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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 2 Nov 1993

Vol. 435 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Telecommunications Bill, 1993: Second Stage.

(Limerick East): I move: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.”

The announcement by Telecom Éireann that the rescheduling of telephone charges had led to a reduction in the use of telephones compounds the fiasco engineered by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and Telecom Éireann when the rescheduling was announced last May. Today at Question Time, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications confirmed there had been an 8 per cent reduction in the number of calls made from telephones in the residential sector and the duration of calls had decreased by 6 per cent. When Telecom Éireann originally costed its rescheduling programme it indicated that the gap between increases in concessions represented a £15 million annual loss to the company, even though it hoped to recover this loss by an increase in business. The Telecom Éireann survey on the first four weeks of the operation of the new schedule of charges shows a loss of £750,000 per week. I have no doubt that the former patterns of usage will reassert themselves very quickly but if the pattern of losses were to continue the extra annual loss would be £39 million. I believe this will not happen and very quickly we will return to the opening position of the telecommunications debate which commenced last May. Previous usage patterns will reassert themselves and then, as the Minister knows quite well, consumers' bills will increase by very significant amounts. The Minister cannot have it both ways: he accepts that there will either be a reduction in usage which will lead to continuing losses in Telecom Éireann or he must agree that previous patterns will reassert themselves and Telecom Éireann's losses will not continue. That leads to a situation where bills to residential customers will increase by significant amounts. As a matter of fact, the change in usage pattern that Telecom Éireann has identified over the past four weeks or so confirms also that 50 per cent of domestic bills have increased by up to 10 per cent — and that is with the changing pattern of use.

(Limerick East): I do not know, but I am sure the Minister will provide us with that information later on. My preliminary point is that one can put one's money on the changing pattern of usage not continuing in the future and Telecom Éireann recovering its temporary losses from the badly handled rescheduling or that bills will not go up, but you cannot go both ways. Telecom Éireann and the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications are responsible for the débâcle. No commercial State company should be facing losses of the magnitude indicated by the Telecom Éireann survey. The Minister, in seeking to blame the Opposition parties for the reduction in usage and the consequent losses, as he has done at Question Time, is being disingenuous, if not downright dishonest. The Minister is personally responsible for the fiasco and failed to make a reasoned decision on Telecom Éireann's submission for a price rescheduling. The message has been so confused that there has been a significant reduction in trunk and international calls by domestic consumers, the very area where reductions rather than increases were heralded.

The initial announcement of the rescheduling was accompanied by a campaign of misinformation — more by accident than by design, I think. Claims were made that all telephone bills would be reduced. This was made by a Telecom Éireann spokesman at the earlier stages, the new schedule of charges was published in a newspaper exclusive of VAT, even though the Government had decided that the liability for VAT, which up to then was partially covered by the company, was to be totally transferred to the customer. Increases in the cost of faxes and calls from call boxes in private premises were hidden from the consumer; call boxes in private premises were adjusted ahead of schedule in the summer; VAT was increased prematurely in early September on calls made in July and August and the Minister, under public pressure, had to intervene to reverse this decision and instruct Telecom Éireann that it was not entitled to charge VAT on calls made in July and August and it would have to compensate those charged by refunding their VAT payment and notify them that the increased VAT applied from 1 November.

The initial announcement of rescheduling was accompanied by a campaign of misinformation and this is still casting a shadow over the rescheduling of charges. The customer has been totally confused and I am not a bit surprised that there has been a downturn in usage by ordinary residents. I am not a bit surprised that the chief executive of Telecom Éireann says that people are afraid to use their telephones. They are afraid to use their telephones because of the manner in which the rescheduling was introduced, the claims that were made for it and the correct belief that if they continue the same pattern of usage they will face significant increases in their bills. The Minister was quite irate and said we were claiming that telephone bills would go up by over 400 per cent. I never made that claim and I never heard any member of my party make that claim. The only claim we made was that if one was on a call for a 15 minute period at prime time, the fixed period for local calls before the rescheduling, the increase in the charge would be over 400 per cent. We did not say that would apply to the telephone bill. We gave the actual fact of the situation.

A gratuitous slip.

(Limerick East): I know there is no requirement for the Minister to listen to what we say and I am sure he only catches the air of it now and again, just like snatches of a song played in the distance that one tunes into very rarely and often at one remove. That is the position. I said the cost of calls had gone up by that amount for the 15 minute period during prime time. However, I maintain that telephone bills for residential customers will increase quite significantly through a combination of increases for local calls and increases in VAT, which now becomes the liability of the customer.

I have no doubt the Minister was as surprised as a great many other people here, as the saga unfolded, but he has responsibility for Telecom Éireann and there is no point in blaming Telecom because the buck stops at his desk. He is not slow to claim credit when things go right so he must carry the can when things go badly. It is time for a new approach to Telecom Éireann. As well as providing a platform for all Deputies who are interested in debating the revolution in the telecommunications industry and the role that Telecom Éireann should play in that, I recommend the individual proposals of this Bill to Members of this House.

Telecom Éireann is a very good State company. Since it was established in 1983 it has improved the service out of all proportion as prior to that time telecommunications services were provided by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Then Telecom Éireann and An Post were established and services have improved in both State companies beyond what we had been accustomed to when the functions were carried out by the Department.

I note that investment was not made on the establishment of the State companies and certainly while it was still within the ambit of the Department. Many changes were taking place and significant capital investment was being made, but it was made in anticipation of the establishment of the State company. Telecom Éireann carried out its task in a commendable fashion throughout the years. It involved itself in major capital programmes, the most modern telecommunications services were installed and to a very large degree they have been made available as a universal service throughout the country to both manufacturing and service industries. In doing so, Telecom Éireann has enhanced this country's attractiveness as a location both for manufacturing and service industries. One of the main complaints of industries established under the very high grant regime of the seventies was that they badly needed the grants because the infrastructure was so bad and they pointed in particular to the difficulties of making trunk calls to Dublin as well as international calls. Good telecommunications is a prerequisite of manufacturing and service industries and Telecom Éireann has provided that service. Workers, management and those who served on the board for nominal sums and the trade unions representing the workers over the years should be complimented not only on the improvement of the service but on the improvement in productivity in the company. As a matter of fact, contrary to conventional wisdom, the productivity attained by Telecom Éireann during the 1980s has been at the top of the league table in Europe.

