There may be Members who think it is wrong to differentiate between local authority and other flat complexes. In the normal course of events I would agree with that argument. Certainly I do not seek to discriminate merely for the purpose of discrimination, I seek to discriminate the legal provisions in a manner which would render them effective in dealing with a very real and serious problem, particularly in our capital city. If one takes Dublin as an example — with which I am most familiar, although I am sure the problem obtains in most urban areas where local authority flat complexes are located — there are approximately 16,000 Dublin Corporation flats. Of those approximately 1,000 are occupied by senior citizens. By and large, the remainder are comprised of flat complexes of three or four storeys, most of them situated between the canals and in close proximity to each other. Some of these flat complexes, built just before or after the Second World War are comprised of large numbers of flats, 300 or 400 being quite common. If even one family behaves in an anti-social manner the whole flat complex is in chaos. In my constituency, in Rathland Road, Dublin Corporation eventually had to knock down a perfectly sound flat complex, in a high demand local authority housing area, because two or three people terrorised all the good people who lived there, in the end most people simply wanted to get out. That is not always the solution to the problem. Unfortunately, very often the solution is that the residents, to some extent, take the law into their own hands, march collectively on disruptive tenants to gain peace for themselves and their children. The problem is caused not merely by disruptive tenants but by tenants who openly sell drugs, bringing down a whole area; in parts of the country this would be equivalent to a very large village in which 300 or 400 flats are located, bringing down the overall flat complex.
In my constituency in the inner city there is a flat complex free of drug pushers because the residents, unable to gain assistance from State agencies, simply marched on these people, warning them to give up their drug pushing or leave. Eventually they put them out. One or two people in that flat complex — othewise comprised of perfectly normal, decent, God-fearing people — were selling drugs to people who travelled from as far away as Dún Laoghaire by taxi to purchase them. This meant that the old folk and the children of those tenants had to walk in and out through this flat complex, passing these people buying and selling drugs, injecting on stairways, throwing up and behaving in all sorts of undesirable ways, then leaving their needles lying around which could be picked up by young, vulnerable children.
When the tenants complain to Dublin Corporation about this problem, incidentally often supported by the Garda, the Corporation warn the people involved but nothing happens and they continue their undesirable activities. Eventually Dublin Corporation, after a long process of serving notices while the complex deteriorates, with decent families wanting to get out and others offered accommodation there not accepting it, take the undesirable person to court. Then one comes up against a judge — I will not name him but I have one in mind — who seeks four independent witnesses to testify that they know what is going on in this flats complex. Of course, tenants cannot give evidence because, if they do, they will be intimidated, beaten up, perhaps knee-capped, or even worse, their children will not be safe travelling to school or to the shops.
This is a very serious problem. I spoke to an official of Dublin Corporation the other day who asked me when the Legislature will do something about this problem. I told him I had an amendment tabled to the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 1993. I acknowledge that my amendment may not solve the problem but certainly we need a remedy along these lines. Informally I understand that the Assistant Garda Commissioner for the Dublin Metropolitan area, Mr. Curran, a very accessible, alert and positive-minded man, is endeavouring to deal with this problem by offering the courts Garda evidence, pointing out that the Garda were aware of previous complaints on the part of the said tenants. However, he does not know whether that testimony will be accepted as evidence in court. This problem cannot be solved by the Garda or local authority; it is one for the courts who must be told that the evidence they seek is unrealistic in the circumstances and that they must do something because people are taking the law into their own hands. A recent television programme illustrated the manner in which kangaroo courts are operated, people are marched before a committee and told that although they had been warned about their activities they had not ceased to engage in them and that they must leave the area.
In the past I condemned people who were outside the law, but if the law does not provide protection for these people what are they to do? Are they to allow their children to develop AIDS from picking up dirty needles? Must they allow their senior citizens to be intimidated by people making large amounts of money pushing drugs, totally ignoring the law? In the same circumstances what would the Minister, I or anybody else do? Of course, we would meet the residents and try to do something about the problem. I do not welcome this unhealthy development but, in all the circumstances, I cannot condemn it. I do not want to see anybody take the law into their own hands. I will not support violence in any shape or form but we need to provide a form of evidence which can be used, which in all the circumstances is reasonable, and can be accepted by the courts. A Garda superintendent is in an ideal position, being a responsible person, who will have the relevant information readily available, who will not be appearing in court on his behalf simply giving evidence and the local authority will also be represented. They will have a record of having served notice on them and so on. Somehow we must get around the business of the courts seeking four independent witnesses while all the time Dublin's inner city goes to rack and ruin because these drug pushers and other undesirables carry on to their heart's content.
I must say this before concluding — which I acknowledge is something of a side swipe at some members of the Judiciary — I have a very high regard for the Judiciary who have a very difficult job to do, but they live in an unrealistic environment. For example, very few of them live in or adjacent to these flat complexes about which I speak and would have have had no occasion to visit them. Indeed not very many Members of this House live in or adjacent to those flat complexes but at least, as their public representatives, we have occasion to visit them regularly, to meet their tenants and discuss their problems. Those of us who are also members of local authorities see the total frustration of Dublin Corporation housing officials who are not just laughed out of court but often abused because they merely seek to do their civic duty in defending the 99 per cent of decent, law abiding, God-fearing, tenants.
It is only the other tiny percentage of people we need to be concerned about. I have to accept that this amendment may not be the way to deal with it but an amendment of this kind needs to be incorporated to give the courts the power, where the due process has been gone through by the local authority with the support of the Garda superintendent, to get these people out legally before the whole things gets out of hand completely; and what better place for it than a Public Order Bill?