Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Jun 1993

Vol. 433 No. 1

Wildlife Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Kemmy

Irrespective of the outcome of this Bill this debate has been useful, timely and long overdue. It has given people such as myself an opportunity to discuss a matter about which we have deep and long held opinions. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the question of live hare coursing, a practice which should be repugnant to any civilised society and which should be outlawed immediately without prevarication. There should be no beating about the bush on this issue. People who support live hare coursing will acknowledge that opinion in private so there should be no more prevarication in this House by the Government or other Deputies on this issue.

The contributions to the debate last week were an insult to the intelligence. They were homespun sermons which appeared to have been written for the Deputies concerned. Those Deputies have an obligation to use their intelligence. If Members are sent submissions on the issue they must rely on their own experience and bring their own intelligence to bear on those submissions and filter them through the light of experience as a Deputy and as a human being.

The greyhound industry here has long been in a shambles. Everybody knows it is in need of root and branch reform. Much of the sport of greyhound racing is seedy and shabby compared with greyhound industries in other countries such as the United States, Canada and Australia. Perhaps it is true that it does not receive sufficient funding, it is under-capitalised, but apart from that it is not a professional industry. There is little point in saying that the killing of 51 hares in Cloonanna, County Limerick, is unacceptable. How many hares must we kill before the practice becomes unacceptable? That is not the issue. The activity is wrong and it should be declared illegal as soon as possible. Many of the meetings which we hear nothing about are run in an unprofessional manner. The time has come for live hare coursing to be made illegal in the same way that cock fighting, badger baiting and pit bull terrier fighting is illegal. There should be no kicking to touch on this issue today.

It will not be the end of the world if live hare coursing is abolished. People can find other ways to occupy their time and can turn their energies and activities into the industry in a different way. The muzzling of greyhounds is not the answer to this problem. The hare will not know that the greyhounds are muzzled and on large turfs of grass the greyhounds could break their necks. Indeed, travelling at 13 miles per hour or more the hare can be killed also. The hare is certainly terrified in those circumstances.

The Government must not fudge this issue. I am unhappy with its attitude and I say that as chairman of the Labour Party. My party is opposed to live hare coursing. This issue must be tackled and as long as I have been a Member of this House, since 1981, I have been sick and tired of Governments saying that Private Members' time is not useful. That is the stock answer in every case. Bills could be taken on board and amended on Committee or Report Stage. That has happened in several cases. Former Minister, Deputy Collins, did that on two occasions in the past involving Deputy Shatter's Bill.

The time has come for us to be magnanimous and more mature. If a Bill can be improved we must do that, take it on board and acknowledge its merits. It is not sufficient to say that live hare coursing is part of our culture. Just because something is part of one's culture does not, ipso facto, make it right. The time has come for the anti-live hare coursing groups to double their efforts. I hope the Minister and the Minister of State will meet those groups as they have met those who are pro-live hare coursing. It is important that we have a balance in this regard and I hope the anti-hare coursing groups will make submissions to the Minister.

The reality is that we must use the time available to us to ensure that we adopt the right approach regarding this issue. We must transform our greyhound racing industry into a professional sport. It must be made an acceptable sport which families can enjoy. Live hare coursing, by any stretch of the imagination, could not be considered a sport. It is barbaric. It is not a test of speed, stamina or skill between equals because it is two trained greyhounds chasing a hare. That could not possibly be called a sport. Some people say that the object is not to kill but merely to turn the hare but that is not the reality. As far as I am concerned this activity has gone on for far too long here. It has damaged the image of this country and should be ended now for once and for all. The Government must grasp the nettle.

So far as I am concerned, as chairman of the Labour Party, irrespective of the outcome of this Bill I have no intention of changing my views on this issue. This matter will be raised again whether by Deputy Gregory, another Deputy or myself and I intend to continue to call for the banning of live hare coursing in this country.

Mr. Molloy

I wish to share some of my time with my colleague, Deputy Harney.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. Molloy

Having listened carefully to the arguments advanced on both sides of this debate I have no doubt but that all who have contributed have expressed sincerely held views, in some cases views and opinions reflecting the speakers background, the environment in which they were reared and their experiences of life. Those Deputies, mostly coming from a rural background, have tended to support coursing, but conditionally, while those mostly from a large urban background have tended to favour this Bill or a Government Bill which, it is promised, will be along similar lines.

The Progressive Democrats are unanimous in their condemnation of the unsavoury practices that have been reported as taking place at some coursing meetings and are also critical of the lack of an adequate supervisory role for the State in the running of these events up to now. Recognising the diversities of backgrounds and experiences of our own Deputies and the different views as to how best this situation might be dealt with in the future, our parliamentary party has unanimously decided on this occasion to allow our Deputies a free vote on this Private Members' Bill which Deputy Gregory has brought before the House.

It is clear to me both from the discussions within our own party and from the views which I have heard expressed in the House by Deputies from other parties, that there is a general agreement that greyhound coursing activities should be strictly regulated or banned altogether.

In deciding what way to vote on this issue, I have drawn on my personal and practical experience of the years my family were involved with the breeding, rearing, training and coursing of greyhounds, but mostly tracking dogs. That was for most of my years as a schoolboy and young adult.

Today I am opposed to the "kill" in greyhound coursing and the cruelty associated with it and I see the need for comprehensive, statutory controls including the muzzling of dogs, with adequate supervisory arrangements to ensure full implementation and enforcement.

I have heard the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, promise legislation to implement such measures and I reserve my judgment on hare coursing until I see the Minister's Bill which I hope will be brought forward early in the next session. I listened intently to Deputy Gregory's speech and was shocked at some of the allegations he made. Indeed, if I was satisfied that what he said was true of all aspects of the activities of the Irish Coursing Club and its affiliates, I would have no hesitation in supporting his Private Members' Bill. However, I believe in justice and in hearing both sides of the argument.

