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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1992

Private Members' Business. - Third Level Education Grants: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns

(1) the discrimination against PAYE workers and their families in assessment of eligibility for third level education grants,

(2) the exclusion of low income families from third level education due to unrealistic income thresholds and

(3) the proposal to means test ESF grants

and calls on the Government to immediately

(i) increase the income thresholds for eligibility for third level education grants by 33 per cent;

(ii) provide a tax free allowance for expenditure on third level education;

(iii) give recognition to families with more than one member in third level education at the same time;

(iv) assess all existing and future mature students for grant eligibility on the basis of their own income; and

(v) defer means testing of ESF student grants for one year pending a review of all higher education grantaid by the ESRI.

With the permission of the House I would seek to share time with my colleagues, Deputy Therese Ahearn and Deputy McGrath.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

On 18 and 19 February last, we debated in this House the ill-judged means testing proposal for ESF grants which Minister Brennan had just inherited from his predecessor, former Minister Davern. We deliberately chose a date early in the Minister's career as Education Minister to debate the issue and early in the year in order to allow him a dignified "put down" of one of the most socially unjust and educationally backward proposals to come from any Minister in recent times. The Minister on the night declined our overtures. However, it was generally felt that over the intervening months he would do the wise thing and jettison what is an indefensible proposal, much the same as he gradually dismantled the equally unpalatable and similarly inheritied An Post viability plan.

The Minister has disappointed us. His store of commonsense seems to have deserted him. His sense of fair play seems to have been blinded by the cold logic of the mathematicians in the Department of Finance and he seems hell-bent on charging over the precipice but the Minister should be warned that he is at the edge of the precipice now.

This is a big issue. Sixty-one thousand 17 and 18 year olds sat the leaving certificate ten days ago. Even allowing for yesterday's changes, there will be very few children of teachers, doctors, gardaí, engineers, nurses, industrial or service workers, journalists or civil servants who will be eligible for a higher education grant for a university. The thresholds are still too low. One qualifies on gross not on net income. There is no cognisance of special circumstances, let alone mortgage costs or day-to-day living expenses. This afternoon I was contacted by an individual who is married, has four children and a gross income of £20,000. The banner headlines had lifted his expectation that at last he was about to benefit under the new scheme. Alas, when he examined the detail he was to be disappointed — no grant for any of his four children. He put it very well. Between tax and PRSI he pays £5,000. That leaves him with £15,000. He pays £5,000 on his £40,000 mortgage. That leaves him with £10,000. Out of that he is hard put to meet food, clothing, heating, electricity and transport costs. He was quite blunt. He cannot afford to send his daughter to college next year.

As I have indicated so often in the past, the scheme is riddled with anomalies. He pointed out to me a further anomaly. If his daughter applies for dole his mortgage is taken into consideration in assessing the family's means. However, neither mortgage nor any other essential cost counts for higher education grant purposes. Some families will send their sons and daughters to third level but it means borrowing £5,000 each year for a minimum of four years. These families literally have to sacrifice all and put their lives on "hold". They have to re-mortgage their houses. Too bad if one has a second child attending simultaneously.

To thousands of these middle income families the ESF grant represents the only real chance of getting into third level. This £39 per week maintenance grant has not alone opened up third level education for 27,000 young people of middle income PAYE taxpayers but these top-class young people have in turn energised the nine regional technical colleges and the six Dublin Institute of Technology colleges which have, in turn, become the economic focal points of the regions in which they are located.

It is conservatively estimated that the presence of a regional college is worth £10 million to the local economy. How ironic, therefore, that a mere five days after this House has passed the Regional Technical Colleges Bill and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, giving the colleges greater flexibility and autonomy, the Minister should effectively pull the rug out from under them. How contradictory that while still extolling the Culliton report recommendations on the need for greater emphasis on technological education Industry Minister, Deputy O'Malley, and his party, should continue to back a decision that flies in the face of everything Culliton prescribes. Have the Government even read the articles in the Maastricht Treaty dealing with the need for improved technical skills? How incredible that a mere two weeks after warning us during the debate on Maastricht that ESF grants would be drastically affected by a "No" vote, our own Fianna Fáil-PD Government should now seek to whittle them away.

The blunt reality for a sizeable segment of the leaving certificate class of 1992 is that no grant means no college; no college means no education; no education means no future. Can the Minister not see the powerful argument for more education not less education? Can he not see that in a country with scarce resources education is the new form of capital in society? Does the Minister not see that the amount of it one has determines the place that one has in society, that it bridges the gap between the rich and the poor?

Last Friday the Government announced a shameful figure of 282,000 unemployed. The Government have failed miserably to deliver on their promises in theProgramme for Economic and Social Progress. They have failed to provide jobs for young people and now they are going to fail to educate them. Let the Minister not repeat for us his message of last February that we have to subsidise ESF funds from the national Exchequer to the tune of £10 million. If one gets £10 out for every £1 one puts in that is a good value investment indeed. Did the Minister not issue a press release calling for a strong “Yes” vote on the Maastricht Treaty because of all the extra ESF funds we could expect for education? Neither should the Minister treat us to another regurgitation of his recent, long-heralded increase in eligibility thresholds and other administrative changes in the higher education grants scheme. All the Minister is doing is tinkering with the system, not reforming it, and certainly not getting to the nub of the problem. If one trawled the administrative jungles of this country one could not find a more discriminatory, inequitable, flawed or anti-PAYE middle income system than the higher education grant scheme. What the Minister is now proposing to do is to import into the ESF grants all the warts and weals of a discredited system into another system that is working so well. The Minister is not levelling the playing field as he purports, but making the playing field unplayable for thousands more.

Let us remember that we are not talking just about the class of '92. The classes of '93, '94, '95 and '96 are watching with interest as well and so are their parents and so are the communities in the regions in which the colleges are located and which will be catastrophically affected if means testing goes ahead. These people are deeply conscious of what is happening and they will not remain as dumb spectators while a perfectly good system is pulled asunder.

