Vol. 437 No. 2
11 Mr. O'Malley asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform if, in view of the fact that 75 per cent of the clients of law centres are women, he will make representations to the Government to ensure that there will be equitable representation between men and women on the Legal Aid Board.
12 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the waiting period for a new client to see a solicitor in each Government law centre as at 1 December 1993.
16 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform his response to the recent pre-budget submission made to his Department by the Coolock Law Centre and, particularly, its call for a development plan for legal services by 1997; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
22 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform his views on whether equality cases should be eligible through the civil legal aid scheme.
34 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform whether he has conducted any survey into the availability of civil legal aid in other member states of the European Union; and if so, the results of such survey.
157 Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Equality and Law Reform the location of the free legal aid centres; the identified locations for new centres to be established; if he will give a breakdown of the waiting period for a new client to avail of free legal advice; if he will give a breakdown of the waiting period in each centre under the present scheme where applicants are placed in various categories; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 11, 12, 16, 22, 34 and 157 together.
The Legal Aid Board consists of 12 members and a chairperson whose terms of office are due to expire in 1995. The current members were, with one exception, appointed before I, as Minister for Equality and Law Reform, took over responsibilities in relation to the legal aid scheme. The Department of Justice representative on the board relinquished his position on 19 October 1993 to facilitate the appointment of a representative of my Department. I availed of that opportunity to appoint a woman to the board. I am determined to achieve better representation for women on the Legal Aid Board and I will take steps accordingly when next a suitable opportunity arises.
Legal aid and advice is available at any of the 16 law centres operated by the board. There are also 19 other law centres which provide services on a part-time basis and one temporary law centre at Aston House, Dublin for the purpose of the operation of the private solicitor pilot project. The location of each law centre is set out on the list which I propose to have circulated in the Official Report.
I have frequently referred in the House to the commitment contained in the Programme for a Partnership Government to the provision of additional funding to facilitate development and expansion of legal aid. I succeeded in obtaining additional funding this year which has allowed for the recruitment of 12 solicitors. A total of 29 support staff is also in the process of being employed, and, of course, I secured a special allocation of £100,000 for the private solicitor pilot project that is currently in operation. These developments in 1993 represent the first phase of a development programme for the board which has been devised in line with the commitment in the Government's programme.
I have succeeded in obtaining £5 million as grant-in-aid for the Legal Aid Board for 1994, an increase of almost £2 million over the 1993 grant-in-aid. This will facilitate the next phase of the development programme for the legal aid scheme and it will, among other matters, make possible the opening of a number of much needed new law centres. The number and location of these new law centres will be announced in due course but in the near future.
The waiting periods in each of the board's law centres as of 8 December 1993 are set out in a tabular statement which I propose also to have circulated in the Official Report. The statement includes for purposes of comparison the waiting periods in law centres on 23 July 1993. The combination of the introduction of the private solicitor pilot project and additional solicitor staff to the law centres in that period has resulted in very significant reductions in waiting times in most law centres. While the waiting period in the Athlone Law Centre has been only marginally reduced, at this stage, to 13 months the reduction in other centres have been very significant and in some cases are between six and nine months. As a result waiting lists now in eight centres, namely, North Mall, Cork, Ormond Quay, Dublin, Clondalkin, Dundalk, Galway, Limerick, Sligo and Tralee are down to between one and two months, in four centres — Gardiner Street, Dublin, Finglas, Tallaght and Castlebar — they are down to between three and five months. In the remaining three centres — South Mall, Cork, Letterkenny and Waterford — the waiting lists are now between six and seven months. The further development planned for 1994 should reduce the waiting lists even further and it will make legal aid more accessible to applicants generally.
The waiting time for each category of case dealt with by the law centres is not available. However, priority is given to all cases which require early attention such as cases involving child abduction, domestic violence, child care and cases which could become statute barred.
With regard to equality matters the position is that legal advice in this area is already available under the scheme. Legal aid is only available where court proceedings are concerned. While the scheme does not apply to cases before tribunals at present there is a commitment in the Programme for Government to examine the possibility of extending legal aid to tribunals.
