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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Jan 1995

Vol. 447 No. 11

Private Members' Business. - Higher Education Grants: Motion.

I move:

"That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to take steps to ensure that the level of maintenance grants and the means test thresholds in relation to higher education grants is increased substantially in the forthcoming budget in the interests of equity and social justice and that, in this regard, the Government forthwith publish the de Buitléir report on the system of State grants for third level courses to enable a fully informed public debate to take place on the issue."

I wish to share my time with Deputy Coughlan.

I am sure that is agreed. Agreed.

I note from the Minister's amendment that she, apparently, welcomes the Government's decision to publish the advisory committee's report on third level student support. I am disturbed that she decided to circulate this report to the media prior to circulating it to Members of the House. It shows a fundamental disregard for the Members of the House, in particular the three Members who put down the motion. It is shabby behaviour, sharp practice and a grave discourtesy to the House.

I propose the motion in the hope that this debate can mark the beginning of more open, comprehensive and informed debate on the question of third level fees and grants. In the interests of social justice and equity, Fianna Fáil has always been committed to widening access for all students to third level education. We acknowledge that putting this principle into action will require a substantial reform package. There are still too many barriers in the way of participation. Financial considerations still prevent many of our people attending third level education. We believe that no student should be deprived of access to third level education because of his or her financial circumstances.

In putting down the motion we are motivated by a desire to bring far greater equity into the third level grants system in the context of the forthcoming budget. The Government should increase substantially the level of the maintenance grant and the means test thresholds so that students currently attending third level institutions benefit immediately. For a number of years we have had a sporadic debate on the issue of eliminating third level fees. Such a debate, however, has not been accompanied by any meaningful improvement in the present position, particularly for students currently attending third level. Our motion aims to bring about such an immediate improvement.

The present third level grants system is inequitable and discriminates in an appalling manner against the PAYE sector. Many Deputies have been inundated with calls and complaints from PAYE workers who have received no financial support because of the harsh and arbitrary nature of the present schemes. The income limits in this scheme are simply too low. Larger families, in particular, suffer. In addition, the scheme is too rigid and people marginally over the income limits suffer unduly as a result. No marginal relief provision exists and study after study confirms that other sectors of the economy benefit far more proportionately than the PAYE sector. This needs to be redressed urgently and our motion aims to do that.

For families who do not live close to a university the real cost involves the maintenance of the student. The present level of the maintenance grant bears no relation to the cost of maintaining a student away from home at college. The USI estimated the average cost of putting a student through college in 1993-94 at £5,500. Those calculations are modest and very realistic. In addition, it is worth nothing that while average fees between 1983 and 1993 increased by 172 per cent, the maintenance grant for the same period decreased in real terms by 20 per cent. Consequently, many students have to work part-time to finance themselves and this has a negative impact on their studies. The average maintenance grant is approximately £1,486 which, divided by the average 36 week academic year, works out at roughly £40 per week which might not even pay the rent for a student living in rented accommodation.

In the words of Barry Kehoe, director of student services in Dublin City University, the Government should establish the cost for a student going to college, note from where it will come and how the gap will be made up. Having spoken to many of my colleagues in the House, particularly those from rural constituencies, it is clear that the level of maintenance grant is a critical issue and needs to be substantially increased.

In proposing the motion I am conscious that the Minister will make other significant demands on the resources at her disposal. I also put forward this motion in the context of the ongoing debate about the Minister's announcement last July that she intends to abolish third level fees over a specific time-frame. At that time I welcomed the announcement. Coming from an urban constituency I was particularly concerned at the level of discrimination within the existing scheme against the PAYE sector given the low income limits and felt that by abolishing fees one would eliminate the inequity once and for all. However, one cannot consider the fees issue in isolation. We must take on board other demands on scarce resources within the education system and we must question whether we have the necessary resources to achieve the ideal of abolishing third level fees. I said last week that I wanted action sooner rather than later. Our motion will improve immediately and significantly the lot of students currently attending third level. Judging from the hints so far the Minister's proposals may take a number of years to be fully implemented, with students currently going through the system not benefiting.

It is important that we have a more open and informed debate on this matter. In essence, all cards must be put on the table. In tandem with the Minister's announcement we had selective leaks about the de Buitléir report on the system of State grants for third level courses. Such selective and obviously authorised leaks of an allegedly confidential report must be deplored. They show a complete disregard for this House and indeed its Members who should have access to such reports as soon as they are completed. Indeed, such leaking of information seems to be part and parcel of the Minister's modus operandi. I call on the Minister to give a clear commitment to this House that in future all such reports are published upon completion, to facilitate open and informed debate and that Members receive a copy of them in advance of the media, unlike what happened this evening.

In relation to the abolition of third level fees, it is time for the Minister to put the full facts before the people, to outline her proposals clearly and succinctly, and to clarify many questions which have remained unanswered. Will maintenance grants be advanced to PLC students? How much will the abolition of educational tax covenants raise, and over what time scale? Existing covenants must obviously be allowed to run their full course and any changes can apply only to new covenants. We have had various estimates in relation to the costing involved, some suggesting that the net cost could vary between £40 million and £50 million. The proposal is to be primarily financed by the abolition of the covenants. It is still unclear how much would actually be raised by the abolition of covenants. Furthermore, as the economist Seán Barrett has pointed out, it does not follow that the abolition of covenants will yield immediate returns to the Exchequer. Those deprived of tax convenanting for children could, and will in all probability, avail of other tax havens and shelters within the system. We clearly need more information and deeper analysis. It is my understanding that the Revenue Commissioners are not able to say exactly how many covenants are strictly for educational purposes. Obviously a significant proportion are, but we need to know the exact figures to assess the situation properly.

The abolition of third level fees cannot be treated in isolation, but must be considered in the context of other demands for resources throughout the educational system. Dr. Tom Mitchell, Provost of Trinity College and Chairman of the Conference of Irish University Heads, has argued cogently for extra funds to provide for the increasing demand for university places. As he pointed out, dramatic progress has been made during the past 12 years. Numbers attending university increased dramatically from about 27,000 in 1982 to 58,000 in 1994. The numbers applying continue to rise. In 1994 over 60,000 applied through the CAO, almost 38,000 of those sought entry to university. At present the universities can admit only 12,000.