In this motion we are putting to the Minister a number of reasonable alternatives. We are asking him not to tamper with the ESF scheme until a comprehensive in-depth analysis of the entire area of third level student grants has been undertaken. This is something which is long overdue. We are advocating a complete analysis taking into consideration and social, economic, regional and geographic factors.

There is no more competent agency to undertake this task than the Economic and Social Research Institute. We are putting a time limit of one year on this analysis.

Later this evening we will pass the local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Bill which will extend the scope of grants to mature students. Yet this Bill will exclude the 350 mature students who prepared the submissions, mounted the lobby and proved the case for extending the scope of the grants. I appeal to the Minister to include these people in the scheme. The measures he announced yesterday evening are welcome. I do not want to be negative, but they are simply a partial relief; they are not reform. Thousands of middle income families will still be outside the scope of the scheme. I am extremely disappointed that the thousands of students currently attending university and who are not receiving any grant aid will not be included and that the grant will simply apply to those who enter college for the first time next September. This motion proposes a tax-free allowance for such families. This would go some of the way towards placating the genuine sense of grievance felt by people caught in this income trap. I urge the Minister to accept this motion notwithstanding the fact that my proposal that the income thresholds be increased by 33 per cent has been superseded by his announcement yesterday.

The motion proposed by my colleague, Deputy Jim Higgins, on behalf of the Fine Gael Party is very timely. I might add that it has already forced the Minister for Education to take action, inadequate though it is. The continued persistence of Fine Gael in outlining the gross inequities and the unfairness in the higher education grants system has at last coerced the Government into taking some steps to improve the system and widen the eligibility prospects of many, though not enough, students. Unfortunately, the discrimination against PAYE workers and their families and the exclusion of modest income families from third level education will continue.

The most controversial, regressive and unjustifiable decision to means-test ESF grants still remains. It is for these reasons that I believe the motion before the House should be supported. No one can deny that the unjust operation of the higher education grants scheme discriminates heavily against PAYE workers and places an almost impossible financial burden on families with modest incomes in the provision of third level education for their children.

I welcome the Minister's decision to substantially increase the income eligibility limits. However, he admitted, the original limits were scandalously low. Many modest income families will continue to be excluded from grant aid. My colleague, Deputy Higgins, gave the Minister a very real example of this. A family with two children earning one penny more than £15,000 per year will still lose part of the grant. It is not mathematically possible for such a family to pay the costs of putting a child through college, which amount to approximately £3,500 per annum. Fine Gael propose that in future such families be given a tax-free allowance on their expenditure on third level education.

The Minister may say to us that he has increased the thresholds by more than the 33 per cent outlined in the Fine Gael motion. I want to say to him that our proposal included income tax relief. It is extraordinary that tax relief is allowed on a mortgage and investment in industry but not on investment in education. We propose that such income tax relief should be at the marginal rate. The Minister must realise the enormous burden being placed on modest income families in the provision of third level education for their children. As has been outlined, many families are forced to remortgage their houses and take out expensive loans. In the interests of equity and fairness it is reasonable to propose income tax relief for such families. I am glad that the new measures announced by the Minister will give relief to some families. Unfortunately, they will also exclude many families who are still unable to afford third level education. Our tax relief proposal will in some way compensate those who are over the income thresholds and, more importantly, will keep the door open to third level education.

The means testing of ESF grants was a most controversial, regressive and unjustifiable decision. I say this because the present system of means testing is inherently unfair, blatantly unjust and discriminatory. It is regrettable that the Minister did not get to the root of the problem in his re-examination of third level education grants. The new proposals, welcome though they are, will not ensure that all of those who cannot afford third level education will receive a grant. This is the kernel of the problem. No steps have been take to cater for exceptional circumstances and the enormous financial commitments which have to be met by families. These are the circumstances which can prevent a child from obtaining third level education. The burden on the PAYE family will remain; the inequity in the system has not been remedied. This is a reasonable, sound and logical motion, and in the interests of fairness and equity it should be supported by all parties.

I compliment Deputy Higgins on bringing forward this motion at a time when students have just completed their leaving certificates and matriculation examinations and are assessing their future career prospects. It is very appropriate that we are debating higher education grants at this time. It is no coincidence that the Minister for Education announced the very welcome increase in the income limits for eligibility for grants to third level students yesterday, the eve of this debate initiated by the Fine Gael Party. I hope the public will rightly attribute these improvements to the sustained pressure placed on the Government by Deputy Higgins and the Fine Gael Party over the past few months.

I welcome the new income limits and the commitment given by the Minister that assessment of incomes will be carried out by inspectors of the Revenue Commissioners. We have all heard allegations in regard to the way some local authorities were administering the scheme. Many accountants in County Westmeath told me that Westmeath County Council were administering the scheme much more strictly than any other county council. Be that as it may, I welcome the fact that the system will in future be administered equitably and any anomalies ironed out.

It is time there was more transparency in relation to the recipients of third level grants. I have often heard people complaining that the children of big businessmen with two or three cars seem to be able to qualify for third level grants, while the children of the local garda sergeant or Army officer do not qualify because they are PAYE workers. As I said, it is time there was more transparency in the system. I suggest to the Minister that every year local authorities should publish a list of students receiving grants. This would lead to more transparency in the system and ensure people are not accused of receiving grants when they have not received them.

I was amazed to hear the Minister of State say that there is a higher education grants committee operating in his county council. I have to say, as a member of a county council, that I have never heard of such a committee. I look forward to the formation of one of these committees in my county. I have been assured by Deputy Higgins that such committees are statutory and should be set up in every county. I was surprised to hear this.

The Minister needs to review again the income thresholds in a more constructive way. Recently I was visited by a member of the Garda Síochána whose third child will start third level education next September. As he is unable to pay the fees he has had to take the only option open to him, that is, retire from the force and take his gratuity. This means he will be able to repay the debts he has accumulated to date and his youngest child will qualify for a grant.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes with satisfaction the Government's introduction of major reforms to the various third level student support schemes which will

—bring greater equity to the schemes; and

—ensure that families in the low to middle income brackets will benefit greatly from the improvements as announced by the Minister for Education on 6th July, 1992.

