Mary Harney
Ceist:3 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the terms of employment of his special adviser on Northern Ireland; and the reason this post is being integrated with the post of programme manager in the Taoiseach's Department. [1149/95]
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Departmental Staff.
Mary Harney
Ceist:4 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach his Government's attitude to the appointment of programme managers and special advisers by the various members of the Cabinet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1150/95]
Mary Harney
Ceist:5 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the number of staff he has appointed to his Department; their respective roles; their remuneration; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1151/95]
Mary Harney
Ceist:6 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the staff appointments which have been made by each Minister of State attached to the Department of the Taoiseach; the role to which they are assigned; their remuneration; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1152/95]
Bertie Ahern
Ceist:7 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach the names of all unestablished civil servants appointed since 15 December 1994, including programme managers, special advisers and other staff; and the salaries, duties and terms of appointment of these appointees. [1465/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 to 7, inclusive, together.
The programme manager system is one designed to manage a political programme for Government. It is, therefore, one that I believe should be properly operated by people who have a clear political perspective, combined with other appropriate skills.
In this we are not critical of civil servants who in the last Government were part of the programme manager system. On balance we felt that to maximise effectiveness and to avoid any possibility of politicisation of the Civil Service, it was best to proceed in the way we have decided.
In the case of my own Department I decided to employ Mr. Séan Donlon, former Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs, who also has a strong business background, in a position combining the work of programme manager and that of special adviser on Northern Ireland. I made this decision because his combination of experience in the Northern Ireland, business and administrative areas makes him especially suitable for this combined role.
He is engaged on the same terms and conditions as approved for all such appointments, namely, his is a temporary unestablished position, under a contract that terminates not later than the date on which I cease to hold office as Taoiseach.
Contracts of employment for the unestablished staff at my Department are being drawn up at present. Their names, roles and annual salary are set out in the schedule I am circulating in the official report.
Unestablished Staff at the Department of the Taoiseach — January 1995
|
Role |
Annual salary |
|
|
Office of the Taoiseach |
||
|
Mr. Seán Donlon |
Special Adviser-Programme Manager |
At the level of Secretary, Department of Foreign Affairs |
|
Mr. Roy Dooney |
Special Adviser |
£40,700 |
|
Ms Dee Johnstone |
Personal Assistant |
£23,500 |
|
Ms Deirdre Concannon |
Personal Secretary |
To be finalised |
|
Ms Ruth Cashill |
Personal Secretary |
£12,870 |
|
Office of the Chief Whip |
||
|
Ms Deirdre McDevitt |
Personal Assistant |
To be finalised |
|
Office of the Minister of State |
||
|
Mr. Tommy Morris |
Special Adviser |
£25,556 |
|
Ms Mairead Harnett |
Personal Secretary |
£16,200 |
|
Mr. Sean Lynch |
Civilian Driver |
£12,927 |
|
Mr. John Fagan |
Civilian Driver |
£12,927 |
|
Government Press Office |
||
|
Mr. Shane Kenny |
Government Press Secretary |
£50,140 |
|
Mr. John Foley |
Assistant Government Press Secretary |
£45,146 |
|
Mr. Tony Heffernan |
Assistant Government Press Secretary |
To be finalised |
|
Ms Marie McHale |
Personal Secretary to Mr. Foley |
£22,258 |
|
Ms Lorraine Glendenning |
Personal Secretary to Mr. Heffernan |
£8,554 |
The Taoiseach's special adviser on Northern Ireland is a good appointment and, despite what was said in recent times, Seán Donlon played a key role in bringing about the Anglo-Irish Agreement and in educating Irish Americans about the reality of the problem in Northern Ireland. Having said that, why was it felt necessary to combine the function of special adviser on Northern Ireland with programme manager? Was this done merely to justify payment of a higher salary?
I thank Deputy Harney for what she has said about Mr. Seán Donlon who has taken a certain amount of unjustified criticism because of his decision to assist in the public service for the lifetime of this Government. The decision to combine the two jobs was made, essentially, because he seemed to have an almost uniquely good combination for both roles. I felt it would be unfortunate if he were simply to be, say, adviser on Northern Ireland in a position where his expertise as a former departmental Secretary and a former business person across a wide range of other issues arising in the Programme for Government would not be put to good use. I also felt that to appoint him, on the other hand, as solely a programme manager, where his input to Northern Ireland matters would be minimal, would not be putting his talents to good use either. I felt, therefore, that the combined role was the best one. I made that decision independently of any other considerations, apart from the one I have just mentioned, including that of salary.