While recognising that many were subsequently accommodated in other third level institutions it must be acknowledged that demand for extra university places will continue to rise and must be provided for. In an article in The Irish Times Education and Living Supplement, on 13 September the Minister was dismissive of the case made by the universities. As Dr. Mitchell pointed out, the Department of Education's own projections indicate that an additional 48,000 students will have to be accommodated in the third level system by the year 2005 and a high proportion of these will be seeking entry to university and capable of achieving a university degree. Participation rates in all forms of third level education will continue to rise well into the next century.

Decline in numbers leaving secondary school will be more than compensated for by increases in the numbers of mature students and in the ongoing need and demand for continuing education. Dr. Mitchell argues that the university sector cannot possibly cope with these numbers without large scale capital investment. He estimates that during the high period of expansion in the 1980s, capital grants per additional student declined in real terms from £11,000 in 1982 to £1,950 in 1993. Such expansion created 15,000 square metres of temporary accommodation which must be replaced. Future expansion in places will inevitably lead to further capital expenditure and submissions to the Department involving £120 million on third level capital projects over the next six years have already been made.

The regional technical colleges will also require significant capital funding over the next decade. They already suffer gross overcrowding and lack of necessary facilities and equipment. Given the fact that the numbers participating at third level over the next decade will increase dramatically, surely the provision of extra and better resourced career guidance counsellors at second level is an imperative. Career guidance will be a very important instrument in ensuring that students make the right choices and attend courses that suit their aptitude and orientation.

In the debate so far, little serious consideration has been given to the case of the thousands of post leaving certificate students throughout the country. A revolution has taken place over recent years in the creation of a new tier of education. Credit must be given to the vocational education committees whose inherent flexibility allowed the development of the PLC colleges and courses with innovation, local curriculum and market orientation being their hallmark. Such a development was recognised by the expert working party on the VPT2 programme when its report to the NCVA in June 1992 stated that "an unofficial further education sector has in effect developed". It is absurd that the Department still effectively considers such colleges to be post primary schools.

As pointed out by Liam McAllister of Dún Laoghaire vocational education committee, students attending PLC colleges do not receive maintenance grants while students attending other institutions leading to similar qualification, receive these grants. Such discrimination will have to be eliminated. Post leaving certificate students should be provided with maintenance grants, and a start should be made in the forthcoming budget in this regard.

It has been argued that the abolition of third level fees will change the profile of those attending college and accelerate the participation of the less well off in third level education. We must be brutally honest with ourselves in this regard. The abolition of fees will have only a modest impact in the short term on increasing participation from low income families in third level. The participation of lower income families in third level education is far too low and special, targeted measures must be introduced to deal with this issue. Families in the lowest income groups do not benefit from the current third level grants system.

Fundamentally, we can only increase the numbers entering third level from the lower income groups and disadvantaged if we invest far more than we have up to now in the pre-school and primary sectors. Pre-schooling is perhaps the most effective way of ensuring the proper educational and personal development of children from disadvantaged backgrounds and ultimately enabling them to enter third level education and achieve academic success.

Despite the very comprehensive recommendations from the report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women regarding pre-schooling and child care in general, the response of the Minister and the Department has been very slow and ineffective. In the same interview with The Irish Times the Minister, while acknowledging that the pilot pre-school scheme “has been slow in getting off the ground”, put forward the excuse that “we need more research, parent and community involvement and training for teachers” and that we should “make haste slowly”. The Minister conveniently ignores the fact that we already have plenty of recognised, qualified Montessori pre-school teachers in this country who have been effectively debarred from participating in the `Early Start Programme', whose expertise she refuses to draw upon and whose association, the AMI, she refuses even to meet. Effectively what we are getting here is a token response to the needs of a sector which, if properly resourced, could have a far reaching impact on educational and social inequality. Investment in primary education is also essential to deal with disadvantage at an early age. The home-school liaison programme requires further expansion. We need more remedial teachers and extra teachers in disadvantaged areas. Above all, a continued reduction in the PTR is desirable and seems to have been put on the back burner by the Minister.

If we really want to increase the level of participation at third level from those in the lower income groups and the disadvantaged we have to do so through the pre-school and primary sectors. This cannot be done by any quick fix method of simply abolishing third level fees straight away and hoping for a miracle response.

The Minister is also aware of an ongoing campaign to extend the existing third level grant system to Irish students studying in Britain or other EU countries. In 1991-92 5,554 Irish undergraduates and postgraduates were studying overseas. These students receive no funding from this State in the pursuit of their studies. In the Dail last year the Minister rejected demands for the extension of the scheme for these students on the grounds that it would prove very expensive arguing that she did not have the resources.

Postgraduates in our third level colleges are very angry at the reduction in their resources and the complete under-provision for their research. Such a potentially valuable sector to the economy has been virtually ignored in the debate so far. The report on the National Convention, and particularly the section dealing with resourcing the changes we can expect in the aftermath of the White Paper and in anticipation of some of the recommendations of the Green Paper, emphasise the need to target resources to the disadvantaged and to special areas. That section of the report does not appear to have been taken on board in the context of the debate on third level fees.

I have focused specifically on the following areas: the need for extra places and facilities to be provided at third level; the need to fund PLC students; the urgent need to invest significantly in pre-school and primary education; the need for adequately resourced career guidance counselling at second level; the plight of our students studying abroad and the lack of funding for postgraduate research to illustrate the need for a comprehensive and integrated package of reforms to be brought forward, rather than simply concentrating on the abolition of third level fees alone. By highlighting these issues I am underlying the need for a more profound and inclusive debate on this subject than we have had up to now. Proper analysis of the costings must be initiated, consultation with the various interests involved must take place, and we in Fianna Fáil are prepared to play a constructive and a helpful role in that debate and in that process.

To assist and inform that debate, it was our view that it was necessary that the de Buitléir report on the Irish system of third level State grants be published. I welcome the fact that the Minister has taken that decision as a result of this motion.

The new Government.

I regret that, unfortunately, the Minister did not make it available to Members prior to circulating it to the media. That is very shabby behaviour.