I listened to Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, who spoke after Deputy Gregory, and felt that he did not deal adequately with many of the points raised by him in regard to alleged practices and activities in the coursing world. I asked the Irish Coursing Club for its explanation on the various points raised by Deputy Gregory. I will mention the response it gave as the records of this debate should show that response for what it is worth. Deputy Gregory referred to drug testing carried out by the Irish Coursing Club in 1990 and stated that 50 per cent of the greyhounds tested were found positive. However, I am informed by the ICC that it voluntarily introduced intensive drug testing in 1989. It claims that it has pursued a very strong policy in this regard since then. It gave me statistics to illustrate developments in regard to drug testing which it carried out: in 1989 of 48 greyhounds tested, only two were analysed as positive — 4 per cent; in 1990, it tested only 13 greyhounds, six of which were analysed as positive — that of course would give the high percentage of 46 per cent mentioned by Deputy Gregory; in 1991, it stepped up testing and tested 60 dogs in all, only two of which were analysed as positive — 3 per cent; in 1992, 69 greyhounds were tested, all analysed as negative and in 1993 to date it has tested 63 dogs and again all of the dogs tested were analysed as negative. The Irish Coursing Club believes these figures illustrate its concern and indicate the element of controls exercised by it.

An interesting point came to light during my discussions with ICC officials, that the State-run Bord na gCon, the organisation with control over greyhound tracks, did not carry out any drug testing of greyhounds running at its tracks until after the ICC voluntary scheme was put into place. Legislation was introduced here to set up Bord na gCon and down the years while the public wagered on the outcome of races the State did not even to bother to require this organisation to introduce drug testing of competing dogs, which one would expect to be common practice. The point has been made by the ICC that the statistics quoted by Deputy Gregory are as a result of its voluntary introduction of drug testing in an attempt to ensure that its sport is run in a fair manner.

Deputy Gregory also mentioned that coursing clubs have been convicted of breaching the law. However, the ICC has informed me that last year one club, Edenderry, was found to have netted hares in advance of the date allowed under the licence. On being informed by the wildlife ranger that it was in breach of the law, the club members immediately released all the hares back to the wild. The club was however, charged and fined. The ICC states that this is the only instance of a coursing club found in breach of the law.

There was also mention of the suspension of Moate-Tubber Coursing Club for a three year period. The ICC states in regard to this club that it has indeed been disqualified by the ICC from running a coursing fixture for a three year period because it was considered by the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club that the meeting it had run on 15 October 1989 was not up to the required standard. The Moate-Tubber Club did not appeal against that decision and the ICC understands that this club does not intend to continue in existence.

Deputy Gregory also referred to the conviction of employees of Matt O'Donnell, a greyhound trainer, for the blooding of greyhounds with a hare. That conviction, I understand, is currently under appeal and is, therefore, sub judice. The record of the ICC in this area is to deal very severely with persons found to have engaged in the practice of blooding. The action taken by the ICC in the past includes a warning from attendance at greyhound tracks, greyhound sales and coursing meetings and disqualification from ownership of greyhounds.

Deputy Gregory referred to a letter he received from a farming family in New Ross stating that they often find hares with injuries which have been entangled in nets for some time. If that is the case the advice of the ICC and my advice to Deputy Gregory and to those who wrote to him is to bring the facts of the case to the Garda so that the matter will be properly dealt with and prosecutions brought. The danger of quoting from letters without stating their source is well known and there is always the suspicion that Deputies may receive fictitious letters. It would be helpful if the Deputy referred the letter to the Garda. Otherwise he shall admit that there is no name — or a fictitious name — on the letter.

Mr. Gregory

The name is included in the Official Report of the House.

Mr. Molloy

I did not hear the Deputy mention the name. Activities such as blooding are illegal and if there is evidence to sustain allegations it should be brought to the notice of the Garda. The Irish Coursing Club who is accused by Deputy Gregory in this matter has sought to defend its position and I am merely putting on the record its response to the points raised. It makes me wonder about the strong arguments made by Deputy Gregory in the course of his contribution.

Deputy Gregory said that in Wisconsin in the USA Irish greyhounds are banned from competing on dog tracks. I am informed by the ICC that there is no ban on Irish greyhounds in any State in America. I listened in good faith to what Deputy Gregory said and I accept in good faith what the ICC tells me. There is a conflict of evidence and it must be resolved to establish credibility in regard to the points made.

The greyhound industry is very large. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, said that £40 million worth of greyhounds are sold here every year and about 10,000 people are involved in the industry, including 8,000 in breeding and training and 2,000 working on tracks and so on. The industry exports about £20 million worth of greyhounds every year.

It is proposed that hare coursing be banned, but it would be very unfair to do so overnight. I look forward to the Minister's new Bill, the proposals on muzzling and the strict controls necessary. A veterinary inspector of the Department of Agriculture, or somebody of similar standing, should attend each coursing meeting and have full authority to stop it on the grounds that proper procedures are not applied, for instance, if the hares are weak or are being coursed more than once.

It is extraordinary that this "sport" has been accepted here as normal. It has been run on a voluntary basis with little statutory control. The State has been very negligent in this matter. It has been well aware down the years of people's concern at the cruelty aspect of coursing whereby hares are torn apart by dogs. None of us wants to see that practice continue. Thanks to Deputy Gregory who introduced this Bill, we have an opportunity to take action in this regard. I was a Minister and I have been long enough in the House to know that when Governments do not want to accept a Private Members' Bill they talk about bringing in their own Bill at a later stage. That device has often been used as an excuse, but I have every faith in the Minister, Deputy Walsh, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Shea, I believe they seriously intend to bring in a Bill to introduce proper controls and regulations in coursing. If they do not do so, I will support the next Bill brought forward to deal with the matter.

Deputy Gregory's Bill is far too short. The Bill has sought the guillotine solution to this matter rather than seeking to exercise controls which would eliminate the aspect of coursing that we do not like. I will reserve my position on this Bill and I look forward to seeing the Minister's Bill. I hope we will see it in the next session, before the Christmas recess.

Miss Harney

I congratulate Deputy Gregory on introducing this Bill even though it looks as if it will be defeated. Deputy Gregory can take satisfaction from the fact that by bringing this Bill to the Floor of the House he has forced the Government and the Irish Coursing Club to come forward with agreed proposals to muzzle dogs. Had it not been for this Bill that would not have happened. The kind of events outlined here by Deputy Gregory and others are not news to the Minister or to the Government. One of the problems with Irish society is that we sweep things under the carpet rather than confront the issues. We are afraid to confront either political or economic difficulties. I pay tribute to Deputy Gregory because without him we would not see the kind of measures now being proposed by the Government.

If the Irish Coursing Club were as concerned as are some of their members about cruelty to animals they could have introduced on a voluntary basis the measures now being imposed on them by the Government. They did not need to wait for legislation in order to muzzle dogs. I regret that action was not taken earlier by the Irish Coursing Club to deal with many of the difficulties that have been highlighted.

