Other speakers have already referred to the Kilkenny case. I regret very much that since this case was revealed in the media the attention of many of us has been concentrated on the length of the sentence handed down rather than on the more serious questions which the case raises, particularly the history of abuse which goes back so far in the lifetime of the unfortunate individual concerned. It concerns me that as so many signals appear to have been sent out from this young person from the start indicating that something was seriously and radically wrong in her home, for some strange reason or set of circumstances these signals were not properly picked up so as to deliver this person from the terrible situation in which she found herself.
It may well be the case that those in positions of responsibility have become so fearful of getting it wrong and of the consequences that can arise, they are reluctant to move even a small distance in checking out such cases when signs become apparent. They fear they will suffer inordinately if their fears are without foundation. While one can understand the rights of everybody in society to be properly judged for his or her actions and those who are innocent to be deemed innocent, nevertheless the time has come for all those who might at some stage be called to assist in circumstances such as these to be trained to a much greater degree so that they will spot much earlier difficulties when they arise. If something such as this could happen in Kilkenny one can only assume, based on the highlighting of cases of this kind in the last number of years, that this is probably sadly only the tip of the iceberg. A call must go out to everyone in positions of authority that when matters of this kind come to light action must be taken.
Turning to the Bill, I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate and I compliment my constituency colleague, Deputy Harney, on bringing forward the Bill at this time. It gives us an opportunity to debate many serious issues, some of which have been referred to already. All the speakers I have listened to tonight and last night expressed great concern that the whole question of law and order is going through a change and that there is great turmoil in the community in regard to this whole area. Despite efforts made or good intentions displayed by successive Governments the position seems to be getting worse rather than better, and that is a matter that should concern all of us. In a debate of this kind we should make a contribution by putting forward suggestions and proposals to enable the community to tackle the problems that are giving rise to great concern. Undoubtedly the situation is deteriorating for a number of reasons.
I appreciate very much that the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, are not very long in office and that they have a busy schedule in terms of legislation relating to that Department but I hope that this matter will become a top priority in the Department.
The legislation covers a fairly broad range of issues on which I will touch a little later. We all have experiences to which certain sections of the Bill relate. I hope the experience gained by the Minister for Justice and her Minister of State will help to galvanise activity in the Department of Justice so that essential legislation will be enacted without delay.
A number of speakers referred to the Juvenile Justice Bill which has been promised by successive Governments now for 20 years. In my short time in the Department of Health I had some responsibility for the provision of services in the juvenile justice area. I read the history of the Juvenile Justice Bill and I found that no Department was very keen to bring forward a Juvenile Justice Bill because Departments did not want to be involved in devising legislation for children in this area. That was unfortunate. However, by the time I left, that responsibility had been, for the first time, taken up by the Department of Justice. That might surprise some listeners. I very much regret that the commitment given to bringing forward this legislation at the end of 1992 was for a variety of reasons not honoured.
I appeal to the Minister of State here to act quickly in this area because, as Deputy Fitzgerald said, it very much impinges on the subject matter of this Bill and on the report from the Committee on Crime which we will be discussing on Friday next. The committee was chaired by Deputy Quill and produced an excellent report. Permeating that report is the insistence that the Juvenile Justice Bill should be brought forward as quickly as possible to introduce a variety of mechanisms to deal with the juvenile crime area with which it is simply impossible to deal under the 1908 Act.
We all know that the people we represent demand that legislation in this area should be modernised. There are complex issues involved which have not been adequately tackled up to now. The time needed to introduce the sort of legislation required to alleviate the difficulties is running out. We could have the best of legislation, but it would be pointless without the necessary resources to give effect to it. Lack of resources has contributed to the deterioration in law and order. I understand that times are difficult and resources are scarce, but, in purely economic terms it is foolish to try to develop our tourism industry and spend a great deal in developing tourist facilities and on marketing abroad if two or three highlighted incidents of tourists suffering the consequences of crime can have a negative effect on that. If resources are scarce, we need to get our priorities right and first allocate adequate resources to give effect to criminal justice legislation so that the Garda, social workers, educationists and health workers have the resources to tackle the problems in a co-ordinated way.
We must be honest in approaching this area and acknowledge that for too long the courts have been slow in dealing with cases. There has been a consistent complaint from the community that identified offenders, particularly young offenders, are brought before the courts and are then allowed out on bail for a considerable length of time. There is a need for additional resources there. This would help to support any new legislation brought forward.
The condition of courthouses throughout the country has been consistently highlighted in this Chamber and by justices around the country. The physical structures to discharge the responsibilities of the courts are not there. In Tallaght for instance, with almost 100,000 people, we do not have a courthouse because the Department of Justice says it is the responsibility of the local authority and the local authority says it does not have the money and that therefore it is really the responsibility of the Department of Justice. There have been improvements to courthouses, but many of them leave a lot to be desired. This problem should be properly addressed.
We might be inclined to be encouraged from time to time by reports in the media from the Garda Commissioner or superintendents in relation to a fall in the crime rate. People are pleased that the crime rate has gone down by 2 per cent in one area, 3 per cent in another or 10 per cent in another, but I do not believe a word of it. Many people affected by crime in more recent times simply do not report the crimes. I am referring to crimes of burglary, theft from cars, interference with persons generally and acts of that kind. These crimes are not reported because Garda resources are so stretched that gardaí deal with the more serious crimes first and the minor crimes later. The ordinary person feels that he will not get the response to which he feels entitled and he just does not bother any more. Many individuals affected by crime on a number of occasions have given up. That is why it might be perceived from time to time that the crime rate has fallen. It is not fair to blame the Garda Síochána on the basis that they perhaps do not organise their responses to calls more efficiently. It is generally the case that they simply have not the capacity to respond. They are being unfairly blamed by the community and that militates against the ability of the Garda to be welcomed in all communities and to receive the support and co-operation of the community at large in discharging their responsibilities.