My understanding is that the report's analysis of the inequities of the present grant system is sound and highlights the degree to which there is discrimination against the PAYE sector. According to various leaks and statements it proposes the creation of one unified student support scheme to replace the existing three. As announced already, it proposes the transfer of the administration of the means test from local authorities and vocational education committees to the Revenue Commissioners. Perhaps the most controversial proposal leaked involves the introduction of a capital test in addition to the existing income test to qualify for a third level grant. Many newspaper headlines last July signalled an "Education grant clamp on farmers and the self-employed."

Such proposals need to be discussed in the public arena. The interests involved have a right to make submissions and to have an input into these proposals. I am sure they would be anxious to examine this report and to respond to it. This would be the democratic approach to take. I have no desire to engage in a witch hunt for those who currently qualify for grants; rather I am specifically interested in broadening the scope of the existing schemes to embrace students and families from the PAYE sector who up to now have been excluded.

It is worth noting also that the selective leaking of this report coincided with the Minister's announcement in July to abolish third level fees. However it is my understanding that the report makes no reference to or recommendations on the abolition of third level fees. Its entire thrust is aimed at streamlining the existing system, simplifying its administration and ensuring greater equity in the operation of the grants system for third level courses. Those who can afford to pay shall receive a smaller grant and those not in a position to pay should receive a higher level of grant.

Quite clearly therefore, before any fundamental decisions are made this report should be considered in its entirety and should form the basis for an open, accountable and inclusive debate embracing all the interests involved. In the first instance the report should be considered and debated in this House. The expertise and experience of Members from all parties should be brought into play and their comments arising from constituents' views upon publication of the report should be taken on board.

At the time of its formation this Government spoke much about the need to involve this House and about having respect for the dignity of the House, but the manner in which this report has been circulated to the media in advance does not augur well for the intentions and aspirations of the Government, and this is a matter we intend to take up with the Taoiseach. This report is of such fundamental importance that in the first instance it should be debated by this House.

Having spoken to many people involved in education and reflected on the position, it is my view that the total abolition of third level fees cannot take place in the immediate short term without resulting in serious lack of provision for the other sectors of education outlined in my speech, particularly the pre-school and primary sectors where properly resourced early intervention can be most effective in eliminating disadvantage and inequality. My motivation all along in regard to third level fees and grants issue has been to end the discrimination against the PAYE sector. Our motion would make an immediate difference to many students from families on PAYE attending third level education. In addition, if adopted by the Government, it would mean a substantial increase in the level of maintenance grant, bringing it up to a more realistic rate. Our motion is socially progressive and represents an equitable use of existing resources, and I commend it to the House.

Is cúis áthais dom a bheith páirteach sa díospóireacht seo faoi chúrsaí oideachais sa tríú leibhéal, rud atá an-tábhachtach ní amháin domsa ach do gach aon duine sa Teach seo.

Education is an important and very emotive issue as is demonstrated by the media attenton it has been getting in recent weeks. I agree to a large extent with much of what academia have had to say on the issue of fees and maintenance grants. The loss to third level colleges of in excess of £50 million in revenue must cause some degree of consternation in campuses around the country. In last Sunday's Sunday Tribune the provost of Trinity College, which is regarded as an establishment of some standing stated: “abolishing fees will not create one additional place, abolishing fees will not help one person from low income backgrounds to get to University because they are already exempt from fees”. Comments such as this must be regarded as helpful and constructive criticism. I sincerely hope the Minister will take on board these concerns.

It is much more important in the context of this debate that the sum of £50 million for fees which the Minister proposes to abolish would be better spent supplementing a capital investment programme in all third level institutions in order to create additional places. I recently visited UCD where a new library was provided, but unfortunately if students are not there by 9 a.m. there is no place to study. It is imperative that we deal with overcrowding and the absolute necessity for additional places.

In this House we indulge in pious platitudes, in encouraging young people to attend third level institutions, but there are not enough places and as a consequence there is a rat race to attain higher points every year. The social and psychological effect of this pressure on young people is frightening. It is true that only a small percentage of lower socio-economic groups attend third level but the reason is not that they have to pay college fees because they are exempt from such fees. The money would be better spent addressing problems from pre-school stage onwards as many students do not even complete second level education and other leave after primary education. The immediate problem is to cater for the children of the PAYE worker. It is the parents of these children who come to me in my constituency office in Donegal — I am sure the same applies throughout the country. These parents motivate their children to work towards a third level qualification but despite the sacrifices they are prepared to make for their children, they find themselves under severe financial strain.

Issues such as the means test threshold and the improvement in maintenance grants are contentious and require input from all concerned. As regards maintenance grants in particular, the supercilious notion that by definition a maintenance grant of £1,486 per year would, in 1995, maintain a student living away from home is ridiculous if not insulting. A student, even in a rural setting, will allocate about £20 per week for rent, £20 for food, fuel and electricity and at least £10 for travel. This leaves nothing for books, equipment and personal maintenance, In general most, if not all students rely on the goodwill of parents, brothers and sisters to supplement their grants in order to survive.

It is not very long since I left university and I know many people who had to take on second jobs and part time jobs, if they were lucky to get them, because they found themselves under severe financial stress and strain. Many students rely on people at home for financial support, but sadly families do not always have the additional income necessary. An increase in the basic maintenance grant would go some way towards alleviating the hardship endured by parents and families who send their children to college.

Another major grievance often voiced in this House is that those currently in receipt of grant aid must constantly endure long delays. It is often Christmas before the first instalment of the grant is paid and, in the meantime, students have to rely on their families or take out a very expensive bridging loan to tide them over.

The reflex action by the Minister to improve the services for students was to establish a central agency to process applications and payments. This is a very fine and laudable idea for those students who live beside the agency but what happens to someone living in Glencolumbkille, for example, one of the remotest parts of the country, who needs help with their application? The proposals to streamline the service look very efficient on paper but they are highly impractical. The establishment of one locally based agency would be preferable as it would allow for easy access and ensure sensitivity in any dealings with the students and parents in each county or region.

Many students who cannot obtain a place on a suitable course in the Republic travel to Northern Ireland and Great Britain. At present approximately 8,000 student cannot be accommodated here. Grant aid is available for some of the students who travel to Northern Ireland but all the students who travel to the United Kingdom are denied grant assistance. This is totally unfair. We should be prepared to maintain those students who travel to the United Kingdom until such time as we can accommodate all our students.