The motion refers to bringing greater equity to the schemes of student support. This is in line with a central theme of Government policy, namely, positive discrimination to ensure that the benefits of education are distributed equally over all sections of the community rather than compounding the advantage of those who are already privileged. This is a major theme of the Green Paper published recently.

Recent years have seen a major transformation in the structure and growth of the third level sector, with the development and expansion of the Dublin Institute of Technology (DIT), the regional technical colleges and the two national institutes of higher education, with the latter more recently designated as universities. During the same period, considerable growth occurred in the university sector, in particular in the technology/business disciplines, but accompanied also by a wide range of exciting and innovative new developments in the arts, the social sciences and other disciplines.

The future development of higher education will seek to maintain and build upon a balance between the technological and humanities sectors. I made this clear in the recent Green Paper. A key contribution of the sector is to help to develop people who are willing and able to manage innovation and change in all sectors of society, including the creation of wealth and employment.

The development of third-level education in Ireland is fully in line with approaches in all other developed countries, which are seeking actively to build up participation and completion rates to meet the economic and social challenges of the nineties and the new century. Higher education now requires a very large investment by the State and by individuals.

Great advances have been made in facilitating access to education at all levels. It is a measure of the Government's success that 73 per cent of all students complete the senior cycle of second-level education. It is confidently expected to increase this to 90 per cent during the present decade. At third level the number of full time, third level students has grown from 21,000 in 1965 to 75,000 in the last academic year, an increase of 350 per cent over a quarter of a century. Higher education now requires a very large investment by the State and by individuals.

A further increase of 15,000 places is projected over the next four or five years. In a period of less than ten years from the mid-eighties to the mid-nineties 34,000 additional students will have been given the opportunity of third level education — a staggering increase of 60 per cent. There will be 90,000 full time third level students in State-funded colleges by the middle of the decade. Student intake in 1991-92 was close to 26,000, representing almost 40 per cent of the age group and, with the additional places to be provided under theProgramme for Economic and Social Progress, participation is likely to increase in the medium term to about 45 per cent of the age cohort. About half the intake proceed to degree-level programmes.

Although still below the best levels in the EC member states, Ireland has made dramatic strides in increasing the participation rate in recent years. Further measures to increase our participation rates in third level eduction will have particular regard to the need, pointed out in the Green Paper, to improve the participation rates of those from economically disadvantaged areas. Growth of such magnitude gives a clear indication of the enormous financial and logistical demands which we face in providing quality higher education for such a large proportion of our young population.

Still the Government wish to ensure that lack of means should not constitute an insuperable obstacle to any student who has the ability to benefit from a third level education. They acknowledge, at the same time, the considerable financial sacrifices made by parents and, indeed, students in pursuit of their legitimate aspiration to acquire a third level qualification. These were the precise considerations which led the Government to introduce the changes to our student support schemes which I was happy to announce yesterday.

The first issue that had to be faced was that of the income eligibility limits. There was consensus in this House that they were unacceptably low — I described them as scandalously low. It is important to note that these income limits will be increased by a further £2,000 in respect of each child after the first child attending third level education.

Under the existing system the income limit for full fees and full maintenance support in the case of a family with two children has been increased from £10,787 to £15,000, an increase of £4,213 or 39 per cent. The full fee grant for a family with two children is being increased from £13,822 to £18,000, an increase of 30 per cent. Up to now a family of two children with an income of more than £14,672 received no grant for fees or maintenance but under the new limits this family will get full fees and full maintenance on this income. A three children family with an income in excess of £14,023 received a full fee grant but no maintenance grant while this family will now get a full maintenance grant up to an income limit of £15,000. A three children family with an income in excess of £15,480 received no fee or maintenance grant while the same family with an income between £15,000 and £16,000 will now receive a full fees grant and a 50 per cent maintenance grant.

A four children family with an income in excess of £14,832 up to now received no maintenance grant but that family will now be entitled to full fees and maintenance grant up to an income limit of £16,500, full fees up to an income limit of £19,500 and part fees up to an income limit of £20,500. A five children family with an income in excess of £15,500 up to now received a full fee grant but no maintenance grant. This family will now be entitled to full grants for fees and maintenance. That is an example of some of the dramatic increases which I was pleased to announce yesterday.

These are substantial increases specifically designed to benefit people on low to middle income and would experience considerable financial hardship in sending their children to a third level institution. A further noteworthy point is the introduction of more equitable, open and more rigorous procedures involving the Revenue Commissioners, which are important at this time. I cannot emphasise too strongly that the whole rationale underlying Government policy in this matter is to relieve financial hardship on the low and middle income families who will now benefit under the increased eligibility limits. I was particularly keen to see greater equity, fairness and openness introduced into the system of means-testing for student support and in the allocation of resources for students and their families.

The amended schemes, including the package of improvements which I announced earlier in the year, represent the most radical and far-reaching set of reforms in student support since the schemes were introduced in the late sixties. They also strike the right balance in resource allocation between the funding of the third-level education system as a whole on the one hand and support for individual students who use the system on the other.

As I pointed out means testing will also apply to new ESF grant holders from next September. It was consistent with the overall thrust towards equity and positive discrimination that the principle of means testing, once accepted, should apply to all maintenance grants. Differential application of the means test was a clear anomaly in the system which needed to be addressed. Initial concern expressed by a number of interests will give way to recognition of the manifest equity of the decision, particularly in view of my announcement yesterday. It will be seen in the wider context of achieving more places for more students in third level education within the scope of the funds available. It will also result in a more equitable proportion of students from lower income families gaining access to third level education.

Two points needs to be borne in mind: (i) a means test will not apply to existing ESF students and they will continue to receive non-means-tested grants under the conditions of the existing ESF grants schemes; and (ii) all ESF students will continue to receive free tuition.

It will be readily accepted by the House that the question of student support is of fundamental importance as we embark on major expansion of our third level system. The positive link between third level education and economic development has long been recognised and was recognised by Opposition speakers again this evening. It goes without saying that the Irish university system, the colleges of technology and the regional technical colleges have provided a constant flow of high-quality graduates for the professional, economic and, indeed, political life of this and many other countries. There is now a huge social demand for third level education, in Ireland more so than in many other similar countries. We are now at the point where we are trying to provide a third level education for every student who wants it and who demonstrates the ability to benefit from it.