Greater competitive gains have been achieved by Telecom Éireann than by any other national service provider in Europe and international statistics are available to confirm that. It achieved those gains at a price and from a low base and that should be recognised. In cutting costs and paring down the company many redundancies were made, with little trauma to the company or the public at large although at personal loss to many of those who worked in the company. In advocating change in respect of Telecom Éireann it is only proper that the proud record of that company and its workers, who continue to provide a good service, should be acknowledged. I understand there is agreement in principle for further cutbacks in Telecom Éireann, involving 2,000 redundancies.

I make those points because Government Deputies will probably misconstrue the purpose of this Bill and mislead the public by portraying the measures I propose as an attack on Telecom Éireann.

That is what it is.

(Limerick East): The exact opposite is my intention. Technology is changing so rapidly and the telecommunications industry is in such a state of flux that if the Minister and Telecom Éireann do not control events by taking positive decisions in respect of the company, they will end up reacting to events from a very weak position when matters go outside their control. That is what happened in respect of Aer Lingus and we should reflect on its problems when dealing with Telecom Éireann. Anybody who reflects on the problems of Aer Lingus will realise that the type of action now being agreed between management, unions and Government was necessary as far back as 1988 and might not have had to be as drastic if it had been taken at that time. Nevertheless, it was necessary in terms of cost cutting, making new arrangements in respect of schedules and providing an equity injection from the Government, but the Government and management procrastinated until Aer Lingus was almost bankrupt. I do not believe any of us wish to see a similar position develop in respect of Telecom Éireann. In my view, certain policy decisions need to be taken shortly to ensure Telecom Éireann survives as a service provider, is able to provide a good international service to Irish businesses and consumers and compete with competitive forces.

One of the most glaring omissions in Telecom Éireann's policy is its apparent disregard for its customers. By and large, this no doubt is due to the fact that it is a monopolistic service provider. That cannot, however, excuse a situation whereby this year Telecom Éireann seemed to regard its customers as an inconvenience, whom it massaged with misleading information and kept them in the dark about many of its real intentions. That is no way to treat the customer. Any commercial operation must sell more of its goods and services if it is to grow and prosper but many people do not realise that. Telecom Éireann cannot grow and prosper if a major plank of its marketing strategy is to advise people to use fewer of its services in order to keep their bills low.

The ESB introduced a similar campaign in the late seventies when it was trying to avoid huge capital expenditure by not getting involved in the expense of extra generation capacity, but at least it advised people to switch off lights and so on to conserve energy. It is despicable that representatives of Telecom Éireann should inform the public on television and radio that they do not have a problem, all they need do is stop using the telephone. The ultimate logic of that is for people to disconnect their telephones and they will not have any problem. No private company would operate on that basis, no company that did not have a monopoly, whether public or private, would adopt such an approach. Every commercial organisation with which I am familiar, whether it is a small corner shop or a manufacturing industry, pushes extra goods or services on customers. The basis of growth is to get the customer to buy more goods or avail of more services. Yet, we have a State company advising people that the telephone service is expensive but if they lock their teenagers in their rooms until the weekends, make calls to relatives after 6 o'clock or at the weekends and put an egg timer beside the telephone so that they will not exceed three minutes on a call, they will not have a problem.

Telecom Éireann could not have embarrassed the Minister by saying that.

(Limerick East): That is an outrageous approach to any type of commercial operation. Consumer difficulties have been magnified by the fact that the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, who should be the guardian of consumers' interests, works hand in glove with Telecom Éireann. He and his immediate predecessors have always put the perceived interests of Telecom Éireann before those of telephone users, and the users council recently established by the Minister under pressure is no substitute for an independent telecommunications director appointed under statute who would protect the interests of both consumers and service providers and adjudicate on a fair basis when their interests clash. That is the central idea of this Bill and I will deal with that and the other proposals in the Bill later.

The Bill does not deal with the question of ownership of Telecom Éireann. I want to put it bluntly on the record that both I and my party believe Telecom Éireann should remain in public ownership. Private monopolies are probably more adverse to the interests of consumers than public ones. At least public monopolies are subject to the control and influence of Ministers' Departments and the Houses of the Oireachtas.

In this Bill, competition is the issue, ownership is not. I have no difficulty with a State company operating on commercial lines, making commercial decisions and competing with companies in the private sector if it wishes because all the advantages would lie with Telecom Éireann for some time. Because of its strength, Telecom Éireann need not fear competition from the private sector, but when that competition comes it will put downward pressure on prices and provide consumers with a better, more efficient and effective service.

There is competition already.

(Limerick East): There is a small amount of competition which came about on the basis of kicking in the door. That is also what happened in the case of Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus held the old line until the door was kicked down and it practically went bankrupt. I do not want Telecom Éireann to go down the same road. It is prudent to make policy decisions in advance of trouble and technology is changing so fast that certain decisions should be taken now in respect of Telecom Éireann. I am not saying we can change the mandate and introduce competition next week or next month, but it is timely that we should have this debate now. Because of the problems arising at present and the rapid change in technology, the grand programmes initiated some years ago referring to when competition will be introduced are no longer applicable. Telecom Éireann discovered that last spring when, despite its best efforts, it had to face competition on international calls. Its main reason for rescheduling its charges was because of competition.

Competition, not ownership, is the main issue in this Bill. I have no doubt the Minister will point out that Telecom Éireann is not ready for competition, that its universal obligations would make competition unfair, that its level of penetration of 70 telephones per 100 persons is too low to face competition and that it will face competition when that penetration increases to the EC average of 82 telephones per 100 persons. Only then will competition be allowed. I am sure the Minister will argue also that capital investment during the past number of years, clearly illustrated by Telecom Éireann's debt of almost £1 billion for which the Irish taxpayer has ultimate responsibility, must be taken into account. Of course it must to be taken into account. I am sure the Minister will argue that, in effect, such investment and borrowing must be protected and that the way to do so is by preventing competition. I challenge that view. It is timely that we examine the issues to see if the position can be improved through competition.

The difficulty facing us in assessing such arguments is similar to those we faced in reassessing the scheduling of costs. Traditionally, Ministers for Communications worked hand in glove with Telecom Éireann, as was the case with the former Department of Posts and Telegraphs. No independent monitoring of Telecom Éireann's proposals to the Department takes place. The Minister and his predecessors acted, and continue to act, in the Council of Ministers at EC level as apologists for Telecom Éireann. Consequently, even though the bulk of EC countries have agreed to competition in telecommunications by 1997 Ireland, and some other peripheral EC countries such as Greece and Portugal, have obtained a derogation which allows them to defer competition until the year 2002. The rest of Europe is moving rapidly while Ireland remains in the slow lane and will wait until 1 January 2003.

What about Germany and France?