Fianna Fáil's position on this issue is very clear and my colleague, Deputy Martin, has done much to assist the Minister in this regard. I hope the Minister will consider his advice. As even her Labour colleagues will appreciate, the Minister is in a very difficult position. On the one hand there are those who would advise her to adopt a very cautious approach in giving away £50 million while, on the other hand, there are those who cannot wait to get rid of this money. In order to achieve the best for all concerned — in essence, that means our youth — there must be a fully informed public debate on this issue as soon as possible. Such a debate is essential if decisions affecting so many are to be taken.

At present approximately 90,000 students attend third level colleges or institutions of one kind or another and 45,000 of these rely on grants to get through college. Playing politics with parents and children, which I believe the Labour Party is doing by proposing the abolition of fees alone, begs the question: does the right hand of this Coalition Government know exactly what the left hand is doing? Education is much too serious an issue to be pulling it in three directions. If the Minister is serious, as we in Fianna Fáil are, about the provision of wider and fairer access to third level education, the need for essential reform and the allocation of greater resources to achieve this, an open and frank debate on third level education is imperative. It is a pity that it has taken this motion to have the de Buitléir report made available——

A new Government.

I am not sure whether it has been placed in the Library.

It is not. I have asked for it and they know nothing about it. They are upset that it is available——

Please, Deputy Cullen.

It is an insult that a copy was not placed in the Library before it was given to the media.

Deputy Coughlan without interruption, please.

It is bad manners not to make a copy of the report available to all Deputies. It has been in the Department for more than a year.

Who kept it there?

I did not see anybody handcuffing the Minister to the door of the Department.

The Minister was the boss.

She was the boss.

It was selectively leaked.

I object to that; my Department did not leak a word——

It was leaked.

It was not; not one word was leaked from my Department.

We should stop playing politics. This is a very important week in the lives of leaving certificate students. The last day for the receipt of application forms in the CAO and CAS is 1 February. People are asking us if they have to pay fees and whether they will get maintenance grants — they need to know now. It is almost too late at this stage for those who are attending third level institutions. This is not fair or equitable and it is downright mischievous of the Government to try to plámás students who wish to attend college by not telling them where they stand at this very traumatic and important time in their lives.

The Minister must consider all the options so that she does not make a decision which is any way regressive for our education system. We have an excellent education system, but it can be improved. If we are serious about ensuring that everyone is given an opportunity to attend third level education there must be an immediate debate on this issue. This should not be a political debate; rather it should deal with all aspects of education. This is a serious issue and young people should not be held to ransom for political gain.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Derek McDowell.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I wish to congratulate Deputy Martin on his appointment as Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Education. Despite my role to propose and his to oppose, I hope our common desire to improve our education system will lead to a spirit of co-operation on the facts.

Thank you.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"endorses the Government's commitment to support mechanisms to increase participation by third level students from low income backgrounds, including the abolition of third level fees, to comprehensive reform of the higher education grants scheme, the introduction of support for students on post-leaving certificate courses, an increase in the number of third level places, and welcomes the decision by the Government to publish the Report of the Advisory Committee on Third Level Student Support."

The effect of increased participation on a national level is shown in surveys commissioned from time to time by the Higher Education Authority. A survey in 1980 revealed that 20 per cent of the 17-19 age cohort in the country went on to third level education. This had increased to 25 per cent by 1986 and the figure for 1992 is estimated to be approximately 40 per cent.

The numbers of students who go on to third level education are directly related to the numbers of students who complete their second level education and sit the leaving certificate examination. At present, approximately 52 per cent of students who sit the leaving certificate progress to third level which is a reasonable transfer rate by international standards.

Direct Exchequer support for students has also grown in importance. During the 1981-82 academic year 14,000 students received grant aid equivalent to 32 per cent of the total enrolment of 44,000. By 1993-94, this had grown to 60 per cent.

In 1993, the total support for fees and maintenance by the Exchequer was in the order of £85 million. Total public expenditure on education in 1993 amounted to £1.8 billion representing approximately 19 per cent of Government expenditure compared with 1965 when the corresponding proportion was 13.2 per cent.

There are three student grant schemes — the higher education grants scheme, the vocational education committee scholarship scheme and the European Social Fund training grant scheme. Under these schemes nearly 53,000 students received grant aid in the 1993-94 academic year.

Since I became Minister for Education I have continued and intensified the process of increasing participation in third level. In 1993 I continued the process of improving and reforming the third level student support system: income limits were increased by 3.4 per cent in line with the average increase in industrial wages; the maximum tuition fee grant limit for courses covered under the higher education grants scheme and vocational education committee scholarships scheme was increased by 10 per cent to £2,200 for the 1993-94 academic year. This ensured that the fees for a number of courses which were not fully covered in 1992 were, in fact, fully covered under the 1993 schemes; the awarding bodies were given discretion, for the first time, in 1993 to renew grants and scholarships for repeat years, in exceptional circumstances, in cases of certified serious illness. This was in direct response to a need which I identified as causing serious distress and financial difficulties for some students; in previous years schemes students who had obtained a national certificate or national diploma were required to have obtained one year or two year exemptions respectively when progressing on to a degree course in a university or other third level institution before grant aid would be payable. Unfortunately many such students did not receive the necessary exemptions and were required to fund one or two years of the degree course from their own resources. The 1993 schemes were modified and improved so that students progressing from ESF aided courses were no longer required to have obtained exemptions and were deemed eligible for grant assistance from whatever year they commenced their degree course provided they were otherwise eligible in accordance with the terms of the scheme.

In the general administration of the schemes I have taken the following initiatives: a thorough review of all the relevant scheme documentation has been carried out; the schemes were redrafted and simplified and the application forms and explanatory notes were redesigned and standardised. Complaints in relation to the difficult nature of the text of previous years' schemes awere taken on board; and the 1993 application form was redesigned — a single, fully completed application form from a candidate was used for all three schemes.

As I previously stated in this House, the need for simpler and more efficient organisational arrangements for the delivery of student support has been a constant theme in representations, and I am well aware of the difficulties and the frustration being experienced by students and parents.

