Is Deputy Séamus Kirk offering? I understood that Deputy Jim Higgins was in possession and had 24 minutes remaining.
Private Members' Business. - Rural and Local Post Offices: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy J. Fox on Tuesday, 18 October 1994:
That Dáil Éireann, expressing concern at the increasing number of closures of rural and local post offices and alarmed at the serious damage being caused to the fabric of community life in rural Ireland, calls on the Government to immediately halt these closures and to reaffirm its commitment to maintain and preserve rural and local post offices.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann notes that the policy of An Post to ensure a first class postal service in rural areas is an intrinsic part of wider Government policies which are aimed, in the aggregate, at facilitating and underpinning rural renewal and development."
—(Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications).
I wish to share my time with my colleagues. Deputies Crawford and Durkan.
Is that satisfactory? Agreed.
The irony of the position in An Post, giving rise to this motion is that, rather than limping from a loss of £8.7 million to a minimal profit of £4.8 million, and chugging into automation and computerisation on a phased basis, with a proper dynamic approach An Post could be a multi-million pound, profit-making organisation contributing to this State.
The infrastructure of An Post gives it a head start over the financial institutions. That it has a network of 2,000 offices, spreading its tentacles into every community nationwide, gives it an advantage over the banks and building societies and its well trained staff, supported by a progressive responsible and co-operative union, means that it has the personnel in place. That these offices remain open from 9 o'clock each morning until 5.30 each evening, six days a week, again gives An Post a considerable edge on its competitors.
I welcome the progress, computerisation, automation and modernisation of An Post but, at a time when there is major debate on the role of the Trustee Savings Bank, the third banking force and so on, surely we should look to our State-owned post office banking system? There is no reason a vigorous development plan, a true viability plan, with emphasis on viability and expansion could not be implemented. For example, there is no reason An Post could not provide pass or credit card services, or enter into the business of current accounts, cheque books and lending facilities as do the banks, building societies and insurance companies.
Not one single insurance company, bank or building society can offer savings schemes on a par with the former index-linked savings scheme of An Post, the Savings Certificates or other savings or bonus schemes operated by the company. Yet these excellent schemes have not been adequately promoted, certainly not in terms of the huge volume they should net by way of wide-scale participation or investment in them.
There is a harvest of commercial opportunity for An Post. Is it that An Post has not got the initiative, ability, flair or enterprise to bite the bullet and run with such opportunity? Is it that An Post is being held back by restrictions, by Government policies, or what exactly is the problem? Why have we been having a debate in this House over the past two evenings almost apologising for the inability of An Post to be the throbbing, vibrant, energetic, profitable and competitive organisation it should be? We have discussed the provisions of the ACC Bill for the best part of four hours this afternoon when Members alluded to the vast, excessive profits being made by the banks. One need only look at bank profits to clearly see the harvest of commercial opportunity there. For example, in 1993 the Bank of Ireland made £280 million clear profit and the AIB group a profit of £293 million. One can go right down through the various banks to the very smallest, the National Investment Bank, and see that it made £7.98 million. Yet, here we have a Stateowned institution with a highly trained network of staff, with offices spreading throughout every single community which has failed miserably to exploit the commercial opportunities staring it in the face.
Rather than dismantling the subpost offices which cost the company virtually nothing — amply illustrated by CORPO, the Cork-based organisation and by Deputy John Fox and other Members in the House last evening — or relegating the offices in smaller towns and shedding jobs An Post should develop a five-year expansion plan with specific targets so that, by 1999, as we face into the new millennium, An Post will be a vigorous, profit-making commercial organisation which it is very definitely not now. It could do that and continue to provide a top class service to its customers.
I welcome the decision by the chief executive of An Post, Mr. John Hynes, to keep Carracastle subpost office open. In the light of the commitments given and the misunderstandings that arose, I commend him on doing the right thing, which was not easy in view of the decision taken previously. A commitment should be given that no other sub-post office will be closed. We should consolidate not dismantle; we should build and not disband; we should retain our post offices and the post office network as an integral part of revamped An Post operations that would give it an edge over its keenest commercial competitors.
The Minister quoted the Culliton report last evening in the context of postal costs and so on. However, it is also worth recalling that the Culliton report spoke about the need for greater emphasis on the untapped job potential in the service sector. In An Post we have a service sector, with an elaborate infrastructure already in place. Let us not shoot ourselves in the foot by destroying what should be the key component in the development of An Post.
I am for rationalisation and for cost-cutting measures where necessary but, in this case, it is not rationalisation, it is irrational and does not make any sense. I was not at all assured by the Minister's contribution last evening when he merely confirmed the policy of An Post to implement a gradual system of closure, of natural wastage, whenever the next of kin are not in a position to display an interest in retaining an office. This is a subtle policy of closure and it is not acceptable.
I thank Deputy Higgins for sharing his time with me.