(Limerick East): I will refer to those countries later. This is a very shortsighted strategy. It is not in the interests of Telecom Éireann or its workers. It is not in the interests of Ireland's industrial development or in the interests of consumers. Technology will not wait on the inactivity of Ministers. Once the technological capacity emerges to provide competition it is very hard to ward it off. Telecom Éireann found that out to its cost very recently.

Offshore competition in respect of international calls was the main incentive for the rescheduling of charges and the reduction in the cost of international calls. Last year of the total of international calls made to and from Ireland 40 per cent were outgoing and 60 per cent incoming. This is an abnormal use pattern, because when one takes into account the millions of calls made, the normal breakdown should be 50-50. The aberration is not due to some strange behaviour by the migratory Irish. It arises from the fact that a significant number of calls made from Ireland are being charged to the receiver overseas. Ten out of every 100 outgoing calls are being charged to the other side. It is common knowledge that one can make arrangements to dial a number in the US and the company will ring back automatically, the effect being that the call is being charged in the US at a lower rate.

I was abroad with Deputies from this House recently looking at the situation in South Africa. One of my colleagues had a card from AT&T and all he had to do was quote the number on the card and in that instance calls from Johannesburg were charged to his home telephone. He was availing of the Minister's new reduced charges because calls were a bit higher in Johannesburg. This kind of thing is quite common across the world. Anyone can acquire such a card and decide where a call is charged. The calls of executives of international companies with the use of such cards can be charged to the location of lowest costs.

The competition is there and there is no point in trying to run from it. Telecom Éireann had to move to protect the international market last year and that is why they rescheduled charges. It had nothing to do with the Culliton report or the IDA. Telecom Éireann were losing market share and they had to move ahead of competitive forces. If they had taken account of those competitive forces a year before, they would have been in a better position to make a considered decision and would not have got into the mix-up they got into. Competition will not only continue but will multiply in respect of international calls. Now that the technology is available to provide competitive local and trunk calls by way of mobile phones it will be difficult to keep that competition out of Ireland.

The Minister may have a different view and by virtue of his better resources is more informed than I am, but already Mercury, the main private company in the UK, is offering local call services at competitive rates in the London area. They say that in 18 months they will have 2.5 million customers in the greater London area. This was impossible until recently, because the charges were too high and a mobile phone was a yuppie toy. It is coming down in price now and we are at the stage where they can offer a mobile local calls service at charges slightly higher than those charged on the British Telecom fixed line networks. They are able to go beyond that at weekends and offer as a sweetener free calls on Saturday and Sunday. They are targeting the business sector on a local call basis. A group of Americans and continentals are putting up satellites that fly on a lower trajectory.

How is it that British domestic charges are the highest in Europe?

(Limerick East): They are not.

I would ask Deputy Broughan to desist from interrupting. There is a strict time limit to this debate and interruptions are most unwelcome, if not disorderly.

(Limerick East): The Minister and Telecom Éireann should control events rather than react to them, as they did earlier this year. One of the main arguments against competition in telecommunications is that Telecom Éireann will lose business and jobs will be put at risk. This is based on the idea of a static market and misunderstands what has happened in countries where competition has been introduced. Where competition in telecommunication services has been encouraged, the contribution of the telecommunications industry to the respective country's GDP has increased and in actual terms it is now significantly higher than the contribution to the GDP in those countries where there is no competition. That sounds complicated. The countries where it has been introduced to a strong degree are Sweden, the US, Japan, the UK and New Zealand. I have no doubt that a prudently organised, staged introduction of competition into the telecommunications industry would lead to a growth in the industry and expansion in the number of jobs.

The countries who have introduced competition are also becoming more attractive as locations for manufacturing and service industries and that is very important. Anyone who reads the newspapers knows that there is a rapid coming together of the telecommunications industry, the computer industry and the entertainment industry and those countries with the most advanced facilities available at the most competitive prices will have an edge over those who do not move with the times, as a location for the cutting edge of the telecommunications industry, the entertainment industry and the computer industry and for all modern services and manufacturing industries. This is already happening.

I know the Minister and some members of the Cabinet appreciate how competitive the market is for mobile investment. It is probably the most competitive market in the world, with various offers available from different parts of the world. Money moves on a global basis. There are no alternative models. Every place is running some sort of free market economy. It is as likely now that part of a computer industry could set up in Moscow, if there was political stability, as in Swords, Tallaght or anywhere else. One of the key factors would be the degree of advancement of the telecommunications industry and how it interfaces with the computer industry and to an increasing degree with the entertainment industry. It has gone so far in the US now that some of the "baby Bells" which were formed on the break-up of the old telecommunications industry there are ringing up people and are offering television channels down the telephone line. That is interesting because in Ireland we have gone as far as figuring that Cablelink in certain circumstances could be used for telephone lines. There was an argument at one time that Telecom Éireann bought it out to prevent a competitor using the Cablelink system in Dublin. The reverse is happening in the US. They are not selling a telephone service anymore — they are selling the 25 channels, the 10 optional film channels and many education channels. The sweetener is that the telephone will be included and they will take 20 per cent of the bill if the person buys the entertainment package down the telephone line. It is important to realise the way these major industries are coming together. It is worth looking at what is happening and keeping an open mind.

When the new schedule of charges was announced last May the Culliton report was quoted in support of the Minister's case and the Telecom case. This was done in such a misleading way that Mr. Jim Culliton wrote to the Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, to point out that the Culliton report was being misquoted. It is interesting to note that Culliton pointed out that Ireland suffered a competitive disadvantage because of the relatively high cost of telephone calls. He went on to advocate continuing downward pressure on telephone calls but he never said it should proceed on a "rob Peter to pay Paul" basis where we would reduce some and increase others. He said that Ireland's telecommunications costs were comparatively higher than our EC partners' and that downward pressure would have to be kept on those costs. Competition keeps downward pressure on costs and prices and establishes the lowest possible point at which an effective profitable service can be delivered. This is in the interests of the consumer and the industry.

I would now like to deal with the main provisions of the Bill. I am presenting this Bill for a number of reasons, the first of which is to provide a platform for Deputies in my party and others, to take part in a serious debate about the telecommunications industry at a time when it is becoming very interesting internationally and when any modern industrialised country has to take developments in the industry into account. Second, the debate on the question of the rescheduling of charges has degenerated into a shouting match. The debate needs to be widened significantly.

I am not claiming that this is a full and final Bill because I do not have the resources available to Government Departments or someone to draft Bills for me. All Deputies, including Government backbenchers, understand this. I hope therefore the Bill will not be rejected on the grounds that it is flawed. If it is, I will accept amendments on Committee Stage as long as the principle that there is a need to introduce competition is accepted.