I will be voting in favour of the Bill. As Deputy Molloy said, our party is allowing a free vote. That is a healthy thing in this House. All too often Deputies are forced to vote in a manner incompatible with their convictions. Hare coursing is not a matter of fundamentals for any party. If the Government is beaten tomorrow night it will not be brought down. It will not damage the Government if 30 per cent of Government backbenchers vote in favour of this Bill. On the contrary, it will show a maturing attitude in this House. It will show we can implement the process that has been under way in most civilised democratic parliaments for many years, where representatives are entitled, on issues like capital punishment and so on, to vote in accordance with their convictions they are not expected to abide by a party Whip on matters which are not fundamental to the party. They can follow their convictions without being at any loss within their own parties.

It is not yet too late for other parties to reconsider their attitudes. It would be appalling if Deputies had to give up their positions in particular parties. I do not want to personalise this, but like everyone else I have been reading the newspapers.

Hare coursing is not a question of fundamentals. People do not join political parties on the basis of whether they are for or against enclosed live hare coursing. Although animal welfare is of concern to large numbers of people within all parties in this House and in the country at large, there are different opinions on this issue. This debate has been calm and reasonable because there are two different points of view. I have attended a coursing meeting and I occasionally go to Shelbourne Park. I enjoy greyhound racing. Most of the people involved in coursing have become immune to the cruelty, because for them it is traditional. Many people will say that it is not an Irish tradition, that the British introduced it 175 years ago, but 175 years is a long enough tradition. Greyhound racing is a traditional activity in certain rural areas. Many of the participants in the activity have become immune to the cruelty that the rest of us see in what is described as a sport.

The argument put forward in favour of enclosed live hare coursing is that all we are doing is re-enacting nature — the hunter and the hunted — and that it is good for jobs and an industry worth £40 million employing 8,000 people. Economic justification is not good enough reason to continue this cruel activity. One would never suggest that cruelty to children, if it was good economic business, could be justifiable. Nobody in this House ever took the view that economic considerations were a justification for supporting apartheid in South Africa. Members of all parties were very critical of other Governments for looking at it from the point of view of their own economic welfare.

Many people say that coursing hounds is essential if we are to ensure proper breeding strains for dogs who race the track. People say that there are other forms of sport that are just as cruel or worse and I agree with that. Whatever about the arguments of those involved in the activity, photographs speak volumes. Some of the photographs we have seen in our newspapers tell us more than anything else just how awful the activity is. I have met many coursing people. It is a big activity in my constituency in Saggart in County Dublin. I know many of the people involved and they are not cruel people. However, a photograph speaks volumes about the nature of this activity, which is quite unacceptable.

As Deputy Gregory said, live hare coursing is banned in virtually all European countries except Britain, Ireland and Portugal. There are heavy fines and imprisonment terms for those who engage in it. It is banned in Canada, the US and Australia. In documentation I received I was interested to read how successful drag coursing is in Victoria in Australia and how it has enhanced the greyhound industry.

Society has certain norms. There comes a time when the average citizen says "we have had enough". The average Irish citizen has had enough of live hare coursing. The hare is used as a live rope in a tug of war and is torn apart by the dogs. Deputy McGahon was involved in live hare coursing. I remember what he said last Wednesday and how shocking it was. He said that listening to the hare die was like hearing a child squeal and that he just could not bear it. We must listen to people like him who have been involved in the industry.

I thank the media for their coverage of this minority pursuit. Most Irish people have never been to a coursing meeting but have formed their opinions from the education they receive, particularly through the media. I pay tribute to the media who have been subjected to certain pressures regarding the publicity they have given to coursing meetings.

Last Wednesday Deputy John Browne of Fine Gael said that the media was biased. On the following day when we were discussing the sexual offences Bill I suggested jocosely that he wanted to muzzle the media. Deputy Browne was very upset by my comments. I withdraw them and apologise for causing him offence. Deputy Browne certainly does not want to stop the media but he felt they were biased in reporting on coursing meetings. My comment was not serious but nonetheless Deputy Browne was offended. I do not infer that Deputy Browne wishes to muzzle the media.

The media reporting of the February meeting in Cloonanna this year made most Irish people wish to put an end to this cruel pursuit. Fifty-one hares were mutilated and killed in three days. I cannot see how that can be a sport. We need to distinguish between a hunting activity, for example, fox hunting, angling or shooting and what I might describe as gathering people together to watch animals being killed in activities such as bullfighting, coursing, dogfighting or cock fighting. There is a distinction to be drawn. Some people will argue that the next step will be to stop angling. There is a huge distinction to be drawn between a hunting activity and gathering people together to watch animals literally being slaughtered.

I understand that efforts will be made to design a suitable muzzle. I wonder how realistic this is. Many hares are terrified and die during the netting period so it is during that period that many of them are in danger. Obviously the muzzle will not make a difference in those circumstances.

The people involved in the industry, as it is called, must be distinguished from the activity and the perception most people have of what it is they do. It is often said that we encourage or discourage certain activity in the laws we make, but when it comes to certain matters people behave in accordance with their conscience. If cruelty to animals is legal, how then can we draw a distinction between that and other forms of cruelty? How do we say we want this to be a caring, humane society where there is not cruelty meted out to animals or to people if, by the laws we enact, we encourage giving legal status to the killing, terrorisation and mutilation of hares? I do not believe we can draw that distinction and it becomes very difficult for those who endeavour to do so.

The ending of live hare coursing would be good for the greyhound industry for two reasons. Many people would not go to Shelbourne Park or Harold's Cross because of the association between cruelty to hares and the greyhound industry. Many people will not attend genuine sporting meetings because of the association with live hare coursing. That is a pity because the industry would gain enormously by their attendance.

Companies are reluctant to sponsor greyhound meetings because of the inference that by so doing, they are putting financial resources in the way of the greyhound industry, that in some way the company would become associated with live hare coursing and cruelty to animals. I understand that is a very common case advanced by many financial institutions and business interests against sponsorship of the activities of the greyhound industry. The industry is experiencing great difficulty in gaining sponsorship for many of its events.

