With the permission of the House I propose to share my time with Deputy Máirín Quill.
Private Members' Business. - Criminal Justice (No. 2) Bill, 1993: Second Stage.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Is that satisfactory? Agreed.
I thank the House for not opposing the First Reading of this Bill, thereby giving us an opportunity to have it debated in Private Members' Time. Before I deal specifically with this long overdue measure which seeks to update criminal law and order to allow it to deal effectively with the epidemic of crime prevalent in society I want to pay tribute to Garda Agnes Reddy for her painstaking and caring investigative work in uncovering the dreadful treatment of a 27 year old County Kilkenny girl by her father. I pay tribute to the garda for rescuing that girl from the nightmare of sexual and physical abuse to which she had been subjected. If it is possible to honour Garda Reddy in any way for her efforts, we should ensure that is done. In saying that I think I speak for all Members of the House and for the community at large. Never has a case so shocked, horrified and upset so many people, not just women and young girls but men also, as has this one. We owe a great debt of gratitude to the garda concerned.
Ireland has become a society of home alarms, steel shuttered businesses, neighbourhood watch and community alert areas, all desperate moves by a society under siege from the epidemic of crime and vandalism that is making people prisoners in their own homes and seriously undermining public confidence in the capacity of the State to maintain the basic elements of law and order in our society. Successive Governments, particularly Ministers for Justice, belie this reality by maintaining that crime is under control or that the incidence of particular crimes is decreasing. To the extent that crime figures are falling it is simply because people are increasingly losing confidence in even reporting crime, particularly crimes whereby their property is interfered with or stolen from their homes, because they know, unfortunately, that the chances of the culprits being found are negligible.
There are various reasons for the deterioration of law and order in our society. There can be no doubt that there are major socio-economic factors involved, particularly the problem of poverty which stems from mass unemployment. There are also the glamour demands and appetites stimulated by our consumer society. There is a breakdown in values such as parental responsibility, family cohesion and individual responsibility for one's behaviour. In addition, our laws are totally out of date. The net effect of all these and other factors is a serious imbalance between the rights of the ordinary citizen and the virtual impunity now enjoyed by people intent on criminal behaviour.
The Progressive Democrats believe it is time to cry stop to this perversion of rights. We believe it is time to effectively restore safety and security of home and property to every citizen. It is about time the Garda were given effective powers to tackle the criminal, the thug, the unruly gangs and individuals, and to enable them to effectively carry out the job they are charged with doing.
It must be one of the first duties of any civilised democratic state to uphold law and order and to ensure the personal safety and property rights of every citizen. In this context we have brought forward this measure to address a series of particular defects in our criminal law. We have done so because the existing law for dealing with matters such as riotous and unlawful behaviour and tackling racketeering and demands for protection money is, in part, 150 years old. Much of the relevant law in this area goes back to the Dublin Police Act, 1842. In our period in Government, and through the Programmes for Government negotiated in 1989 and 1991, we sought to commence the codifying and updating of the criminal law, but unfortunately we got a negative response.
The Bill — I will outline its provisions shortly — does not deal with all the defects in criminal law, nor could it. It seeks to deal with a number of specific matters, matters that refer to public order. It seeks to reform our criminal law in respect of certain public order offences and to put certain common law offences onto a statutory basis. In relation to violence in public places the Bill creates a number of offences of graduated seriousness from riot to affray. It creates a new offence of unlawful loitering in public places. It gives local authorities power to regulate behaviour in specified public places in their functional area such as streets, laneways, open spaces and so on. The Bill gives new statutory powers to the Garda to enforce the law by power of arrest in relation to public order infringements.
Before dealing with the specific provisions of the Bill I will refer to the Minister's comments in the Dáil last week when answering questions to her Department. She went to great lengths to tell us that the latest crime figures indicate a decrease in crime and that if there is not a sufficient number of gardaí on the streets resources would be made available for that purpose. She also said she would accelerate the level of recruitment to the Garda. There are approximately 800 fewer gardaí on the streets at present, at a time when we all agree the incidence of crime has increased out of all proportion, than was the case in the mid-eighties. On the Minister's own admission, given the retirement figures for this year of approximately 400 gardaí and the level of recruitment which is about 200, there will continue to be for the foreseeable future fewer gardaí than was the case in the mid and late eighties when the incidence of crime certainly was not as great as it is today.
I said earlier that there are many socio-economic and other reasons that crime is so serious and I do not wish to take from them in any way but a two-pronged approach is needed to deal with crime. We need the fire brigade measures I am proposing to introduce this evening and we need a slower, more gradual approach which I accept takes perhaps generations to bear fruit, particularly as regards dealing with young offenders given that almost 40 per cent of crime is committed by juveniles. I accept that to deal with that matter in a preventive way would be much slower and would not bear fruit for perhaps a generation.
However I would say to the Minister of State that money spent and decisions made now will bear fruit. Considering that it costs £65,000 a year to keep one young person in Trinity House all of us must realise that it is in our financial interest as much as in our security interest to ensure that we apply the resources to combat crime in an effective manner. In that regard I am pleased that the Garda Síochána is about to employ some new research facilities. Although we may have many reports about the defects in the system more research needs to be undertaken, particularly into the incidence of juvenile crime, pinpointing the specific causes and outlining the measures that might lead to success in the future. I welcome the proposal in this regard.
I said earlier that the first duty of the State is to protect public order. The State claims a monopoly to use force. The media attention and the recent concern in the community is not just as a result of hype by a small group. It is very real when people are afraid to use public transport, to walk down the street where they live or to cross a footbridge at night. This is a very serious crime problem. Most people accept that the balance is now very much in favour of the criminal. The Garda accept that, and they have become virtually helpless. The community feel that it is hopeless. Above all else, we in this House have a responsibility to provide the kind of laws that can give the Garda and the public the kind of reassurance they need that their personal safety will not be put at undue risk.
