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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 1994

Vol. 446 No. 1

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Beef Tribunal.

Ivan Yates

Ceist:

30 Mr. Yates asked the Minister for Finance the steps, if any, he is taking to minimise the legal costs associated with the Beef Tribunal; the reason no attempt was made to renegotiate the level of legal fees in the context of the unanticipated lengthy period of the Tribunal's work; and if he will specifically dispute the awarding of costs to the Goodman organisation in view of the Report's findings and the level of over-representation and excessive attendance by some parties at the Tribunal. [1224/94]

Eric J. Byrne

Ceist:

57 Mr. E. Byrne asked the Minister for Finance the administrative or procedural changes he intends to implement in his Department and in the public service generally arising from the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Beef Industry; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1585/94]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 30 and 57 together.

The amounts of claims by parties awarded costs by the tribunal will be closely scrutinised and, if necessary, vigorously contested before the Taxing Master and, if necessary, in the High Court. The work will be done by the cost accounting section of the Chief State Solicitor's Office. A legal cost accountant, specialising in legal cost claims, has been engaged to assist in this work.

Fees paid to the State legal team were set in accordance with the advice of the Attorney General, who took account of the importance and complexity of the case. Legal fees paid to the State legal team for working days when the tribunal was not in public session were reduced in January 1992 when it became apparent that the tribunal would last longer than expected. Since there were almost twice as many such days as days in public session, this renegotiation resulted in a significant saving for the Exchequer. Efforts were made to reduce the cost of counsel engaged to help complete the report and a small reduction was achieved.

Fees in relation to the beef tribunal were not allowed to rise as the hearings went on and the fees paid were at a rate considered appropriate throughout the life of the tribunal. Accordingly renegotiation, other than as I have outlined, was not undertaken. I understand that it is common for counsel to be paid at a higher rate for an unusually long assignment, since being unavailable to other clients for a long period may damage their future career and earnings prospects.

It is my intention, as I outlined some weeks ago, that every costs claim against the State will be vigorously contested in order to keep costs to the Exchequer and thus to the taxpayer to a minimum. While acknowledging the rights of all to protect their good name.

I am anxious that claims from parties who, in the light of the tribunal findings, could be considered to have brought trouble on themselves by their own actions, will be particularly keenly disputed. However, a hearing on costs claims before the Taxing Master is not the correct place to pursue allegations of tax evasion or other criminal offences. Where offences against the criminal law may have been committed, that is a matter to be dealt with through the courts in the normal way.

As regards the level of representation at the inquiry, the number of lawyers whose fees have been allowed was decided by the tribunal. That number was a good deal less than the number actually briefed by the parties concerned — 75 as against 107 claimed.

As regards excessive attendance, all claims will be closely examined when they are submitted and every avenue for reducing costs to the Exchequer will be thoroughly explored.

With regard to Deputy Byrne's question about administrative and procedural changes to be introduced, my Department has drawn up, with the Office of the Attorney General, guidelines to be applied by all Departments in respect of any future tribunals. These guidelines are designed to ensure that the legal costs in connection with tribunals are controlled to the maximum extent possible. The guidelines have been circulated to all accounting officers in Departments with the instruction that they are to be strictly implemented.

The public are outraged that the Beef Tribunal will cost more than £30 million. How was the figure of £1,890 per sitting day agreed? I understand that figure represents a High Court rate for a normal case that would take three to five days. The tribunal continued for virtually two years and barristers said to me that the rate per sitting day would be renegotiated downwards. Is the Minister aware that in the Whiddy Island case Mr. Justice Costello refused to award costs to Gulf Oil? In view of the findings against Mr. Goodman, was there not a case to be made, on the basis of tax evasion, and malpractices in respect of beef, for not awarding costs to Mr. Goodman? Is the Minister aware that some people including Members of the House, who had a minimal input in the tribunal had a full team of senior and junior counsel at the tribunal, who did not examine or crossexamine witnesses? Will the Minister vigorously contest that element of costs, which in one case may be in excess of £1.5 million?

I will vigorously negotiate the various costs with the taxing master. On whether costs can be denied to the Goodman group or anybody else, under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, the tribunal may allow parties to be legally represented. Under the tribunals of inquiry legislation of 1979 the tribunal may award the costs of such representation. There is no question of interference with that. It is a matter of legislation, and it is a matter for the tribunal in the first instance when people go before it and in the final instance when they make the report. There is no question of us being able to block that. However, we have powers, and Mr. Justice Hamilton highlighted in his report that it was a matter for the Department of Finance to appeal these issues with the taxing master. As I outlined in some detail in the House, I intend to do that, without interfering in any way with the legislation, the tribunal or legal rights.

The fees were negotiated by the Attorney General in the first instance. In January 1992 he renegotiated in respect of the non-sitting days. I agree with Deputy Yates that the costs are large even though at this stage they are hard to gauge because the only figures I have relate to the costs of the State's legal teams amounting to £3.8 million. I have only a few small claims for the remainder. There were 226 sitting days which were paid for at the full rate. There were 419 non-sitting days in respect of which renegotiation saved the Exchequer a considerable amount of money. During the debate on the tribunal I said I will dispute the costs as best I can within the terms of the legislation.

Should Deputies wish to facilitate colleagues, about eight minutes remain to conclude this and the three other questions before us.

Is the Minister aware that in previous tribunals there was no payment for non-sitting days? Instead of making a virtue out of it, why did he not ask serious questions when it became likely that instead of running on for a few months it would run for two years? Why did the Attorney General, as leader of the profession, not say that it was never intended to make millionaires of lawyers and that there should be some renegotiation? Barristers have told me that would have been eminently reasonable. Will the Minister specifically investigate people who were granted representation who sat there getting £2,000 a day on days on which there was evidence that had nothing to do with them? It was an absolute disgrace.

Where we can make a case to the taxing master that the fees were excessive we will certainly do so. Under the legislation it is up to the tribunal of inquiry to decide whether parties may be legally represented and if they may be awarded costs. Such rights are important and consistent with fundamental legal rights. When such decisions are made at the outset of a tribunal, it is not open to me to say that the fees should be adjusted.

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