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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 May 1993

Vol. 431 No. 1

Adjournment debate. - Social Welfare Equalisation.

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to raise this important matter for tens of thousands of Irish women. The implementation of European Community regulations on equalisation of social welfare is complex and it has been the subject of several court cases in both the Irish courts and the European Court. The Department of Social Welfare is now using that complexity in an attempt to deprive tens of thousands of women of substantial payments to which they are entitled under EC rules. The action of the Department is forcing many women to employ solicitors to secure their rights and allowing the legal profession to earn fat fees in the process. The Department of Social Welfare is implementing some of the findings of the European Court on this issue and is making payments of arrears of certain benefits to women in three phases for the period December 1984 to November 1986 and has made a reasonable effort to alert women who qualify for these benefits. These payments are not the issue and the Department is trying to use those payments to convince the public that all of the requirements of equalisation are being met. This is not the case.

A separate case was taken on behalf of two Irish women, Anne Cotter and Nora McDermott, claiming that they were also entitled to the alleviation payments which had been operated between 1986 and 1992 but which had been paid to men only. The matter was referred by the Irish courts to the European Court, which found is favour of the two women in a judgment on 13 March 1991. It referred the matter back to the Supreme Court, but the Government settled the case on 6 June of that year before the Supreme Court could consider it and paid the two women in question.

It clearly follows that if Anne Cotter and Nora McDermott had a valid case and were entitled to alleviation payments, tens of thousands of women in similar circumstances are also entitled to these payments. However, since then the Department had done nothing to make other women in similar circumstances aware that they may qualify for these payments and has done everything possible to withhold information. The Department is only paying up where solicitors acting on behalf of qualifying women threaten or initiate legal action. I understand hat around 2,000 women in Dublin and 800 in Cork have already received arrear payments where solicitors have intervened on their behalf. In some cases he payments are reported to have been as much as £6,000, but information is hard to come by as a condition of the payment has been that women will not disclose the amount paid.

Earlier this week I pointed out that what amounted to a mini-industry for the legal profession had grown up around the claims with solicitors from Dublin and Cork advertising regularly in the evening newspapers offering to take cases on behalf of women who qualify for the arrears. Let me give one example from the Evening Herald last week headed “Equality Payments” which stated that married women in receipt of social welfare benefits between 1984 and 1992 should seek legal advice on their entitlements. It listed a free telephone number to contact.

I am also in possession of a letter from a firm of solicitors to a woman who responded to one of these advertisements. The letter asks the women to sign an authorisation allowing it to act on her behalf and states:

In the event of our being successful we will be looking for fees based on the amount we collect. If we collect £2,000 we will be looking for £200 plus VAT at 21 per cent. If it was £4,000 we would be looking for twice that. In the unlikely event that we were not successful we would not be looking for any fees.

The veil of secrecy which the Minister for Social Welfare has attempted to draw over the payments makes a mockery of the commitments given in the Programme openness" and "improving public accountability, transparency and trust". It is not just women who may qualify for arrears who have been denied information, Members of this House have also been denied it. For instance, when my cloleague, Deputy McManus, tabled a detailed question on 12 May last asking for the number of women who had applied for and received payments - and the average amounts paid - the Minister failed to supply the information. Again, as a public representative and a Member of Dáil Éireann, I demand to know how many women have applied for and received alleviation payments due to them and the average amount paid in each case.

The treatment of women entitled to these arrears, particularly the attempts to keep them in the dark, is an outrage. What is the value of having a Minister for Equality and Law Reform if he turns a blind eye to women still being treated as second class citizens? Is this the best that the Labour Party can achieve in Government, especially when it has a Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare who claims to be particularly committed to the rights to women?

The attempts to effectively defraud women of their entitlements are failing. More and more are discovering that they Council for the Status of Women yesterday followed my radio and television interviews with a statement demanding that the Department pays up. The Minister should now accept that he will not get away with it. He should be honest, live up to our commitments as a member of the European Community and start paying. Failure to do so would only make more money for solicitors and may even leave this country open to further embarrassment at European level.

The Government is committed to a programme of equality which it is proceeding to implement. It is ironic that Deputy De Rossa expresses concern for this matter when he is campaigning for the reinstatement of the alleviating payments which have been found discriminatory by the European Court of Justice.