The civil liberties of every person are very important. When one talks about stronger powers for the Garda, longer prison sentences, more uniformity in prison sentencing and more custodial places for those who commit serious crime, it is assumed that this is a right wing reaction from somebody who is not concerned about civil liberties. We can only show our real concern for civil liberties when we can show that ordinary citizens are free and feel safe walking down the street at a reasonable hour of the day or night. Without that assurance the ordinary person does not have civil liberties. Our laws can ensure that we take care of those taken into custody and those who are questioned by the Garda, that appropriate procedures are in place and that, where there are miscarriages of justice, we can put them right and pay the compensation necessary. That does not contradict the policy of having tough sentences to deal with the kind of problems I have outlined.
For as long as crime pays criminals will engage in it. There are far too many people in our society who have had a lifetime of crime. It is a full-time job. I realise that in many cases people engage in crime in order to feed a serious drug habit. Garda sources estimate that there are about 1,500 serious drug abusers in Ireland at the moment and they tell me that that habit costs between £40 and £60 a day. To feed the habit, the addict steals money, robs a handbag or carries out a burglary. If he is caught and is in possession of drugs when taken to the Garda station, the drugs are taken away and the addict is charged; the next morning he is out on bail and goes back to the same habit again. It is a vicious circle. I accept that there were 43,000 visits last year to Trinity Court in Pearse Street but that service is not a sufficient response to the drug problem. Until we have an adequate response to that drug problem we will have the vicious circle of people out on bail or out of jail having to get £40 or £60 a day to feed the habit.
Section 1 of this Bill is the short title and citation section. Section 2 puts the offence of rioting on to a modern statutory basis with powers of arrest. The Bill defines rioting as where 12 or more persons carry out threats or unlawful violence and convince a reasonable person that his personal safety is in danger. We are proposing that the penalty for that offence should be up to ten years or a fine or both. The Garda will be given powers of arrest without a warrant. Section 3 creates a lesser offence where there are between three and 12 persons involved in similar behaviour. The penalty for that is up to five years or a fine or both, with the same powers of arrest being given to the Garda Síochána. Section 4 replaces the criminal law offence of affray with a modern statutory offence and it relates to one person being involved. In relation to these three offences the powers that we are suggesting here are similar to the powers being given in the British Public Order Act, 1986, in intent and in suggested penalties.
Section 5 introduces a new offence of unlawful loitering and it gives the Garda the power to disperse and prevent persons from unlawful loitering in public places. This is of particular significance in many urban areas. We know from many communities that gangs of youths, sometimes as few as two or three people, can hang around a bus stop or a public place and terrorise people. I know from my contacts in suburban Dublin that people have to travel home at reasonably early hours of the evening by taxi because they are afraid of gangs that hang around bus stops and so on. The Garda are powerless to act at the moment. Despite the recommendation of the Law Reform Commission in their Report No. 11 we need to introduce a new offence of loitering.
Section 6 creates a new offence of criminal trespass. It is proposed that where somebody is found in suspicious circumstances, for example, if somebody is found in the DPP's office reading files or is found in a bank or in an office of any kind for no particular reason in suspicious circumstances they can be charged with criminal trespass.
Section 7 introduces a new offence of racketeering. The purpose of this is to criminalise acts of blackmail and protection rackets with regard to business. This is a very serious problem in urban areas, particularly in Dublin. As the Minister of State may be aware a very young businessman in Dublin has just come out of hospital, having been shot by what the Garda believe is a criminal gang, because he refused to pay protection money. It is a disgrace that it is not an offence to pay protection money and that we do not have adequate laws to deal with racketeering. As early as the 1960s in the US authorities introduced very tough measures to deal with racketeering. This crime is placing a dreadful burden on business people many of whom cannot get insurance because their premises are constantly being burned and their windows being broken or they are being burgled. They are being terrorised and being intimidated by well organised Dublin gangs. Despite the best efforts of the Garda through surveillance and otherwise under existing legislation, it has not been possible in recent years to bring the leaders of some of these gangs to justice. It is causing great distress to many people. It is putting their businesses, their lives and their families in grave danger.
Section 8 of the Bill creates an offence of possessing material or information for the purposes of committing an indictable offence. It would cover the possession of disguises, detailed plans of buildings such as banks and notes of victims' movements and so on. Proof of the exact nature of the indictable offence is relaxed where possession of the items is clearly related to the commission of some indicatable offence. It is extraordinary that gardaí can come upon a group casing a bank for what they know is a robbery and can find all the documentation in relation to particular details about a bank and the activities of the bank manager or whatever and yet that is not an offence at the moment.
Section 9 gives local authorities the power to introduce prohibition orders to prevent people loitering around back lanes, parks, laneways and so on. This is an important power. In many urban areas, these famous laneways are a source of a lot of trouble and crime because gangs and individuals constantly hang around them. They are a source of nuisance to the community. Why should a resident of a corner house have to put up with constantly having people loitering around intimidating him?
Section 10 gives the Garda the permanent power to put in surveillance equipment, video cameras and so on in public places with a view to investigating crime. It is proposed that this power be given to the Garda subject to the approval of the local authority who can revoke the power at any time. This is not unreasonable.