I welcome this opportunity to debate An Post, rural decay and the lack of Government interest in retaining people in rural areas. In many ways An Post has provided a good service to rural and other communities over the years. I was extremely interested in listening to the comments and suggestions of Deputy Jim Higgins on how it could and should be improved. I want to comment on the more human aspects of what An Post has meant and should mean in the future in rural areas.
There is a notion that through natural wastage matters will rectify themselves. In Monaghan recent efforts have been made to withdraw postal sorting services from village post offices and transfer them to larger centres, thereby reducing the need for auxiliary postmen, many of whom have served for 20 or more years. At a time of high unemployment when it is supposedly in the national interest to keep people at work such a move would be a major retrograde step. For the aged and the not so old who live alone in rural areas the visit of the postman is appreciated. Recently in the Ballybay region there were six old people's dwellings to be filled but because of concern about the impact of the closure of post offices and the fall in garda numbers in rural areas, more than 40 people, mainly rural dwellers, sought to occupy those houses. In some areas efforts were made to introduce green boxes to reduce community Garda services, but in the main they were unsuccessful. A few were introduced but that was a retrograde step at a time when we are trying to keep people in rural Ireland. It is not the responsibility of An Post to enable people to remain in rural areas but it is a State institution and it must have regard to present circumstances.
What will be the next measure if the sorting facility is removed from village post offices? People are concerned that if that service is removed, the auxiliary activities to which it gives rise would no longer be needed, postmen would not carry messages to the post office and they would fall into decay and be closed. An Post proposed to close 550 post offices in 1991, but because of the local elections and a fear of the impact of such action at the polling booths that proposal did not go ahead. Now they are being closed by stealth. Careful attention must be given to the long term effect of such closures on the viability of rural areas.
Last night the Minister stated how well the Government was looking after the rural community and that is one of the main reasons I wanted to contribute to the debate tonight. He said that the Government was pursuing policies which were contributing to low inflation and low interest rates. That must be a joke. Does the Government's decision to award the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Ministers a 17 per cent pay increase represent an effort to maintain low interest rates? Does that decision encourage workers, who are receiving less today than this time last year, to refrain from seeking wage increases? Does it encourage the workers of Irish Steel, An Post or other organisations to work for the benefit of this country? I come from a Border county which suffered most from the debacle of the sterling related problems when interest rates went through the roof over 12 months ago. Government action did not help. Interest rates fell in spite of the Government, not because of it, yet a Minister claims credit and asserts that he is doing everything possible for rural Ireland.
We have had promises of decentralisation to Monaghan. In the light of peace in the North, which we all applaud, it is possible there will be fewer Garda and Army personnel in the constituency in the long term. The Minister talks glibly about decentralisation. He should ensure that as few post offices as possible are closed, thereby retaining their services in the constituency.
The Minister referred to what had been done under the Leader Programme. That programme has been successful but if the Government gets its way the funds available to the new Leader Programme, which covers a longer period than the older one, will be scattered so broadly throughout the country that it will be of little use. Whatever benefit the Leader Programme had in the past, it is likely to have a limited benefit in the future.
The Deputy seems to be straying widely from post offices to the Leader Programme.
Meandering, I would say.
I am speaking on the proposal made by Deputy John Fox. I referred to the comments made yesterday by the Minister and I am not aware that he was chastised in respect of them.
The subject matter of the motion is the closure of post offices.
I urge An Post to remember that opportunities exist to develop the post office service. I am aware that it intends to extend a computerised system to many post offices. An Post is improving its services in some areas but it should not forget the role played by rural post offices or remove postal services from those areas.
I support this motion. I dislike the move to curtail services to isolated rural areas. As a Deputy who resides 240 miles away from the centre of power in Dublin, I am fully aware of the position in rural Ireland. Unless we safeguard the future of post offices and sub post offices we will deal a death blow to the fabric of rural society. I have to travel ten miles to the nearest bank to cash my monthly cheque from Dáil Éireann.
I do not want to see rural Ireland without post offices to facilitate the people who live there. It is enshrined in our Constitution that every citizen should be treated equally. If post offices in urbanised areas are making money for An Post it should percolate to the most remote post office in Ireland. We cannot all live in Donnybrook or other urbanised areas. I live 20 miles from the nearest town, Bantry, and I do not know how I survive. If the Minister has any humanity he will ensure that rural post offices are maintained for posterity.
The rural post office has given great service over the years. When I was a small boy going to school I was able to buy savings certificates at the post office. I do not know how many school-children now have savings certificates.
You were a thrifty boy.
My savings certificates quickly disappeared when I tried to get elected to this House. To the Minister's credit he goes to the trouble of going down to my peninsula now and then.
I love the Deputy's part of the country; he knows that.
Hands off the rural post offices and keep the fabric of rural life going. It is very difficult to run a postal service that covers an area from Skibbereen or Schull to the extreme end of the Mizen Peninsula, from Bantry to the extreme end of the Béara Peninsula, or from Bantry to Sheep's Head Peninsula. I am fortunate — or maybe unfortunate — to have three peninsula areas in my constituency, thinly populated, where a visit from the postman, even if he brings a bill, is welcomed by some of our old people.
