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the current situation in relation to Anglo-Irish relations; and if he will further outline whether he expects new talks to begin soon on the future of Northern Ireland.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Talks.
John Bruton
Ceist:6 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the plans the Government have to encourage the political parties in Northern Ireland to enter discussions with each other; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Proinsias De Rossa
Ceist:7 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he has had any contact with the British Prime Minister regarding the recent escalation of violence in Northern Ireland and especially the sectarian murder of seven building workers by the Provisional IRA in County Tyrone on 17 January; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Proinsias De Rossa
Ceist:8 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the matters discussed at his recent meetings with representatives of the SDLP; if, in the light of his discussions, he will give his assessment of the prospects for a resumption of talks between the democratic political parties in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Peter Barry
Ceist:9 Mr. Barry asked the Taoiseach if he has contacted the British Prime Minister to ensure that the Northern Ireland talks are resumed as soon as possible.
Peter Barry
Ceist:10 Mr. Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will outline to the U.K. Government (a) the concern felt in this country that the talks in Northern Ireland are being linked with the general election in Britain and (b) that the only consideration in these talks should be the future of the people of Northern Ireland and peace and stability in that region.
Dick Spring
Ceist:11 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach if he has any plans for a further meeting with the British Prime Minister; if he will be seeking a joint declaration by all political parties in the UK that the outcome of the British general election will have no deleterious effect on the conduct of Anglo-Irish relations; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 11 together.
At our meeting in Dublin last month, the British Prime Minister and I reaffirmed our determination to do everything possible to promote agreement and reconciliation and our support for political dialogue to that end, addressing relationships within Northern Ireland, within the island of Ireland and between the peoples of these islands. This continues to be the fundamental principle of the Irish Government's approach.
As the House is aware, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland over the past few months has been exploring the prospects for talks with the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland who were involved in the earlier talks. At their meeting in London on Monday last, the Secretary of State and the party leaders reasserted their support for a process of talks based on Mr. Brooke's statement to the House of Commons on 26 March 1991. However, they concluded with regret that it was not possible in present circumstances to proceed to launch fresh substantive talks on the lines envisaged. They reaffirmed the view that the talks which took place last year had produced genuine dialogue and provided a firm foundation for further substantive exchanges in due course. They expressed the hope that this would be taken further at the appropriate time.
I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate the Government's continuing support for, and their determination to do everything possible to help in, this process. The British Government are fully aware of this position which the Minister for Foreign Affairs again emphasised to the Secretary of State at their meeting yesterday in the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. A meeting with the British Prime Minister does not, therefore, arise at this time but, as Deputies will be aware, a meeting is due under the agreement which I reached with him on 4 December last for half-yearly meetings alternately in London and Dublin, at which all aspects of relations would be reviewed.
In relation to the question of seeking a joint declaration by all political parties in the UK, I would emphasise that the attitude of the Irish Government to the questions at issue is well known and, while we would welcome an agreed approach by the parties, we would consider it inappropriate in the context of a general election to intervene specially to seek any specific declaration.
The prospects for political progress in Northern Ireland were discussed at recent meetings with the SDLP. I do not intend to depart from the understanding under which these meetings are held — that what is said at them is confidential between the participants.
The Minister for Foreign Affairs has already made clear the Government's utter revulsion at the appalling loss of life in the County Tyrone bombing last Friday week. At yesterday's meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference he reiterated to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland the Government's condemnation of the perpetrators of that atrocity. I know that all Members of this House will join me in expressing our deepest sympathy to the bereaved and injured. The Government are resolute in their determination that every lawful means will be used to ensure that those who resort to terrorism will not succeed.
I certainly join with the Taoiseach on behalf of all members of my party, in condemning the outrage which took place in County Tyrone on 17 January and in sympathising with the relatives of those seven building workers. I have no difficulty in accepting what the Taoiseach says in relation to the Government's efforts since 1987 in seeking agreement and reconciliation, the fundamental principles of which policy were outlined by the Taoiseach on many occasions in this House and supported. It is a policy which has been assiduously pursued by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs over the past few years. Does the Taoiseach accept that the statements made yesterday by the Minister for Labour do not concur fully with the policy pursued by the Government in the past number of years? Perhaps this needs clarification from the Taoiseach at the earliest opportunity. Despite what the Taoiseach says in relation to the British election, does he not consider that a statement should be made by the Government that Northern Ireland should not be a bartering point in the British general election? It would be very unhelpful, in the context of the efforts of the Government and the previous Government in relation to the Ango-Irish Agreement, should Northern Ireland become a political football in the British general election.
With regard to the first point, the statement by the Minister for Labour, I have spoken to him about that and he gave it to me as his view and his clear impression that what he said was fully in conformity with the approach of the Government and that the policy which we have been pursuing since this Government and its predecessor came into office, and which Deputy Spring generously admits has been consisently pursued, is the right policy and has the support of all parties in this House.