I am concerned about the Minister's approach to the serious crime that has occurred in certain parts of suburban Dublin and in O'Connell Street. The view tends to be taken that if crime becomes prevalent in some streets the solution is to deploy more uniformed gardaí there. That is often the cry from the community but what happens is that when more uniformed gardaí are deployed the criminal activity moves to another area. It is similar to a business situation where products can be easily stolen. The owners of the business instal camera equipment to catch the culprits, it becomes known that in business X there is a possibility of being caught and so the criminals move to another business. Instead of deploying 50 or 60 uniformed gardaí to police the streets — I accept this measure may make the public feel more secure — it is much more important and would be more effective if crime could be targeted to ascertain who the culprits are. That can only be done through underground surveillance methods by non-uniformed gardaí penetrating those areas where crime is rampant. I have strong views on this matter. I have spoken to many gardaí about it and they hold the same view. The Garda view the deployment of uniformed gardaí, gardaí to be seen walking up and down the street, as a PR type response to an immediate problem but it is not a long term or effective one.
We could continue to debate this matter forever. It is of concern to all Members of this House as the balance has been turned around because almost all people or members of their families have experienced in recent years what they would regard as a serious crime. Such crimes may include motor car thefts, house break-ins or personal attacks. As the level of crime is so high the community feels that politicians must legislate for stronger measures to combat crime and give the Garda stronger powers. Deploying extra gardaí will not be a sufficient measure if it is not accompanied by giving them powers.
I accept in the short term that it will not be possible to increase the number of gardaí but the Minister might consider extending the Garda retirement age, from 57 to 60, as was done on two previous occasions. This year 400 gardaí will retire while about 200 will be recruited. That will mean a further deterioration in numbers. One per cent of the Garda pay bill is allocated to pensions. It would cost approximately half a garda's salary in pension terms to keep a garda in the force, who would otherwise be retiring, and more importantly more experienced members would be retained.
As has been the case in Britain and other European countries, we also need to examine the possibility of bringing in some voluntary assistance for the Garda Síochána. There are many retired people who would be pleased to work on specific tasks assisting the Garda Síochána in a voluntary capacity. Such assistance would free up many gardaí to participate in protection and detection work.
I hope that in line with all the change we have been talking about, in regard to broadening our democracy and to Dáil reform, the Government will accept this Bill and not oppose it on Second Stage. The Minister of State, who is a lawyer, is aware that our law is seriously outdated in many respects. Our criminal law is urgently in need of being codified and updated. When parties go to the bother of preparing Private Members' Bills — I am not suggesting this is a perfect Bill but it can be worked on — I hope they will not be opposed on Second Stage. On the contrary, I hope the Government will give encouragement to the introduction of Private Members' Bills by not opposing them on Second Stage and allowing them to proceed to final stage and become law. The measures in this Bill are reasonable in the serious circumstances in which we live. They are measures that are demanded by the enforcement authorities and ones that would be supported by most reasonable people at this time.
If a survey was carried out today and people asked what were the two concerns uppermost in their minds, I am sure the finding would show that the first would be unemployment and the second the rising crime rate and breakdown in law and order. It is true in some cases, though not in all, that there is a direct link between the two. It is true also that there is an obligation on all of us to address those concerns, particularly the problem of teenage crime, to address that by way of our social legislation — by the provision of better educational, recreational and housing facilities. I am sure those issues will be addressed in the forthcoming and long promised juvenile Justice Bill. There is an obligation on us, as legislators, to put in place the kind of law that protects our citizens, even in times of high unemployment. We can no longer hide behind those who seek solely to find explanations or excuses for the rising rate of crime, vandalism and lawlessness; that is not enough any more. There is an obligation on all of us to find solutions to those problems. There is a specific and direct obligation on all of us here to put in place a law that will deal effectively with the rising rate of crime, vandalism and lawlessness and make this once again a country where we can all live — as the Taoiseach said on the day he took up office — at peace with one another. That is a fine aspiration but it is a long way from reality. It is the first duty of any democratic state to protect the lives and property of its citizens. Article 40.2º of the Constitution states that:
The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.
If I were to read that Article to those whose houses have been repeatedly broken into, whose property has been stolen and who have waited in vain for a thorough investigation of those crimes or any return of their property, they would fully acknowledge that the aspirations of our Constitution are very much at variance with the reality of life today. Indeed, the reality for a great many people and the view they have of law and order in this country, is that in too many cases crime goes unpunished and the victim is not compensated. That is the area we are trying to address in the context of this Bill. We are trying to put in place a law that will address newly emerging nuisances, menaces and threats of all kinds to the wellbeing and peace of our citizens and to the protection of persons and property.
The overall objective of this Bill is to put in place law that will restore some semblance of civilisation to our streets, our housing estates, to public parks and other public places. The relentless breakdown in public order in such places and the growth in threatening, menacing and criminal behaviour has reduced the quality of life and peace of mind of our citizens and has made life a misery for so many, particularly the old and the frail, women living on their own and young people.
It is not long since the women of Ireland were forced to march the streets in public protest to, as they put it, reclaim their streets, thereby giving a message to the legislators that they wanted put in place the kind of law that would make the streets of our towns, cities and villages safe to walk in at night. That was a very modest request but one that has not yet been met. It was a deep cry from the heart of our female citizens for some action, the type of action we are proposing in the context of this Bill. The behaviour of rowdy, boisterous gangs collecting in housing estates and driving terror into the hearts of families, many of whom now are forced to lock their doors at night and are rendered, as Deputy Harney said, prisoners in their own homes. That behaviour must and is being addressed in the context of this Bill. I know a number of young people who are precluded from attending night classes — a very basic right — because they are afraid to return home on their own or in small groups. They are afraid to travel by public transport because there are small gangs lurking in corners, waiting to confront them and to strike terror into their hearts; many cannot afford to take taxis.