I urge the Minister to ensure that under no circumstances will the closure of rural post offices be permitted. As a Minister and Deputy representing a rural area, he should understand the position and I implore him not to allow An Post to close post offices in rural areas. As far as post offices are concerned, the element of profit should be taken out of the reckoning.
Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on this motion. I wish to share my time with Deputies Ó Cuív and Batt O'Keeffe.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Those of us who were in the Chamber last night heard the Minister's excellent analysis of the postal service generally. One could not but be taken by the description of the postal service as it is at present and the development and expansion plans for it in anticipation of the competition with which An Post will have to contend in the wake of the liberalisation of mail services in the Community.
The reality is that we live in an ever-changing world. Population movement, demands for a more efficient service and for better working conditions and greater mobility of customers, demand a greater range of services. All this applies to most of the range of services required by our population.
The postal service has not escaped the changes. Population movement, whether caused by economic changes in rural areas or the tendency to concentrate population along the east coast, particularly in the greater Dublin area, impacts on planning for the postal service. Post offices in rural areas have always been and continue to be a focal point in every parish. When there were fewer motor vehicles than today everybody in a parish used the post office at some time or another. However, times have changed and rural post offices have lost out to bigger offices with a wider range of services in nearby towns. Many in the Chamber will remember a time when visits to the town for shopping were organised on a once a week basis. Such expeditions are now organised on a more regular basis. The advent of the two car family and general economic changes in the employment arena have seen postal transactions and business operating from the larger post office outlets in the medium and larger towns. There are many instances of people living cheek by jowl with the post office in their local parish who, whether collecting their social welfare payment or availing of some other service that An Post provides, drive six or seven miles to the nearest town. Confidentiality is a consideration; people like to transact business without their next door neighbour knowing it.
When the Culliton review of industrial policy was published Members accepted many of its conclusions and recommendations. Two of the important recommendations related to reduced telephone and postal charges. The reality is that An Post, under the direction of the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, is actively pursuing a cost reduction policy. In his script last night the Minister said that the difference in domestic rates in the EU generally as distinct from this country is about 13 per cent. We cannot live in isolation within the EU. In population terms we may be small and, some may believe, an insignificant member, but we are subject to the normal cost and competitiveness that exists in an economic bloc such as the EU. Unless we bring our costs into line we will be at a serious disadvantage.
The development of the automated counter service delivery systems was heralded by the Minister last evening. We all agree that if An Post is to survive and prosper, automation will have to become the norm in its development programme. The Minister stated that there is one post office for every 1,800 people. In the UK there is one post office for every 2,500 people and in Portugal there is one post office for every 7,000 people.
You cannot compare Ireland with Portugal.
In 1990 An Post lost approximately £8.7 million. Recent figures indicate that that position has been turned around. As is clear from the Minister's script, An Post would need to be in a profitable position to help fund the development plans envisaged for it. Our postal service cannot operate in isolation. The completion of the Single Market has clear implications for it. Liberalisation and better service demands are ever present.
Previous speakers have focused on the area of rural development and I think there is consensus on that issue. There is a great need for rural development. Those who are in the business of organising rural housing co-operatives, encouraging local community initiative, developing Leader programmes in their respective areas and actively encouraging the development of small industry in towns and villages in rural Ireland do an immense service. There are many people working in a voluntary capacity who do not get the recognition they deserve.
While people are living in parishes in rural Ireland the demand for postal services and the prospect of maintaining as many viable post offices as possible will exist. On the basis of the Minister's comments last night, it is clear that there has been a process of reduction in the number of sub-post offices. This is not a trend that began 12 months ago; it has been ongoing for many years. It is taking place in tandem with the unfortunate process of depopulation in some of the areas referred to by Deputy Sheehan.
The Deputy is not labouring in that vineyard.
Many rural areas in my constituency have much in common with the rural areas in the Deputy's constituency, whether in Goleen, Crookhaven, Skibbereen, or wherever.
Crocodile tears.
I am satisfied the Minister has given a firm commitment to upgrading, modernising and improving the postal service for all the people of Ireland, which is very important. Hand in hand with that, the thrust must be to reduce the overall cost of postal services——
At the expense of the rural dweller.
——and to bring them into line with costs in other member states.
Deputy Sheehan had a very good hearing and he must extend the same courtesy to other speakers.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to support the Minister in his efforts.
It is good the Deputy is not from a rural constituency.