Within the context of the debate in this House it is also important that we adopt a reasonable attitude to each other. While that has been a feature of the debate in this House, it has not been a feature of debate outside it. Sometimes people, even those who work hard for peace, become obsessed by their hobby or interest. They literally become violent in their obsession about cruelty to the hare. We have seen some such examples. At least one colleague in this House has been subjected to intimidating mail from some of the opponents of live hare coursing. I regret that very much. I cannot understand how those who want to end cruelty to animals can justify writing intimidating and untrue letters to Members of the Oireachtas or anybody else. Rather than achieve their aim, or winning support for their cause, they drive people away. Certainly they render some people very reluctant to support anything with which they are associated. Equally those who defend live hare coursing can be just as unrealistic and unsympathetic to a different point of view. We should learn from the experience in Northern Ireland. We must respect diversity, respect difference of opinion, realise that those from whom we differ are not necessarily bad people who are out to get us, but rather people who simply take a different point of view and want the freedom to express it. Was it Daniel O'Connell who said that, by giving others freedom, one does not diminish one's own but rather enhances it? It is good that we are debating this subject in this House and that there is a debate nationwide.

For as long as live hare coursing is legal it will be reported by the media. We cannot expect the media to censor it, to prevent people seeing what goes on. There are some members of the Irish Coursing Club who take the view that it is all the fault of the media, that if only the media would stop reporting these meetings, stop taking photographs, the problem would go away. The pressure might be lessened but the problem will not go away. I am not a great advocate of using opinion polls to back up arguments because they can sway in either direction. Indeed the fact that a minority might take a different view is no reason something should not happen. According to opinion polls approximately 80 per cent of the Irish public are against this activity. Even if it were the other way round, even if 20 per cent were against and 80 per cent in favour, I would still believe it to be cruel and wrong. We should follow the pattern in most other countries.

My party will allow a free vote on this issue, although a majority of the party may well vote in favour of Deputy Gregory's Bill. The reason we are having a free vote is that we agreed unanimously that that was the best course of action to take, that it would be wrong to expect people to vote against their convictions. I conclude by urging other parties to do likewise. It would be good for this House, good for politics and a great example to the public who experience difficulty in understanding why we must vote against things on which we feel so strongly when they are not fundamental matters.

I compliment Deputy Gregory again. Even if his Bill is not passed he has achieved much in the response from Government. This would not have come about without this Bill having been introduced. On that account he can be satisfied he has done a good day's work.

Mr. Ferris

I should like to share my time with Deputies E. O'Keeffe and Davern, if that is possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that satisfactory? It is agreed.

Mr. Ferris

I come from South Tipperary which has a very proud tradition in coursing and I resent anybody suggesting that this is a sleezy sport, a sub-culture or anything of that nature. From experience in my constituency and my knowledge of the importance of the activity to the county I know that is not true.

My county this week has gained one of the highest honours within the greyhound industry, with the dog named "Ringa Hustle" which won the Wimbledon Derby on Saturday evening last, having been bred in County Tipperary by Liam and Sarah O'Brien of Dundrum, owned by Philip and Vera Heffernan. They are indeed proud today and would be annoyed if anybody implied they were in some way involved in an industry intrinsically linked to coursing and criticised for their activity, which has continuously enjoyed a high degree of control particularly in Clonmel.

It is also important to note that a coursing Derby was won in a particular year by a dog called "Pyramid Club" that never once killed a hare. There is no question that anybody involved in coursing wants to be involved in the killing of hares. As a matter of fact the greatest cheer of all in Clonmel is to be heard when the hare escapes.

Members of every party, whatever their personal point of view, need to realise that there are two sides to every story. It is appropriate that people be afforded an opportunity of putting their view on the record, irrespective of whether it be on a Private Members' Bill or a Government Bill. As Labour Party Whip, I should point out that we discussed this at length. We are listening to the advice of our Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry who has suggested that this Bill is flawed. The Minister and his Department have a wealth of legal advice available to them. If the Bill is flawed, then let us talk about its flaws. There is no point in passing a Bill that may suit some people's objectives and then having to amend it.

I welcome this opportunity to speak about the issue of hare coursing, which is not a simple one and cannot be divided as between town and country. It is popular to suggest that a person living in Dublin holds a different view from someone living in the country. Neither can it be divided as between animal lovers and animal haters, despite what some people may think, or considered to be a pastime confined to any one socio-economic grouping. People who are unemployed or wealthy, the religious, business people, indeed, people from all walks of life have an interest in this sport, which dates back many centuries. There is however a strong rural lobby in favour of coursing.

I have received some extraordinary letters in which I was advised and indeed threatened to adopt a different line; but in cases such as this one has to listen to all sides of the argument and make one's own mind up. As my party's whip, I have an obligation to ensure that we work together as a unit.

People who course greyhounds take good care of their dogs and, indeed, the hare. My colleague, Deputy Brian Fitzgerald, indicated last week that it is important to the industry that the hares are healthy. Therefore they take great care of the hare and like to express their pleasure in doing so. Approximately 10,000 people derive a livelihood, directly or indirectly, from the greyhound industry, while approximately 20,000 greyhounds are exported all over the world. We have a reputation for producing dogs with stamina. This does not mean however that the industry is perfect, that there is no room for improvement or that we condone what happened at Clounanna, which was a disgrace. I am pleased that the Minister and the Minister of State present in the House have taken action to ensure that there will be no repeat.

Many communities, including my own, benefit significantly from the greyhound industry in terms of employment in tourism and exports. It is worth in excess of £3 million to the town of Clonmel. I am obliged, as a public representative in south Tipperary, to take this into consideration. The international reputation of our greyhounds is based on their speed and performance. Those involved in the industry claim that coursing blood lines are intrinsically linked with the pedigrees of our greyhounds and their performance on the track. If hare coursing is banned — this Bill would also outlaw hare coursing clubs — our exports of greyhounds would suffer considerably.

It is necessary to carry out a thorough review of the industry and such a review is underway. I have to take the word of my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, that a comprehensive examination of all the legislation dealing with hare coursing is being carried out within the Department as part of that review. The Minister of State has suggested that it would be inappropriate to amend the Wildlife Act if people believe there is cruelty, and there is some suggestion that there is. If restrictions are to be imposed, this could be done by way of amendment to the Protection of Animals Act. It has also been suggested that the Wildlife Service should patrol coursing meetings. Perhaps charges could be levied on the greyhound industry to meet the cost involved to satisfy those who are concerned.

I agree with the Minister of State when he says that the kill is unacceptable and he is taking action in this regard. The Irish Coursing Club has indicated that it is prepared to accept the concept of muzzling. It is essential that a proper muzzle be designed soon and that trials be carried out at meetings in the forthcoming coursing season to ensure that the hounds are not damaged in any way by the muzzles. The hare should also be protected. It should be remembered that their first instinct is to escape. As I said, the greatest cheer goes up when the hare escapes.