What care do we have for the civil liberties of such people? What civil liberties have young people who cannot attend night classes because they are afraid to go out on their own? What civil liberties have people who are forced to lock their doors from the inside at nightfall and remain inside, prisoners of their own homes, afraid to go down to the local shop for a bottle of milk or a newspaper after dark? What are we doing to restore their civil liberties? These are the issues that concern our party.
The general response to the breakdown of law and order invariably is calls for more gardaí on the street as it will cure all ills. In the case of loitering and gang behaviour, a fairly modern phenomenon, all the gardaí in the world would not cure it. Simply put, the gardaí do not have the power to disperse those gangs or remove them from bus stops, street corners, housing estates or many places where they congregate to strike terror into the hearts of ordinary citizens. This Bill seeks to give such power to the Garda so that we will not be asking the Garda on the one hand to control these gangs and, on the other hand, tying their hands behind their backs by not giving them powers to do so. The Garda will have to be given the power to move on those people. Those young people must be given the option either to go home, take themselves off the street, or accompany a garda to the station to account for their behaviour. That is the only way to deal with the problem.
I am not saying that the Garda, even with those enhanced powers, can deal with the problem successfully. There is a need for a response from parents, particularly in the case of young people. Parents will have to be required by law to take some responsibility for the behaviour of their children. Where children offend parents will have to be required in law to involve themselves in the rehabilitation of their children so that young people can be diverted from taking the first step to what may lead to a lifetime of crime. One good deterrent — from the experience of my childhood — is to have in place a law that addresses the problem directly. The implications for those who break that law should be communicated to young people. They should know how far they can go and the line beyond which they cannot cross.
It is important also that education should immediately address the problems of vandalism, petty crime and lawlessness. There is a remarkable absence of the teaching of civics in our schools. Many young people have no sense of identification with many of the public buildings in their cities, their villages or in their communities. They do not realise that these buildings are theirs, that they were erected for them and that they, in turn, have an obligation to protect them and pass them on to the next generation. That is no longer an inbuilt part of their education. That will have to be addressed if we are to get young people away from those practices which are making life difficult for so many people.
I do not know if the Bill requires to address the question of damage by vandals to public buildings, such as schools and public libraries. In many cities persistent attacks on schools are leading to enormous insurance costs. This money which could be better spent on building recreation centres or public libraries for young people, is being spent on restoring and repairing the damage done by vandals. We have got it all wrong, we must start all over again and put in place the laws and the system that will help prevent this type of carry on and will, as Deputy Harney said, make this country a place of which people can be proud and where tourists can walk the streets of our cities, and public parks without fear of attack.
We must reclaim our public parks for the general public, for whom they were provided and not leave them for rowdy gangs who have taken them over. Elderly citizens like to sit and linger and speak with each other in those parks. We must introduce the laws that will restore those parks to the purpose for which they were originally provided.
The Bill should be one of a series of initiatives to solve the problems. I ask this House, and the Minister in particular, to take on board the provisions of the Bill. Very often it happens in life, and in law, that the simple solutions are best. We should not allow ourselves to be like Hamlet, "sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought", waiting for something better to turn up. While we are waiting much havoc is being visited on decent law abiding citizens. We should not allow that to happen. At the start of a new Dáil we should grapple with the problem. We have the basis of good law in this Bill. If it is passed without too much delay and if resources are made for the implementation of its provisions we can look forward to a better life for our citizens. If that is not done the position will get worse rapidly and the legislators of this generation will have a case to answer. I hope that will not happen.
I welcome any opportunity I get to debate the problem——
May I ask for a quorum?
I do not think a quorum is required.
The Chair is correct.
I should have known that and so too should Deputy Molloy.
Deputy Molloy will recall that in the past the less reputable Members of every party were asked to call a quorum because it was not the dignified thing to do but times change and standards change.
I note the absence of the Deputy's new friends.
Deputy Molloy looks very well on that side of the House. He probably feels more comfortable there than he ever did on this side of the House.
Let us get back to the debate on the Bill
Deputy Briscoe is right. We are much more comfortable on this side of the House and the Deputy need have no doubt about that.
For our part, we are more comfortable too, particularly without Deputy O'Malley. I wish to share my time with Deputy Dan Wallace.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
It was a good job the Deputy mentioned that he wished to share his time.
I always welcome an opportunity to debate law and order in this House and for that reason I welcome this Bill. However, the movers of the Bill know full well that the Minister has almost completed legislation, made up to some degree of the suggestions put forward by the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism. While this Bill is useful in many ways it only deals in a partial way with some of the major law and order problems in our land.
While very often we express ourselves in different ways, our thoughts are the same. One of the expressions I have alway used when debating issues of law and order is that people should have the right to walk through the streets of their cities, towns and villages without fear of attack. Unfortunately, nothing has changed in that respect. I am on record during the seventies as stating that "the hooligans of today will be the gunmen of the eighties". That has been borne out. The hooligans of the eighties will be the gunmen of the nineties and so on.
Our society has sunk to such a worrying level of depravity in terms of the kinds of attacks being perpetrated against citizens that our judges need to be given some form of training so that there is some consistency in sentencing. Members of the public will tell you they are disgusted at the sentences given to some criminals. The person sentenced for six or seven years for the dreadful incestuous rape of his daughter should have got two years for every year of misery, agony and pain he inflicted on that young person. Sadly, there is no justice in our legal system. Something has to be done about that.
I wish to refer to the intimidation of witnesses. Sometimes people from my constituency who want to go to court to give evidence but who are afraid to do so ask me what they should do. I tell them that they must go to court so that the culprits may not go free. However, even as I tell them this I fear for them and hope nothing happens to them because if it should I would feel in some way responsible. In cases of intimidation and in cases where people who give evidence are afraid of revenge attacks, we should provide by way of legislation that there is a tripling of the sentence for someone who is subsequently found to be guilty of such conduct. We hear much about civil liberties but the civil liberties of the victims of crime do not seem to come into the equation at all.