I am aware of a study carried out by FLAC on the question of access to the courts in four European countries, including Ireland, which makes brief reference to legal aid in each of the countries concerned. However, this is not a comprehensive study of legal aid and so far as I am aware there are no official comprehensive studies available on the legal aid systems in the member states of the European Union. Comparisons between the various systems is difficult because of the differences in the legal system and resources in member states. I am, however, confident that the substantial funding which this Government has committed to legal aid will make our system comparable with the best of systems elsewhere. Apart from extra funding, the Government programme also provided that the legal aid scheme should be put on a statutory footing. That legislation is in the course of being drafted and will be introduced as quickly as possible.
I have informed Coolock Community Law Centre, at a meeting which I held recently with their representatives, that a development plan for legal services is already in place. The funding of their centre has heretofore been provided by the Department of Social Welfare through the Combat Poverty Agency and I have indicated to them that that arrangement is the subject at present of an inter-departmental review.
Law Centres Operated by the Legal Aid Board.
|
Cork |
24 North Mall, Cork. |
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1A South Mall, Cork. |
|
|
Donegal |
Houston House, Main Street, Letterkenny, County Donegal. |
|
Dublin |
9 Lower Ormond Quay, Dublin 1. |
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45 Lower Gardiner Street, Dublin 1. |
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Tower Centre, Clondalkin Village, Dublin 22. |
|
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517 Main Street, Tallaght, Dublin 2. |
|
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St. Canice's Precinct, 44/49 Main Street, Finglas, Dublin 1. |
|
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Aston House, Aston Place, Dublin 2 (temporary Law Centres). |
|
|
Galway |
5 Mary Street, Galway. |
|
Kerry |
6 High Street, Tralee, County Kerry. |
|
Limerick |
Unit F, Brian Merriman Place, Lock Quay, Limerick. |
|
Louth |
The Laurels, Dundalk, County Louth. |
|
Mayo |
Humbert Mall, Main Street, Castlebar, County Mayo. |
|
Sligo |
1 Teeling Street, Sligo. |
|
Waterford |
5 Catherine Street, Waterford. |
|
Westmeath |
Northgate Street, Athlone, County Westmeath. |
Part Time Law Centres
|
Location |
Serviced by Law Centre at |
|
Carlow |
|
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St. Catherine's Social Services Centre, St. Joseph's Road, Carlow. |
Waterford |
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Clare |
|
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Clare Care, Harmony Row, Ennis. |
Limerick |
|
Kilrush Community Centre, Toler St., Kilrush |
Tralee |
|
Cork |
|
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Health Centre, O'Brien Street, Mallow. |
Cork North Mall |
|
Donegal |
|
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Donegal District Hospital, Donegal |
Letterkenny |
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Dublin |
|
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Town Hall, The Square, Bal- briggan. |
Gardiner Street |
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Citizens' Information Centre, Roselawn Health Centre, Roselawn Road, Blanchardstown, Dublin 15. |
Finglas |
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Kerry |
|
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Citizen's Information Centre, St. Anne's Road, Killarney. |
Tralee |
|
Kildare |
|
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County Kildare Centre for the unemployed, Lower Eyre Street, Newbridge, County Kildare. |
Tallaght |
|
Kilkenny |
|
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Kilkenny Social Services Centre, Waterford Road, Kilkenny. |
Waterford |
|
Louth |
|
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Drogheda Community Services Centre, Fair Street, Drogheda. |
Ormond Quay |
|
Mayo |
|
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Ballina Community Centre, Teel- ing St., Ballina. |
Castlebar |
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Health Centre, Ballyhaunis. |
Galway |
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Monaghan |
|
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Social Services Centre, Broad Road, Monaghan. |
Dundalk |
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Roscommon |
|
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Health Centre, The Crescent, Boyle. |
Sligo |
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Tipperary |
|
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North Tipperary Community Ser- vices, Loreto House, Kenyon Street, Nenagh. |
Limerick |
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Thurles Community Social Ser- vices, Rossa St., Thurles. |
Limerick |
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Citizens' Information Centre, 14 Wellington Street, Clonmel. |
Waterford |
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Wexford |
|
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Wexford Community Services Centre, St. Bridget's Centre, Roche's Road, Wexford. |
Waterford |
Law Centre Waiting List
|
Law Centre |
Waiting Time (months) |
|
|
23/7/93 |
8/12/93 |
|
|
Athlone |
14 |
13 |
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Castlebar |
7 |
3 |
|
Cork Area |
||
|
North Mall |
10 |
1 |
|
South Mall |
10 |
6 |
|
Dublin Area† |
||
|
Ormond Quay |
2 |
2 |
|
Gardiner Street |
13 |
5 |
|
Finglas |
6 |
5 |
|
Tallaght |
12 |
5 |
|
Clondalkin* |
3 |
2 |
|
Dundalk |
4 |
1 |
|
Galway |
4 |
2 |
|
Letterkenny |
12 |
6 |
|
Limerick |
10 |
1 |
|
Sligo |
1.25 |
1 |
|
Tralee |
3 |
1 |
|
Waterford |
5 |
7 |
†Because of the nature of the service it provides the concept of a waiting list does not apply to the temporary Law Centre at Aston House.