I am proposing that we appoint a statutory office holder, who would have the title "Director of Telecommunications", whose primary function would be to protect the interests of all users of telecommunication services by introducing competition. There is an equivalent office holder in the United Kingdom, the Director General of Telecommunications. At page 2, paragraph 1.6 of the OFTEL annual report 1992 he states under the heading "BT price control review":

Our starting point for the review was that we regard competition as the best means to improve telecommunication services for all types of users in the UK. Competition finds out how efficiently, and therefore inexpensively, telephone services can be provided. But BT still has a very large market share and can be expected to be a dominant force in the telecommunications market for some time to come.

He goes on to state there should be price controls on British Telecom.

That is what happens when one introduces competition.

(Limerick East): We would not dream of imposing price controls on Telecom Éireann. We are of the view that a monopolistic State provider will always operate in the interests of the consumer and that it should be free to do so but it is interesting the report concludes that the best way to provide an efficient service and to keep downward pressure on prices is to introduce competition.

My second proposal, which is equally important, is that the power to increase telecommunication charges would be vested in the new Director of Telecommunications rather than the Minister's Department. In respect of the commercial State bodies the position is the Department is both the body or organ which decides overall policy and at the same time is the watchdog. I do not believe it is possible to be the poacher and the gamekeeper at the same time because there will always be circumstances where the pursuance and the implementation of a policy will be at variance with the function to be a watchdog on behalf of the consumer. Therefore, this function should be removed from the Department and given to a person such as Director of Telecommunications.

It would be a matter for the Minister by way of regulations to give this director a mandate on how he should set about introducing an equitable schedule of charges for services. If an independent office holder, appointed under a statute enacted by the Houses of the Oireachtas, had considered the case made by Telecom Éireann last spring, borne in mind the interests of the consumer, including small businesses, those who provide telephone advisory services and old people and made recommendations, the rescheduling of charges would have carried far greater authority than the one authorised by the Minister when his hand was in the dog's mouth and he was faced with the competing requirements of Telecom Éireann whose market share was declining as a result of international competition on the one hand and of consumers who had no voice on the other.

It would also be the function of this new office holder to promote research into new telecommunications techniques — I do not think anyone is doing this at present; to help manufacturers of equipment to compete and supply inside and outside Ireland — this would have to be done in co-operation with An Coras Tráchtála; and to investigate complaints by users. In the 1983 and 1984 Acts provision was made for a users' council. Subsequently, its powers were vested in the Ombudsman who has been processing complaints about Telecom Éireann. While he is doing his best his office is under-resourced. The Minister has now set up an informal users' council. The Director of Telecommunications should have the power to investigate complaints and adjudicate in the first instance whether they are mischievous or trivial and, if so, rule them out. He should investigate real complaints and have sufficient staff to do so.

In introducing competition changes would have to be made in the 1993 Act. The provision under which Telecom Éireann is the only service provider would have to be removed. Under another section of that Act Telecom Éireann is allowed to "farm out" activities. In addition it may decide of its own volition to diminish its monopoly position but it has used this provision in a limited way. It makes sure that it only fights those it can put out of the ring with one punch.

It is like picking a running mate for an election.

(Limerick East): That is correct. Elections are on the Deputy's mind; I hope when he picks his running mate for the European elections he will not be too strong but we wish him well.

I have no doubt that the Deputy does.

(Limerick East): A number of other provisions are dealt with in the explanatory memorandum and I do not have to deal with them in great detail. Other speakers will deal with them. The director would also have the power to issue licences. Again, this would have to be done in accordance with regulations issued by the Minister. For instance, if Mercury decides it could provide a service in Dublin at competitive rates it could apply to the Director of Telecommunications who would examine its application for a licence in accordance with the regulations laid down by the Minister and issue it. The director would have to bear in mind that Telecom Éireann has an obligation to provide an emergency service covering telephone calls to the Garda Síochána and other emergency services. Therefore, there would have to be fair and full competition.

The explanatory memorandum is very clear and there is no need to refer to it in great detail. I refer Deputies to an article in the Financial Times on Monday, 11 October in which the Minister is mentioned. It is an honour for an Irish Minister to receive a mention in the Financial Times. Many of the Minister's colleagues would not aspire to such an honour——

It depends on the party.

We like to be mentioned in The Guardian.

(Limerick East): The Deputy asked what is the position in other countries in respect of competition and privatisation. It is laid out in this article in reasonable detail. I will make a copy and send it to him. The fact that the Minister is quoted at the beginning will ensure——

Will there be one for everyone in the audience?

(Limerick East): Mr. Andrew Adonis takes the views of everybody into account and quotes the Minister. It makes interesting reading about what is happening. It predicts that every State provider in the EC will be privatised by 1997. The Dutch are going next year.

I call on Dáil Éireann to reject this Bill.

The timing of its introduction is intended to capitalise on an assumed wave of public dissatisfaction with Telecom Éireann by kicking it hard when it was down, removing its privileges without providing the means for discharging its public service obligations and exposing it and all other telecommunications service providers to the tender mercies of an omnipotent Director of Telecommunications whose sweeping functions go far beyond regulation into the areas of tariff setting, research, manufacturing and consumer protection.

There are many reasons for opposing this opportunistic Bill. It is internally inconsistent and out of accord with policy developments of recent years. For example, its declared purpose is to introduce competition to Telecom Éireann and at the same time empowers the putative director to publish a schedule of prices. I always thought that the market place operating in a competitive manner was the optimum way to determine prices, and particularly so in times of low inflation. Publication of pricing schedules by the director could be a counter-productive rigidity in a properly functioning competitive market and undermines the declared purpose of this Bill.

Another reason for rejecting this Bill is its bad draftsmanship. The Bill appears to be the work of someone who has browsed through the UK's Telecommunications Act of 1984 with a mandate to pick out those sections with an ideologically attractive ring to them, no pun intended, and to present them in an Irish context. Indeed, so preoccupied was he with selecting the glib and glitzy, that the draftsman overlooked the vital requirement in any legislation to describe the board by its correct legal name, which is either "Bord Telecom Éireann", or, in the English language, "The Irish Telecommunications Board". Although perfectly understandable in ordinary use as referring to the board, the words "Telecom Éireann" are, in fact, a business name. They are quite simply wrong when used to describe the board in legislation and this illustrates the Bill's superficial approach.

This Bill is deliberately designed for its populist appeal at a time when Telecom Éireann has had to take tough decisions and it cannot be seen as a serious contribution to development of policy in the telecommunications sector. I will return to the content of the Bill later.

All through the summer we had to listen to speculation and scaremongering from various groups, including some Deputies opposite about the dire effects of the new tariff package introduced by Telecom Éireann on 1 September.