I am absolutely convinced that in going down that road the Government have the solid support of the vast majority of the people whose conviction of the inherent value of education has been unwavering over a long period. I am also convinced that they are willing to make the necessary resources available. But it is the responsibility of Government to make decisions regarding the most equitable and cost-effective allocation of those resources. This in turn involves the making of choices between a range of feasible options in the area of student support. The options vary from a regime of economic fees and very restricted maintenance on the one hand to free tuition and very generous maintenance on the other. What the Government have tried to do is to reach the best possible compromise between these two extremes, in the light of custom and practice and in the light of the resources available for student support.

Accordingly, fees have been retained as an integral part of the funding of higher education here. I should point out, of course, that yearly lecture fees represent less than one-third of the unit cost of a student place for the academic year. Moreover, in respect of ESF students the Department will continue to pay the fee on their behalf. With regard to maintenance, the principle of means-testing has been retained as an essential instrument of equitable resource allocation. In the interests of removing an existing anomaly, all student grants, with the exception of those held by existing ESF students, will in future be means-tested.

Finally, let me list again the objectives which the Government set out to achieve in their review of student support schemes. The primary and overall objective was to ensure equity within and between the different schemes. This included the removal of any outstanding barriers which might militate against access for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. The second objective was to address, to the extent that it was practicable and affordable, the financial pressures on students from lower and middle-income families.

In pursuing these objectives the Government have increased the income eligibility limits and have undertaken to develop more equitable means assessment criteria. They have also decided that equity demands that the same rules should apply to all.

People on all sides of the House will give their assent to the objectives of the review. Time will show that the recent measures represent the most prudent approach to the achievement of these objectives. Accordingly, it is with full conviction that I recommend the amended motion for adoption.

The decision to increase the eligibility limits by between 40 and 50 per cent, and up to 50 per cent in some cases, is the most dramatic increase in student grants since the scheme was introduced in 1968. Successive Governments have not found the resources to tackle the issue. The figure of £10,700 which has now gone to £15,000 is not as great as I would like it to be but the figure has been brought somewhat closer to the average industrial wage. Over a long period we have only been able to make some adjustments arising from inflation. This is the first quantum leap in student support in 25 years. This is the way to tackle the question of giving increased support particularly to the PAYE sector and to hard-pressed families who are trying to send their children to universities and regional technical colleges. This will benefit thousands of students and it will be welcomed. It will largely offset any residual concern about the Government's decision to means test the ESF grant.

What we needed was not so much to make the university sector pay for the regional technical college sector, orvice versa, but equality in the system. I am disappointed that the Opposition speakers cannot acknowledge that the equity of the system dictates that we should not make fish of one sector and flesh of the other. Are we trying to say that regional technical colleges are second-class institutions to which different rules should apply? They are not second-class. They are on a par with universities and recent legislation stitches that into the record. The regional technical colleges and the universities are fine institutions and the same rules should apply to both of them. I cannot understand why some Members of the House seem to feel that they should be treated differently. It seems to be something to do with money from Europe, as if that was easy money or free money.

On the question of money, £10 million of the money available for ESF grants had to come from the Exchequer. A substantial portion of the money comes from the Irish taxpayer. If we preach equity in education we have to stand over it. We cannot pay lip service to equity and then tell the parent on the doorstep that the person next door, who is earning £50,000 a year, will not be means-tested while the person on £15,000 a year will be means-tested because the regional technical college is a different institution. They are both third level and are on a par. They are both fine institutions and in equity the same rules should apply.

The proposals I announced yesterday are aimed to taking the pressure off the PAYE sector. I announced that we will be introducing new rules in regard to eligibility criteria. That will not be a witch-hunt after one sector but to ensure that the perception of the PAYE sector towards the non-PAYE sector andvice versa is that the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that when somebody states his income it is genuine and there is no reason to doubt the documentation or the word of anybody either PAYE or not. This is to make sure that there is an above board approach to the criteria. The active involvement of the Revenue Commissioners in working with the local authorities and the vocational education committee will clear up any perception that one sector has one advantage over another. That perception understandably comes from the statistic which shows that the non-PAYE sector has a very high proportion of the total available places. It is important to remove that perception which may be ill-founded.

The Fine Gael motion asks me to deal with discrimination against PAYE workers and their families with regard to eligibility. Bringing in the Revenue Commissioners will tackle that. They also ask me to tackle the exclusion of low income families from third level education due to unrealistic income thresholds and to increase the thresholds by 33 per cent. I have increased the thresholds by 40 per cent and by 50 per cent. I would argue that I have more than met that part of the motion. With regard to providing a tax free allowance for expenditure on third level education, that is a hairbrained idea which is not really fair. A family on social welfare would get no benefit while the person next door on £60,000 per annum would get a tax free allowance at the highest rate. The richer family will get a major State benefit while the family next door, because they do not pay tax, will get no benefit.

The Minister is giving them a grant.

That is not in the Deputy's motion.

It is there by implication.

My proposition is the fairer way to do it. I do not doubt the Deputy's goodwill in suggesting a tax free allowance. Indeed, many of us could do with it when trying to send our children to third level education, but it would militate against those who do not have the benefit of good incomes. The motion also asks me to give recognition to families with more than one member in third level education at the same time. There is the special provision of an extra £2,000 for such cases. The motion also asks me to assess all existing and future mature students on the basis of their own income and that is what we are doing in today's Bill, so that portion of the motion is also met. All that is left is some worry about ESF grants which have been fully taken account of in a fairer way, in bringing equity into the system. The motion is fair enough, but I would argue that I have more than met the aims in the motion. Yesterday's announcement will go a long way towards giving a chance of education to thousands of families throughout the country who up to now had not got such chance. What is most important is to have equity in education; equal access and equal opportunity for everybody regardless of means.