* Aston House waiting list transferred to Clondalkin.
I wish to ask three brief questions. What impact does the Minister intend the additional funding that will be available next year to have on the waiting lists and will he accept that waiting lists of anything above three to four weeks for access to a law centre are quite unacceptable?
Second, would the Minister accept that when a person is required to go before a tribunal, such as a wife appealing against an application for loan parent's allowance or for deserted wife's allowance, the decision made by the tribunal for that woman is just as important as any decision that might be made on a maintenance claim by the District Court or any other court and that legal aid should be extended to such applications?
Third, is it the Minister's view that the funding for Coolock Community Law Centre should come through his Department so that the annual wrangles over providing funding for that law centre are finally resolved and its funding provided with a coherent overall plan to provide legal aid services?
So far as the additional funding for 1994 is concerned, I consider it will have a major impact in reducing further the waiting period. As I indicated in my reply, already under the measures which I have put in place in 1993, very substantial reductions have taken place. In four or five law centres the waiting time has been reduced to one month and in some others to two months. There has been extraordinarily large reductions in the waiting lists in 1993. Quite clearly, the very impressive increase in funding which I have secured for 1994 in the Estimates, from £3 million to almost £5 million, will have a major impact in reducing even further those already shortened waiting lists.
The question of accessing free legal aid to tribunal representation also, is, as I said in my reply, a matter that is being considered. The Programme for a Partnership Government provides that that question is to be examined. Much will depend on the resources available. I agree with Deputy Shatter that the decisions made by many of these tribunals are equally as important for the people concerned as would be decisions from a normal court. The question of an examination of that matter is continuing.
Funding for Coolock law centre, as I said, is the subject of an inter-departmental review and discussions are ongoing. It would be desirable to clear up the matter once and for all and that is the reason the interdepartmental discussions are taking place. As soon as the appropriate decisions in regard to the issue have been taken, the relevant decision will be communicated to the trustees of the Coolock Law Centre.
Does the Minister accept that, despite the additional funding that will be made available in 1994, in fact our civil legal aid scheme is a disaster, in so far as it does not provide a comprehensive civil legal aid scheme nationwide? Does he not accept that we are in the position in which the scales of justice, as between the rich and the poor, are very unevenly balanced, in fact are not balanced at all and that, unless a totally new approach is adopted, that will continue to be in the position? Would he agree that all we are doing is tinkering with and adding to what is already a totally inadequate scheme?
Deputy Jim O'Keeffe suggests that the legal aid scheme is inadequate, thereby implying that very considerable sums should be expended on it. That is in stark contrast to the comments of his party's spokesperson on Finance who calls this Government a "tax and spend Government". This Government regards the question of legal aid as a matter of top priority and substantial resources have been put into the legal aid scheme in 1993, with dramatic effects. I know that Deputy O'Keeffe, and indeed all Members on the opposite side of the House, will very much welcome that achievement. The increase provided for the Legal Aid Board for 1994 is of an extent never matched by any previous Government since the whole civil legal aid scheme was initiated. Quite clearly, that increased provision will have a dramatic effect, representing nearly a doubling in resources, enabling new law centres to be opened in parts of the country which badly need them. In addition, it will enable upgrading of some of the part-time centres and the recruitment of additional staff, which represents a major breakthrough. We will watch and ascertain how it progresses as time goes on. I think the Deputy will be pleased and will welcome the achievement of this Government, and the fact that it has put its money where its mouth is on this issue.
