Cuireann sé iontas orm nach bhfuil níos mó Teachtaí sa Dáil agus an cheist thábhachtach seo á plé againn. B'fhéidir gurb é an fáth nach bhfuil Teachtaí ó Pháirtí an Lucht Oibre agus ó Fhianna Fáil i láthair ná gurb iad na páirtithe atá sa Rialtas i láthair na huaire agus nach bhfuil siad féin róshásta leis an méid atá á dhéanamh acu. B'fhéidir go bhfuil náire orthu. Cinnte, ní féidir liomsa teacht ar aon tuairim eile ach go bhfuil náire de shórt éigin orthu nuair nach bhfuil siad sásta a bheith anseo chun seasamh taobh thiar den mholadh seo, más é sin an rud a gcreideann siad ann. Ach is é an rud is mó a chuireann iontas orm ná go bhfuil an tAire Airgeadais é féin sásta an moladh seo a chur os comhair na Dála, os rud é nach raibh sé den tuairim seo bhliain ó shin nuair a bhí mo pháirtí agus mé féin sa Rialtas leis. Ba mhaith liom an cheist sin a chur air inniu: cad a tharla ó shin chun athrú intinne a theacht air féin agus a pháirtí faoi rudaí den sórt seo. An é go bhfuil athrú ar chinnireacht, go bhfuil athrú ar fhealsúnacht an pháirtí sin de bharr na n-athruithe a tháinig sa chinnireacht sin? Más fíor é, agus ní féidir liom teacht ar aon tuairim eile faoi, feictear dom go bhfuil Fianna Fáil ag meath i bhfad níos tapúla ná mar a cheapas féin.
Lest the Minister does not understand me, rather than having him read it afterwards, I am questioning him on what has happened in the past 12 months to bring about such a change of attitude, a change of mind, a change of philosophy on his part when both he and my party rejected a suggestion of this kind only 12 months ago when the 1992 budget was being prepared. I wonder what has changed on the other side? We have seen a change of Government, with the Labour Party going into Government with Fianna Fáil. I would be surprised if that was the reason this proposal is being brought forward. I do not imagine that it emanated from the Labour side of the Government and I am amazed and disgusted that the Labour Party are supporting it. I have not yet understood the logic of the Labour Party position on this issue. I am amazed at the sea change that has taken place in the Fianna Fáil approach to this matter.
As the Minister is aware, a proposal of this kind was rejected out of hand by the Minister and his officials when the 1992 budget was being prepared. It was also rejected by the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey. The only changes that have taken place are that the Progressive Democrats are no longer in Government and that the leadership of the Fianna Fáil Party has changed. That is the factor I would identify as the reason for this change. I have heard my colleagues say here on a number of occasions that they do not believe the Minister could have been the author of this proposal or that he personally could be very happy with it. From the previous stands adopted in preparing budgets in the past, we are aware this is not the Minister's personal position and that the very strong arguments always brought forward by the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance officials against proposals of this kind are still valid today. Nothing has happened to make them valid in 1993 and invalid in 1992. The only thing we can identify as having changed is the leadership which has brought about a major change in the philosophy of the Fianna Fáil Party, much to that party's shame. That party is going down the slippery slope much faster than I had thought.
The Fianna Fáil philosophy always showed concern for ordinary, decent, hard working citizens who down through the years supported this State and tried as best they could to live within the laws and financial impositions of the State in order to maintain the structures and the services of the State. They have suffered the highest level of income tax in the Community. They have made these sacrifices and willingly handed over to the State a high percentage of their income. They now must look aghast and in astonishment at the Government's proposal. Those smarter people — generally wealthier people — who had the money to buy the brains could find ways in which to avoid paying their legal dues under our taxation code and to shift their money out of the country through devious illegal means. Those people are now to receive the blessing of the Government and are invited to bring their money back in here on the understanding that it is welcome.
The aura accompanying announcements from Fianna Fáil gave one the impression that they would all be at the airport, clapping, applauding and cheering these wonderful citizens who were going to bring their illegal funds back into this country and that they were to be thanked and praised for it. What about the poor pensioners who had to pay tax on their measly incomes? What about the people working on the factory floor? What about civil servants at every level throughout the country who have had no opportunity to dodge their tax obligations and who have it deducted at source? Are they to stand aside and applaud this move? The Civil Service is totally opposed to this proposal. Department of Finance and Revenue officials are opposed to this proposal and could not possibly have changed their minds since the Progressive Democrats left office. We do not need the advice of Finance or Revenue officials or any other moral authority in the country to tell us that this is wrong. We know it is wrong. It is leading this country into a very dangerous era where the integrity of the taxation system will be undermined for the future.