I am amazed that Members are arguing that I should choose not to means-test somebody on £50,000 per annum who wishes to send his or her child to a regional technical college instead of the alternative course of action of means-testing income and thereby giving the opportunity to three or four other children to go to the regional technical colleges. At the end of the day that is the choice we have to make. I am amazed that Members pay lip service to rather than standing behind the concept of equity. I stand over my proposals to means-test income for ESF maintenance support. These proposals are sensible and equitable. The historic dramatic increase in income levels, the first in almost 25 years, will go a long way to improving the lot of students.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I wish to give five minutes of my time to Deputy Gilmore?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I stated last week that since I became spokesperson on Education there had not been a great deal of debate in this House on education, but events this week and last week give the lie to that. I compliment Deputy J. Higgins on bringing this motion before the House. Indeed, the Fine Gael Party have devoted a large proportion of their Private Members' time to education matters.

To some extent this end of term debate has been overtaken by events, which, in the main, are very welcome. It would be dishonest of me not to welcome the measures announced by the Minister yesterday. However, towards the end of his contribution, when the Minister was speakingad lib, he went for the over kill. The Clancy report, published in 1986, showed that 30 per cent of the children of professional parents went to university while only 12.2 per cent went to the regional technical colleges and 13.9 per cent of the children of manual workers went to university while 31.4 per cent attended regional technical colleges. The point needs to be made that children from the professional classes, by and large, attend university rather than a regional technical college.

The Minister made an impassioned plea for equity across the board. The question of means-testing parental income to determine the maintenance portion of the ESF grant is not quite as simple as the Minister makes out. We argued this point at some length in recent weeks and I outlined what I believe will happen when the maintenance portion of the ESF grant is subjected to means-testing in September this year. I made the point, which I repeated this morning that the net result of this change will be that students who would otherwise avail of the opportunity of third level education will not be able to do so. That is a very important issue in terms of equity.

The Minister's argument in favour of redistributing resources does not hold true in the context of the regional technical college sector. The other group of students whom I believe will be affected by the means test will be the achiever types whose parents' income is just above the income limit for higher education grants and, therefore, their children do not qualify for higher education grants. Heretofore many of these students would have opted to pursue a course in a regional technical college or Dublin Institute of Technology institution which would have lead to a certificate and then a diploma. The net result of this change will be that more of these students will go to university and this will be to the detriment of the regional technical college and Dublin Institute of Technology institutions.

The Minister made great play of the Regional Technical Colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bills that were passed by this House, but the decision to subject the maintenance portion of the ESF grant to a means test will have a profound effect on student intake in the regional technical colleges.

Some of the students who attend a regional technical college and gain a diploma subsequently go on to university. While their child is attending the regional technical college, the parents and the student, if lucky enough to get employment during the summer, have the opportunity to save so that he or she can go on to university to study for a degree. This group will suffer because of the decision to means-test the ESF maintenance grants.

The Fine Gael motion states:

"That Dáil Éireann condemns:

(1) the discrimination against PAYE workers and their families in assessment of eligibility for third level education grants,

While the Minister must be given credit for substantially increasing income limits, it must be remembered that this favours everybody and not just the PAYE sector. However, I was asked to question how the income of the self-employed was assessed for higher education grant purposes. I asked the Minister of State, Deputy Aylward, to clarify how the local authorities, and the vocational education committees, treat the items that appear as "drawings" in the accounts of the self-employed.

If I understood the Minister of State correctly, he said that such "drawings" are seen as capital and not as income and are, therefore, not taken into consideration as income solely. The Minister should address this issue. If I am a self-employed business man and I draw out money from my business solely for my own use, surely that is not capital but is an income for me that should be taken into consideration if my child applies for a third level grant. It is more than a perception that PAYE workers are being discriminated against. The P60, which the PAYE worker gets at the end of the year, clearly states the person's income and the figures are virtually always accurate. However, this is not the same for the self-employed and those who are not in the PAYE sector. This problem cannot be solved by the Department of Education as it is a matter for the Revenue Commissioners, particularly the question of "drawings" which was brought to my attention.

What I understood the Minister of State to say earlier this evening was outrageous, that a self-employed person could draw substantial amounts from their business solely for their own use without those amounts of money being recognised as income.

The income thresholds of low-income families are referred to in the Fine Gael motion. I warmly welcome the moves made by the Minister in that regard. However, in the assessment of a person's eligibility for a grant or a subsidy from the State, is it not the actual amount of money that is received in the hand that really matters? Gross income is different. Ireland is a highly taxed country. Deputy Higgins cited the example of someone who contacted him in relation to this matter earlier today, an illustration which gave a flavour of the difference in real terms between gross income and net income.

Earlier in the year it was announced that an interdepartmental group was being set up to consider equity in relation to eligibility for higher education grants. I recall the Minister stating in the House that he hoped the group would report before 1 September and I also recall a subsequent statement that he hoped the group would report before then. The Minister has brought in welcome changes but I believe he would have served a better purpose had he made sure that the report of the interdepartmental group came sooner and that any changes made would be applied with the benefit of an overview of the entire position.

I have some personal sympathy with an interesting point that was raised regarding a tax free allowance for people who spend money on third level education. At present the parents or other relatives of a student can take out a deed of covenant on a particular student. As I understand the position, the deed of covenant relates to about 5 per cent of income, so essentially the better off one is the most one benefits from that tax concession.

I understand that you have agreed to share time, Deputy. Ba mhaith liom a chur in iúl go bhfuil dhá nóiméad fágtha agat féin.

An mbeidh cúig nóiméad fágtha don Teachta Gilmore?

Acting Chairman

Beidh, má chríochnaíonn tú ar cúig nóiméad chun a hocht.

Tá go maith, a Chathaoirligh.

The principle of tax relief for money spent by parents or relatives on students attending third level education is progressive but obviously it would have to be administered in a progressive way. I certainly would not advocate any measure that would result in outrageous payments being made to the very well off. Inside a certain level of income such a departure would be welcome and equitable.

In general, I support the thrust of the Fine Gael motion. As I have already said, it has been overtaken by events. In conclusion I wish to draw attention to my belief that assessment of grant eligibility should be made on net income. I do not mean to criticise the Minister's approach, which is progressive. The measure is welcome. However, it is on the actual income that accrues to a person, whether that person is a PAYE worker or is self-employed, that the criteria in relation to income limits should be based. Once that principle is established there are other options that can be considered.