To revert to the representation of women on the Legal Aid Board, notwithstanding the fact that the Minister availed of the opportunity to appoint one woman member himself, is it his intention, at the expiration of the term of office of the present board, to ensure equal representation of men and women on that board? Does the Minister envisage any proactive role to ensure that that might be the case in the interim? I am sure the Minister would agree that it is vital that equality cases should have the facility for legal aid and that legal aid should be extended to cases heard by tribunals. Would the Minister say precisely when he envisages these things happening? Could he give us a projected date within the next few months, at which point we could satisfy ourselves that the long waiting lists, in particular the lengthy waiting period of 13 months, are being reduced considerably, and we could ascertain how the scheme is operating? Would the Minister be prepared to prescribe a date by which we could undertake a review of the system as it will have operated to that point?
I am very glad Deputy Keogh raised the question of the gender composition of the existing Legal Aid Board. I might point out to her that when I took office the Legal Aid Board comprised male members only and was appointed by a Government in which her party had two Ministers. I have had only one opportunity to do something about that. When a vacancy arose I appointed a woman to fill it. I can assure the House and Deputy Keogh that the precedent set by her party in Government will not be followed by me, that the appropriate gender balance will be achieved on the Legal Aid Board as soon as I can do so.
So far as waiting lists at law centres are concerned, I have to admit that the one exceptional case is Athlone, where the delay has been reduced from 14 months of 13 months, quite out of line with all the other 15 law centres, many of which now have delays of as little as one month. Obviously there is some basic problem there. I have not yet ascertained the reason but have instructed my officials to make the appropriate inquiries. The waiting lists have been reduced very substantially — halved in most cases, even more in others. For example, the delay at Gardiner Street is down from 13 months or five months; at Dundalk it is down from four months to one month and at Limerick down from ten months to one month. Members will see that substantial progress has already been made in that area, and further improvements will be made when the new money for 1994 begins to take effect and we get the new centres opened up.
I have already dealt with equality cases extensively in my reply.
Would the Minister not accept that, while any reduction in the waiting lists is to be welcomed, it is still a long way from the experience of private clients in consulting a solicitor, who may walk in off the street and obtain an appointment immediately? There remains a huge gap between that latter experience and that of a person attending a civil legal aid centre.
In relation to the geographic inequity — about which the Minister is now in a position to do something — no doubt he is aware that only nine out of 26 counties actually have legal aid centres. Can he assure the House that he can set a limit to the amount of travel that must be undertaken by people particularly in rural areas, to reach a legal aid centre? Athlone is a good example, because I am sure it covers a very large catchment area involving a lot of travel that many poor women cannot afford. Does the Minister intend to initiate a plan for the development of mediation services nationwide which would ease pressure on legal aid centres and constitute a much more productive method of resolving family law matters? In view of the fact that a referendum on divorce will be held next year — possibly resulting in legislation being introduced — does the Minister intend also to extend the work of the legal aid centres in relation to tribunals? The Minister has not indicated when that might take place but, if it is the case, surely those two developments will use up many of the additional resources being put into the services and, as a result there will not be a major improvement overall?
I thank Deputy McManus for her somewhat begrudging recognition of the fact that there have been very substantial reductions in the waiting times at all law centres, with the exception of that located at Athlone. I assure her that the matter of redressing geographic inequities, to which she referred, comprises a key part of the National Development Plan. As I said in my initial reply, new law centres are to be opened in 1994 with the new funding which has been provided. The question of their geographic location will be carefully considered. I sympathise with the problems of people travelling to law centres to obtain advice and have action taken on their behalf. It was for that reason that the pilot scheme on the involvement of private practitioners was introduced. It has been a great success so far because private practitioners are located in every town. Already the operation of the private practitioners pilot scheme has enabled many people in remote areas, far away from the next nearest law centre, to obtain legal help virtually on their doorstep. Indeed, the heads of one or two of the law centres indicated that when they had communications from people living in outlying areas they were able to avail of the private practitioners' scheme by referring them to a solicitor in those remote locations. That was the purpose for which the private practitioner's scheme was designed. I understand it appears to be working reasonably well and plays a worthwhile role. Deputy McManus also raised the question of alleviation service and asked about future plans, but that should be the matter of a separate question.
I have dealt with the question of tribunals in my main reply in which I said that in the Programme for Government the question of accessibility of free legal aid for tribunals was a matter for consideration. The first priority is to arrange for the new law centres to open, to upgrade the system, have the remaining waiting lists of substance reduced even further and provide a more broadly based service throughout the country. When that is in place we will consider other aspects of extending the service, depending on what resources may be available from time to time. I am not in a position to give any specific date in that regard.