Telecom Éireann could only publish the facts, which they alone knew, and their best projections based on these facts and their own experience. The preliminary information becoming available at this stage tends to confirm that there was no basis for the scaremongering.

We heard Deputy Noonan trying to grab the headlines with opportunistic references to increases of 400 per cent and more in this House back in May.

(Limerick East): What about the quarter hour call?

He is a past master at headline grabbing. That 15-minute on peak call represents 3 per cent of total local calls. It was suggested that that was the average. The Deputy never denied that, never dissociated himself from the headlines. He knew from his own experience that to suggest that every local call takes place on peak and lasts 15 minutes was unrealistic. That is totally incorrect and has proven to be so. We heard also from the selective survey of an unrepresentative few hundred users back in August by the unrepresentative party now led by Deputy Harney that the bills of 97 per cent of domestic users would increase by an average of 28 per cent. We now know, admittedly based on limited but accurate information available at this stage from Telecom Éireann, that 46 per cent of domestic users have seen reductions in their bills. A further 42 per cent will see increases of less than 10 per cent on their bills for the September/October period. The reduction in volume was only 3 per cent in total, despite the scaremongering, and only 8 per cent for residential customers. This shows that ordinary people, although being careful, did not believe the central thrust of what was put forward by Deputy Noonan and others.

Also from that survey by the Progressive Democrats we were told that 80 per cent of small firms would face increases averaging 23 per cent. The reality from the data available at this stage is the complete opposite — 72 per cent of small businesses have experienced a reduction in their bills — again I emphasise as far as data currently available shows. These are facts, not fiction.

I now want to give the House an indication of my own thinking about the future of the telecommunications sector. I intend to take the necessary action to stimulate the development of this critically important sector without undue delay. I am predisposed to increased competition and to independent regulation; these two go hand-in-hand. I must also be mindful of the valuable assets and human resources which constitute Telecom Éireann and which are entrusted to my care on behalf of the taxpayers of this country.

My starting point is that top quality telecommunication services should be provided to those who require them on a secure but economically efficient basis at reasonable costs. It would be difficult to overstate the importance of success in this context.

We have come a long way in the past decade or more in equipping ourselves with a modern system; indeed we are ahead of many countries in this respect. But the rapid advance of technology leaves no room for clapping ourselves on the back. We must look forward.

It would be erroneous to think that there is no competition in the telecommunications business in this country. There has been considerable liberalisation already in the delivery of special services, in the provision of terminal equipment, in data transmission, in the provision of links between enterprises, in equipping procurement and of course there is effective competition in international traffic; in other words, in most areas apart from voice telephony. In June of this year the EC Council of Ministers decided to liberalise voice telephony within five years; there is a derogation for up to a further five years for some countries including Ireland. We cannot isolate ourselves from these developments. In fact these developments together with the pace of technological change in the sector mean that the traditional structure of the communications industry dominated by large monopolistic national companies is under assault and will have to change, because if it does not keep pace with developments it may well become irrelevant. We must control this change rather than let it control us.

It is clear that allowing increased competition is an important route to greater economic efficiency. It is also clear that independent regulation of the sector to ensure transparency and fairness is a necessary precondition to full competition. It should not be necessary for separate and competing infrastructure to be constructed where existing capacity is adequate. This means that co-operation and competition must co-exist and this can only happen if there is a neutral referee with adequate regulatory powers. I have already announced that the setting up of an independent regulatory authority is under urgent examination in my Department and, we are now examining this question with a view to having the appropriate structure identified and the necessary legislation prepared. As a first step, the relevant divisions of my Department have been reorganised so that the regulatory function can be operated separately from the functions which pertain exclusively to general policy formulation and to the shareholder role vis-à-vis Telecom Éireann. It is too soon in my consideration of this matter to be precise as to the role of the independent regulator but it will certainly encompass the oversight of fair competition between the market players having regard to the dominant position of Telecom Éireann and its ownership of the backbone infrastructure on the one hand and its universal service obligations on the other. The regulator would also have a role in relation to the general level of tariffs and quality of service in the context of seeing that competition is delivering the expected benefits.

It should be remembered that when there is only one big monopoly player the telecommunications business is fairly straightforward. As competition develops the complexities increase. When, for example, a mobile telephone user subscribing to a new competitor calls a fixed location Telecom Éireann customer, who gets what out of the revenue? In the opposite case, is the customer charged the normal tariff or the mobile telephone tariff which is much higher? Will new entrants to the telecommunications market be anxious to serve those areas where costs are higher? Telecom Éireann's exclusive privilege was conferred on it among other reasons "in view of its primary purpose of providing a national telecommunications service" and "because a viable national telecommunications system involves subsidisation of some loss making services by profit making services". I am quoting this from section 87 of the 1983 Postal and Telecommunications Services Act. This Bill would remove Telecom Éireann's ability to carry out these onerous duties which the Bill leaves intact, and at the same time — and this is another example of woolly thinking — confer these same duties on the director. This is a problem which will have to be addressed with great care. Ways must be found to spread the cost of the universal service obligation — which in my view should remain with Telecom Éireann — fairly throughout the whole market. I mention those issues only to underline the importance of the regulatory environment. Such issues are in contention in most countries and we can learn from their experiences. but we must allow ourselves the time window to do so.

I appreciate the need to sort out speedily the issues which collectively constitute telecommunications policy and I have started to put in place the departmental structures necessary to do so. I also am conscious that if I were to rush the fences and arrive at wrong answers as a consequence, I would be doing a major disservice to this nation.

I want to turn now to the question of Telecom Éireann and my role as shareholder. This State has invested very substantial sums of money through Telecom Éireann in providing an up-to-date digital telephone system. The staff of Telecom Éireann also contributed in no small way to this development. Despite well-known problems such as debt overhang, continued overstaffing and a heavy ongoing investment requirement, the company can have a bright future, but this will happen only if we face-up to the problems and take the necessary decisions. We cannot walk away from this investment, in the manner which would flow from the Bill before the House. Telecom Éireann is an organisation of value and we must work on enhancing that value, not undermining it. The recent rebalancing of the telephone tariff was one essential step in the process of strengthening the company and preparing it for the more competitive future. I want to repeat that it was an essential step but not an easy one. We took appropriate steps to alleviate worries in acute cases, for example, the free calls unit for beneficiaries of the free telephone rental allowance scheme, nationwide calls at weekends at local rates, the special provision by Telecom Éireann of assistance with freephone helpline facilities to the most critical helplines operating nationally and the instruction to Government Departments and agencies to provide efficient responses to telephone inquiries. I am examining a separate proposal to adjust the charges of leased lines so as to make them costrelated.