I thank Deputy O'Shea for sharing his time with me. Like Deputy O'Shea, I welcome the increase in the eligibility limits for higher education grants, the extension of higher education grants to at least some mature students and other improvements that have been announced in the systems of student support. However, the Minister is behaving a little like the pupil who for the first time has got all of his sums right in that he has not stopped praising himself since making his announcement, and, as the Minister knows very well, self-praise is no praise. The Minister has pulled a stroke; in fact, he has pulled two strokes. He has pulled a political stroke by making his announcement in advance of today's day-long debate on student grants and he has pulled an administrative stroke by financing the improvements in the means test eligibility limits from the savings he will make in the means testing of the ESF grants.

The Minister made the invidious comparison between somebody who would earn £15,000 and somebody who would earn £50,000. I respectfully suggest that that is not the comparison the Minister will be asked to make. The Minister will be asked to make a comparison between what happened last year and what will happen next year for people who otherwise would be on ESF grants. For example, he will have a postal clerk who does one hour overtime per week and who last year could have sent a son or daughter to an ESF-funded course and have an ESF grant applied to that education, ask him why this year he or she will be over the eligibility limit for qualification of a student to a full grant. He will be asked why the sons and daughters of gardaí or of teachers who last year would have been able to qualify for an ESF grant will this year have their grants subjected to means testing and why the income limits of those parents will not enable their children to benefit from a full grant.

Earlier today in welcoming the increase in the eligibility limits I pointed out that those on modest incomes were still left unable to benefit from a full grant. I identified the categories of workers whose income would put them outside the eligibility limit. Staff officers in the Civil Service, teachers, gardaí, nurses and bank officials are hardly people in receipt of the kind of income mentioned by the Minister.

It is ironic that in announcing the improvements in the schemes the Minister is actually moving one step closer to a middle income revolt in this country. PAYE workers in receipt of modest, middle incomes, who pay very high tax and who get very little benefit back from the State, people who have to pay for everything they get, now see this Government whittling away the modest benefits that they did have. The Government are means testing ESF grants, have launched an attack on the insured social welfare system and the dental benefit is being whittled away. I believe that those earners, whose taxes are paying for the education system and for the upkeep of this State, are beginning to ask themselves what they are getting in return.

The Minister will be faced this autumn by a very disgruntled student body, many of whom will be sitting side by side with students who will benefit under the extension of the mature students grants and from the increase in the means test eligibility limits. Existing mature students will find that the new intake of students in October will benefit from the extension of the mature students grants and students already in the system will realise that they do not benefit from the increase in the means test eligibility limits. There is a long way to go before we will achieve the kind of equity and fairness in the higher education grants system that those of us in this House would wish to have.

I will be sharing my time with Deputy Callely. If Deputy M. Brennan returns we have agreed to share some of the time with him, but that will be a matter for Deputy Callely.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I compliment the Minister on yesterday's announcement. To Irish people generally education is one of the most important items on their agenda. It is a little sad that in Opposition the Fine Gael Party are very good at putting down motions on education but when they were in Government with the Labour Party the first Department to suffer from the axe were the Department of Education. However, that is to be expected. Also I accept that in Opposition their role is to say the Government are not doing a good job.

The Fine Gael Party have given a welcome of sorts to the Minister's announcement. Like many people I was delighted with that announcement. It is important to stress that 60 per cent of our students will receive grants. While 40 per cent may not be in receipt of grants, I believe the means test should be applied. Where people are fortunate enough to have means large enough to allow them educate their children they should not begrudge others the grants. Some farmers with very big farms and large incomes——

They get the student grant.

Yes, they get the grants, but there should be a means test in relation to maintenance. That is just. We have probably the highest percentage of third level students of any country in Europe. I understand one third of our population have been in third level education. We may have a problem employing our people at home but at least Irish people who leave home are well educated. They are no longer the hewers of wood and drawers of water.

Many of them are.

Many of them are in countries without the proper documentation. I should like to tell Deputy Gilmore that 35 per cent of the chief executives of the top 500 American companies are Irish or of Irish descent or Irish extraction. The Irish are doing very well. At least we send them out well equipped and we will continue to do that.

I see nothing wrong with means-testing particularly when students come from homes where there are adequate means. I have always felt sorry for the middle income group who must pay for everything. Deputy Gilmore is referring to deprived, poor people. The poor are benefiting best out of this. Deputy Gilmore is probably blue in the face hearing that instead of the 33 per cent increase in income thresholds requested in the Fine Gael motion, which they regarded as pretty generous, we have given a 40 per cent and 50 per cent increase. That is excellent.

We are not in the business of gloating. The Minister has had an opportunity to examine the scheme carefully. It will continue to cost us money. He mentioned that it might cost an extra £4 million this year alone, but, nevertheless, it is to be welcomed. The Fine Gael Party should agree to withdraw their motion in favour of our amendment.

Is the Deputy serious?

I am serious. Why not say this is good and put enough pressure on us to make the advances they would like? Their approach is somewhat redundant at this stage.

The number of full time students has increased enormously. When I was elected to the Dáil in 1965 the figure was in the region of £20,000 full-time students. By the mid-nineties we will have about £95,000 full-time students, at a time when funding will be fairly short due to the high amounts of money we need to pay out on social welfare because of high unemployment. At the moment we are enduring the tragedy that, while technology has improved, our exports are increasing and our growth rates are greater than those in most EC countries, they are not being translated into employment. We are examining this carefully. We have a highly skilled, highly motivated workforce. I am glad the country voted "Yes" in the recent referendum. That will encourage companies in the US, Japan and elsewhere to establish plants here.

There is not much sign of that yet.

If this country had voted "No" the IDA could have closed their offices abroad the following day because not a soul would make an inquiry about Ireland. Thank God the good sense of the people prevailed, as I predicted.

There is a genuine belief in the inherent value of education in Irish history and in Irish people which has been reflected in Fianna Fáil Governments in their strong commitment to the pursuit of learning undeterred by financial difficulties. The exchanges about the French system remind me of an old French proverb which I will not try to express in French, because my diction in that language is not the best, but in simple English. The proverb states that the more things change the more they remain the same.