If the Minister introduces an amnesty in this fashion now he is encouraging people from here on in to find every possible means to avoid paying their tax and to shift their money out of the country and just wait until the next amnesty is introduced when they can safely bring their money back into the country. The Minister is proposing to go down that road for the spurious reasons given by his party and by the spokespersons who have come in here, mostly from the backbench. Where are the Government spokespersons? Where are the more senior, more mature, more experienced members of the Fianna Fáil Party? Backbenchers have been brought in to try to give the impression that this measure is acceptable to the Fianna Fáil organisation throughout the country. It certainly is not. The greatest dismay is being expressed by people who have given loyal support to the Fianna Fáil Party and Labour Party supporters are astonished at this debate. The introduction of the amnesty will bring about a major change in the attitude of the public to the whole Government structure and the integrity of the taxation system as we know it. It is not too late to withdraw this proposal, and it is essential that it be withdrawn.
I understand the Minister is allowed to speak only once on Report Stage and he has chosen to wait until everybody has made their contribution. I do not know if that is satisfactory. It is not necessary for him to wait to be the last speaker. He could come in at any stage during the debate and make his own contribution which we would see as being the Government contribution. In view of the fact that he is holding back until all others have spoken in the debate, it appears the Government are still intent on proceeding with this ill-conceived proposal. If that is so, it is an alarming development.
It is astonishing that, despite the opportunity that has been presented, by the action of my own party, to re-think this issue, the Government has not yet seen the folly of its ways nor had the courage to come forward and admit that it was making a serious mistake and was prepared to make a change in regard to what it was proposing.
I heard the ridiculous remarks of the Taoiseach at the airport yesterday morning. They are astonishing and they defy logic. As somebody who has spent 27 or 28 years here as an elected Member, I find it depressing that standards in public life and the standards of leadership in this country have deteriorated to such an extent that the leader of the country is promoting a proposal of this kind and seeking to justify it with simplistic arguments, saying it is better to have the money here rather than out there and that therefore we should do this thing. It is absolutely ridiculous and indicates a very shortsighted approach on the part of the Government.
I wonder if the Government understands the level of anger that exists among the ordinary people who have been crushed by the taxation system? The reform of that system was one of the objectives of the Progressive Democrats. In despair people pulled out of other parties and established a new party in this country. One of the objectives of the new political movement that was founded by Deputy Desmond O'Malley, which I and other people joined and that people voted for, was to take a stand against this kind of thing, to take a stand against the crippling levels of taxation that Governments were piling onto the backs of hard working people in this country and to try to create a better Ireland by easing that burden and creating an opportunity for investment and for the entrepreneurial initiative of the Irish people to be used to develop our own economy instead of forcing our brightest and our best to emigrate and build economies abroad, as they have so successfully done. It has been proven time and again that whenever Irish people with an education have gone abroad they have done exceptionally well. In the main they have been denied the opportunity to succeed at home because of the structures we have put in place and the crippling system we have established. Part of that system is the overburdening weight of taxation, which gives nobody a chance to invest, to develop, to expand and to use his own individual expertise in creating something in Ireland which one would be proud of and which would create work for others. We will continue to struggle and limp along if some major change does not take place. That was the motivation for people like myself who left Fianna Fáil, people who left Fine Gael and left Labour. We have people who left The Workers' Party and supported our party. That happened because of despair at anything ever changing in this country. We are a small party and we may be looked down upon by the larger parties, so long as they are larger than us, but those parties should not under-estimate the anger and feelings of a huge number of people. Their loyalty will not always remain unbroken and many of the loyal supporters who have traditionally given their votes to the bigger parties have been having second thoughts about the way in which they cast their votes. As time goes on people will look to how they might exercise their vote. The party opposite need not assume that it will always command that huge percentage of the support of the Irish people it traditionally got in the past. This kind of action will change Ireland. The people do not have the opportunity to bring about change except at election time, but if one or two parties with 100 Deputies in this House can be in Government for five years an enormous amount of damage can be done to the economy and the future can look very bleak.
We have a duty and responsibility to take a strong stand on issues we consider important. We are determined that this item will be highlighted in this House and will not be allowed to slip through, as everything has been slipping through here in the past, with cosy arrangements, with, unfortunately, Fine Gael sometimes agreeing with Fianna Fáil and letting things slip through, and with excessive use of the guillotine. When I was first elected it was the exception to see a guillotine motion and there was always an outcry if a Government attempted to bring in such a motion.
Nowadays the guillotine is regularly used to push through important legislation which is never teased out or discussed. That is not a praiseworthy development. It leads to general malaise.
It is not easy for a party our size to continually raise these issues because of the strain one comes under if nobody else is prepared to take a stand on behalf of the general public in regard to the various misdemeanours and scandals that have come to light in our society. However, somebody has to do it. Time will show that the people abhor this kind of action. This measure being proposed here is another instance of the kind of deterioration in standards that is taking place. If we now seek to condone and applaud those who have cheated the system in the past at the expense of those who have paid, it will undermine the whole taxation system and have long term effects. It will damage the whole Government system in the future. It will undermine people's confidence in the system and encourage those who up to now have struggled to meet the State's requirements to throw in the towel.