Cuireann sé áthas orm deis a fháil labhairt ar an ábhar seo. Ba mise an chéad Seanadóir a labhair ar an ábhar seo nuair a chuir An Post an moladh ar aghaidh go rabhadar chun 500 oifig phoist a dhúnadh cúpla bliain ó shin. Ag an am sin, ag caint sa Seanad, dúirt mé nárbh leor díreach na hoifigí poist a chaomhnú ach go raibh gá leis na seirbhísí a bhí acu a fherbairt. Tá áthas orm go bhuil sin déanta ó shin. Tá áthas orm, freisin, go bhfuil dul chun cinn á dhéanamh go mór mhór i gcomhthéacs ríomhairí le gur féidir seirbhísí éifeachtacha a chur ar fáil ar fud na tuaithe. Ainneoin go bhfuil comhnaí orm i ndúiche "The Quiet Man", níor ghlac mé leis riamh go raibh sé sách maith i gcomhthéacs na tuaithe a bheith ag caomhnú go sean-fhaiseanta an rud a bhí ann ach go gcaithfí an rud atá ann a fhorbairt agus a dhéanamh feiliúnach don nua-aois.
I was surprised last night to hear an Opposition Deputy bemoaning the demise of the telegram as a way of sending urgent messages. As somebody who has been intimately involved in rural development for 20 years and who lives in a rural community, I believe the need for telegrams is long past because we have the telephone and the fax machine.
We were thankful for Marconi.
The idea that rural people are in some way different and can work at a slower pace has hastened the demise of rural Ireland.
The Deputy's grandfather would not say that.
Déarfadh sé, cinnte. For 20 years I have worked to make sure that all modern facilities are available in rural Ireland, and the preservation of the rural post office as it existed would not fit into that scheme. What we need is a development of postal services: computerisation, which is taking place; an extension of the services available from the post office, which is taking place; and the agency through the post office of facilities such as social welfare services, which is taking place also.
To the detriment of rural Ireland.
Bringing these services to rural Ireland is not to the detriment of rural Ireland.
Deputy Sheehan should restrain himself.
I do not know what the position is in west Cork, although I was there on holidays this year——
The Deputy should come down——
Deputy Sheehan knows full well that there is a strict time limit to this debate. Interruptions are particularly unwelcome, if not disorderly.
In the community in which I live development has taken place by adopting modern technology to local needs, not by closing the door against modern technology. Of course we want to preserve our local institutions; I do not want to see local post offices, national schools or Garda stations closed. We are all agreed on that, but to preserve them in some frozen form of the 19th century will ensure their ultimate demise. Too many services in rural Ireland have been destroyed by an unwillingness at State and local level to adapt to change, particularly in technology.
I would like to see a huge range of services provided at post offices, most of which would be based on one of our greatest assets, the telephone service. With the use of computers, it should be possible in time to provide banking and social welfare services and perhaps even deal with headage applications.
Five years ago our post office services were run down. A person who wanted to withdraw £50 from the Post Office Savings Bank had to send their deposit book to Dublin. I hope this debate does not mark a return to that untenable position. It was a positive decision to introduce technology and computerise 1,200 post offices and allow the Department of Social Welfare to make use of them. This will ensure that they remain viable as a central service in the community. I am happy that the Government is approaching the matter in the right way and I hope An Post will continue to examine the question of services which can be provided at post offices.
Ba mhaith liom an obair atá ar bun le cúpla bliain agus an t-athrú polasaí a tháinig ar An bPost de bharr na hagóide a rinneamar a mholadh. Tá súil agam freisin go ndéanfaidh siad iad a fhorbairt sa chaoi is go mbeimid cinnte go mbeidh seirbhísí forleathana ar fáil ag an bpobal ó na hoifigí poist ar fad.
I welcome this important motion which gives us an opportunity to ask if the Government has a commitment to rural Ireland——
None.
——if this can be improved upon and if advances have been made.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): It can be improved upon.
It is not accurate to say that rural Ireland is dying because An Post is closing down post offices. It is important to ask, however, the effect closure of post offices would have on the fabric of rural Ireland. It is also important that we outline the facts. During the past ten years 26 per cent of the post offices where a postmaster or postmistress retired or died were closed; the remaining 74 per cent remain open. We should ask ourselves how many banks have been closed under the banks' rationalisation programme.
On the question of the Government's commitment to rural Ireland we should advert to its policies as contained in the Programme for Government.
It is closing schools, Garda stations and post offices.
Increased Structural Funds have been secured for the tourism programme which is being implemented. We should ask ourselves what effect will this funding have on the fabric of rural Ireland. Are people being attracted from our major cities and from abroad to see what rural Ireland has to offer? This programme is succeeding admirably and increasing numbers are being attracted. This means that an increased number of jobs will be available and that the migration of people to the larger cities can be halted.
That is wishful thinking.
Last year under the Leader Programme £35 million was injected into the rural economy. A greater sum will be invested under the Leader II Programme. What we are saying to people living in rural Ireland is that they should develop a programme to create jobs to keep people at home. In many instances the Leader Programme has been successful. Under the Leader II Programme we will reap the benefits.
It would be foolish of the Government not to refer to the fact that the county enterprise boards have been established. We should ask those who question the commitment of the Government to rural Ireland what is the purpose of these boards and what they hope to achieve.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): A good question.