Ireland has been a sovereign independent State for most of this century and has enjoyed membership of the EC since 1973. It has made a contribution in line with this long tradition to the development of Community policies in the field of education. The Government side look forward to participating fully in the increased level of Community activity in education which will ensue following on the acceptance of the European Treaty. What remains the same is the sure prospect of financial sacrifice for those who wish their children to pursue education and secure third level qualifications. The recent history of Irish education demonstrates clearly that the proportion of such people continues to grow year by year. Lest there be misunderstanding, I should like to record that I welcome this increase unreservedly. However, this expansion has implications especially at second and third levels. It has put additional strain on already limited resources. This is particularly noticeable at third level which has experienced an increase of 60 per cent in student numbers in the past ten years. Further growth is projected in the next four or five years. This will bring our participating rates in full time third level education into favourable comparison with those of some of our most affluent Community partners.

Against this background it was timely and prudent for the Government to undertake a full review of the schemes of financial support for third level students. The main objectives of the review were to ensure equity in the different schemes and, to the extent that it was practicable and affordable, to address the particular financial pressures on students from lower to middle income families.

Deputy Gilmore and other speakers referred to the status of parents who would no longer be able to avail of grants. They also talked about the lower and middle income groups, the high numbers of unemployed and how these people would be disadvantaged. I think it has long been accepted in this House that every effort should be made to make third level education available to any student capable of taking full advantage of it, another way of saying that no student should be denied access to third level education on the sole grounds of inability to pay. I am sure all Members would accept that on the grounds of social equity.

We have also been uncomfortably aware for some time that the income eligible limits applying to third level grant schemes were unacceptable, which meant that students might be forced to refuse an offer of a third level place because they could not afford it. The main focus of the reforms introduced by the Government were well covered by the Minister today and we are all aware of the alterations in the income guidelines, which are welcome. As Deputy Briscoe said, 60 per cent of our students will now be covered by grants. The Opposition criticise but they do not have any answers. Deputy Gilmore wants everybody to avail of grants but then he referred to certain classes.

The second focus of the reform which is very welcome is in relation to the linking of tax assessment by the PAYE workers and the self-employed which will vindicate their claim that the current assessment procedure — particularly in relation to the self-employed — meant that they had an unfair advantage. As the Minister pointed out, means-testing is an essential instrument of an equitable resource allocation. The fact that non-means tested grants were available to ESF students represented an anomaly which had to be addressed on the grounds of equity. However, I fully accept that there will be disappointment among some students and parents. Nevertheless the long term effect of the decision will mean greater equity in the different student support schemes. I am confident that people inside and outside the House will, in due course, concede that the basis of good sense and fairness is enshrined in this new approach.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy's time is up and, according to the order of the House, I am obliged to call the Fine Gael speaker. I am now calling Deputy Nealon.

I have one minute in which to speak.

Acting Chairman

I do not think that the Deputy has one minute.

I welcome the Minister's decision to dramatically increase the student support grant from £10,000 to £15,000. Under the new arrangement families with one to three children will qualify for a full fee and maintenance grants on an income of £15,000 which is a substantial increase on the previous income limit of £10,787. The same family will be eligible for a full fee grant if they have an income under £18,000 and to 50 per cent of grants if they have an income up to £19,000. These new measures announced by the Minister will mean that a larger number of middle income families will qualify. However, for the first time factory workers will be in a position to send their children to universities.

Acting Chairman

I must abide by the order of the House. As it is past 8.15 p.m. I am obliged to call the Fine Gael speaker, Deputy Nealon.

I should like to share my time with Deputy Jim Higgins.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am sorry that Deputy Brennan did not have more time because I know his intention was to severely criticise the Minister for Education for means testing ESF grants — and rightly so.

The Deputy is wrong. I congratulate the Minister for the measures he introduced.

Sligo Regional Technical College is in the heart of my constituency and its catchment area is Sligo, Leitrim, part of Mayo and Donegal and north Roscommon. Nowhere have the ESF maintenance grants, as at present administered, been more significant both in the build up of the college and in making available the opportunity of third level education to large numbers of students who would otherwise have been forced to opt out, than in this area. Nothing the Minister said will alleviate the problem being created, in particular for Sligo Regional Technical College, by the introduction of means-testing maintenance grants, welcome as the increases are, in the third level limits. The success of Sligo college has been an important factor in the economy of the whole north-west region, in particular in the attraction of industry. The graduates forced to emigrate — the region has the highest emigration rates in the whole country — went with very valuable education and skills, equal to anything they encountered in their own age groups in the host countries.

The means test will result in up to 60 per cent of all future students and those changing courses losing out. Some will be deprived of the grant, some will get partial grants while others will get nominal grants. As we heard earlier from Deputy Higgins, the PAYE workers will get nominal grants. As we heard earlier from Deputy Higgins, the PAYE workers will be the worst hit. The harsh reality is that in many parts of the Sligo regional technical college area — in the other regional technical colleges and I am sure in Dublin Institute of Technology areas also — many parents will have to tell their sons and daughters that they must forget about their plans for third level education if the Minister persists in means testing ESF grants.

It is a fair and equitable system.

Sligo Regional Technical College and others have been particularly successful in attracting students from farming and manual workers backgrounds, leaving a very balanced socioeconomic student body profile. All this is at risk. I have spoken about the damage the new means testing decision will do to the educational pattern and prospects in the Sligo regional technical college catchment area, the one I know best. I am sure it will not be much different in any other part of the country. All over the country there are students who have done their leaving certificates and whose educational fate will be decided by this ESF decision, irrespective of how well they did in the examination. When I talk about their education fate I am talking about whether they go on to third level, that is how serious it is for many of them.

The decision to introduce the means test for ESF maintenance grants for students of regional technical colleges is a big mistake, a retrograde step. It is a decision which will cause major hardship for many families and put third level education beyond the reach of many more families. As I outlined, it will have extraordinary and serious implications for the Sligo Regional Technical College which has been built up to a great extent on the ESF grants system, grants which were not means tested. Most of the college's 1,188 students benefit from those grants. The Minister is now delivering a body blow to that system which has been of vital importance to Sligo.