It has been argued in some quarters that the severity of a sentence should be greater if the victim is an older person but I would not differentiate between older and younger victims. Young people who are brutally attacked on their way home after a night out are entitled to the same justice as an older person might expect. In my discussions with them over the years, the Garda have told me about the frustration they experience in endeavouring to move people on. There is a need for a loitering Act. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a need for legislation which would empower the Garda to move people who are sitting on walls drinking cider. In this regard, the Act which was introduced to deal with abuses of cider drinking has been found to be flawed in many respects.
The cost of keeping young people in prison, £2,000 or £3,000 a week or whatever, has become almost a deterrent to putting people away. There is plenty of room in the Curragh to open up an Army type camp——
There is plenty of room on the Aran Islands also.
I beg your pardon.
There are decent people living on the Aran Islands——
There are decent people living in the Curragh also.
——and we would want to make sure they were safe. These criminals should be taken off the streets and sent to Army type camps. I think Deputy McGahon and I agree very much on the type of measures which should be taken: we are very compassionate people but we are on the side of the victim.
Have a large brandy.
Perhaps we will have one later. As of now, there are people loitering in the Phoenix Park. These people do not intend to rob people; they go there to pick up young boys. I understand this problem is very prevalent there and I know the rangers who work there are very worried about it but the culprits seem to escape supervision by the law.
Last Sunday, driving through Mary Street I noticed that all the windows on the shops had shutters. Dublin has become a shuttered city. If I was a potential investor and saw all these shutters I would immediately think that something was wrong and would be reluctant to invest here.
There is also the new threat of people being held to ransom by criminals with syringes. These criminals draw blood from themselves and then threaten to inject people with it. That is a separate offence which the Minister should cater for. If, when they are subsequently arrested, these criminals are found to be HIV positive they should be put away and never released. They are a walking timebomb. A person who is jabbed by one of these needles may be receiving a death sentence. The perpetrator should get life in prison. That would act as a deterrent. I am not saying we should do what is done in many other countries. I understand that in Argentina criminals with the HIV virus are chained to their beds so that they cannot escape. I am not suggesting for one minute that we should do that; what I am saying is that people like the drug addict who broke into the Shelbourne Hotel and threatened some guests with a syringe before robbing them should receive a life sentence.
Far too much emphasis is placed on the causes of crime. We know what causes crime. During the thirties Ireland had a worse level of poverty than any other country in Europe. For example, in the case of 18,000 families in Dublin there were six to 14 people living in a single room. The only city Dublin could be compared with for misery was Calcutta, where people actually died on the streets, and still do. However, the crimes committed then were not as vicious as those committed now. Maybe this was because people did not have anything to rob in those days. The types of crime being committed today are vicious in nature and there is a complete and utter disregard and disrespect for the law.
A year or so ago I helped in the arrest of a young fellow who was caught robbing a car. The inspector who made the arrest said that the young fellow did not worry about going to jail. When I asked if he was not worried about going in and out of jail every so often for the rest of his life he said no, he did not think beyond today. That is the mentality of some of these people. I acknowledge that some of them may have been abused and that their parents have come through the same cycle of crime but how does one break the cycle? We can use all the means we like, for example, social workers can be used in helping to solve crime until one is blue in the face.
When Loughan House was opened I was very anxious that there would be a secure detention centre for young people under 15 as we did not have one. I accept that Letterfrack and Daingean reformatories should have been closed but we only had open institutions. When we visited Trinity House we were told that two or three of the young boys there were psychiatrically disturbed and that it took the staff all their time to look after those boys to the neglect of the other people there. We must have a place where we can put psychiatrically disturbed youths, and there are such people in our community. It was a dreadful mistake to take responsibility for this issue from the Department of Justice and give it to the Department of Education who were not geared for the kind of criminal with whom they then had to deal. There are three Departments involved in dealing with youth crime — Justice, Education and Health. We need some Department to which these problems can be channelled. Bureaucracy drives everybody insane.
I have a jaundiced view of some social workers. Many of them are straight out of the universities. I agree with Deputy Harney about the supposed drop of 2 per cent in the crime statistics. It is hogwash. We know crime is increasing. People are fed-up reporting crimes because they have been burgled and robbed so many times. The gardaí know the people who are committing these crimes. One superintendent told me that there are about 120 ringleaders throughout the city and that if he had the power he could take all of them off the streets within 24 hours. I would make apologies to nobody for taking those people off the streets. They cause misery by leading gangs of young people into careers of perpetual crime.
Some drug addicts need to rob £800 a day to feed their habit and some have no difficulty in doing so. People do not argue with such people. Parents should be held responsible for the actions of their children. We introduced a Bill providing for the imposition of penalties on the parents of children who commit crime, but it has not become law. We must make parents pay if their child is responsible for burning a car. This may have to be done by deductions from social welfare payments or otherwise. The public are demanding it.
People are getting nearer to taking the law into their own hands. If they do so, they may develop a taste for it and accost a person, demanding to know his business. That person might or might not wake up in a hospital a week later. I agree the older gardaí should take over some of the softer jobs, such as delivering summonses, thus allowing younger personnel to play a more active role. We need young gardaí on the streets and they must have the back up. Every time a garda makes an arrest he is the one who is on trial, not the person arrested. The legal system works to get people off on technicalities and the general public are sick and tired of it.
There is a growing mafia-style protection racket. I was surprised to hear Deputy Harney say there is no law against protection.