What about the results?
They have been excellent.
The purpose of the country enterprise boards is to provide funding for those who produce start up programmes. This should ensure that those who have migrated from rural Ireland to the cities can be attracted back and this, in turn, can lead to the preservation of the local post office, school and Garda station. Although I represent a city constituency I come from a rural background——
The Deputy has a cosy corner.
——and I am anxious to ensure that this will be the position. I have asked the Minister and the Government to ensure that we do not have two opposing policies — that, on the one hand, we do not put the Leader Programme, tourism enterprises and county enterprise boards in place, and on the other, close down post offices and schools. People must be given an opportunity to create jobs under the various programmes and the Government must be seen to have a commitment to ensuring that social services are maintained and subsidised.
An Post deserves great credit. It must be remembered that under its rationalisation programme it sought the closure of 550 post offices. The Minister of the day also deserves great credit for deciding that the programme could not proceed and for asking how the service could be rationalised and made more cost effective. It is interesting to note that over a four-year period An Post has invested £50 million, over half of which has been invested in the provinces, and plans to invest a further £20 million per annum during the next five years.
What is it being spent on? No new post offices have been provided.
We need a progressive semi-State sector. An Post inherited an organisation that was not as economically viable as it should have been. There is no doubt it needed to implement cost effective measures and it has embarked on a programme of cost effectiveness——
——to the detriment of rural Ireland——
——which can be seen in the reduction of the deficit from £8.7 million to a profit of £4.7 million last year. That is a major achievement and the statistics speak for themselves. The numbers of post offices closed have been kept to an absolute minimum.
An Post should also be lauded for its investment programme. It is building new regional mail centres throughout the country and I understand a centre is to open in Athlone shortly. We must ask ourselves if we want to ensure that by and large, mail is delivered the following day. I am aware that 98 per cent of mail from Dublin is guaranteed delivery in Cork on the following day.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Not from here.
An Post has set up a procedure to deliver mail from London to Cork and the length of time it takes for mail to travel to Cork has been reduced to overnight. Members referred to the programme of decentralisation. I know Deputy Sheehan of all people does not have a short memory and he will recall that when his party was in Government in the period 1982-87 the then Minister for Finance, Deputy John Bruton, scrapped the programme of decentralisation. We had to wait until Fianna Fáil returned to Government in 1987 to implement it.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): We had the Battle of the Boyne in 1014.
How many Government offices have been brought to the city by the Lee?
Under the decentralisation programme 500 jobs have been transferred to Cork city.
The Deputy's party will be showering money like confetti for the next three weeks.
Now that we are fighting a by-election we will be able to tell the people on the doorstep that 500 people from Dublin have jobs in the Mahon area, this will regenerate the area and bring Cork people back into the city and the county, something that Fine Gael decided it would not do. The people of Cork will thank God for Fianna Fáil.
The Deputy's party will not cod the people of Cork this time.
Long may it last in Government and let them bring back two Fianna Fáil Members.
Ba mhaith liom cúig nóiméad den am atá agam a roinnt leis an Teachta Ring.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Ar dtús ba mhaith liom a rá go dtugann mo Pháirtí lán-tacaíocht don rún atá os comhair an Tí. Cuireann sé ionadh orm nach raibh an Rialtas sásta glacadh leis an rún seo agus go bhfuil siad ag iarraidh é a athrú sa bhealach atá leagtha síos acu anseo. Nuair a bhí an tAire ag labhairt anseo aréir dúirt sé rudaí a bhí contráilte i mo thuairim féin.
I thought the Minister contradicted himself and I would like to draw his attention to what he said in his speech last night. He said there would be no lessening in the number of sub post offices operating or in the level of counter service available to the public, yet earlier in the speech the quoted section 12 of the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, stating that the company's present policy, with which he agrees is "to consider an office for closure when the incumbent postmaster retires or dies, when no family member wants to continue to run the office, where the turnover in the office is too low to give a long term sustainable living from the job and where there is, within a reasonable distance, another post office to which the business can be transferred". He says there is nothing new about closure of sub post offices under this policy, with which he agrees. He gives figures for the number of post offices which have been closed, 235 in all. The Minister seems to imply in that part of his address to the House that he had no objection to the continuation of further closures but later he seems to imply the opposite. There is a contradiction and perhaps he will clarify the matter.
With the increasing competition in the communications industry brought about by technological advances and rapid changes in the demands of consumers it is recognised that incumbent firms must take steps to cut costs to be able to sustain their position in the industry and carry out further development and growth. For this reason it is argued that so-called loss making services which these firms may provide would have be be eliminated or the cost of providing them borne by those who utilise the service. The provision of counter services in rural areas tends to be regarded as loss making by postal administrations. There is a number of reasons such services should not be done away with in rural areas. The reason given for the closure of rural postal counter services is that it is a necessary procedure to be able to compete with new entrants to the industry, it is argued that rural postal services are loss making and, hence, need to be cross-subsidised. However, to be able to cross-subsidise them it is held that consumers of the more profitable services have to be overcharged. This makes An Post less competitive in respect of providing more profitable services in the market. Hence the argument is put forward that maintaining the rural post office leads to an increase in price to consumers and continued reduction of An Post's share in the profitable market. The viability plan called for the closure of 550 sub post offices. I want to draw the attention of Members to the New Zealand experience which indicates that, to become more competitive instead of closing counter service at rural outlets, the number of outlets should be increased.