First, I thank Deputies from all sides who contributed to this debate, those who agreed and those who disagreed with the thrust of the motion.

We did not get very long.

We gave the Deputy one minute, which is more than his colleague gave him.

The notion of a tax free allowance, as advanced by Deputy Therese Ahearn, has much to commend it. I am talking not alone about the people who are over the limit, but about those who are marginally above it. I gave the example of a person with four children, earning £20,000 per year but who will not qualify for any third level grant. A tax free allowance of £3,000 — £30 to £40 a week net — would enable that person to send his or her children to third level education.

I thank Deputy McGrath for validating various case histories — the member of the Garda Síochána, the lorry driver and so on, who will have to turn down any overtime that may be available in order to artificially come within the guidelines set by the Minister. By and large, I agree with the principle of means-testing but I make no apology for singling out the regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology colleges for special consideration. They are still in the embryonic stage, reasonably new innovations. They are providing the kind of education recommended in the Culliton report and envisaged in the Maastricht Treaty: if we are to go forward with industrial policies here we will have to discriminate positively in favour of that type of education. These colleges need a further boost. As Deputy O'Shea said, by discriminating in favour of those colleges i.e. by way of the provision of ESF grants, top level students who would have gone otherwise to the universities, pursued courses in the regional technical colleges. If the ESF grants are taken from those colleges there will be a mass movement from the regional technical colleges in Waterford, Tralee, Sligo and Letter-kenny to the perceived prestige places, the universities. Unfortunately that is still the attitude towards universities in our society.

The Minister made the point about not treating this as something to do with money from Europe. Europe must be laughing all the way to the bank as we are the only country that means tests ESF grants. Furthermore, the Minister is flatly contradicting a point made by his colleague, the Minister of State, regarding the provision of money for third level grants. The Minister made the point that the reason ESF grants for mature students, which were introduced on 1 January 1991, were made retrospective was that it was money from Europe. Now he is saying we cannot say this has something to do with money from Europe. I would make the point in relation to grants, tax allowances, and so on, that it is much the same principle as the child benefit allowance, you take your chances. Sometimes you are discriminating in favour of people in the very high income level but, by and large, you are targeting the people who need the benefit most. I defy any Minister for Social Welfare to take away the child benefit allowance from the mothers of this country.

Do not tempt him.

I welcome the contributions from Deputies O'Shea and Gilmore. Deputy Gilmore, in particular, put his finger on the problem. While the Minister has, in the short term, gained certain kudos by the announcement yesterday of the increased thresholds, he is, in fact, transferring resources; he is robbing Peter to pay Paul. He is taking European Social Fund moneys from middle income parents, and transferring it to other sectors. If we do not redress the imbalance as it affects the middle income PAYE sector — we are not doing it with this measure — we are inviting them to revolt.

I thank Deputies Briscoe. Callely Mattie Brennan and Nealon for their contributions but in particular, I thank the people who telephoned me to say they have noticed the transparency in what the Minister is embarking on. The fact that this House has debated third level grants twice in four months, and that the Seanad has debated them in the same period, emphasises how high this issue is on the political agenda. The announcement yesterday of increased thresholds will mean that thousands will be excluded. If the income thresholds are increased by another £5,000, it will still be a question of so near and yet so far for many people.

Yesterday's announcement makes a meal of tightening up the system and involves the Revenue Commissioners and the further threat of penalties. I would point out to the Minister that penalties already exist in that attached to the current higher education grant form is a sworn affidavit. The change will not make a single, solitary difference. Unfortunately, affidavits mean very little to the majority of people. Creative accounting is very much the order of the day and as long as accounts are certified there is nothing local authorities can do about them. It is another case of the practice being far removed from the theory.

There is need for overall analysis and reform of the various systems. The higher education grants scheme is administered by the county councils and the European Social Fund grants scheme is administered by the nine regional technical colleges and Dublin Institute of Technology colleges. The vocational education committee scheme is administered by the vocational education committees. In regard to the PLCs, the ESF grants apply to fees only and today we are passing the local authorities higher education grants scheme. As series of relief measures were announced by the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Davern, and further measures were announced by the Minister in the interim. Then there is yesterday's announcement. In reality, our third level grants system is anad hoc one that has grown over the years. Essentially, it is an inconsistent anomaly-ridden patchwork that is in need of fundamental reform and reappraisal.

The Green Paper, published 12 days ago, is a discussion document to launch a nationwide debate on all aspects of education. Chapter 8 deals with higher education, new admission procedures, credit accumulation and transfer, postgratuate work, research, quality assurance, course development, length of courses and of academic year. It deals also with funding arrangements of a capital nature, management structures, coordination in the university and non-university sectors, the role of the Higher Education Authority and the Council for Educational and Vocational Awards. It is supposed to be a comprehensive discussion document, yet there is not one syllable in it about student grant aid. There is no mention in the Green Paper about means-testing or otherwise. I have no doubt that, in response to his invitation, the Minister will receive many submissions and that he will be inundated with submissions on means-testing.

I am disappointed that the Minister has not deferred the ESF means-testing proposal until such time as he may receive some such submission. I am equally disappointed that he has not adjudged the Educational Social and Research Institute a competent agency to prepare an overall picture of the third level grants scheme. The Minister's approach to European social funding is wrong. One group should not be pulled down in order to push another group up. We should not be going for the lowest common denominator but for the highest one. We should not be making the pitch more unplayable for all; we should be levelling it. We should be sending a message to Europe that it has failed to provide us with jobs and opportunities. If we are to provide a conveyor belt for top quality third level students the least the EC should be asked to do is to pick up the tab.

Finally, who will administer the scheme? I would like the Minister to take cognisance of the warnings from IMPACT. I do not believe that the new means-testing proposal is workable. I am sorry the Minister did not avail of the opportunity in the context of the Green Paper and of this debate to allow the ESRI carry out a global analysis. If he had done so he would have left his name etchedad infinitum in Irish education.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 46.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Collins, Ger.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheal.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
Barr
Roinn