The capturing of hares will not be excluded under the Bill. We would have people continuing to capture hares and treating them in a cruel fashion. Indeed, the industry would be forced underground and illegal hare coursing meetings would be held. This already happens in the case of badger batting, otter hunting and fox hunting out of season. People take part in a range of other illegal sports which had been legal in the past. Just passing simple legislation like this we will not address the problem and could do immeasurable damage to an important national industry. If we work together in Government we should be able to bring forward legislation which would be of benefit to the industry and to those genuinely concerned about the welfare of helpless animals. I have no doubt that Deputy Gregory is genuinely concerned, but I only hope that he will not seek to ban fly paper and other products which involve cruelty to animals and insects.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

I am glad to have this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this legislation. I come from an area in north Cork where hare coursing is a major industry. We have many fine clubs and many people give of their time to develop those clubs. They are dedicated and caring people and have no wish to damage the hare. It is unfair to suggest otherwise. Those involved in hare coursing have no interest in killing or damaging the hare. They are animal lovers and are very proud of the contribution they have made in improving the industry.

Recently the Occupiers Liability Bill was debated in the House. That Bill was presented by Deputy Deenihan and I am still of the view that it was a good Bill. Coursing clubs in my area have indemnified the farming community and property owners by taking out insurance and have sought their permission, which is further proof that they have adopted a caring approach. I am proud to list the areas concerned. These include Glanworth, Mitchelstown, Mallow, Fermoy, Rathcormack, Kildorrery, Ballymacoda, Churchtown South and many others which are too numerous to mention.

I have received the largest volume of correspondence I have ever received in favour of hare coursing; it breaks down to a ratio of 5:1. I should further state that the people are being asked to ban an activity which has been part of their culture and tradition. Will the Spanish be asked to ban bull fighting, which is a more cruel sport?

I come from the heart of rural Ireland and I recall seeing, as I walked to the local national school, coveys of partridges, a game bird. That sport was outlawed, but despite this we do not have one partridge in my area. Those who fought to have this sport outlawed and the conservationists no longer worry about the partridge. Furthermore, the lark no longer graces our land along with many other birds and animals. These are now protected by Government order.

If this Bill is passed there will be little or no interest in the hare. The only groups who have an interest in preserving the hare are hare coursing clubs and those who have an interest in the sport. The hare may well become as rare in our landscape as the birds I have already mentioned. A few years ago otter hunting was outlawed by order and since then those who pushed to have this sport outlawed have shown no interest in the otter. None of the Greens has walked our river banks or expressed their concern about the otter. I can speak with authority on that matter as I own a large tract of land which borders a river where otter hunting used to take place. Nobody cares about these animals any more. The people who were involved in that sport were interested in caring for and preserving those animals.

Mr. Sargent

They were killed off.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

The promoters of this Bill are proposing to destroy a part of rural life. If people were more interested in this type of field sport I do not think our level of crime and vandalism would be as high as it is today. Many of our cities and towns have become like downtown Chicago where the elderly are attacked and young people go joyriding in stolen cars. The people who engage in such crimes have few other interests. Many of us remember when we went hunting on Sundays, Wednesdays and Saturdays. That was a better type of lifestyle than the lifestyle many people have today.

Much has been said about coursing and the large number of hares killed at meetings. Changes in farming practices and rich grass lands have led to the destruction of more hares than anything else. It has also meant that hares are not as vibrant or lively as the hares which were used at coursing meetings 20 or 30 years ago. Once the hares are captured they are placed in cages inside the wire at coursing fields. Efforts are made to ensure that first class training for hares is carried out before coursing trials. Unfortunately, the efforts of those dedicated coursing enthusiasts have often been put at naught by the "antis" who have released the hares on the eve of a coursing meeting. If the ordinary procedures were followed without any interference there would not be the same number of hares killed at coursing meetings. The people who release these hares have much to answer for. Several coursing meetings used to be held in areas two, three or four miles from where I live. Prior to the meetings, dedicated gamekeepers trained the hares late into the night. In recent years some clubs have had their hares released at night by the "antis". This means that other hares have to be captured a few days before the meeting and there is no time to train them. Coursing clubs have always ensured that the hares are well trained. Unfortunately, their efforts have often been thwarted. This has contributed to the problems about the number of hares killed at meetings. The training of hares has always been a very skilled job and it is not possible to train them in a short period of time. The people involved in the greyhound industry and coursing do not have the financial back-up to employ a night watchman to keep away those people, who are mainly from outside the area, and who illegally release hares at night.

A specific period should be set for the time the hares can be retained by coursing clubs. There should be a minimum length of time for the holding of hares inside wires. I should like to know what vested interests these new animal lovers have. Ireland can boast of having the finest field sports of any country in the world, for example, beagling and foxhunting. I do not know of anyone who has callously killed hares, foxes, otters or any other wildlife species merely for the sake of destruction. Last week a Bill was brought before this House dealing with an issue which is more alien than foxhunting or coursing. Unfortunately, I was not present in the House to contribute to the debate on that Bill.

I agree that there can be weaknesses in any system. Perhaps the codes of practice for coursing could be updated by providing for example, that the hares are placed on the coursing track for a minimum number of days prior to the trials and coursing and are properly fed — it is very important that they are given oats and water — that the gamekeepers are properly trained and that an expert will visit the coursing field once a week, supervise all trials and coursing meetings and inspect the hares. In addition, the hares should be allowed to run a minimum distance before the dogs are released by an experienced slipper. I have reservations about muzzling dogs as it could damage the dogs and also lead to the dogs damaging the hares if he gets too close to them. Another problem is that some farmers are reluctant to make suitable sites available for coursing meetings. Many of these farmers have received threats that glass and nails will be thrown on their land if they make it available for coursing meetings.

I am somewhat surprised that Deputy Gregory introduced this Bill. He is a Deputy for whom I have a lot of regard. I admire him for the many issues he has raised. I believe he is having some fun for introducing this Bill. I know from the smile on his face that he is enjoying the debate. The House is in turmoil over this issue and it has been suggested that there should be a free vote on the Bill. The Deputy could have introduced a more relevant Bill dealing with some of the problems in Dublin rather than introducing a Bill on hare coursing.