These are necessary steps towards preparing Telecom Éireann so that it can face competition with confidence. They are also rapidly putting in place a new cost accounting system to increase transparency and ensure a correct relationship between costs and tariffs in different segments of the business. This will also, of course, confine the scope for cross-subsidisation to those areas of the business where it is allowable as part of the universal service obligation. The subsidiaries and business units will have an arm's-length relationship with the parent and pay the going rate for services provided. I have been relating a set of measures which are preparing Telecom Éireann for the competitive future, introducing the appropriate type of regulatory framework and allowing the degree of competition to develop in step with developments in EC policy and in most of our partner countries. If and when these developments make it necessary or appropriate, I will bring forward the requisite legislation.

I will now turn to the Bill before the House. It would be contrary to the national interest, to the interest of Telecom Éireann and its staff and profligate in the extreme to abolish peremptorily the Telecom Éireann exclusive privilege with effect from a current date as is proposed in section 3. This would throw wide open the most profitable segments of the telecommunications business to a multitude of predators and put at risk our ability to provide a high quality universal service nationwide. I am not prepared to take this course and I do not believe this House is prepared to support it. On a technical point, Telecom Éireann's exclusive privilege is not, as the section describes it, one of "running a telecommunications system". That is a term borrowed from the UK's Telecommunications Act, 1984. As I said at the outset, much of the Bill seems to have derived its inspiration from that Act. There is nothing wrong with that but I should point out that the British Act is in seven parts and runs to over 100 sections and seven schedules. This is not surprising given the complexity of its purpose, but it is not good enough to tackle such an important task in the Irish context by lifting the most ideologically attractive sections, in some cases verbatim, and cobbling them together in isolation from consequential and supporting provisions.

It is wishful thinking to suggest that the director could, from day one, secure the delivery of this universal service, unless it were to be provided at the expense of the taxpayer by Telecom Éireann after it had lost the profitable end of the business.

There are many flaws in this Bill. They are so numerous that it would be extremely difficult to deal with them in any satisfactory way by amendments on Committee Stage. It would be far preferable for the House to leave me a clean sheet on which to write an appropriate Bill when it is needed.

Section 1 containing definitions is a confused piece of drafting. This may even be a generous description. It uses terminology like "Act" and "section" as if they were interchangeable, for example in subsections (2) and (3). Once again this is symptomatic of unstructured plagiarising of the UK Act. The section contains a tangled web of definitions which go all over the place. Definitions are normally contained in an Act to increase clarity. In this case, I am afraid, it is the exact opposite.

Section 2 dealing with the director looks at first glance to be pretty standard. However, it is curious that the Director of Telecommunications is to be a Government appointee but the Minister can sack him. The independence from the Minister of the director in the discharge of his functions is something to be taken seriously, as it is in the UK Act, for example by the clear separation of their respective functions. The section provides for the taxpayer to pick up the bill for the director and his office. If and when I move in the direction of a Telecommunications Regulatory Office, I intend that it will be a self-financing operation, charging for its services.

I have dealt earlier with the content of section 3 and I will not repeat my opposition to it.

I find section 4 difficult to understand and it appears badly flawed. It deals with the director's functions — I think. Subsections (1) and (2) set out things to be considered by the director in exercising his functions while subsection (3) seems to see those things as functions in themselves. The explanatory memorandum suggests the latter. This is simply bad draftsmanship.

If the latter is what is intended, then it would seem that some of the functions duplicate the work of the Industrial Development Authority and give the director a very wide remit indeed. This is not desirable. Subsection (4) is the most puzzling. The very idea of schedules of charges is anathema to competition. There is ample evidence in other economic sectors that the scheduling of charges serves as an invitation to operators to charge those charges leading to a failure of competition or worse a failure of the company concerned. There may, of course, be other functions associated with the regulation of the radio and telecommunications industry that could usefully be conferred on a regulator and I will take this into consideration when we come to assign functions to that office.

Sections 5, 6 and 7 are innocuous and deal with the further duties of the director.

Section 8 dealing with complaints about the telecommunications service is wideranging and general, but it could cut right across the role of the Director of Consumer Affairs and possibly that of the Ombudsman, both of whom are dealing with complaints in a satisfactory manner. I am not in favour of having separate consumer protection agencies for different sectors of the economy. This leads to proliferation, unnecessary cost and potential for inconsistency.

Section 9 dealing with licences is lifted from various parts of the 1983 Act and would not be contentious in the context of proper legislation for telecommunications. In relation to section 10, I cannot see what it adds to section 5 (3). The idea of making regulations appears for the first time in this section — without, alas, a general power to make them. The subject matter of section 10 (2) is already tightly regulated by national and international provisions regarding type approval.

Section 12 provides for a plethora of advisory committees. I counted no less than three mandatory advisory committees and there is scope for further optional ones. We all know that the Deputies opposite are seeking urgent ways of broadening their appeal, but I find it hard to believe that they are serious about this method of doing so. I might add that sections 12 and 13 give us a corresponding plethora of annual reports.

As I mentioned earlier, the proposer of this Bill has copied selectively and incoherently from the UK 1984 Act. I am pleased to note a curious twist from today's newspapers, where it is reported that British Telecom is following our example by introducing a nationwide weekend call at 10p, although in its case for only three minutes; not the ten minutes which we have given. This is a clear case of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.

I am moving forward in a determined manner in the development of telecommunications policy. I have changed the relevant organisational structure in the Department to begin separating regulatory functions from other functions. We have settled the Telecom Éireann pricing package which was overdue, however unpalatable it might have been. Telecom Éireann was losing ground and its preexisting pricing arrangements left it very exposed to the loss of international traffic which, in turn, subsidised domestic traffic. It could not have faced the more competitive future unless this handicap was removed and that future competition is inevitable. Indeed, I expect to announce very shortly a tender competition for a second national operator in the mobile telephones business.

I am not prepared to take the drastic step of abolishing the Telecom Éireann monopoly in the peremptory fashion advocated in section 3 of the Bill before the House. Neither am I prepared to acquiesce in setting up a string of advisory committees appealing to every conceivable interest group in Irish society. I thought we had an end to that kind of appeasement some years ago. I set up one broadly representative Telephone Users' Advisory Group to provide independent monitoring of the effects of price changes, and that one group is quite enough.

