Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Dec 1993

Vol. 437 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 5, 4A on a supplementary Order Paper, 6, 16, the Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 6, subject to the agreement of the Second Stage of No. 6, and Nos. 10, 11 and 17.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: 1. Business shall be interrupted not later than 7 p.m. tonight; 2. Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and No. 4A on a supplementary Order Paper shall be decided without debate; 3. The Second and Remaining Stages of No. 5 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12 noon by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform; 4. The Second and Remaining Stages of No. 6 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the debate: (i) the proceedings on the Second Stage shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 2.15 p.m.; (ii) the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 6 shall be taken after the conclusion of the proceedings on No. 16 and shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; 5. The proceedings on No. 16 shall commence at 3.50 p.m., and shall be brought to a conclusion within 75 minutes and statements shall be confined to the Taoiseach, a main spokesperson for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrats Party, the Technical Group and a Minister of State to reply, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; 6. Nos. 10 and 11 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; 7. All Stages of No. 17 shall be taken together today without debate and shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; 8. The Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a number of questions to be put to the House. Is it agreed that business be interrupted at 7 p.m.? Agreed. Is it agreed that Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 4A on a supplementary Order Paper be decided without debate? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 5 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 6 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

No. Yesterday the Government adopted a declaration which talked about consultation and dialogue and the need to take people's concerns into account. Today in the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) (Amendment) Bill, 1993, it is attempting to unilaterally change the conditions of employment of existing employees, secretaries of Members of this House, without any consultation or dialogue with those people. It is completely unfair. It is amazing that this should come from a Government which contains people who were formerly associated, in some way or other, with the trade union movement. It is a breach of the most fundamental principle of good industrial relations to unilaterally change people's terms of employment without consultation.

Mr. Bell

On a point of order——

Mr. J. Bruton

We are objecting strenuously to the taking of this Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

A brief comment at this stage is sufficient.

Miss Harney

This House is setting a very bad headline for the outside world by proceeding with this legislation without proper consultation and agreement. It is fair to say that the secretarial staff working for all parties and Deputies in this House do an outstanding job. They are all extremely worried, it is Christmas time and they do not know what their future holds. By its nature the job is temporary. They are underpaid, they work hard and the least we should do is consult and seek agreement with them before proceeding with this legislation.

Proinsias De Rossa

Certainly, there is intense concern among the staff of Deputies. I am sure every Deputy received a letter this morning from SIPTU pointing out its concerns in relation to this Bill.

A Deputy

No.

Proinsias De Rossa

Perhaps the Deputy should speak with the shop steward of his staff. I suggest to the Taoiseach that the way to deal with this matter is to take Second Stage today and to defer Committee Stage until the new year. In doing that we could enable a debate to take place on the Appropriations Bill which could conclude tomorrow at lunch-time and enable the debate on Northern Ireland to take place in the afternoon. We would resolve a number of problems both for the staff and for ourselves in terms of the scheduling of our business. The Taoiseach would be doing a service to the House by changing the order today and not bringing this Bill to a conclusion.

Deputy Bell rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

At this stage, Deputy Bell, the Chair normally hears only the spokespersons for the main parties in Opposition. I thought you rose earlier on a point of order.

Mr. Bell

First, I should say that the membership of the Labour Party parliamentary party do not agree with this decision——

A Deputy

The Deputy will get his chance.

Mr. Bell

——and have indicated that quite clearly to the party Whip. We care for our secretaries just as much as Fine Gael.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Bruton

Sir, if I may——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us not anticipate. I am on my feet, Deputy Bruton, and you may not defy the Chair in this manner. I have heard you in respect of this matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to assist you if you would allow me one second.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, we cannot debate this matter. We are anticipating debate on this issue.

Mr. Shatter

It is a very serious issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I need no help from the Deputy.

Mr. J. Bruton

I intend to say something which I hope will be helpful to the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear it.

Mr. J. Bruton

In the light of what Deputy Bell said it would appear there is a majority in the House against taking this legislation today and I ask the Taoiseach to accept the majority wish of the House.

The Taoiseach

I have to put the record straight first. Every Member is equally concerned, in my view, about the conditions of the staff who work for them and always has been. It is slightly hypocritical to come in here to try to present this case otherwise.

Mr. Yates

The Taoiseach can defer the Bill.

The Taoiseach

We are not posing any threat to the existing staff of this House. I understand that guarantees have already been given that the relevant sections would not be commenced until negotiations had taken place.

Mr. Allen

They will be law.

The Taoiseach

These will be confirmed during this debate. The Whips had agreed last week to take all Stages of the Bill last Thursday.

A Deputy

They did not know what was in it.

The Taoiseach

Please——

Mr. Allen

It was only published yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Taoiseach.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, I must insist that the Taoiseach be heard without constant interruption. Deputy Allen, please hear and obey the Chair.

Mr. J. Bruton

This is not very funny for the employees concerned.

The Taoiseach

Ciúnas would be appreciated, Deputy Bruton.

A Deputy

Deputy Bruton's party did much more when they were in Government.

Mr. J. Bruton

We did not attempt to unilaterally change their terms and conditions of employment ever. Deputies on the Government side seem to regard this as somewhat amusing.

The Taoiseach

There is no——

Mr. Shatter

The nicest man in the House is back in. Deputy Stagg, what about the workers——

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

Ciúnas would be appreciated.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter, I must ask you to desist from interrupting in this unruly fashion.

Mr. Shatter

I was provoked, Sir.

The Taoiseach

I understand the Whips have had meetings with the union and the Minister for Finance on their behalf. It was well known that guarantees would be given on Second Stage or if somebody wanted to table an amendment that certain sections of the Bill would not come into force until consultations had been completed. That is a very reasonable approach and it ensures that the welfare of the staff is fully and absolutely——

Mr. Yates

Why the rush?