The payment of protection money is not an offence.
That astonishes me and something will have to be done about it. The IRA is very much involved in mafia-type activities such as dealing in angel dust.
I refer to the blocking of the road by residents of Neilstown some time ago when one of their community was killed by a hit-and-run driver. The blocking of a main road is not the answer and I would criticise the gardaí for not telling those people to move. People have a right to travel to and from the city and they were prevented from doing so for three days because of this blockade. The line of least resistance was taken. The then Minister went out to meet the residents.
Communities must regulate their own affairs and they need backing. The neighbourhood watch scheme has worked very well in many areas but it needs to be developed. Communities must take responsibility for their own members, but when they cannot prevail on people to behave the State must step in. Perhaps a system of local magistrates courts could be established in these communities where the magistrates would know the people with whom they were dealing.
That is an idea for the long term. We need instant action. Crime is getting worse and people are very frustrated. There is no use in throwing money at this problem. We should consider opening the Curragh. This is not a new idea. We opened Spike Island some years ago, but I do not know if it is still in operation. I would not be worried about supplying these people with televisions and three square meals a day. I would give them very plain fare.
A ball and chain.
No, I am not going back to that. The crimes I have in mind are those involving violence against the person, bag snatching, breaking car windows with a crowbar. People who carry out such crimes should be dealt with in a very substantial way. As a youngster I cut turf and it was hard but clean work. A little hard work might give these fellows the work ethic and I think the public would support it.
I am pleased to make a brief contribution. The issue of law and order and the high level of crime is of concern to every Member and I congratulate Deputy Harney on giving us the opportunity for this debate. It is well known, however, that the Minister is bringing forward legislation in this area.
We are all familiar with victims of crime. We read about them in the newspapers, see them on television and meet people who have been affected in one way or another by crime. Our instance reaction is to ask what should be done with those who inflict hardship on the old by attacking them and damaging their property and those who attack gardaí in the course of their duty.
There is no doubt that the current level of crime in our society is a matter of grave concern to every person. For those of us involved in the legislative process there is a solemn duty to ensure that all possible steps are taken to ensure maximum efficiency of our laws and our law enforcement agencies.
It is important to preface one's remarks on this topic by acknowledging that a major increase in the rate of crime, often of an extremely violent and appalling nature, is unfortunately a feature of modern life in practically all developed and developing societies. The reasons are many and include rapid, and often uncontrolled, changes in the basic structures of society and exposure to violence on various media such as television, films and books.
In relation to society, more and more young people are committing very serious crimes. Family life has broken down for many of them. Problems in the home have driven many of them out of their homes. We read in the papers, and we have all received correspondence from some of the organisations such as the Simon Community, about the 4,000 or 5,000 young people sleeping rough having left their homes for one reason or another.
We are aware of the major problems in the community today which indicates that parental responsibility is non-existent in many areas. We cannot just walk away from this problem. We must approach it in a very mature and positive way. For that reason I was pleased at having met the Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, some weeks ago and outlined to her the very serious problems in Cork in the context of Garda numbers, increasing crime and the concerns of many people in the community who feel they do not have the protection of the State when walking the streets of that city. The responsibility to protect the community rests not alone with the Minister. Every Member must play his or her part to assure people that they can walk the streets of Cork, of Dublin, or of any other city, town or village and be assured that they will have the protection of the State.
However, that is much easier said than done because of changes in our society. Deputy McGahon has articulated his views in the past about what our young people see on television and not always on foreign television stations. I know we have no control over some television programmes because they are broadcast via satellite. We see such programmes on our own television channels. There is a responsibility on people in authority. The finger is always pointed at Members of this House who are fair game for everybody outside. There is much greater responsibility on society, on the media, those in the communities, the Judiciary, and the legal profession. Everyone has a contribution to make in approaching this serious problem which applies not just to Ireland or Dublin or Cork but to the Community and the world.
We continue to work on improving our legal framework in order to make it more effective in dealing with crime. We must make every effort to learn from the experience of other countries. In principle I am in favour of incorporating the best elements of other legal systems into our new legislation. However, it is equally important to stress that quality legislation is only possible after substantial preparatory work. This preliminary stage must include a number of steps. The most acute problems concerning this legislation must be clearly identified. A comprehensive range of possible solutions must be drawn up and carefully assessed. Factors which must be examined include the potential to make a significant difference and feasibility in terms of implementation and the need to maintain the rights of the individual. Because of the fundamental importance of our laws it is vital that new legislation is only brought forward when all of the preparatory stages have been completed. While there is an understandable anxiety to do something about crime every time we hear of a particularly vicious assault, we must resist the temptation to develop our legal framework as a reactive process. Such an approach is simplistic and very unlikely to be of significant benefit in the long term.
The development of laws in the modern world is not a matter of simply refining existing legislation. Rather it can only be properly undertaken if one adopts an integrated approach. In particular one cannot isolate law-making from a detailed analysis of the underlying social factors which are heavily influencing the tendency towards crime in our community. When preparing new legislation it is vitally important that the views of all relevant agencies be taken into account when attempting to design the most effective innovations. For example, I know that the Minister is involved in an ongoing series of discussions with the Commissioner and senior Garda personnel in order to be fully informed in preparing legislation. I have no doubt but that these discussions will play a substantial part in focusing attention on the aspects of current legislation which are most in need of enhancement.
I would like to emphasise the vital importance of this phase of development of legal change. While the precise details of law are undoubtedly extremely important, it is very naïve to think that major progress in crime reduction will take place simply through the introduction of more draconian laws. In the United States where there is drug trafficking and murder, and where there is execution for the most serious crimes, their problems have not been solved.