With regard to the British general election, the Deputy know enough about practical politics to realise that that is a sensitive matter. It touches on the issue of two member states interfering or appearing to interfere in each other's internal affairs. I agree with Deputy Spring that none of us would want the affairs of Northern Ireland to become a political issue or football in a general election campaign. I would be afraid that if we were to make any particular approaches it would inevitably end up in some difficult and unsatisfactory situation. I could not be sure of that but the danger is there and it is a danger we should not risk. We welcome the position of all the parties taking part in the British general election to support the efforts which have been undertaken for some considerable time in order to bring about peace and reconciliation through political dialogue. In that connection I remind the Deputy that if the talks had been resumed before the general election both ourselves, and more particularly the SDLP, would have to handle with great care and sensitivity the question of what would happen after the general election in regard to those talks. As it transpires, the question does not arise because the talks will not now be resumed. But it is an area which calls for very careful judgment and about which we have been very sensitive. I think the approach to which I have referred in my answer is the right one.
Would the Taoiseach agree with the view I put to the leaders of both British political parties this week, that is that the great strength of the Anglo-Irish Agreement is that it is an international agreement and, therefore, its provisions and the processes initiated under it cannot be set aside by the results of an election in either State? Furthermore, would the Taoiseach join me, and hopefully other party leaders on this side of the Border, in calling on anybody, on either side of the Border who has information that could lead to the conviction of the people who perpetrated the murders at Teebane, to give that information to the security forces as appropriate on both sides of the Border. Would the Taoiseach join me in making that call to anybody who has such information?
One does not want to over-dramatise that situation but it is the duty of every citizen in regard to any matter of that kind, in the case of any crime, to co-operate fully with the police forces. I am sure that the overwhelming majority of our citizens do so. I suppose that applies particularly in the case of the more heinous type of crime, such as the atrocity committed. I could not imagine any right thinking citizen who was in possession of any information in regard to the perpetration of these particular crimes withholding that information from the lawful authorities.
Would the Taoiseach reply to the first part of my question? I asked whether he would agree with the view I had expressed to both British political party leaders that the Anglo-Irish Agreement could not be set aside as a result of any change in the political position in one country because it is an international agreement?
I commend the Deputy for his efforts in that regard; I doubt if it was necessary but it is no harm to reiterate these things from time to time. The Anglo-Irish Agreement is a solemn international agreement entered into by two sovereign Governments and, as such, is binding on successive Governments. As an international agreement between two sovereign States it can be amended, altered or negatived only by agreement between those two member states.
I should like to associate with the Taoiseach's condolences to the bereaved arising from the disgraceful massacre that took place at Teebane Cross when eight people lost their lives. In regard to the Minister for Labour's statement on Radio Ulster, would the Taoiseach confirm in this House that there is no consideration given at Cabinet level to changing current Government policy in relation to Northern Ireland because the Minister suggested in the course of that interview that Fianna Fáil might return to the policies of the mid-seventies and seek a phased British disengagement from the North by agreement——
I was hoping for brevity.
——whereas I understand that that is not current Government policy? Would the Taoiseach confirm that there is no discussion at present on changing the Government position at this time? Furthermore would the Taoiseach indicate whether he expects the Brooke initiative — whether or not Mr. Brooke is reinstated as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland after the British general election — or talks will resume before the summer? Would he accept that many people in this House and elsewhere find it inexplicable that those talks broke down at such an early stage since they are, after all, only talks about talks, and it seems extraordinary that the politicians in Northern Ireland cannot get these talks under way?
I must appeal for brevity again and remind the House that I shall be proceeding to deal with other questions at 3.30 p.m.
I am sure the Deputy would not expect me to indicate what matters are or are not discussed at Cabinet; that is not the way our parliamentary democracy works; at least discussions at Cabinet are intended to be confidential. However, the only thing I can do is assure the Deputy that the policy of the Government, and of the Fianna Fáil Party, is as I have announced it here and reiterated on many occasions in this House. That is not to say, I suppose, that all of us could not look forward to the day when, through peaceful political negotiations and the promotion of dialogue and harmony, the time would arrive when it would be a quite practical, feasible proposition for the British military authorities to decide that their presence in Northern Ireland was no longer necessary.
Did the Taoiseach hear or see a transcript of what the Minister for Labour said because I believe that if he did hear it or read the transcript, he would agree that it was insensitive and was an unwise broadcast to have made at present and will not help in the resumption of the talks——
We are having quite an amount of repetition now.
I would ask the Taoiseach to form his judgment on the matter having read the transcript or heard the broadcast. While everybody would subscribe to the view that we should not interfere in one another's affairs and that Northern Ireland policy should not be used as a football by either or both Governments, at the same time — and here indeed the Taoiseach himself may be somewhat guilty as was the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Brooke — the door was opened for Unionists to soft pedal on the talks in the event of a hung Parliament arising from the British general election. Therefore, in that sense we have a legitimate interest in the outcome of the British general election. In that respect I welcome the undertaking given by the current British Prime Minister and Leader of the British Labour Party that there will not be any question of their being blackmailed after their general election.