In 1994, I implemented further improvements in the student support schemes on the basis of recommendations made in the report of the advisory committee which I had established. These improvements included the following: up to 1994, students were required to have obtained a minimum of two grade Cs in the higher level papers in the leaving certificate in order to satisfy the academic requirements of the scheme. With effect from 1994, the academic requirements of the scheme were deemed to be met by students who secured a college place; I introduced new rules for second chance cases. This is to ensure that students who did not complete studies at a particular level will be eligible to apply for grants to study again at the same level after an interval of five years; I provided a discretionary budget in 1994 to set up a hardship fund with the third level institutions and I ensured the earlier issue of the student support schemes to the local authorities/VECs at the end of April 1994. In 1993, the schemes issued in mid-August.

I also propose to implement the following further improvements: the processing of grant applications and payments by a central office associated with the CAO; transfer of the means test function to the Revenue Commissioners and transfer of the appeals function from the Minister for Education to the Appeal Commissioners appointed under tax law. These measures will improve the service to students.

I would now like to turn to the issue of access. I am firmly committed to free access to education at first, second and third level. I am actively working on detailed proposals to improve access to third level at present. I hope in this way to help many people on modest incomes who are outside the income eligibility limits for higher education grants and who are experiencing growing financial hardship in providing a third level education for their children.

We have to see the abolition of third level fees as part of the overall funding of higher education. At present the Government pays almost £300 million to third level colleges through a block grant. In addition, more than half of all students already obtain fee grants. Thus, the Government provides three-quarters of all university funding and more than 90 per cent of funding of regional colleges. Most courses in the regional colleges are funded by the European Social Fund and no fees are charged on those courses.

Most of the costs of ensuring access to third level education are borne by the Exchequer. However the present system is confusing and complex and arguably leads to serious distortions, inefficiencies and inequities.

The Exchequer subvention to the current costs of third level education can be broken down between the block grants to the universities, to the Dublin Institute of Technology, the regional technical colleges and the other third level colleges — £291 million in 1994 — grants for undergraduate and postgraduate fees — £51 million in 1994 — and income tax covenant relief — £25 million in revenue foregone for the education sector in the 1994-95 tax year.

When we look at the total picture which I have just spelt out, we can see that abolishing undergraduate tuition fees would not incur a significant new cost for the Exchequer. The Exchequer is already meeting the brunt of the costs of participation at third level but in an inefficient, inequitable and regressive way.

Although more than half of all students get fee grants, there is a real problem of lack of public confidence in the higher education grant schemes. This stems from a perception that certain groups, particularly PAYE taxpayers, fare worse in the means testing than the non-PAYE sector. Every Deputy can cite specific examples of where there seem to be serious inequities in the schemes.

The weakness of the grant schemes may explain why students from disadvantaged backgrounds have been shown to be more likely to take European funded courses than courses where fees are payable — even though they would be eligible to receive fee grants. The commitment in the Government of Renewal Policy Agreement to free third level education means that we are pledged to introduce a fairer system of third level funding for all students.

Reinforcing my commitment to the abolition of fees at undergraduate level are data emerging from work carried out for the Steering Committee on the Future Development of the Higher Education Sector which indicates that in the period 1986-92 participation rates for lower professional and salaried employees declined despite the fact that overall participation rates were increasing. This group includes teachers, nurses, social workers and clerical/executive civil servants. This research also indicates that 77 per cent of all new entrants to third level in 1992 from a farming background received means tested student support. Furthermore, the research also shows that 42 per cent of entrants from families with over 200 acres and 65 per cent from families with between 100-199 acres received such support. This compares with a corresponding percentage of 70 per cent - 80 per cent for the manual worker socio-economic group, 43 per cent for salaried employees and 30 per cent for lower professionals.

There will be approximately 17,500 places provided on post-leaving certificate — PLC — courses in 1994-95. The courses provided range from hairdressing, engineering, secretarial, business studies to pre-nursing etc.

Registration and examination fees — which vary according to the course and vocational education committee — are payable by participants. Total abolition of these fees would cost approximately £2 million annually to the Exchequer. With the abolition of third level undergraduate fees retention of PLC fees would create an anomaly in the Irish education system. There would be no fees at primary, second and third level yet fees would be payable for PLC courses. It would also further disadvantage those participants from the lower socio-economic groups. Finally, the abolition of fees for PLC courses is essential to relieve the pressure on places in the universities and other third level institutions.

A good deal of concern has been expressed in this debate, both inside and outside the House, about the level of maintenance grants. It has also been suggested that instead of abolishing tuition fees the interests of students, particularly the students from disadvantaged backgrounds, would be much better served by increasing the value of maintenance grants and raising income eligibility thresholds. These suggestions seem very reasonable and, indeed, I have looked at them carefully in the course of formulating my policy on tuition fees. Unfortunately, however, this strategy would not solve the fundamental problem in the system which is the inequity of the present grants system and the fact that as a result many students cannot afford to go to university.

I can explain why. If we were to spend £25 million extra on the grants schemes this would enable me to raise the income eligibility thresholds for minimum grant assistance to £25,200 from the present level of £20,700. This would certainly help an additional number of students but it would leave me having to address other problems. Where would I get the additional money? The data on participation rates illustrate one of the problems. As I have already indicated recent research data produced for the higher education needs study have shown that the participation rate of students from the middle income group is declining.

I share much of the concern about the level of the maintenance grants. I agree that there is a very strong case for improving the support mechanisms so as to increase participation by third level students from low income backgrounds, including the abolition of third level fees, comprehensive reform of the higher education grants scheme and the introduction of support for students on post-leaving certificate courses.

Access to third level education for pupils in disadvantaged areas is encouraged through the establishment of links between post-primary schools in disadvantaged areas and third level institutions. Such links which have been established to date involve Dublin City University, University of Limerick, Trinity College and Tallaght regional technical college with second level schools in disadvantaged areas. The linkages incorporate supervised study facilities, extra tuition for pupils, information and advice for pupils and parents, including seminars, mentoring, support teaching in key subject areas, such as mathematics and science, parenting courses and visits to industries and businesses.