Sometimes gardaí have found that in certain areas they are unable to move freely and those situations have been highlighted for all of us. It is very sad that gardaí should find themselves coming under such intense obstruction in discharging their duties. It is the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, her advisers and other personnel in the Department of Justice and those working with the Garda Commissioner to bring about change. For too long, unlike in the past, gardaí have tended to be isolated within their communities. The more isolated the gardaí are from the community the more difficult it is for the community and the gardaí to act in a coherent fashion and for that reason it is necessary to put in place formal structures to allow gardaí to interact with local communities.
We are familiar with the neighbourhood watch scheme with the neighbourhood gardaí schemes, which are excellent schemes, but the linkage between gardaí and the community at parish level is very weak. The interaction between local communities and the gardaí depends to some extent on the good offices of the superintendents. It is important that some structure be put in place whereby gardaí will interact far more closely with local organisations, community organisations, local elected representatives and other statutory agencies working in particular areas. That has happened in one or two places, particularly in west County Dublin where there was major social crisis, and it has worked very well. It has been attempted in other areas and there have been beneficial results from such interaction. The procedure for dealing with the problem is not formally structured on a national basis and I would ask the Minister of State to consider this and not just rule it out. Once the issues are raised and the resources are in place, enlisting the support of the community is the only effective way to deal with problems of the type dealt with in this Bill.
In urban areas there are serious issues which must be addressed urgently and this Bill attempts to do that. It highlights a few positive measures and regardless of the destiny of this Bill I would like to see those measures included in any legislation brought forward by the Minister for Justice. Other speakers have referred to the situation where old people are essentially prisoners in their own humble abodes because of the activities of anti-social elements near their homes, in the streets, or in the parks at the end of their roads. That is a very unfortunate situation and it has been prevalent for some time. The problem has been highlighted by Members on all sides of the House over the last number of years and we still have not been able to come to grips with it. We have not been able to give the Garda the powers they need to deal with the problem.
It is all very well to provide powers in legislation whereby when a crime is committed the gardaí can move in and bring the person alleged to have committed the crime to the station, carry out their investigations and so on. However, in cases where a crime is not committed, the suggestion permeating different reports that I have read is that these problems have not been addressed but nevertheless they are just as serious for certain vulnerable sections of our community.
The question of intimidation is beginning to rear its ugly head here and I will refer to one or two instances in the time available to me. There is the group, a small percentage of the population of young people, who congregate outside old people's homes. They do not actually break the law, but they can have a very intimidating effect on the elderly person who is unable and does not have the strength to cope with the general horseplay that goes on among young people and with which we are familiar. That can be very intimidating for old people who may have worked all their lives here, having reared their families and may now be living alone. They may be a widow, widower or an elderly couple. To be ending the last years of their lives in such circumstances is unforgiveable and it is up to us, as legislators, to deal with this problem now. There is no point in saying to an elderly person we are going to introduce this legislation but it will be two or three years before it makes a difference to your way of life.
Communities may decide that they do not want a particular type of person living in their community. Under the Constitution they have no right to attempt to drive such a person out of their lawful home, but when 50, 100 or 200 people gather on the roadside outside a particular house, where there is a family legally and properly ensconced it is very difficult for that family not to feel so threatened and intimidated that they have to leave the house. Sadly, that has happened on a number of occasions in my constituency during my time as a Dáil representative. Under existing legislation gardaí will be present simply to keep the peace, but there is not much peace for the family in the house, including the children who are exposed to this mass intimidation. Any legislation that is brought forward, and I understand Deputy Harney plans to include it in this Bill, must take account of that fact and it is no longer good enough for the gardaí to say nobody is breaking the law and to allow 200 people park outside a person's home because they do not believe that person should be allocated that particular house. That is not acceptable. It is clear from section 1 that it may be Deputy Harney's intention to deal with this type of problem and others of a similar nature.
In relation to section 5, I would express a note of caution with regard to the interpretation of that section. If enacted its interpretation may give rise to problems. There have been cases where it has been left to the gardaí to interpret sections of Acts to act accordingly. Unfortunately, that does not always correspond with what local communities think gardaí should do.
In my view, section 5 is defective. There is a scenario whereby the parking of heavy goods vehicles in residential areas causes great annoyance to people who subsequently report this matter to the Garda. The Garda can move these vehicles only if, in their opinion, they are parked dangerously. The view of the local community may be that the vehicle is dangerously parked in that a young person may run out from behind it and may be knocked down by an oncoming vehicle. The gardaí interpreting the legislation available to them may say the vehicle is not parked dangerously. That is the reason we have to be particularly careful when we are including any section similar to section 5 so that in so far as interpretations are concerned they are set down very firmly in order that people are not disappointed by what may turn out to be weak legislation rather than legislation intended to achieve a great deal of good. The final point I wish to make relates to prohibition orders. There is reference in section 9 to prohibition orders. All of us who have served on local authorities will know how weak a prohibition order can be when it comes to its implementation.