New Zealand is one of the most deregulated countries in the world in economic terms. It is also one of the few countries where a full comprehensive economic survey has been carried out of the postal services, including rural postal services and counter services in rural post offices — exactly what this motion is about. Let me repeat, New Zealand is renowned as one of the most advanced deregulated economies and as a result the level of competition in their market for public utility goods and services, including postal services, is intense. In 1987 the postal services provided for the corporatisation of New Zealand's post, that its postal service was to be run as a commercial entity responsible for its own profits and losses, would no longer be propped up by Government subsidisation and protection and would have to become as competitive as any other firm operating in the industry. In 1994, seven years later, the New Zealand post office is still a state owned enterprise and the company which operates in a market which is almost entirely deregulated has a reliability level of at least 95 per cent and often 99.9 per cent on next day deliveries. It employs 8,671 people, including full-time and part-time staff but excluding subsidiaries. It has converted substantial losses in its postal services into substantial profits.
The House will be particularly interested to know what happened to the counter service in rural areas in New Zealand. At its inception in 1987, the New Zealand Post inherited 1,244 retail outlets but in 1994 it has 4,738 such outlets. Instead of closing down its outlets it expanded and plans to continue to do so. It should be noted that this is the practice of a commercial entity and not one that it is forced to operate in the public interest. New Zealand Post has increased the number of outlets because they generate profits through increasing availability of postal services for consumers and hence an increased demand. How has it managed to operate such a large number of outlets feasibly? It has done so by increasing the number of services available at each outlet. For example, the range of postal related merchandise was developed to be sold in these outlets.
The merchandise includes postcards, greeting cards, easy to assemble cardboard boxes and protective envelopes in which customers may package items for posting. The outlets also became agents for the collection and maintenance of licensed data on behalf of State regulatory agencies in the transport industry, the collection of broadcasting licences and for various transactions on behalf of the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and other central Government services. It also became an agency for local government services and supplied services to major companies.
The viability of sub-post offices could also be increased if the range of services which they can provide is increased. The majority of our rural sub-post offices, approximately 1,100 out of the total of 1,854, are termed "non-dedicated", that is their business not only includes trade and postal services but they may also trade as newsagents, grocery stores, etc. If An Post considers it viable, a contract is offered to permit the grocer or newsagent provide postal services. The salary which the postmaster receives will depend upon the earnings of that post office and out of that salary the postmaster must pay for the lighting, heating and rent of his premises which are necessary to provide the services. If An Post is calculating correctly, the costs of these services are minimal. As the location of the post office is often in another type of shop, the economies of scope which are available, and hence the low cost that these would accrue, mean there is little justification for closure of these facilities on a cost basis. In fact, they increase the availability of postal services to consumers thereby raising the demand for services and benefiting the industry as a whole.
For industry to develop in rural areas, which is essential if high levels of migration arising from high unemployment are to be reduced, it is vital that support industries, such as financial and communications services etc. are available. In other words, to encourage the location of industries in areas other than in the major cities, it is paramount that services such as a postal service are located nearby. In considering a small rural firm, closure of local facilities would increase the costs of mailing because of an increase in the distance which that firm would have to travel to avail of postal services. This is obviously detrimental to firms at a time when we must do everything in our power to encourage enterprise. As the Culliton report pointed out, the development of the country's communication network is vital for industry. Instead of closures there should be a concentration on expansion on the lines of the developments in New Zealand.
A postal service is often regarded as a public utility good, one provided, regardless of whether it is profitable, because of its importance to society. Even if rural sub-post offices are regarded as not being lucrative, the Government has a duty to the public utility characteristic of postal services, as outlined in the EC Green Paper on the development of the postal industry, which emphasised the need for a universal service. This should include not only the collection and delivery of mail but also the accessibility to all the postal services. It is important to remember that the public utility characteristic provides justification for the postal monopoly. If, on the other hand, the postal services were not regarded as an essential utility, there would be no reason such a postal industry should continue to be given the protection by legislation of a monopoly.
This motion expresses concern at the increasing number of closures of rural and local post offices. My party supports the motion on the contention that there is no justification for closures on grounds of increased competition taking into account developments in New Zealand where competition is intense and bearing in mind that New Zealand is one of the few places where any comprehensive survey of the whole operation of rural post offices, has been undertaken.