The position in regard to salary was decided because Mr. Donlon had retired from the public service approximately eight years ago at the rank of departmental Secretary and had gone on to achieve higher levels of remuneration in the private sector. I thought it would be invidious and unwise to ask somebody of his calibre and experience to return to work in the public service at a salary scale less than the one he had been working at when he was previously in the public service. That was my decision. It is a decision that can be criticised because no matter what level of salary one fixes for any appointee, one person will say it is too much and another will say that it is not enough. The decision was mine, I take responsibility for it and I am answering for it here to this House.
Will the Taoiseach state if the salary is greater or lesser than that paid to Minister of State Rabbitte?
Poor old Rabbitte.
Was Mr. Donlon prepared to take the position for a lesser salary than he is being paid?
The answer to the first part of the question is that it is a greater salary in terms of salary per se. I cannot put a monetary value on the other perquisites that go with being a Minister but certainly in terms of salary, his salary is greater than that of a Minister of State. The question of his taking the job at a lower level of salary did not arise. I made the decision that that was the appropriate salary to agree to. There was no process of horse trading about it. I believe — and I think the Deputy has acknowledged this, perhaps indirectly — that a man of this calibre is of great value at this critical stage in the peace process where we need to bring in all the expertise we have to bear on the problem. However, we are very fortunate in the level of dedication in the Department of Foreign Affairs and indeed among the permanent officials in my own Department dealing with Northern Ireland. They have been doing tremendously good work, in assisting my predecessor and all the other Ministers of the previous and present Government, in bringing the peace process to its present stage. The process is now entering a more complex stage where we are having to elaborate a more detailed agreement built on the principles of peace and the principles set out in the Downing Street Declaration. The additional expertise that somebody of Mr. Donlon's experience has, which dates back to the time of internment in Northern Ireland, preparing the case for the Court of Human Rights to the negotiation of the Sunningdale Agreements and the Anglo-Irish Agreement, will be extremely useful to the Government in carrying the peace process further.
I now call Deputy Ahern whose question No. 7 refers.
Minister Coveney was elected a Deputy to this House ten weeks ago and then on to ministerial office. Needless to say, we on this side of the House wish him well in that role but the central theme of the campaign literature he used during the Cork by-election was — and I quote from the Fine Gael leaflet——
I am sorry, Deputy Ahern. Quotations at Question Time are deemed not in order.
I will not quote from it.
Paraphrase it.
It would take too long to quote because it gives a litany of all the appointments. It stresses that others in Government, namely, Fianna Fáil and Labour, were involved in choosing their cronies and family relatives for various posts.
A question, Deputy.
Will the Taoiseach agree it is a flagrant abuse of public trust and accountability to campaign actively as an Opposition party for two years and then, as soon as that party goes into Government, to reverse everything it said in the previous two years? The Taoiseach, as the then Leader of the Opposition, objected to the appointment of programme managers as non-civil servants and then immediately engaged in an orgy of making appointments from outside the public service, thereby undermining it. How can the Taoiseach justify such a blatant and cynical U-turn? Does he think the public are so gullible that they will believe his view was changed because of one newspaper article?
I certainly criticised the appointment of programme managers.
We remember that.
It is a pity the Deputy did not remember that when he was over here.
I expressed reservations about the appointment of programme managers at the time they were appointed. I will not attempt to deny that. I have, however, analysed the Programme for Government of the previous Government and indeed the Deputy has a question down about that later. While I would criticise some of the priorities in that Programme for Government and regard parts of it as somewhat misguided or vague, if one actually reads the legislative commitments in it, one will find that the rate of implementation is very high. There are few remaining legislative commitments from that Programme for Government that have not been either acted upon or progressed quite considerably.
The rate of implementation of previous Government programmes, without the aid of programme managers, was considerably less in terms of delivery of legislative measures. It was not for lack of political will but for lack of administrative backup. The system of programme managers worked effectively in the outgoing Government and I believe it would be foolish for an incoming Government to abolish something that worked well for a previous administration. This is something we discussed with both the Democratic Left Party and the Labour Party in negotiations leading to the formation of the Government.