Mr. Davern

Hunting has, by and large, been part of the Irish way of life since the time of Na Fianna and Cuchulain. This sport is not confined to rural Ireland only. This Bill is the tip of the iceberg; it is the first step in an attempt to ban all field sports. Earlier this year we saw the total confusion caused by people opposed to hunt racing at the Grand National, one of the greatest hunt races in the world. I am delighted Deputy Harney referred to people who have written scurrilous and filthy letters to people who support coursing. I know that Deputy Gregory and Deputy Sargent would not like to be associated with these letters. I would not like to be responsible for my actions if I met the people who wrote these letters.

Mr. Ferris

A blood sport.

Mr. Davern

It would be some type of blood sport. I think I know the person who wrote these letters in my area. That person has a sick mind and needs treatment. The Garda investigated the matter and the person was brought to court but, unfortunately, the person was not convicted.

Deputy Gregory said that people who were cruel to children were also cruel to animals and vice versa. I hope the Deputy did not mean — I am sure he did not — that people involved in field sports, particularly coursing, are cruel to their own children and to other children. I hope he did not mean to imply that people involved in coursing are cruel to other people and to children in any way. That is the clear implication of what the Deputy said in his speech, which I took the trouble to read——

Mr. Gregory

In Florida?

Mr. Davern

On my way home from Florida, where I enjoyed many race track meetings. Seventy seven per cent of the dogs which win at those meetings come from our greyhound industry.

Mr. Gregory

The Deputy did not attend any coursing meetings there — they would not allow them.

Mr. Davern

No, but I read about violence on the streets.

Mr. Gregory

I am glad the Deputy equates coursing with violence.

Mr. Davern

Perhaps the Deputy should be more concerned about the attacks on tourists in Dublin.

Mr. Gregory

The Deputy——

Mr. Davern

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy in possession, without interruption, please.

Mr. Davern

The people involved in coursing have never shown anything but love for the greyhound and hares. Anyone who has attended a coursing meeting will know that all the people at that meeting cheer spontaneously when the hare escapes into the hatch after he has been turned by the greyhound. They do not want to see hares killed.

I agree that the meeting at Clounanna was a disaster. A number of aspects of that meeting have to be investigated, for example, were the hares fit, were they properly looked after and properly fed? One cannot make a decision on hare coursing on the basis of one disastrous meeting. I ask the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry to investigate whether, as a result of our milder winters, hares are coming into season much earlier. If this is so, perhaps the dates of meetings will have to be changed.

Coursing is a part of rural life. All of us who grew up in rural Ireland went hunting with our dogs on Saturdays. We did not go hunting to see hares and rabbits killed. When we were young we enjoyed the thrill of seeing the dog at work and especially when it would take the scent. It is the same for those who go shooting — they enjoy seeing a good dog working, raising the pheasant and then retrieving the kill. This is what makes the sport enjoyable, not the kill or any other part.

It is unfortunate when hares are killed, but the hares which are released subsequent to coursing meetings are healthier than when originally snared. They have been properly fed and treated well, unlike the rabbits. At present the country is overrun with rabbits and myxomatosis is becoming more prevalent as prolific breeding has weakened the breed.

What has happened to foxhunting? People are no longer shooting foxes to get the pelt and we now have a plethora of them. The foxes are losing their natural ability to hunt because of the scarcity of the wildlife on which they live and now they are scavenging in gardens in towns. I suggest that Deputies will see more foxes killed on the road than ever before. Previously foxes would not come near light or near urban areas but they do so now because there are too many foxes in the countryside. It is acknowledged in animal reservations throughout Africa that there has to be a system of culling. That is nature: we have to cut back on the numbers so that there is sufficient for the others to feed on.

I was sorry to read that Deputy Gregory said that Irish dogs were banned in Wisconsin. That is untrue.

Mr. Gregory

I did not say that.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy's script states that Irish dogs are banned in Wisconsin. As Deputy Ferris said of the six dogs in the English final six were bred in Ireland, of which four came from a coursing breed.

It has been suggested that we should have drag hunting. It is like Coca Cola which is advertised as the "real thing"— drag in any form is not the real thing. Nobody is drinking blood. Anyone who has gone to coursing meetings will know that the cry is for the hare, once it has been decided which dog has won. However, there is a question about proper slipping methods — the same applies in GAA matches when unfair decisions are made, for example the referee in the Leitrim match made the decision to allow play to continue and play the advantage rule. That was unfair.

Mr. Sargent

That is not the case.

Mr. Davern

If the Deputy was ever at good GAA matches, he would know that some of them involve just a little more than sport, but I would not expect the Deputy to know too much in that line.

It is part of what we are, it is part of our tradition. This Bill is not just about hare coursing, it is about stopping foxhunting, shooting and fishing. There is a combination coming together that will not only destroy what we are but damage a large section of our tourist industry.

The intelligence of the Irish show-jumper and the cross country horse derives from the fact that they are natural hunting horses. They hunt over ground for foxes. In Germany they only allow drag hunting and not foxhunting and now the complaint is that the hunters are disturbing the insects when the horses cross the land. The Germans, as a consequence, buy our horses for their ability over natural terrain. We gain from the situation in Germany. We should ensure that we do not lose our tradition.

While I accept there has to be an improvement, I question the sudden enthusiasm for muzzling as a solution. In fact, a muzzled dog will cause more damage to a hare than an instant kill because it will either be clawed by the dog or damaged by the muzzle. I would prefer to see more research being carried out on the effects of a muzzle, not only on the greyhound but on the hare.

Mr. Sargent

Ba mhaith liom mo chuid ama a roinnt le Deputy McManus.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Sargent

Coursing is cruel. Which Member will deny that statement? Coursing people admit that coursing is cruel — and I know quite a few coursing people. I have lived in Balbriggan, north County Dublin, for 11 years and I have often discussed live hare coursing. Balbriggan is the venue for the largest coursing meeting in Dublin but it is also the venue for the largest protest against coursing in Dublin every year. Let us have no more whingeing about city folk having a go at their country cousins.

We have hare coursing in Saggart, County Dublin, where muzzling was tried and failed. At Ballough, Donabate — I can produce the programme to show Members — the photograph I have in my possession of a mutilated hare was taken. With other members of the Irish Council Against Blood Sports I have been threatened in writing with death unless we stopped highlighting the cruelty of live hare coursing. The Garda Síochána have taken up the matter.

It seems that the Government do not want to do anything and at the same time want to be seen to be bending under the pressure of 80 per cent of the Irish people who clearly want an end to the coursing of live hares.

The ridiculous suggestion from the Government that greyhounds going coursing should be muzzled has been consistently rejected in the past by the Irish Coursing Club, not because it will still allow hares to be injured and die from fright as they do, but because muzzling is cruel and dangerous for the dogs.