The motion is worthy of support because there is no justification for closures on cost grounds as most of the sub-post offices are located in newsagents and premises where other services are already provided. The economies of scope which these accrue mean that the selling of postal services is minimal. We support the motion also on the grounds that this service is essential for the development of industry and subsequent employment in rural areas. It is also required under European Union commitments that a postal service is a public utility good which a Government must ensure is available to all its citizens. The Progressive Democrats fully support the motion.
I thank Deputy Molloy for sharing his time with me. As a rural Deputy I support this motion because if rural areas are to survive they must have post offices, schools, shops and churches. Also, local authorities must build small schemes of houses which will keep the people in these areas.
I did not hear any Member today refer to the people who run An Post and I am talking about the pinstripe brigade. The people in charge of the semi-State companies have taken a bad example from the Government and I refer to the various managerial jobs created in An Post. We never hear the management of An Post saying that in regard to job cuts they will start at the top. Instead they focus their attention on the rural post offices that cost them very little and when they have obtained the necessary cuts in that area they move on to the postmen. It would take three postmen to replace one of the men in the pinstripe suits.
The proposal to close rural sub-post offices is an attack on rural areas. It is easy for An Post to make these decisions in Dublin because they do not know the effects they will have on the people living in the west and other rural areas. The postman delivers the mail to isolated areas; he visits once a week and lets the householder know what is happening in the town.
Semi-State companies now appoint programme managers. Gardaí in rural areas are being removed and the next attack will be on the schools. We cannot allow this continue. I am surprised at this action of the Government, particularly Fianna Fáil, which has always said it is in favour of development of rural areas. How can the Government support rural areas when it is taking away our post offices and schools and will not provide proper school transport for our children who must travel 15 and 20 miles to the nearest school?
I am delighted this motion, which deserves support, is before the House. I am happy that the people of Carracastle recently stood their ground and said that enough was enough. This Government talks about saving the west. There is little point in talking about saving the west if there will be cutbacks in our schools, school transport and post offices. That is not saving the west. All we hear from the Government are words and no actions. The Government should leave our rural post offices alone and if it wants to attack An Post, it should do so at top or middle management. It should remove some of the men in pinstripe suits because they are making decisions in Dublin affecting the people in the west and other rural areas. That is wrong and I will tell the people in the west that in future we will stand up for ourselves and we will not take such treatment from any Government.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Fox.
That is satisfactory and agreed.
I welcome the fact that this motion has been put forward by the independent Members. Many of us are aware of the closures that are taking place at such a rate that the original plan of so-called rationalisation of post offices is coming into force by stealth. An Post adopts an air of injured innocence when tackled on this point. However, it is clear from the evidence on the ground that the drive to undermine rural post offices, and communities as a consequence, is active.
The Minister outlined policy on the closure of post offices and argued that there was natural end to a post office where the owner retired or died, where a family member did not wish to take up the option and where business was on a small scale, as if somehow these conditions justified the closure. I would argue differently. Anyone who knows what is happening on the ground knows that support should be provided for a post office rather than taken away. There are many instances where young people have taken over post offices which were in serious decline due to the age of the previous owner. They are fully committed to upgrading the service and just when they are at the point where their initiative is about to be realised An Post pulls the rug from under them and closes the post office. This happened in Bray and conflicts with the idea of good business and developing a product which An Post prides itself on doing.
There is no reason why a small post office, whether rural or urban, should not have a strong and viable existence in modern life. There are many services a post office could provide, as Deputy Molloy stated. In the area of modern technology they could offer simple services such as fax, photocopying and the various forms of information technology which are crucial to small businesses operating in rural communities with the support of a county enterprise board or the Leader Programme. It would be a tremendous boon for small communities and local enterprise to have that resource. The development of the tele-cottage is an indication of the direction in which An Post should go in providing services within communities.
Instead of expanding services and keeping up with the times their knee jerk response is based on old style thinking which fails to recognise the changes in rural communities. Instead of seeing a rural post office as a resource with potential the crude, shortsighted response is to close it. A number of post offices were closed in my constituency, one in a rural area around Kilquiggan where the impact of the closure is serious. It should be remembered that it is not simply the business carried out by a post office that benefits the local community, it is also the business a post office brings into a community. Social welfare cheques, old age pensions and long term retirement payments are paid out at post offices which means local people will spend money in adjoining shops. If closures continue we will such out the economic supports from local communities and centre them in larger communities.
The most modern thinking on economic development transcends the market-led view of centralisation and the concept that big is always beautiful. If there is to be local economic growth there must be services and sources of wealth which encourage local development. A properly managed post office can play such a role. At present post offices are not given that chance by an organisation and a Government which claims to be in favour of good business.
The need is no less great in urban areas where it is often the elderly or parents of young children who avail of the services. They often do not have cars. Poor working class areas already find their isolation is a fact of life because of inadequate transport systems and the closure of local banks and post offices. In my own area a small local post office which was the hub of local community activity was closed down over night because the previous owner retired, even though young people were willing to take it over and build up the business.