This debate has given us an opportunity to discuss this matter. We have a very serious problem. We must reassure the people. We need not divide on this Bill tonight. We must ensure that whatever legislation we bring in is effective. Far too often the law is not implemented and the course of justice is thwarted. We do not want that to happen again. The person we are all concerned with is the victim. I fully support this move but the House should take its time on this and give the Minister an opportunity to introduce her legislation. I am confident that this House will then play its part, with the other outside agencies, the Garda and the community groups, to make our cities, urban and rural areas alike, better places for us all to live in.
I propose to give about seven minutes of my time to my colleague Deputy McGahon.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I should first like to thank Deputy Harney for giving the House the opportunity to discuss this vital matter in Private Members' time. The Bill has great merit. I hope the Bill will be the basis for legislation to be put on the Statutue Book and, second, that it will focus peoples' attention on this vital national issue. I agree with those who say that there has been no reduction in the incidence of crime, regardless of what might show up in statistics. It is a fact that there is a serious crime problem and it is getting worse annually.
I have the height of respect for the present Minister for Justice, and the Minister of State at that Department, and I have no doubt that they intend to do everything possible to ensure that the problem is dealt with and that our streets and public places are made safe for people to go about their business. However, I would have serious reservations if they were to repeat the performance of the previous Minister for Justice. I can recall, not so long ago, the previous Minister intoning gently to the nation that great things were about to happen and that our capital city, and its main street, were about to become havens of warmth and companionship where everybody could walk peacefully and safely by day and by night. Unfortunately, not only did the previous Minister not deliver on that promise but tragic incidences took place as a result of his failure.
It is sad that at a time when we are supposed to be an enlightened, developed and civilised society in western Europe we have one of the most dangerous public thoroughfares in the world. That is a sad reflection on what we are supposed to be doing about the administration of justice. People who visit the main street in our capital city, O'Connell Street, associate it with violent, horrendous crime. If I were a teenager visiting this country I would be wary about visiting the capital city and I would certainly be wary about visiting the Phoenix Park or any other place by day or by night. Likewise, if I were a teenager today I would be worried about going to a disco, a football match, a rock concert or anywhere else on my own. I would not feel safe unless I was in a group among whom I could feel at ease and protected. Even in the open spaces there are predators who prey upon young people regularly, first by feeding them on and encouraging them to take drugs and then to resort to violence. We are doing little to deal with that problem, and I shall say more about that in a moment. If I were a middle aged or elderly person——
The Deputy is middle aged.
——I would be terrified to walk the streets of this city by day or by night. I intend no disrespect to my somewhat senior colleague on my left——
Is the Deputy sure that Deputy McGahon is to his left?
—— who would, no doubt, have equal trepidation about walking the streets by day or by night. I speak in a physical sense and not metaphorically.
Crime in our society is an issue of desperate urgency. Perhaps the environment of crime can be gauged from the reaction of an elderly person to a knock on the door at night. Elderly people on hearing a knock will wait and, if they can do so, will look out the window to see who is there. Before opening the door, they will call out to ask the caller to identify himself. People are terrified to open the door at night because they are afraid of what they might find. How many times have elderly people opened the door only to be beaten up and robbed? How many women in town and country areas have been raped under horrendous circumstances?
I cannot understand the reason no public attention was focused on such an important issue during the recent general election campaign, although I do acknowledge that there were one or two notable exceptions in that regard. I am sure the issue of crime was raised in the constituencies of Deputies Harney and Michael McDowell, it was certainly raised in my constituency. I do not understand why the main party in Government, and the previous Minister, did not focus on crime. There must have been recognition within the Fianna Fáil Party of what was happening and that it was time to do something about the problem.
I have spoken about the elderly but there is no crime that is specifically related to young people or to old people. It is an awful reflection on our society that the crime of rape affects people aged from nine to 90. I identify entirely with the remarks by Deputy Harney in relation to a most recent horrendous incest crime that has been the subject of much discussion. It is very sad that in that case the authorities were not alert enough to react quickly enough to avert what happened. In my opinion, to a great extent the same could be said about the way we are now dealing with crime.
A great many young people are unemployed. It does not follow that because young people are unemployed one expects them to kick in the doors of elderly people, steal motor cars or beat up people. The majority of them do not do so, they are law-abiding citizens. However, it is a fact that if a large number of people are unemployed for a long time and have not known a different lifestyle, they tend to get involved in gangs and roam the streets, thus being led towards a life of crime. From small beginnings comes serious crime.
There is also the difficulty that someone brought to justice, if that is the case, might get away with little or no punishment. The Government could and should do something by way of the appointment of extra junior liaison officers. The Minister told the House only a week ago during Question Time that there are two junior liaison officers for both counties Kildare and Carlow. County Kildare has a population of about 126,000 and County Carlow has a population of between 40,000 and 50,000. It is hypocritical to expect two liaison officers to be able to deal with a population of that size, especially in an area that has a large young population. It simply cannot be done and there is no sense in trying to deal with the problem in that way. I hope that in the not too distant future the Minister will come to grips with that matter and will do something tangible about it; take action.