Having accepted what Deputy John Bruton said about it being the duty of everybody to help the law in bringing to justice the people responsible for these acts, would the Taoiseach also take note of the reports in yesterday's financial papers about certain public companies being used as vehicles for the laundering of IRA money? Would he ensure that every assistance is given to ensure that that does not happen or that there would be any financial institution here that would assist in that area?
We are now having an injection of new matter.
I have no hesitation giving the Deputy the assurance he seeks in regard to the last matter. These matters are constantly kept under review and examination by the Garda authorities. I am quite certain that they are alert to anything of that nature and would take whatever action was necessary, as they have done in the past. I remember a famous occasion when the Deputy was in Government, when this party were in Opposition, when we co-operated very fully with the then Coalition Government in regard to funds being transferred from the USA here which were clearly funds to be used by subversive organisations. Therefore the Deputy need not have any problem in that regard. The Garda Síochána and the security forces generally naturally would be alert to and continually investigate and keep under review that area. As we all know, the lifeblood of a terrorist organisation is funding. Therefore, the need to control, restrict and totally eliminate the provision of funds for terrorist organisations is a paramount part of our security policy.
I overlooked answering Deputy De Rossa's supplementary question which was what was likely to be the situation after the British general election. Deputy Barry has now adverted to the same matter. There is no doubt, whatever the outcome of the British general election, very serious efforts will be made to resume the process of dialogue initiated under the stewardship of Secretary Brooke. There are so many reasons in favour of that that it would be absurd to think it would not happen. For instance, everybody is agreed that, while the last process did not end in any concrete results, nevertheless the experience gained was invaluable and, in my view and that of my colleagues, left a substantial residue of goodwill, co-operation and recognition of the importance of dialogue which will last for a long time and I think most people would hope it would be built on. From all we read, hear and know from our own contacts with the British parties it is the wish of all of them that in one way or another, this process can be taken up again and can be progressed. I am quite sure that is what will happen. I am sure everybody in the House will hope that it will happen. That has dealt with Deputy Barry's question.
Perhaps we can have a brief question from Deputy Currie. I have asked the House to help me to proceed with as many questions as possible addressed to the Taoiseach today. I am disappointed with the progress.
May I join in the condemnation of the massacre at Teebane Cross, three of the victims were former constituents of mine? May I ask the Taoiseach whether he would agree that the major purposes of that massacre were first, to force the British Government to introduce internment and, second, to facilitate and try to force a sectarian civil war in Northern Ireland where the Provos would again be able to pretend they are the defenders of the Catholic community?
Would he agree that, in those circumstances, political progress is of the essence, it is the only way forward. While I agree with the latter part of what the Taoiseach has just said, would he agree that there are certain things the British and Irish Governments jointly, under the Anglo Irish Agreement, could do in order to facilitate the talks process, particularly in the context of 1992 and the European dimension? They should consider going ahead. While there will be no lasting solution without the support of the two traditions in Northern Ireland, the two Governments could go ahead and help the process. Finally, may I suggest to members of the Cabinet and, indeed to all Members of the House, that often it is not what one says, it is how one says it and where one says it. Those who give interviews on Radio Ulster ought to be particularly careful.
The Deputy has covered a great deal of ground.
I am delighted I got the opportunity.
On this most recent atrocity, I do not really think it matters a great deal to any of us in this House what the particular motivation was. It is quite clear that it was an abhorrent deed, one which fills us with revulsion. The idea that seven ordinary citizens of this country would have their lives suddenly taken away in this brutal fashion is abhorrent to us all. We are all agreed in our condemnation of it and in our determination to do everything we can, on the security front and on the political front, to bring all this horrible debasing violence to an end. I agree with Deputy Currie, who in his time has been much closer to this situation than any of us, on the need for political progress. If there is a vacuum left by total political stultification then that vacuum, as we know to our horror, will be filled by somebody. In our case, unfortunately, here by men of violence. Everything points to the imperative need for political progress and political dialogue. I assure the Deputy that in so far as the Government are concerned and, particularly, my colleague the Minister for Foreign Affairs Deputy Collins, who has primary responsibility in the area we lost no opportunity for that. In fact, on a previous occasion, I think more than anybody else of the parties concerned, we gave concession after concession and found formulas and compromises to enable the process to stay afloat when frequently it looked as if it might founder. There is no question about that.
I too share the Deputy's optimism about the European dimension. I have said here on countless occasions that I see the possibility of a way forward in the European context. When all the old animosities of Europe are fading away, when the ancient enemies and the countries which were formerly enemies in Europe are now coming together in the closest harmony and co-operation, determined only on the welfare and prosperity of the people, surely that must be a lesson for us. The fact that we are now all subject to common Community policies, that the Single Market will abolish economic boundaries and that we all send members to the European Parliament in time must have a benevolent influence on the situation.