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

What I cannot understand is that the Whips have been discussing this Bill and knew about it and yet there are Deputies trying to pretend in the House this morning, from a high moralistic ground, that they knew nothing about it. I want to put on the record that the Government is as concerned as anybody else——

Mr. Allen

The Taoiseach should talk to Deputy Bell.

The Taoiseach

Could I have ciúnas please?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question as soon as the Taoiseach resumes his seat. There can be no debate now Deputies. The Taoiseach has not concluded his remarks.

The Taoiseach

The Government is quite prepared to meet this in any reasonable way that satisfies the House. Does the House want to accept a guarantee from the Minister for Finance or, indeed, to let the Whips propose an amendment that can protect the interests of the staff until negotiations have been completed or does the House want the choice of not proceeding with the Bill? The Government has been approached. It is not fair to have people working a full year as chairmen of committees without having them looked after but, if the House does not want to proceed with that the Government will not force it on anybody.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question that the proposal for dealing with No. 6 be agreed to.

Mr. J. Bruton

What sort——

Mr. Shatter

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, I will not be dictated to.

Mr. Dukes

Will the Taoiseach withdraw this Bill?

Mr. J. Bruton

I appeal to the Taoiseach not to proceed with this Bill today. It is foolish to proceed with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House may divide on it. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 6 agreed?

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

If we got a little bit of respect for the Chair, we would be able to do our business in a business like manner. I am entitled to the respect that Members listen when I am speaking. I am trying to be helpful to the House. As far as the Government is concerned we will proceed with Second Stage and no more. Let the people who have taken that responsibility on their shoulders carry it.

An Ceann Comhairle

In respect of No. 6, it is proposed that the Second Stage only be taken today. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Taoiseach

Despite the fact that the agreement reached by the Whips has been broken by all sides.

Mr. J. Bruton

Sir, that reflection on the Whips is unworthy of the Taoiseach. The Whips cannot be expected to give anything other than conditional agreement to a Bill they have not seen.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with No. 16 agreed? Agreed.

Are the proposals that Nos. 10 and 11 be decided without debate agreed? Agreed.

Are the proposals in respect of No. 17 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

In case the House is not aware, this concerns the Appropriation Bill, 1993, which authorises the spending of approximately £9,000 million and the Government proposes that this be discussed without debate. I believe this is a device by the Government to prevent any debate on the economic situation before we go into recess. That is wrong and we object to the taking of this Bill without debate.

Miss Harney

I agree with Deputy Bruton. I know it is the Taoiseach's desire that the party leaders should sign a motion approving the Declaration and I would be delighted to sign it. If there is a wish to have a debate on it tomorrow, I would agree to that. Perhaps we could compromise and devote half the day to the discussion on Northern Ireland and half to the Appropriation Bill. That would be a fair compromise in the circumstances.

Proinsias De Rossa

Earlier I suggested that the time allotted to the Committee Stage of the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) (Amendment) Bill, 1993, could be allocated to the Appropriation Bill and that we could debate it until lunch time tomorrow, with the debate on Northern Ireland taking place in the afternoon. This would give the House the opportunity to confirm its support for the Declaration which the two Governments have agreed. Will the Taoiseach agree to that proposal, in other words, that the summit statements be made after Question Time and the Appropriation Bill be taken until 7 p.m. and subsequently continued until its conclusion tomorrow at 12 noon or 1 p.m.?

The Taoiseach

Having listened to the different suggestions, I propose that we take the Appropriation Bill after the statements on the European Council meeting and that we continue to 7 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed?

Proinsias De Rossa

I suggest that the debate on the Appropriation Bill should continue tomorrow morning. Is the Taoiseach prepared to accept that suggestion?

The Taoiseach

I made myself clear.

Mr. J. Bruton

How long does that allow for the debate? I think a slightly longer debate would be required for the Appropriation Bill?

The Taoiseach

About two hours.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is insufficient time to debate the spending of that amount of money.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. Dempsey)

It has been passed without debate every year for the past eight years.

Mr. J. Bruton

If Deputy Dempsey checks the record he will see it has not been passed without debate every year.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal by the Taoiseach for dealing with No. 17 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for tomorrow's sitting agreed? Agreed. We now come to the Order of Business proper.

Mr. J. Bruton

When will the extradition legislation be introduced?

The Taoiseach

I expect it to be published during the Christmas recess.

Proinsias De Rossa

In view of the British Government's decision to proceed with the THORP reprocessing plant, does the Government propose, as promised, to take legal action to have it stopped because of the serious health consequences that may arise?

An Ceann Comhairle

I feel sure the Deputy will find a more appropriate way of raising that matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

Unfortunately, Sir, I will not be able to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

I feel sure the Deputy will find a way.

Mrs. Doyle

The announcement by the British Government of the commissioning of THORP on the same day as the historic framework for peace was announced by the British and Irish Governments was a cynical political exercise designed to distract and wipe from the front pages this potentially serious development which will have the most serious consequences for the health of our children and our environment.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mrs. Doyle

Will you hear my question to the Taoiseach?

An Ceann Comhairle

Can you relate it to legislation, Deputy? Let us conform to the procedures.

Mrs. Doyle

Will the Taoiseach ensure that the right of self-determination extended yesterday by the British Prime Minister, Mr. John Major, to the people of Ireland in the Joint Declaration will also extend to the areas of human health and environmental protection?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given the Deputy quite some latitude in a matter that is clearly not in order at this time.

Mrs. Doyle

It is very serious and we will not have the time to debate it in the House for four weeks.

Mr. Sheehan

When will Ireland ratify the International Law of the Sea Treaty?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there legislation promised in this area? No. I am proceeding to No. 1.