We have a very ambitious programme to implement in the next two-and-a-half years which contains many new commitments not included in the previous Government's programme. If the previous Government had a system that helped them in administrative terms to deliver its programme effectively, it would be foolish of us not to learn from that and apply that lesson. That is what we have done. I realise I am open to the sort of criticism that Deputy Ahern is making on this occasion and, no doubt, he will score by making that criticism. I am quite happy that what we have done will prove to be a good decision when, in two-and-a-half or three years time, the delivery of the programme of Government of Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Democratic Left is assessed.
In other words, the Taoiseach has changed his mind.
There is nothing wrong with that. Seán Lemass changed his mind a few times too.
The 75 appointments that the Taoiseach has made shows he has changed his mind. Would the Taoiseach agree that it is, essentially, the job of public servants to implement Government programmes? He has already quoted Éamon de Valera and Seán Lemass. The last Taoiseach would have agreed that civil servants were the people to do that job. Will the Taoiseach confirm that he has not followed what was done by the last Government as he has sent out a letter from Fine Gael headquarters to the effect that Fine Gael activists should be taken on to help to regenerate the party in Government? Perhaps the Taoiseach would explain to the House how Fine Gael activists, Labour activists and Democratic Left activists will implement the programme when it was the Civil Service that implemented the previous programme? The legislation was successful because the civil servants were dedicated to implementing it.
We are having statements to a certain extent.
The Taoiseach stated in his long reply that he was following the example of the last Government. With one exception Fianna Fáil Ministers employed civil servants. Is it not the job of civil servants to implement Government programmes?
I disagree with the Deputy. A programme for Government is a political programme agreed between parties and the political job of managing that programme is more appropriately done by somebody who is a member of or a supporter of the party that originated the programme. I realise the Deputy has a different view, to which he is entitled, but it is my view that it would be unfair to ask civil servants to be the political managers for a particular political party when, following a change of Government, they will be working for a new Government with a different composition. That politicises the civil servants concerned. In saying that, I am making no criticism of the programme managers who served Fianna Fáil Ministers. Nor do I criticise Fianna Fáil for doing what it did because it did it with relative speed and it worked fairly well.
However, as a long term arrangement, I do not think it a good one. A better long term arrangement, if we are to use the programme manager system, is not to appoint non-political civil servants as programme managers because their non-political status is interfered with by asking them to do political work. Rather such positions should be filled by people who are appointed only for the lifetime of the Government involving the parties they are serving. This is the approach the Labour Party took in the last Government. It is not the approach Fianna Fáil adopted. On balance, I believe the Labour view on that issue was right. Although I respect Fianna Fail's reasons for its decision, I disagree with it.
If that is the Taoiseach's view, where does it stop? Will he appoint party activists to the boards of State companies? Will he appoint them to other agencies where the Government wants to implement policy? It is usually civil servants who implement Government policy. Is the Taoiseach saying he will implement policy throughout the system by appointing party activists all over the place? He has already made 75 appointments.
I am answering a question specifically about programme managers whose job is to implement a political programme. I am not answering questions about appointees to State companies. The best people available should be appointed to the boards of State companies. Most of the appointments we have made — one was discussed at Cabinet only yesterday — involved reappointing people who were appointed by the previous Government because they were doing a good job. They were not removed just because they happened to have been appointed by Fianna Fáil and Labour. We may do otherwise in other cases but the job of programme manager is a political one which should be filled by somebody with a particular political commitment.
The Taoiseach knows from previous ministerial experience that civil servants implement Government policy in State agencies. They did that throughout the crises of last year. Is the Taoiseach appointing advisers to do that job? Following his own logic he will have to do that.
In talking about State companies, we are talking about something different. I was surprised at the way the outgoing Fianna Fáil Government appointed many people to State boards and to the Seanad. That was an unworthy action by a Government which had no mandate from the Dáil. I am surprised at Deputy Ahern bringing up the question of appointments to State boards because it is one area where his party is not in an particularly strong position.
We are in an excellent position. We left many positions for the Taoiseach to fill.
Will the Taoiseach accept that he was wrong when he told the Dáil on 11 October that programme managers have no function, were merely the essential perks of office and that the system was not justified? In the light of his current experience, will he withdraw that statement?
Yes.