Perhaps the House needs to be reminded of the position of the Irish Coursing Club on muzzling as clearly stated in November 1987 when Mr. Gay Byrne interviewed Mr. Matt Bruton, chairman of the ICC on the "Late Late Show". The following is a short extract from the interview:

Gay Byrne: Is it not on for dogs to be muzzled?

Matt Bruton: The answer to that quite simply is that it was tried some years ago. An official trial session was held by the Irish Coursing Club at the South County Dublin meeting in Saggart, as it was then, and it was a total disaster.

Gay Byrne: Will the dogs not chase?

Matt Bruton: In one instance the dog broke his neck. Now I must explain to the audience — they wouldn't appreciate it. The dogs had wire muzzles on them similar to what racing greyhounds currently wear on our tracks. And when a dog is driving in to catch a hare or to turn a hare as the case is, obviously when he has no muzzle, he can slide along the ground if he misses his drive. When the muzzle is on, the effect is that he stubs his nose into the ground and consequently he will break his neck.

Mr. Jerry Desmond, Secretary of the ICC, has made his views on muzzling greyhounds clear. He said:

Trials were carried out and we found that the hares were being damaged by the muzzles. Hares find it very difficult to recover from injuries.

A leading greyhound authority, Mr. John Martin, did not mince his words either when he said:

Those who advocate muzzling know nothing about the nature of the sport. The risk of injury to the dogs is obvious. Injury can be caused to hares causing prolonged and agonising deaths.

Aside from injuries to a dog and hare there is the matter of terrorising the hare. Many die from fright. We should bear in mind that to terrorise an animal is an offence under our Protection of Animals Act. If muzzling is introduced are they to be used in training and trials as well as on coursing day? Who will supervise all this? Will it be the Irish Coursing Club stewards, as previously, that is self-supervision, or will the taxpayer be obliged to pay for a special supervisory body? What of the dog's motivation to pursue its quarry? Muzzling can only lead to a massive increase in blooding incidents. This is fact, not fiction.

There is only one answer to the coursing problems and that is an outright ban. This is not a debate about whether or not we ascribe human feelings to a timid wild animal as Deputy Dukes would have us believe. Enough medical research has been undertaken for us to know how coursing affects hares regardless of the muzzling issue.

I know what goes on before the Annual Park Meeting — the public coursing event — because I live in a town which has had coursing on and off since the British army garrison in Gormanston Camp introduced it in the last century. I wish to have that recorded. Enclosed coursing was originally a very British sport in this country and in Britain it is now outlawed, which goes to show how much it brought shame to those who developed it. I would ask the Deputies who keep telling us this is a traditional sport to please read up on Irish history. Of course, if some evidence exists that Fionn Mac Cumhaill was a British army private in the 19th century, then we can all think again.

I would ask Deputy Brian Fitzgerald from County Meath to please show some respect for the memory of Wolfe Tone and stop telling us coursing will unite Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. As an Irishman I am deeply hurt and insulted to think that I must allow hares to be terrorised for the sake of gambling and sadism, to promote greater understanding between Irish people who go to different Churches and those who go to none.

I am not the only person who could be offended by Deputy Fitzgerald's remarks. In a letter to party leaders this month the Methodist Conference secretary, Mr. Edmund Mawhinney writes:

In the opinion of the Conference the practice of enclosed hare coursing clearly involves unnecessary suffering to defenceless animals and it requests that members of your Party be allowed freedom of conscience in voting on this Bill.

In my own town of Balbriggan, the local branch of the Irish Council Against Blood Sports is led by joint patrons, local clergy from both the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland in Balbriggan. What we are opposing is a barbaric activity supported by taxpayers' money. I understand that £28,000 was given to coursing clubs last year just to reward them for releasing the hares.

I want to tell the House what happens to a hare before the "big day" and the cruelty involved, quite apart from the kill which is obviously an abomination too. At the beginning of the season children are sent out to the fields to beat the hedges and round up the unsuspecting hares. One vet writing in a coursing publication from Abbeyfeale Coursing Club about the effects of netting on hares stated:

We have regularly got (or found) strained backs, dislocated hips, broken thighs, broken ribs, cuts in webs, we even got a broken neck and another with his ear hanging off.

Deputy Dukes could also learn from the expertise of the same vet who writes:

It is impossible to completely avoid stress in hares once you manhandle them and take them out of their natural environment. Stress can come in many shapes and forms and as long as you have the hare in captivity he is prone to it — resulting in his disability and even death at times.

This same vet also is very revealing in his advice to coursing clubs regarding the health of hares in captivity. He writes:

Hares have absolutely no resistance to infection — once the skin is broken that is the end of him.

Tagging the hares' ears is a common practice to ensure they are not coursed at other places. The vet admits that:

When it came to coursing time most of the tagged ears were badly infected, in fact some were so bad and the infection so bad that the tags actually fell out through the resulting holes. The following year I had no option but to change my tactics, so instead of inserting a tag at entry, I just punched a small hole in the ear with a leather punch and sprayed both sides with an antibiotic spray, with the intention of having all the holes fully healed by the time of the trials.

He went on to say:

When I went to insert the tags, I was horrified to find that more than half the newly punched holes were again badly infected so I had to tag most of them in a new part of the ear. I then realised that unlike cows and calves, hares are continually washing and cleaning themselves and so have a ready means of transferring infection from their contaminated feet to their ears.

I urge all parties and Members in the House to examine their consciences. Muzzling will not stop cruelty in coursing. In fact, coursing people locally have told me that blooding will have to increase to keep the dogs keen on chasing the live hare. I particularly urge those Ministers who have championed the cause of animals over the years to act now according to their word. The Minister for Defence and the Marine, Deputy Andrews, the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy M. Higgins, the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Quinn, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt, and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Stagg, are all renowned for their commitment to the campaign to abolish coursing. The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Stagg, in a statement to a rally on hare coursing in Balbriggan said:

On behalf of myself and the Labour Party I want to express my full and unequivocal support for the banning of hare coursing in Ireland. It is a travesty that hare coursing is referred to as "a sport". It is a sadistic, cruel and barbarous activity and it is a discredit to our society that such activities remain legal. The vast majority of Irish people want this activity banned and the Labour Party commits itself to working with any other political party in Dáil Éireann to bring about an end to hare coursing.