There has been an emphasis on rural post offices but it is not just a rural matter. The fabric of society is underpinned by economic and social services. The enriching feature of a local post office cannot be reduced to a matter of profit and loss. The knock-on impact of a post office in the community is inestimable, as is the impact when a post office is closed. Many local communities watched jealously as An Post reversed its decision to close a small post office at Carracastle, County Mayo. I commend the people for their battle but their success was due to the nationwide attention given to the matter by Gay Byrne. It is a sign of the paucity of leadership in Government when it is Gay Byrne who determines the survival of a post office.
We will have to take him to many more areas around the country.
He can do a nationwide tour. Speaking as a Deputy from a rural county which has within its boundaries urban areas of great deprivation, I and my party fully support the motion and the importance of the role of the post office in community development.
At EU level, the arguments put forward by Government have to do with subsidiarity, a bottom up approach enabling us at national level to have a say over our destiny. The same arguments hold true at local level — a factor which is consistently disregarded and swamped by the raucous demand for rationalisation and the dictates of the market overall.
We are elected to serve the people and it is our responsibility to ensure that the services and opportunities they need to develop enterprises within local communities are in place. The Government has failed in its duty to provide post offices and the Minister has a responsibility to right the wrongs committed at local level. These will continue to be committed unless the Government changes the overall policy on services for local communities, whether rural or urban.
It is interesting that there is only one Minister present and no other Deputy on the Government side.
No backbencher.
There are two by-elections in Cork, neither of which I am involved in as an Independent.
The Deputy is welcome to participate.
Cork is under threat from the An Post viability plan. There are 22 offices under serious threat of closure and the people there have formed a group known as CORPO, calling for the conservation of rural post offices. It is not enough to pay lip service to such matters at election time.
I thank those who supported the motion for their positive contributions. There were some positive aspects in the Minister's speech which must be acknowledged. The amendment is an expert piece of side-stepping and illustrates that when we handed over the drafting of policy to programme managers and senior civil servants we also handed over the drafting of answers. This is a major side-step by the Government.
New low depths.
The word "aggregate" is not often used in politics, it is mainly associated with international soccer at club level where a team which loses three goals to nil away and wins four goals to nil at home will qualify. The Government seems to be using this principle to defend the decision to close rural and local post offices, that the number of viable and well run post offices means that the post offices in some areas can be closed down, that the service and balance sheet has been improved and everything is hunk'y-do'ry.
It is extraordinary that the Deputies opposite who represent rural areas — Deputy O'Keeffe should know better — would suggest that the introduction of technology is not welcomed in rural areas. Of course, this is not the case. Deputy Kirk said people did not mind driving six to ten miles to a post office. However, he forgets that the post office is the poor man's bank and that an old age pensioner receiving £70 per week would not have a car and would probably have to pay someone to drive him to a post office to collect his pension. This is a fact of life in rural Ireland and it is disingenuous of the Government to suggest it is covering all aspects in its amendment.
Our motion calls on the Government to persevere and maintain rural and local post offices and makes no reference to post offices doing good business. I take this opportunity to compliment An Post for the improvements in the postal service. However, improvements cannot continue to be made at the expense of people in rural areas who need the services provided by their local post offices.
This is far too serious a matter to call the salaries paid to postmasters and post-mistresses a joke, but a salary of £80 per week is not adequate and needs to be reconsidered. I am sure these people would receive more than £80 per week in unemployment assistance. The closure of post offices will not lead to a saving; rather it will lead to further expenditure.
The services provided by rural post offices are a basic requirement of the old, poor and vulnerable in society. I very much enjoyed Deputy Sheehan's contribution but I do not entirely agree that a postman is welcome even if he is delivering bills. This may be okay on one or two occasions but if he continues to deliver bills and nothing else on a daily basis he will quickly wear out his welcome. I agree that the postman's knock is a very welcome sound to old people living in isolated areas and that on occasion postmen have a cup of tea and discuss the local news with them. If local post offices are closed down, this aspect of rural life will be destroyed.
Deputies will shortly have an opportunity to say whether they support the closure of rural and local post offices. It is not good enough to say that the service is improving, welcome as that is. As Deputy McManus said, in my constituency of Little Bray, old age pensioners have to queue in the rain for hours on end outside the post office. This is not good enough in this day and age, and all in the interests of the auditor. I intend putting to a vote the motion which calls on the Government to maintain, protect and refurbish rural and local post offices.
Deputy N. Treacy rose.
Sorry Minister, Deputy Fox's contribution concluded the debate.
There are five minutes remaining.
Perhaps with the agreement of the House the Minister could be given the remaining five minutes.
The debate is concluded, and I must put the amendment.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 35.
Tá
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Bree, Declan.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, James.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eíthne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Power, Seán.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, John.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
Níl
- Barrett, Seán.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Byrne, Eric.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connor, John.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Fox, Johnny.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies McManus and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.