Deputies are still offering. I want to facilitate other Members who have tabled questions and, therefore, brevity would be appreciated.
I should like to raise with the Minister the problem regarding the problem of access to free legal advice by rural women. I represent the constituency of South Tipperary and the free legal aid centre for the area is in Waterford. I support Deputy McManus because, as many women cannot afford to travel to Waterford or to make telephone calls, they are severely disadvantaged. To overcome this problem of geographical location — a major problem — will the Minister extend the availability of private solicitors to provide advice or does he have proposals to establish a new legal aid centre in places such as South Tipperary?
I am not in a position to indicate at which geographic locations a new centre may be established in 1994. I confirm that the Legal Aid Board, in consultation with me, will look at areas where there is a geographic inequity in the provision of the service. That will be a prime consideration in deciding the new locations. I am sure the representations from Deputy Ahearn will be taken into account in that regard. An announcement will be made as soon as possible in 1994 when the new locations have been agreed, new premises acquired, staff taken on and so on. As far as the continuation of the private practitioner's pilot scheme is concerned, a detailed assessment of its operation will be carried out later this year or early next year. The question of its continued operation will be taken in the context of that review.
I am certain the Minister was glad of the opportunity to give a long reply to the series of questions tabled to him concerning the legal aid system. It was a rare opportunity for him to say he had good news. It applied to Ennis when members of the Labour Party announced that a new legal aid centre would be opened there. When the Minister has drawn up his new list of centres will he inform all Deputies of his proposals rather than being selective as in the past? I have had numerous inquiries regarding the location of the legal aid centre in Ennis. Will recruitment be by public competition? What assistance can be given to people? I am in the dark; perhaps the Minister would let in some light.
Unfortunately, as I said, I am not in a position to indicate where the new centres will be. One of the major improvements will be an upgrading of the areas which already have a part-time law centre. There are two part-time law centres in the Deputy's county, in Ennis and Kilrush and their upgrading is a matter for active consideration by the legal aid board in drawing up its overall plan. I am sure that what the Deputy really cares about is the fact that the increased service will be provided. How it is announced or to whom is really a secondary matter. I know the Deputy is concerned about having this facility made available to his constituents and I share that concern. That is the important thing. The nitty gritty of the announcement is neither here nor there. The Government, having provided the money, will get the credit for it one way or the other.
The Minister is taking it all today.
The Deputy will agree that is as it should be.
I am calling Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and then Deputy Flanagan for a final question. We have expended much time on this group of questions.
My Question No. 34 relates to how we fare in the league of international comparisons. Will the Minister tell the House how we fare in relation to other member states of the European Union? Can he name the member states that have a worse system of civil legal aid than we have?
I do not have the figures to indicate how we compare with free legal aid systems in other countries of the European Union. However, we compared considerably better in 1993 than in any previous year and we will certainly fare even better in 1994. The Deputy will agree the trend is in the right direction.
Is the Minister afraid to do his homework because the figures are so bad?
I wish to take up the last point, that the trend was favourable. I remind the Minister, in case it is not within the confines of his portfolio in front of him, when he speaks about new law centres and good news that the centre in Portlaoise opened amid a fanfare of publicity in 1990 and closed shortly afterwards. The reason the Minister specified the centre in Athlone in his initial reply was because it is now catering for far more in terms of numbers than originally reckoned and is dealing with the entire midlands area. Will Portlaoise be regarded as a new centre or what consideration will be given to it, having regard to the serious problem that exists in the midlands because there is virtually no legal aid system.
The locations of the centres throughout the country are being examined in depth by the Legal Aid Board. It has at its disposal the subtantial new funds which the Government decided to allocate for civil legal aid in 1994. As I said before — and it bears repeating — the new centres will be designed to cater for areas where there is insufficient provision on a geographic location basis. It should be possible to make substantial improvements having regard to the increased funding being made available. I will certainly draw to the attention of the Legal Aid Board the point made by Deputy Flanagan concerning the closure of a legal aid centre in Portlaoise. I am concerned about what is happening in Athlone and I will make inquiries in that regard. I am sure the midlands area will receive the active consideration of the board in fixing the new locations.