May I take it that the Taoiseach is not implying that the civil servant programme managers appointed by the last Government would have to be replaced in future because one must have political activists to implement a programme?
They do not have to be political activists.
The Taoiseach said that.
I did not say they had to be political activists. I said they have to be committed to the political programme being implemented.
On 11 October the Taoiseach was not aware that the programme managers were of any use and by 11 January he had come to the conclusion that they are the greatest thing since the sliced pan. Having come out of his Rip Van Winkel sleep and nodded in the direction of the new goddess, OTA — openness, transparency and accountability — will he agree that everything he said in the past three years about programme managers was a load of hogwash?
I do not make any apology for changing my mind or indeed taking on board good ideas that come from elsewhere but I certainly do not take back all I said. In particular I do not take back what I said about the Deputy's party in my speech on the beef tribunal debate.
At 3.30 p.m. the Chair will be proceeding to deal with priority questions.
The Chair does not have to if it does not want to.
I do. I specifically must in accordance with our Standing Orders which provide time to deal with priority questions.
In view of the Taoiseach's sudden enlightenment, falling off the horse on the road to Damascus, would he now consider asking the Minister for the Marine, Deputy Coveney, to put an advertisement in the Cork Evening Echo and the Cork Examiner to apologise to the people of Cork for the mistake under which he also laboured?
Anyone who has observed the way in which Deputy Coveney, as Minister for the Marine, within hours of his appointment was able to negotiate extremely effectively for this country at European level on the fisheries issue will be very pleased that not only was he elected a Member of this House at the Cork by-election but also that I was in a position to appoint him a Minister so soon after he became a Member of this House.
And that he was helped by very able civil servants.
And with the full agreement of Deputy Allen.
Will the Taoiseach explain his Pauline conversion to political programme managers in the light of the performance of the Labour Party in the recent by-elections.
I recall the Fianna Fáil results were not exactly brilliant either.
Try telling the truth.
For the first time the Taoiseach has given us the real picture with regard to Mr. Donlon's appointment when he said that he had come from the private sector and had to be paid accordingly. I accept that but why have handlers and sources close to the Government been presenting it as two jobs which require two salaries? Will the Taoiseach not agree that Northern Ireland requires one adviser and what is the role of the new Secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs? Who is in charge? May I remind the Taoiseach that on his appointment he said that good government is a public service and it should be kept simple. Has that aspiration not been turned on its head by this appointment as I think it leads to confusion and creates the impression that nobody is in charge?
I suggested that Mr. Donlon's salary was set not in terms of his private sector income, which I imagine was substantially greater, but by the level of his salary when he worked previously in the public sector. On the question of doing two jobs I have replied already that he had an almost unique combination of experience which I wanted to combine in one job because not to do so would mean that some of his experience would not be put to sufficient use. It is extremely important also that the Taoiseach in dealing with Northern Ireland can and does draw on the services of the entire Department of Foreign Affairs and the section on Northern Ireland in the Department of the Taoiseach, as indeed the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs has the capacity to draw on the advice available in the Department of the Taoiseach. The issue of Northern Ireland should be dealt with and is being dealt with on a teamwork basis between the two Departments. That is the way it should be and in that way we will get good results.
Does the Taoiseach accept that the unique industrial relations skills of the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Rabbitte, will be required to deal with the salary scales of programme managers given that the chief programme manager will be on double the salary of the others?
No.
What is the overall cost of the appointment of programme managers and advisers made by the Government to date?
I suggest the Deputy tables a question and I will supply all that information.
It is actually included in the questions.
The salary levels in my Department are contained in the tabular statement but it will be a matter for the other Departments to supply the information for their Departments and I expect that when these questions have been answered by all of the Ministers, the Deputy will be able to do the sums. I have no doubt that she will not be shy in making it known to those whom she feels should know it.
Presumably the Taoiseach will want to know.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that he requested the Ministers in his party not to appoint senior civil servants as programme managers?
That is correct. I said I wanted the Fine Gael Ministers to appoint people from outside the public service because I believe, as I have explained three or four times already in response to earlier questions that it is invidious to ask permanent civil servants who have to work for every Government regardless of its political complexion to do this inherently party political work as programme managers.
That is a slight on civil servants.
I made that request to all Ministers from the Fine Gael Party and I believe it was the right thing to do. I have explained in inordinate length this afternoon why I have done so.