In conclusion, I reiterate that it is far more responsible and reasonable to deal in facts, not fantasy, in relation to Telecom Éireann and its prices and their effects on consumers. The emerging facts speak for themselves. Indeed we should all stand back from that debate for a couple of months until the reaction to the price changes settles down and we can have meaningful information, cold analysis and especially the reports which will be made by the Telephone Users' Advisory Group which will be made public. I reiterate my outright condemnation of this Bill and trust in the good sense of Dáil Éireann to reject it.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Durkan and Carey.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

Having listened to the Minister's closing debate last Thursday, his reaction to this Bill does not surprise me. At least he is consistent in his remarks but it is disappointing that he sees no merit in the Bill. We are getting negative, sterile opposition from the Government and it refuses to accept a constructive measure like this Bill. I compliment Deputy Noonan on preparing the Bill and precipitating this debate.

Many of us during the summer months were very conscious of what was happening in Telecom Éireann. The Minister appears to be clutching at a report, published today, of the initial findings of Telecom vis-à-vis the new charges. Of most concern are the charges for residential customers, and the latest survey reveals that 46 per cent experienced a reduction in charges, 42 per cent experienced increases of less than 10 per cent and, I assume, the remaining 12 per cent experienced increases of more than 10 per cent. Many people, particularly families in which a number of people use the telephone, were very concerned about the increase in charges and the initial reaction was to restrict use of the telephone. I will be interested to see the change from 1 April next year when, I assume, VAT will be increased to 21 per cent, an increase that will be borne by the residential customer. I anticipate that by that time many people will have reverted to their old habits and will be making greater use of the telephone. We will then see a true reflection of the changes in telephone charges.

Great play has been made of the concessions given to certain sectors, to groups such as the Samaritans, the Rape Crisis Centre and Childline. A derisory sum of £500,000 was made available for this purpose. In my constituency in Limerick a group called the Limerick Cancer Support Group, which does tremendous work, has complained that with increased charges it is no longer possible to make essential telephone calls. Representations have been made from time to time to accommodate these people but without success.

The question of increased telephone charges was handled extremely badly. The Minister implied we said the changes would result in a 400 per cent increase in the cost to residential customers, but that implication is wrong. We said that a nine minute 'phone call which previously cost 11.17p would cost more than 40p, an increase of about 400 per cent. The Minister should not be disingenuous in this matter.

I would like the Minister to clarify a quotation in the Financial Times of Monday, 11 October which states:

When news of the Cable and Wireless talks broke in the spring, Brian Cowen, Ireland's communications minister insisted that "privatisation is not on the agenda". Yet in accepting that alliances were vital to maintain Telecom Éireann's position "in a sector which is moving at an accelerating rate", he highlighted the dynamic likely to prompt privatisation sooner or later.

I will also quote from the Sunday Independent of 23 May lest people think that Deputy Cowen was alone in his thinking on this matter. It states:

The Taoiseach did have some discussion with former Tory Trade Minister, Lord Young, who is now Chairman of Cable and Wireless about them taking a stake. But that was during the previous coalition with the Progressive Democrats.

I imagine the position has changed in view of the fact that the coalition is now with the Labour Party. I would like the Minister to comment on the statement that "he highlighted the dynamic likely to prompt privatisation sooner or later". He should point out this evening the future direction of telecommunications and Telecom Éireann rather than making negative, sterile comments. It is very easy to criticise a Bill such as this and to say it is lacking in terms of parliamentary draftsmanship and content. We do not have the battery of resources available to the Minister to dissect and analyse a Bill such as this. It would be better if the Minister was constructive in relation to these matters.

A recent Telecom report — it is very good at producing glossy annual reports — states that customers will be consulted periodically about all aspects of the services it provides and their experience in dealing with the company. I am sure that if people were asked about their experiences in dealing with Telecom Éireann, it would be very disappointed with their reaction. I had a recent visit from a person who believed that a letter she received from Telecom Éireann was almost a form of blackmail. She had neglected to pay her bill on time and, as we all know, in cases such as this Telecom has the ultimate sanction to cut off service. I do not know if the Minister's phone was ever cut off but mine was on one occasion and in these circumstances it just goes dead. However, it rings in the exchange and the person making the telephone call also hears it ringing. What tends to happen is that people pay their bill in the local post office, but it takes a few days for the money to be transferred to the Telecom centre in St. Stephen's Green. In some cases the money is not sent directly to the Telecom head office. Some people have had their telephones disconnected during this period. The sad thing about all this is that people have to pay a reconnection fee, which is included in their next bill. The letter sent out by Telecom Éireann to people who have had their telephones disconnected usually reads as follows:

We regret to say that your next bill will include a reconnection charge of X amount. However, should you decide to pay us in the future by direct debit this charge will be waived. If you communicate with us in the mandate provided herein that you are prepared to pay in future by direct debit this charge will be forgotten about.

This is a type of blackmail of vulnerable people who have had their telephones disconnected.

The handling by Telecom Éireann of this issue was exacerbated by the Minister at the time. As we know from the Glackin report, Telecom paid £9.4 million for a site which does not have planning permission. As rural councillors know, one would not buy a site from a farmer for £5,000-£6,000 unless it had planning permission. Yet Telecom Éireann has countenanced the decision to purchase this site and justified the introduction of these charges. Is it any wonder the general public is sceptical of Telecom? Many Telecom employees had to put up with criticism from people because of stupid management decisions and improper public relations.

Telecom Éireann advertises itself as Ireland's telephone company. Perhaps it should advertise itself as Ireland's "only" telephone company. The monopoly position enjoyed by this company has led to arrogance among its management. This Bill, which proposes to go in the right direction, is not being supported by the Government. This does not surprise me because I believe any constructive proposals put forward by the Opposition at present would be opposed by the Government.

When Telecom Éireann introduced these increases it said it was rebalancing the charges — the buzz word at the time was "rebalancing". At the time Mr. McGovern projected that these increases would lead to a loss of £15 million-£18 million per year for the company. It now seems that the company cannot predict the potential losses. People are not making as many phone, calls as they used to make and Telecom Éireann states that it is losing £750,000 a week as a result. Telecom does not seem to be able to get its sums right. The Minister appeared to be rather joyful about the reports in today's newspapers. However, I would say to him that he should wait until next April or May to see the results of the increases in the charges. I think he will be pleasantly surprised by them. Telecom Éireann's fixed monthly rental charges have a reputation of being among the highest in the EC. It is understandable why the company did not increase those charges.

I am sharing my time with my two colleagues, but there is a lot more I could say on this issue. I am delighted a member of the Labour Party has decided to come into the House to listen to this debate because at the time the increases were announced the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, stated on television that she had no trouble accepting the increases. I hope she will be able to say the same next April or May. People who previously fought for the oppressed members of our community seem to dramatically change their priorities when they go into office with Fianna Fáil. I compliment my colleague, Deputy Noonan, on introducing this Bill.