Where are the vast majority of Deputies in Labour and Fianna Fáil who say they are opposed to coursing? I urge them all to vote for this Wildlife Bill and allow it to be amended — if they wish — on Committee Stage. I would ask them not to be deaf to the people of Ireland. I would ask them to remember that the Irish Council Against Blood Sports has branches in many rural areas in the four provinces and its headquarters are in Cork. Listen to the cry of the hare at a coursing meeting — an innocent victim of coursing — and vote for the Bill because this is what you are voting against.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is out of order. Would the Deputy kindly turn off that instrument?

Ms McManus

I want to speak in support of Deputy Gregory's Bill. I listened with interest to Deputy Davern evoking Fionn Mac Cumhaill in defence of his position. The proponents of hare coursing claim that hare coursing, both park and open, is an ancient Irish sport which has been enjoyed by our fellow country men from pre-Christian times. I have no doubt a similar argument was put forward when cock fighting or dog fighting was being made illegal. Indeed, bear baiting had some kind of tradition but that did not alter the fact that it was a cruel sport. The House will be aware that in ancient times there was a sport known as "throwing the Christians to the lions" and probably somebody stood up in the Senate then to argue the case that it was not really cruel. Nowadays the Italians have banned live hare coursing. They probably let their blood loose in other directions as regards songbirds and so on, but that is another story. The fact that we are in a minority in Europe in allowing live hare coursing is something we need to remember when we hear some of the more outrageous comments from people who support this activity.

I agree with Deputy Dukes that we should not impose human values on the animal world. I am not concerned about the effects of live hare coursing on the animal world but I am concerned about its impact on humans and what it says about us tolerating such an activity. I am not a vegetarian, I have no objection to fishing, to the Grand National — except that it should be managed properly — or other sports that people enjoy, but cruelty is inherent in hare coursing. It is a spectacle based on cruelty watched by humans. Giving licence to enjoy cruelty against animals makes a statement about how we relate to one another. This has nothing to do with whether those who attend hare coursing meetings care for their children, it relates to the way society operates. Deciding what society should tolerate in regard to animals is nothing new in respect of enacting legislation. That matter comes up for discussion from time to time and I am glad Deputy Gregory gave us an opportunity to discuss it today.

Many traditions have been consigned to history as society progressed, that is what progress is about. We should not be afraid to recognise that change is inherent in every facet of our life, including sport. In this instance, we should not run away from the fact that the killing of hares is an integral part of hare coursing. There was a fatality rate of 33 per cent at the premier event of the coursing year at Clounanna in February. The scarcity of hares in recent years — a fact recognised by coursing clubs — is obviously giving rise to the use of poor quality and sick hares at coursing events. It would be interesting to read the reports of those clubs on the Clounanna meeting. Recoursing is not uncommon and things are done that should not be done. A journalist of the sporting press stated that it will no longer be possible to cover up the bad meetings which, unfortunately, crop up from time to time. Bad meetings involve the coursing of sick hares, the doping of greyhounds and the recoursing of hares, sometimes on the same day.

The Irish Coursing Club rules stipulate that, immediately after the conclusion of a coursing meeting hares, should be earmarked and released back to the wild. It has been stated in this House that those rules are broken and many hares never make it back to the wild. That poor level of regulation leads me to believe that, apart from the eloquent argument against muzzling put forward by a number of Fianna Fáil Deputies, muzzling is not the answer. Not only does it not protect the hare and damage the dogs, it may prove unenforceable. Some time ago a Bill relating to the muzzling of certain breeds of dogs and keeping dogs under control was passed in this House which resulted in an improvement but the regulations are not monitored fully and people are not complying with them. If it is difficult to monitor control on city streets, I can imagine how much more difficult it would be to monitor it at rural coursing events.

Another aspect of hare coursing which, no matter what regulations are introduced, will be difficult to stamp out is the practice of blooding which involves the feeding of live animals — usually rabbits — to dogs. That practice is illegal but it is taking place. The argument put forward that we cannot legislate against it, because it is something which people want to do is extraordinary. People would like to engage in many illegal acts but the law prevents it. That is what a civilised society is all about.

We must recognise that attitudes have changed in relation to hare coursing. For much of rural Ireland hare coursing has provided a much loved and celebrated social and sporting focus. It is a part of rural life, although that is not the case in County Wicklow. I am told no Wicklow farmer could afford to feed a greyhound. Whatever the reason, I acknowledge that hare coursing has been part of rural life here, but that, like every other facet of Irish life it is changing. It cannot be allowed to continue and flourish. There is a perception that coursing without a live hare cannot develop because it would involve a change in attitude and that people involved in hare coursing cannot adapt to such change. The idea of replacing the live hare with technology is feasible. There is a model for this in other countries and it would offer an opportunity for those who enjoy coursing to do so with the blessing of the public, which is important, because people are conscious of the cruelty which is part and parcel of hare coursing.

The defensiveness shown by organisers highlights a rection to the new awareness. The fact that some TDs must go to hare coursing meetings incognito to discover what takes place speaks for itself, because TDs could never be described as shrinking violets in public places. The defensiveness shown by organisers is also worth noting. Members of the media who have attended such meetings to see the cruelty involved have been subjected to threats and harassment. But that type of suppression is not effective in the long term. Modern technology and communications ensure that the reality of hare coursing cannot be concealed and no amount of invoking the name of Fionn Mac Cumhaill will change that reality. Technology could provide the excitement and element of competition in hare coursing at present and this is evident in Australia, which is not known as a country of wimps. Its white community, who originated from convicts and settlers, would be surprised if anyone thought they were afraid to face up to the harsh realities of life. The Aboriginal community have always maintained close contact with the natural landscape and its wild animals. Australia has successfully made the leap sought in this Bill and which will continue to be demanded in regard to taking the element of casual cruelty out of hare coursing. We have not been told why we cannot do that. Arguments against muzzling have been put forward from both sides of the House, but those relating to replacing the hare with a lure were not dealt with.

If we take the live hare out of coursing we will set a new direction, not just in relation to the animal world but in how we view ourselves and society as a whole. Other countries have made that leap successfully, we should do the same. The fears expressed by the pro-hare coursing lobby were, doubtless, expressed elsewhere but if those fears are not faced down once and for all, the cruelty attached to hare coursing will continue to damage our tourism business and our sporting traditions or simply the way we relate to each other as human and humane beings.

I congratulate Deputy Gregory for introducing this Bill, which should be supported. We can learn from other countries how to move forward instead of being stuck in a rut and stating blindly that tradition must always rule. I ask Deputies to support this Bill.

Debate adjourned.