What we have achieved here and the sacrifices made in the past by the founders of this State, as outlined by Deputy Quill, will go for naught if we allow crooks and gangsters to come to the top and to be the norm in this country. The Minister can seek to doctor it up, but let him be under no illusion; that is exactly what the Minister is encouraging. It is pathetic to hear Deputies from the Labour Party talking about the need for money to provide services for all the various areas of activity, such as the health services and the social welfare services. Of course, there is a need and there is a shortage of funds but if we sink to the level of funding those essential services for our people through this means, it will damage the whole fabric of society and will have reverberations that will go on for many years and have a terrible effect.
We are opposed to the proposal in principle. We are opposed to the philosophy behind it. We believe the vast majority of the decent people in this country are totally opposed to this and that it will cause untold havoc in the years ahead.
It was sad this morning to listen to the chairman of the Labour Parliamentary Party who felt obliged, for some reason or other, to come here and seek to justify the stand that his party, in Government, had taken, a stand foisted on him because of the decision made by the few of his colleagues who were around the Cabinet table with the Fianna Fáil Ministers. Deputy Kemmy felt it incumbent on him to say that everybody was dodging tax anyway and that it really did not matter. He said that, of all people, politicians, who live in the real world, knew that this was so and that tax evaders were endemic in our society. I quote from what he said this morning. He said:
Politicians have their ears close to the ground. They live in the real world, they meet people on the streets and they know the reality of life more than many others.
He went on to say that those who are opposing this measure were offering bogus arguments. He said many people evade tax and that tax evasion in our society was widespread "from top to bottom". This is the philosophy of the Labour Party as expounded by Deputy Kemmy this morning. He went on:
It affects politicians, journalists, trade union employees and there is an unfortunate case in the media today in respect of this issue. Many people evade taxes in respect of their incomes. That is the position. Politicians are aware of this and they try to maximise their expenses in respect of travel and that is also well known.
That is an astonishing allegation made by a Member of this House as a justification of the Minister's proposal to grant an amnesty to tax dodgers. The chairman of the Labour Parliamentary Party is coming in here justifying this measure on the grounds that politicians — and if he is referring to politicans I assume he is referring to Members of this House — are trying to maximise their expenses in respect of their travel.
This is an allegation which points the finger at every Member of this House. I am one such Member. I was disturbed to hear him make that accusation in that fashion this morning and that the Chair — a Deputy of the House was Acting Chairman — did not ask him to withdraw the remark. If the Ceann Comhairle will permit me now, I would ask Deputy Kemmy, on reflection, to come back to this House at some date in the near future and withdraw that scandalous allegation he made against every Member of this House. I speak for myself, as Deputy Kemmy said he was speaking for himself. I want that remark withdrawn if it is pointing the finger at me as a Member of this House. I ask Deputy Kemmy to withdraw his remark in regard to all the Members of this House.
Deputy Kemmy went on to say that he would stand over and take any criticism from many Member because his own record was clear, that he is able to speak out on issues and is not part of a golden circle. He went on to say that journalists "are not in a position to point the finger at anybody." He said that journalists "are not paragons of virtue" and that they have been known to doctor their expenses." Deputy Kemmy's remarks regarding journalists are in the same vein as his remarks regarding politicans. The chairman of the Labour Parliamentary Party has suggested that politicians and journalists are making false claims for expenses to which they are not entitled and because that is condoned we should condone those who dodge payment of their tax. He asked that we should support this marvellous proposal from the Government and grant an amnesty to those who have cheated by taking money out of this country instead of paying tax on it here.
This is an extraordinary allegation made by a Member of this House against other Members. I have always admired Deputy Kemmy for his courage and I do not know what abberration came over him today in relation to these matters. I have no doubt of his personal integrity, but he is pointing the finger at everybody else. He is doing so as a justification for this proposal. I find that grossly offensive. I ask Deputy Kemmy to come to this House and withdraw that allegation at an early opportunity. I ask the Leader of his party, I ask the Minister and Taoiseach to stand up in this House and disassociate themselves from the statement made by Deputy Kemmy today. He said he has heard much hypocrisy during the last two days. Deputy Kemmy, the man who made this allegation against everybody in this House, says that the arguments being made by those opposing this amendment are hypocritical. In other words, he suggests that because we are all fiddling our travelling expenses we are hypocrites to argue against the Minister granting an amnesty to people who have fiddled tax payments and liabilities in the past. That is an absolutely disgraceful allegation. I hope the Ceann Comhairle, who has a special duty in regard to the integrity of the membership of this House, will reflect on the words of Deputy Kemmy and consider whether it is appropriate that the matter be brought before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to have it examined. Things have been said in the past with less serious implications in respect of the personal integrity of Members and they were brought before it.