I, too, wish to congratulate my colleague, Deputy Noonan, on introducing this Bill which highlights the present difficulties in this sector. If Deputy Noonan, the Opposition spokes-person on Tourism, Transport and Communications, did not debate this issue he would be accused of neglecting his duty. He has been chided by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications for asking salient questions about his Department. Both at Question Time today and in his contribution to this debate the Minister tried to give the impression that he is concerned about arriving at the truth and that he wants to give the relevant data to the public. However, even Telecom Éireann admitted today that the data it was comparing related to July of one year and September of another year. I ask the Minister to clarify whether it is a July-September comparison. If this is the case, it is an apple and orange comparison, so to speak. The Minister is running away from his responsibilities——

Certainly not.

He is charged with responsibility for ensuring that Telecom Éireann provides a service which will increase job opportunities. Yet the first decision he took was to impose the extra charge in VAT which Telecom was not charging. The Minister made that decision. I wonder how much of the £750,000 in losses being experienced by Telecom is as a result of the increase in VAT. How much consideration did the Minister give to this increase in VAT before he imposed it? If all the details of the survey were published then perhaps people might understand the reasons for the increase. As I said, an orange and apple comparison is not fair either to the public or the company.

In framing this Bill, Deputy Noonan had a larger vision for Telecom. We believe Telecom should be competing in the overseas market as an international company, a flagship company for this State. Deputy Noonan's proposals, which would leave the consumer in a competitive position, have been criticised in a spurious way by a Minister who considers himself to be more learned than the rest of us — he talks down to us. As Deputy Noonan said, the Bill may be flawed in some respects. It should be remembered that some Private Members' Bills introduced by Fianna Fáil when it was in Opposition were also flawed. Indeed, some of its Bills were totally flawed. If I recall correctly, the things Fianna Fáil in Opposition said it would do in regard to Telecom when it came into office have not changed much either. The Minister implied in a report in the Financial Times that he might privatise the company. He has certainly changed his tune now.

(Limerick East): They will send Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan to Europe to get rid of him.

I would remind the Deputy that he and I were members of a Government which introduced the Bill which set up Telecom Éireann.

I am delighted that Deputy O'Sullivan is not imbued with his Leader's fancy footwork.

(Limerick East): Why did the Deputy leave us for such a bunch?

I would like Telecom Éireann to be given broad scope and yet, to a certain extent, the Minister to retain control through a director, as is proposed in this Bill. Outside competition will force decisions on the Government and on this company when it will be too late. We have an opportunity to take a forward-looking view and I recommend that the House support this Bill.

Like the previous speaker, I support the Bill produced by my colleague, Deputy Noonan, on the basis that it is better to face reality now than to wait until we reach a situation such as that which has arisen in Aer Lingus and in regard to which nothing other than a harsh proposal has come by way of resolution.

I listened with some interest today at Question Time to the Minister of State's rather "buckish" stance on the whole question of Telecom. I notice in the media recently he was attempting to change his image but I would have to point out to him, no disrespect intended, that he was even more "buckish" than ever today——

Arrogant.

That is another word one could use in that context. I wish to point out, with all humility, that while that might sound well in the House and be a quick reflex to put down the Opposition, it will not put down reality. The reality is that the public have greatly reduced their usage of the telephone service in the past month or so. It is a sad reflection on the Minister's position that he suggested to a Deputy on this side of the House that we deliberately hyped up the situation and contrived an example to illustrate our position. It shows little regard for the intelligence of Members and, more important, for the intelligence of the general public.

That is totally unfair.

The Minister should not presume that because telephone costs are reduced to some extent it is an indication that the new hyped-up charges are acceptable. They are not.

The public are afraid to use the telephone. They are afraid to call their relatives. It is all very well to say that they can use the telephone after normal business hours at a cheaper rate. As Members know, the cost of using our telephones in the past month or so has increased by approximately 30 per cent on average, notwithstanding our knowledge of the increased charges. That is a fact of life and no amount of painting over the problem will change that.

The Minister would be well advised to recognise that that is the position. He should either face up to the problem now or we will have a major problem in one or two year's time. He should not forget the statistics that were released this morning in relation to losses in Telecom Éireann. Does the Minister want these losses to continue? Is it not better to do something at an early stage to correct the problem rather than to find some years from now that we have the type of scenario that has unfolded in Aer Lingus? I do not believe we want to repeat that mistake.

In regard to competition, some years ago various Ministers announced that we had to expect more competition in the future. For example it was decided at that time to divide CIE into different companies. I do not understand why the Minister seems to be burying his head in the sand in regard to this issue. He is not facing up to his responsibilities. He should realise that increased competition for Telecom Éireann will cause problems in addition to the problems created by the increased charges. The combination of those two factors will lead to a very interesting situation for the Minister in, perhaps, two years time. It may not take that long and I am a person who is totally committed to a national public service. If nothing is being done to streamline a State service that service faces slow strangulation which will cause a public outcry. We will then have broad-ranging solutions which at the end of the day may actually exacerbate the problem.

The Bill suggests that the monopoly be removed from Telecom Éireann. This does not mean that Telecom Éireann will be damaged in any way or that the impact of the service it provides will lessen. It simply means that the company will have to face up to reality at an early stage and provide for its customers the kind of service it will have to provide if it faces competition. If the company cannot do that now, it certainly will not be able to do so in five years time.

Technology is advancing rapidly and nowhere more so than in the area of telecommunications. We should be improving the mobile 'phone service and making it available to more people and in turn, making greater profits. The capital outlay involved is relatively small and the maintenance element of that service is not as great as it was with the old-fashioned crossbar systems that were used in telecommunications.

If the Minister is serious about preserving public ownership, he should enable the company to become more competitive, more aggressive and provide better service to more people. He should not remain behind a high wall hoping that if he stays there long enough all his problems will go away. That will not happen. The losses which are occurring on a daily basis will not disappear. The Minister should accept his responsibility in the interest of the future of the people employed by Telecom Éireann and in recognition of the fact that we cannot afford a lengthening dole queue. The Minister should ensure that the company remains healthy and does not drift into a situation of enforced strangulation.

I am somewhat disappointed at the content of the debate so far, particularly the contributions by Members of the Opposition. One would have expected this debate to be about the increased telephone charges recently announced, the rebalancing act or whatever one may like to call it.

The Minister commented at the outset about his disappointment that this Bill is not really concerned with a fundamental look at the future direction of Telecom Éireann, and a comprehensive view of the policy options facing the State and the company in regard to telecommunications.

Debate adjourned.
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