A discretionary budget of £200,000 was introduced in 1994 out of which £120,000 was distributed to the third level institutions to assist students who were experiencing short term financial difficulties. It was envisaged that these moneys would complement the existing third level student support. The remaining £80,000 was set aside to assist physically challenged students.

Ensuring greater participation by disadvantaged socio-economic groups in third level education is not primarily related to financial considerations. An essential prerequisite to fuller participation in third level is ensuring retention of students in full-time education up to the age of 18. To achieve this I have taken a range of initiatives. These include targeting of resources on disadvantaged areas; the provision of educational support services for students, e.g. psychological and guidance services, career guidance, remedial teachers, etc; the continuing development of the home-school liaison service; a major restructuring of the senior cycle curricula to adapt them to the needs of the wider spread of ability levels and backgrounds proceeding to senior cycle; and the introduction of alternative pathways for students to progress to post-second level education and training.

The importance for students of completion of second level education is emphasised in a finding of the recent ESRI report that the risk of poverty is about five times as high for someone with no qualifications as it is for someone with the leaving certificate.

I have already referred to the increase in student numbers which took place since the early 1980s. However, even over the past four years there has been a dramatic increase from 68,000 in 1990-91 to 88,000 in 1993-94. Over such a short period, therefore, an extra 20,000 students succeeded in securing places in third level institutions. This was due mainly to a series of initiatives and strategies undertaken by my Department involving amalgamations of institutions, linkages between institutions and the undergraduate student expansion programme.

This programme was the result of an agreement between my Department and the universities to the effect that the universities would take in a minimum of 1,200 extra students per annum over and above normal growth for a three to four year period. It was also agreed that the Department would pay £1,000 per annum for each student under the programme and that the universities would retain the fee income. Numbers have grown to such an extent that for the 1993-94 academic year there were approximately 7,500 students in the universities under the programme.

To assist the Minister in her aspiration to share some time with her colleague, I would remind her that there are six minutes remaining of her time slot.

We have seen that students from disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely to take courses where no fees are payable, even though they are eligible for fee grants. We have seen that participation rates for lower professional and salaried employees have declined in recent years. We have seen that the present system of funding of third level education is perceived as inefficient, inequitable and regressive. The Government of Renewal commitments will address these problems. Some students simply do no aspire to third level or further education.

The pledge to abolish third level fees has enormous psychological significance for these students. It shows that fees will no longer be a barrier to entry to higher education. Just as free second level education opened the doors to many students, the abolition of third level and PLC fees will encourage these students to raise their aspirations.

I am convinced that the Government of Renewal commitment will transform the landscape of higher education and enhance the life chances of all our young people.

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an méid a dúirt an tAire mar gheall ar cheapachán an Teachta Martin mar urlabhraí ar son Fianna Fáil i gcursaí Oideachais. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an deis agat chun obair chruthaitheach a dhéanamh sa phost seo sna blianta atá ós ár gcomhair amach.

I am taking it all back.

I listened very carefully to what Deputies Martin and Coughlan had to say to see whether I could perceive a scamper to the right or a dart to the left and the best I can come up with is a sincere effort to mark time. While I agree with a great deal of what Deputy Martin says about students overseas, pre-school education, the need to target disadvantaged areas and so on. I sense there is a reluctance to tackle the serious political choices that have to be made in the current circumstances, a reluctance, for example, to deal with the issue of covenants and the inequities that currently exist in the grants system. Calling for further debate may do for the moment but sooner or later we have to make serious political choices and unfortunately in the education system as elsewhere, but particularly in the education system, we have seen far too many examples of debate being used as a way of obscuring, postponing or, for that matter, preventing decisions being taken.

The ESRI report to which the Minister has referred confirmed what I think we already know, that education and the achievement of social justice are intrinsically linked. Regardless of our society's ability to create jobs over the next decade or so — thankfully current indicators are fairly good — the ability of individual citizens to compete for them will depend on their educational qualifications. For that reason, and indeed for many others, I support the Minister's amendment. In it she recognises the critical role to be played by third level education, in the same way the previous Government recognised the significance and relevance of training as social investment, something for which we had to argue when the National Development Plan was drawn up.

I welcome the Minister's commitment to examine in a comprehensive way the support system for third level education. The reasons for the participation or non-participation of certain social groups in third level education are complex and extend, as all Deputies have said, beyond the simple question of money. While we hope and indeed must insist on improvements in the level of maintenance payments to students from less well off backgrounds, as indicated in the Fianna Fáil motion, I think it would be foolish to suggest that this represents anything but the tip of the iceberg in relation to the problem as a whole. As an urban Deputy I am particularly aware of the cynicism with which many people view the grant system. The widespread perception among the PAYE sector is that certain social groups, particularly farmers and the self-employed, have been able to avail of the grants system at their expense. The Minister has pointed out that this has led to a relative decline in the participation rate at third level among, in particular, the lower middle classes. The elimination of fees in conjunction with an overall reform package — it must be stressed that it will be in conjunction with other measures — will go a long way to level the playing field.

I do not accept the contention of, among others, Deputy Barrett that this proposal essentially transfers resources from the less well off to the better off. The establishment of the principle that every young adult is entitled to free education is no longer just a pious aspiration, as it may have been when I was involved in student politics in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Economic growth is now such as justifies and, in fact, demands that we invest in education at all levels, in effect, that we invest in our children and their future. Whether a child has a middle, lower middle or working class background their educational achievements will be central to their life prospects. We have to be aware too of families where more than one child wishes to go on to third level education. I know nobody in this House who would wish to cut off the opportunity for the second or third child in lower middle or middle income families attending college simply because their older brother and sister had done so.

The present system is far from ideal. Many children from less well off backgrounds are hugely underrepresented in third level education. This perpetuates inequality and social injustice. It means, in effect, that many children of ability do not achieve their full potential. I do not want to overplay this point but I think it is central that the psychological impact on such children of the very fact that fees have to be paid is crucially important. There are many children who simply do not think of going on to third level education. While it is by no means the only reason, the fact that money has to be handed over is unquestionably part of their thinking. The elimination of fees will obviously have to be accompanied by other measures, including an increase in the maintenance threshold, but I believe it should also be accompanied by a reform of the covenant system.