I want to respond at he outset to the allegation by Deputy De Rossa that people who take legal action against my Department will receive payments to which they are not entitled under the equal treatment legisation. This is not the case and anyone who takes proceedings on the basis of the Deputy's comments will find that my Department will defend any such proceedings in the courts.

That is not what I said.

This position was made clear in a statement issued by the Department of Social Welfare on 24 April which, in response to comments that the Department would make payments to people who threaten legal proceedings, stated:

This misrepresents the Department's position. The Department is accountable to the taxpayer and would be duty bound to counter, through the Courts if necessary, any claims which are outside the statutory criteria.

At the same time, women should be assured that there are statutory criteria regulating the matter of arrears. The Department is in the process of paying arrears in conformity with those criteria.

Criteria established by the Minister.

Let us hear the Minister of State without interruption.

As the Deputy rightly said this is a highly complex issue. As Deputies will be aware, the problem in relation to equal treatment arose as a consequence of a delay in implementing the Equality Directive. Proceedings were initiated by a number of married women and when the various legal issues were clarified by the European Court at the request of the Irish courts, retrospective legislation was introduced in June 1992. These measures, which are contained in the European Communities (Social Welfare) Regulations, 1992, provide for equality of treatment in respect of the period of delay. Specifically, they provide for payment of: the increased rate of benefits; the extra three months unemployment benefit; increases for adult and child dependants in the form of a household supplement; and unemployment assistance.

The suggestion that my Department is trying to avoid making payments to the married wormen concerned is nonsense. The Department made extensive efforts at the time to identify all potential beneficiaries by trawling through records of married women who were getting a social welfare payment at the time. It was not even necessary for women t seek a claim form because we issued a personalised claim form to all those involved. At the same time, in order to ensure that everyone had been identified, and extensive advertising campaign was undertaken in the newspapers and on radio.

Following these efforts by the Department, about 85,000 claims have been received and these are currently being processed in accordance with the provisions of the retrospective legislation. As I said proceedings were initiated before the retrospective legislation came into force arising from the delay in implementing the directive. In some cases, these proceedings were initiated as far back as 1985. As the Department has already made known, settlements were made in such cases but we have now provided for equality of treatment in respect of the period of delay. By any objective criteria, the provisions for paying arrears have to be regarded as being fair and equitable to all concerned.

Deputy De Rossa specifically referred to the alleviation payments. A I said, he is campaigning for their reintroduction. As the Deputy well knows, these payments were introduced to cushion families dependent on social welfare who would otherwise have suffered a reduction in their weekly payments on the introduction of the new dependency arrangements in November 1986. Many families would obviously have entered into financial commitments on the basis of the payments which they were getting at the time and the alleviation payments were introduced to protect the position of those families.

The Deputy is proposing that we should pay families twice and pay families who not only did not suffer any reduction in payment but whose payments actually increased at the time. The Deputy may think that this is the most effective way to spend money in the social welfare area but I disagree. We have allocated almost £60 million to make good the delay in implementing the directive and I see no reason to provide further resources and make double payments.

The Minister of State is a disgrace.

Our approach is to target resources effectively. The cost of the improvements in the social welfare area announced in the budget this year is over £75 million in 1993 and over £180 million in a full year. In addition to maintaining the value of social welfare payments in real terms, we provided increases well ahead of inflation to those on the lower rates of payment. Among the many improvements made this year, we provided a substantial increase in the rate of child benefit, increased the rate of carer's allowance by £6.20 per week and significantly improved the position of low paid workers by allocating additional resources for the family income supplement scheme.

The suggestion by Deputy De Rossa that we pay certain families twice and make payments to families who actually gained from the introduction of equal treatment——

I am talking about the women who are entitled to these payments.

——could only serve to divert resources from where they should be spent such as on those dependent on social welfare, on child benefit which as the Deputy knows in targeted at women——

Child benefit is targeted at children.

——it is payable to the caring parent which in general is the mother - and on workers in low paid employment.

Deputy De Rossa had a good hearing without interruption.

Finally, I repeat for the benefit of the Deputy and women that equality of treatment has been provided for in respect of the period of delay in a fair and equitable manner and I see no reason for providing additional payments as suggested by the Deputy.

The Minister of State would not; she does not know what she is talking about and has totally distorted the case.

The Deputy is campaigning for the reintroduction of discrimination.

The Minister of State is demonstrating once again that she is a total disgrace. She will learn one day.

Order, from both sides of the House; Deputy De Rossa, let us proceed in an orderly way with the Adjournment debate.

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