The issue of bail also needs to be dealt with, and I have said that in the House repeatedly. This issue relates to both petty and serious crime yet it is not referred to to any great extent, although Deputy Harney, and other speakers, have made reference to the matter. Notwithstanding the fact that an accused person is innocent until proven guilty, I make no apology for saying that if an individual were caught carrying a sawn-off shotgun or a knife of the type used in street offences that person should be remanded in custody rather than released on bail. It seems that for as long as individuals are on bail they have no difficulty going about their criminal activities, repeating a crime as often as they like to achieve whatever results they wish. Why can we not address the problem of the person who carries offensive weapons and repeats a crime again and again, thumbing his nose at the forces of law and order? Gardaí tell us about the people they have repeatedly brought before the courts — some of them are later found guilty of more serious offences — and were remanded on bail. The gardaí point out that, because of the revolving door syndrome, some people are back out on the streets and repeating the same crimes shortly after their arrest. That must be soul destroying for the gardaí as they attempt to deal with such a problem. In the past couple of years I have had occasion to attend some of the courts to observe the way the system works. That can be an extraordinary experience for somebody who does not have any experience in legal matters. Certainly, I felt that it must be soul destroying for the Garda who were obviously dealing with some of the same people, again and again, over a period of months, indeed years, to know that the criminals would get bail or that even if they did get a sentence they would not serve it all. I hope the Ministers opposite are taking note of the problems and that they will do something about them.
As Deputy Harney said, extra gardaí on the streets will not necessarily solve the problem. However, there are new areas in which there are no gardaí and other areas have, at most, one or two. In Leixlip we were fortunate to get two gardaí on a community Garda basis about three years ago although the population of the town is 15,000. In other parts of the country there are established Garda stations in towns with a population of fewer than 500.
There are Garda stations but there is also a new phenomenon — the "green man". It is not a sexist remark; anyway I do not understand why it is called a "green man". It is a machine to be used in an emergency. If someone is robbing your house or beating your next door neighbour you are supposed to go along to the local station if you do not have any other means of communication and speak to this machine by pulling down a handle. It is highly unlikely that there will be an immediate response from the machine and I would have thought, in the light of today's telecommunications, it should be possible to devise a more responsive system.
The criminal of today has moved with the times and has all the communications necessary to keep afloat for the foreseeable future; despite our best efforts, the Garda are lagging behind. I am sure that the Ministers opposite will recall an episode in the Dublin mountains a couple of years ago when a set piece was arranged enabling a certain criminal group to outstrip, upstage and sting the forces of law and order. This was because they had telecommunications of a more sophisticated nature than those available to the Garda. Incidentally, those same sophisticated items of technology — which Members in this House have often declared as the type that should be declared illegal — are available to the criminal. This should not be the case as the Garda should have the most sophisticated and up-to-date methods of communication and the fastest system of response. Whether we like it or not, the public still want to see the gardaí in the streets because their presence reassures them, even though they may not be the answer to all their prayers. It would also be reassuring to know that the Government will respond favourably to this Bill and that they will not oppose it. I also hope that it will be incorporated in legislation and that we do not get the kind of woolly response we have repeatedly heard over the last couple of years in this House. It is an insult to people's intelisticate ligence to hear their worthwhile suggestions from the Opposition benches — born out of experience or knowledge — rejected out of hand by people on the Government side who seem to be in possession of superior, celestial knowledge which the rest of us do not have. Yet the crime rate rises and the people get more desperate, they have the impression, justifiably, that it is safer to be a criminal than a law-abiding citizen.
I support and congratulate Deputy Harney on bringing in this practical Bill and for illustrating many of the adjustments we need to make. It will come as no surprise to Members to hear that I am a hardliner and a right winger in regard to law and order; I make no apology for it because law and order has, in effect, broken down. I do not believe that unemployment is the most serious problem we face, the public have accepted that no party, despite the glossy literature at election times, have any answer to unemployment and the advances in technology. However, the main priority of our citizens is reinstatement of law and order, which cannot be done even if the Government accept this Bill, although it would be a help. The question of law and order needs to be radically reappraised and draconian measures should be implemented. Despite the platitudes expressed in this House over the years law and order have continued to deteriorate and there are many cases of elderly women locking themselves into their homes at 4 p.m. on a winter's evening. Is that a normal society or one we want to sustain?
The law has gone soft on criminals. There is too much law and not enough order. Last week John Major said that we must show more concern for the victims of crime and less consideration for those who engage in crime. That is a relevant statement and I hope he acts on it, it was made in reaction to the murder of the little boy. We also had a horrendous case here this week, to which Deputy Harney referred, the unspeakable crime in Kilkenny. I advocate chemical castration for crimes of that magnitude. That girl is not the first to have had a child by her father, it is yet another layer of our society which has recently been unveiled. Animals of that nature should receive the treatment to which I referred and life imprisonment — and I mean life.
I strongly support the retention of elderly gardaí due for retirement. Many of the young gardaí coming out of Templemore are inexperienced in the ways of the criminal but a 57 year old garda is not. He is not old at 57 and the three years — until he reaches 60 — would be invaluable in keeping crime at acceptable levels — if one can use such a phrase. Policies of containment and appeasment in relation to criminals are inadequate and are one of the reasons for the frustration in the Garda Síochána. I do not blame the Fianna Fáil Government in this regard, I indict my Government for their failure to implement radical measures in the years when they were in office. The fact remains that crime has grown to totally unacceptable levels and the criminals are winning. The Garda are fighting a losing battle, they freely admit that in private. There is no point in blaming parents for the misdemeanours of their children, society is responsible and we as legislators are responsible for society in creating the conditions in society. There are criminal classes and many thousands of people have joined them. The level of statistics of recidivists show that jailbirds and convicts offend against society time and again. They are not getting the message. The old adage that crime does not pay has been turned on its head. Crime does pay and, as Deputy Briscoe stated, drug addicts can freely earn staggering sums of money per day by their nefarious acts. We as legislators, must accept that war must be waged against criminals. Fine words will not improve the position. The judicial system must be radically overhauled and mandatory sentences must be imposed on criminals. Also due to the rise in the graph of murders as can be seen from the daily newspapers reports of gruesome murders, the question of the restoration of capital punishment should be considered.
Debate adjourned.