We are all aware that the covenant system, well intentioned as it may have been, is hugely abused. There is plenty of hard as well as anecdotal evidence that much of the money does not go where it is intended but because of the relationship of the individuals involved it is next to impossible for the Revenue Commissioners to establish this. The covenant system is a tax shelter within the tax system which cannot be justified and I believe it warrants urgent reform.

I am conscious of the time available but I will make one further point. The Minister has laid great emphasis in her first two years in office on the principle of tackling disadvantage. We all accept that disadvantage at third level cannot be tackled in isolation and that disadvantage at first and second levels must be tackled at the same time. The Minister has rightly pointed out in her contribution that she has taken many measures in that regard during the past two years and I hope she will continue to do so.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Batt O'Keeffe and Kirk.

Is that agreed. Agreed.

I support this motion which basically is about the use of the scarce resources which are available. If the Minister is in a position to abolish fees, that means there is money available to her to develop third level education. What has to be done is to decide on how best to spend the available money. In the long term I do not think anybody on this side of the House has a problem with the abolition of fees but is it the right thing to do now? Is it the intention to help the children of lower paid workers gain access to third level education? If it is, it will not work; it is more likely to help those who are in a position to help themselves than those in the lower socio-economic classes. The only way we can help people in the lower classes is by improving the maintenance grants. The maximum grant is approximately £1,500 and if some significant progress could be made to increase it, and if there was a knock-on effect down the line that would be far more beneficial.

We have to use our resources to help the long term unemployed, some of whom are discriminated against, and I can give an example. I put down a Parliamentary Question on 26 January 1994 asking the Minister for Education:

the plans, if any, she has to do away with the discrimination which currently exists for unemployed people who do not live in close proximity to a university, which consequently forces them to follow a part-time degree course, thereby precluding them from a higher education grant scheme.

Her reply was:

There is no discrimination against unemployed persons in the provisions of the higher education grants scheme. Each person, regardless of employment status, who satisfies the income requirements and other conditions of the scheme is eligible to be awarded a student grant in respect of full-time attendance at a degree or other approved course.

Students pursuing part-time courses or evening lectures are not eligible for grant-aid under the higher education grants scheme. It is not considered possible to make an exception as regards this condition in respect of persons who are unemployed. I will be happy to have fully clarified any individual cases which the Deputy cares to bring to the attention of my Department.

I put down the question because I had brought a particular case to the attention of the Department, for all the good it did me. On the lottery it came out as Question No. 110 so I did not have an opportunity to quiz the Minister on it in the House. That scheme is for those who are on long term unemployment assistance and aged over 23 years; their social welfare is not affected as a result.

A long term unemployed person living in County Waterford was doing a degree course in Cork. Another person living in Cork was doing the same course in Cork. The latter could do the course during the day and avail of the grants from the Department of Education but the person from County Waterford could not stay in Cork overnight and do the course by day because he is unemployed. He could not afford to drive to and from Cork every day. He managed to do the course at night, getting lifts from people living in various parts of County Waterford. He did not receive one penny from the Department. How can anyone say he was not discriminated against? A person living in a university town or city has a great advantage. I do not know if that is included in the report which I was going to say has been suppressed but to our amazement, we heard at the last minute it is going to be published, although it is not yet in the Library.

Another real problem is the lack of university places. Perhaps the money should be used in that area. The number of points required is going through the roof and there is great pressure on students. Places should be allocated in areas outside universities. At page 28 of the document, A Government of Renewal, it states:

We are committed to a high quality education system .... to which each person has equal access ....

The south-east does not have equal access to education. I regret the Minister has left the Chamber. In the debate up to now three areas were mentioned, Waterford, Thurles and Castlebar. The document states on page 29:

In the lifetime of this Government we will develop an urban college on the existing campus in Dún Laoghaire. we will establish the Tipperary Rural Business Development Institute. We will consolidate and develop the educational programme in Castlebar.

I presume the Tipperary Rural Business Development Institute refers to Thurles but there is no mention of Waterford. Surprise, surprise, Dún Laoghaire is mentioned but then it is in the Minister's constituency.

There are five county boroughs in Ireland, four have universities but one, Waterford, does not. When Deputy Spring was in Waterford during the general election campaign in 1992 he promised that if he was back in Government he would redress that. I regret the Minister for Education is not present but I hope she will reply to that at some stage. A transcript of what the Tánaiste said is available if required.

In 1993 the regional technical college in Waterford took in 276 first time entrants and at the same time there was an outflow from the south-eastern region of 1,400 students doing degree courses in other parts of the country. About 1,000 of them could easily be accommodated within the region if the courses were put in place. The south-east is the second most populous region outside of Dublin. The Minister is not present to be reminded of what her colleague, Deputy Quinn, said. He said Shannon was a model which the rest of the country could develop — there is a university in Limerick. If that was the case in other areas we could go forward on the basis of the model in Shannon and help other areas to develop.

I regret that the Minister is not present. Her speech reminded me of To School Through The Fields or a romp through the grass. She seemed to have a late and welcome enlightenment in that she changed the terms of the motion, obviously forced to do so by the strong arguments put forward in many quarters. They clearly show that, in her original thinking, the Minister did not get it right and she has now seen the error of her ways.

The Minister outlines her aspirations but did not indicate how they would be achieved. She did not cost the proposals. Is she proposing something which, at the end of the day, she will not be able to achieve when she puts it before Cabinet, as happened in the past when she put an errant proposal before her colleagues and found it was not in the best interests of education and would not achieve what we all want?

One could call the Minister's speech a flight of fancy. It is big on aspiration but low on facts. I suggest that she go back to the Department and her Cabinet colleagues and come here and tell the House truthfully, honestly and openly what exactly she can achieve. To date in her ministry all we have heard are aspirations but no hard facts regarding what she hopes to achieve during the term of the Government.

What are the problems in Irish education that need immediate attention and where do the Minister's proposals set about addressing them? Inequality is a fundamental factor. There is lack of access for young people to third level education. Many figures have been put forward. It is accepted by Ministers and educators that if a child comes from a low income family, whether they are working or receiving State support, that child's chance of receiving third level education is practically zero. This is a loss not only to the child and his family but to the community. In many cases it is the loss of an excellent talent that could be nurtured in the best interests of the country. How does the Minister's proposal to abolish fees address that problem?

The second issue is maintenance. It relates to keeping students who, under the present grant system, go to third level but cannot afford to stay there or if they do manage to stay there, they must work whatever free hours they have in order to survive. Any educationalist will admit that this is bound to affect their results and their ability to stay the course. Third level education is extremely competitive. Students who must work during their free time in order to maintain themselves at college are not on an equal footing with those who need not do so. How does the Minister propose to deal with that problem? Certainly she advanced no specific comment in her remarks this evening on how she proposed doing so.

We are all aware of the inequality of the present system. Only today I was examining the position in my county, Cork, in which I discovered that the farming community receive 25 per cent of all grants, employers receive 10 per cent, yet social welfare recipients receive a total of 27.5 per cent. Therefore, when we speak of additional places in third level we shall have to examine the cost-effectiveness of their provision. Within the term of office of the previous administration I asked the Minister for Education whether she had examined the cost-effectiveness of providing places in universities and regional technical colleges. The figures to hand suggest that the universities cost a pupil in the region of £4,500 whereas the regional technical colleges cost in the region of £2,500.

For instance, the Minister has not dealt with the problem of the present major overcrowding in our universities, whose theatres are overflowing with 300 and 400 students, packed to the walls, attending lectures. This clearly demonstrates that universities are under-funded, yet the Minister is unwilling not only to provide funds but even to ascertain whether they are giving good value for money.

Our regional technical colleges and institutes of technology are the real success story of education but, unfortunately, under the auspices of this Minister they have been deprived. For example, within a short 25 year period they have catered for in excess of 52 per cent of all third level students, providing businesses and industry with graduates with which to drive this economy forward, emanating from the greatest diversity of courses provided anywhere in Europe. What will the Ministers proposals do to help these colleges provide the education their students deserve? The Minister's proposals solve one problem, they will get rid of fees to the tune of £50 million but who will pay? To date, taxpayers and private individuals funded our universities and colleges while it has to be admitted that the growing sector is research and development.

The Minister's original proposal, to eliminate fees altogether, effectively means she will look after those who are highly paid and will not have regard to the fact that some of them earn £100,000 per annum. I see no espousal of the recognition that there should be a major increase effected in the present income thresholds relating to the PAYE sector, people earning, say, between £15,000 and £20,000, some of whom have two or three children attending university. That inequity must be dealt with in the short term in the forthcoming budget. I urge the Minister to forget the fancy footwork and get down to ensuring that much greater numbers of people within the PAYE sector are given a fair deal, access to third level education, bearing in mind those in the lower income sector who have not been catered for to date.

I thank my colleagues for the opportunity to make a short contribution to this important debate. It is timely that it should take place in the run-up to the budget, when the Minister for Education clearly will be considering the priorities within her Department. It goes without saying that the overall third level sector is most important. This debate also provides us with an opportunity to consider and examine the anomalies and inequities in the provisions of the various grant schemes under their three separate headings, the higher education grant scheme, the vocational education committee scholarship scheme and the ESF grant scheme.

Perhaps the best starting point is to examine income thresholds in respect of full maintenance and full fees. For example, the annual income threshold of a person with three dependent children is £16,348. Compared to the income threshold for four to seven dependent children of £17,982, one sees the serious anomaly/inequity in that sector — seven children versus three children, the gap in the income threshold is very narrow indeed. The Minister needs to address that anomaly when proposing amendments. Where there are eight or more children in family the income threshold is £19,617.

I shall confine myself to giving a number of examples, some real, others representing possible circumstances that might arise. I came across a particular case in the past 12 months. I am sorry to note that Deputy Derek McDowell is no longer present having regard to some of his remarks. A farmer with a medium-sized farm on the basis of accounts submitted to the local Revenue office was deemed to be eligible for receipt of grants under the scheme. The farmer concerned was fortunate, or perhaps unfortunate, that an elderly uncle who died at the ripe old age of 90 bequeathed a farm of 36 acres to him. That farm happened to have an encumbrance of something in the region of £12,000 to £15,000 arising from a public liability claim fought successfully against the holding when in the possession of his uncle. The farm was in a particularly run-down state, the estimate for reclamation work was in the region of £12,000 and, when carried out, would enhance the asset value of the holding which, for the purposes of processing his application, amounted to £45,000. After the various adjustments had been made the final position was that that farmer's application for grant aid was disallowed, hence his intellectually well-endowed son had to attend college being funded by the farmer raising a loan for the purpose. I understand that a conservative estimated annual cost of maintaining a student in college at present is in the region of £5,000 to £6,000. In addition, I understand there is no provision in the grants scheme for tax relief on interest paid on moneys borrowed to maintain a student in college.

Clearly there is a serious anomaly in the grants scheme in that somebody fortunate enough to have inherited a farm found that, as a result, he was deemed to be ineligible. I might add that I am talking about a farm whose productive capacity was nil because it was in a very run-down state and would have necessitated considerable expenditure on getting it into shape. Needless to say, the reclamation work on that farm had to be postponed.

Therefore, one wonders about the priorities within the theories of economic development when examining details of such cases. I hope the Minister is listening to the monitor. The case was unsuccessfully appealed to her Department. I am prepared to provide her with all the details of the case were it to be reconsidered.

The other case I have in mind is that of an estranged couple, with three children. The wife works, the husband also works but, unfortunately, he has an addiction that lends him to fritter a considerable proportion of his weekly salary, making no contribution to the upkeep of the home. The couple part; the son and daughter then become eligible for higher education grants. The husband returns, then the son and daughter become ineligible for grant aid because the combined incomes of the spouses puts them above the income threshold, yet the husband is not making any contribution to the young people's education or to the upkeep of the home. There is a need for flexibility in the grants scheme to ensure that regulations do not preclude intellectually well-endowed students from attending college in such circumstances.

Previous speakers have rightly focused on the plight of the PAYE sector. Many people who are in receipt of an income which is marginally above the poverty threshold are unable to afford to put their sons and daughters through college. That must be addressed in the scheme. It is a net loss to the long term economic well-being of the country that people with the necessary intellectual ability are precluded from going to college because their parents do not have the financial resources to support them.

Debate adjourned.
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