Vol. 449 No. 1
11 Mr. M. Kitt asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will review the method of assessing means of smallholders for unemployment assistance purposes; and, in particular, if he will take into consideration the farm income assessment by the inspector of taxes for each smallholder who applies for unemployment assistance. [2988/95]
Social welfare legislation provides for the assessment of smallholders means as the gross yearly income from the holding less expenses necessarily incurred. It is a factual assessment and is designed to reflect the actual net income to the smallholder from working his farm. I presume there may be women smallholders.I will have to talk to my Department about gender-proofing my replies in future.
In computing income, account is taken of the value of sales of milk, livestock, crops and subsidy payments such as headage payments. All expenses actually and necessarily incurred are deducted from this. These include the cost of fertilisers, repairs to farm building and fences, the cost of replacing farm machinery, use of hired labour other than family members, the cost of electricity and transport used for farming purposes, veterinary expenses, purchases of fodder and animal feed, rent of land, crop sprays etc.
The claimant is given a copy of the report by the investigating officer on the sources of income and expenses and is also given details of how the deciding officer has calculated the means and how this determines the rate of assistance payable.
In practice, most smallholders applicants for unemployment assistance are not liable for tax and are not required to submit tax returns. In so far as any assessments which are available show the factual income position, as required under social welfare legislation, they would be used by the social welfare inspector in preparing his report. However, the use of tax assessments would not be a reliable approach in all cases.
Any smallholder who is dissatisfied with the rate of means assessed may apply for a review or may appeal the assessment to the independent social welfare appeals office. The procedure in this regard is the same as for all categories of claimant.
In view of the fact that we have a charter of rights for farmers would the Minister agree to allow smallholders the same right as other farmers, that is, to bring in a farm assessment agreed by the inspector of taxes? Contrary to what the Minister said, I have come across cases where the farm assessment by the inspector of taxes is less than that compiled by the social welfare officer.
I understand it is proposed to develop a charter of rights for farmers but it is not yet in existence. Obviously, I will have some interest in it when it comes up for discussion. The present system is fair to all concerned. It would be unfair to have a different form of assessment for smallholders than for other claimants for social welfare.The fact that most, if not all, smallholders are satisfied with the current arrangements is evidenced by the fact that there are few appeals against the assessments made.
Does the Minister accept that depreciation is not allowed in the assessment of smallholders? The reason for the small number of appeals is there is no use appealing the assessment.The appeal must be based on wrong information or wrong assessment not on the system being unfair. Would the Minister accept that it is unfair and totally against the spirit of enterprise to have a pound for pound assessment for small farmers?
I do not accept that. The money paid to smallholders is a valuable way of assisting them to remain on their holdings. I am aware, as are those who raised the question, of the extent to which some smallholders live in a precarious financial position. I am pleased that the Department of Social Welfare are in a position to assist them but it is only fair that such assistance is based on the actual income of those concerned. It would be invidious to have a system of assessment for smallholders which would be different from or more favourable than that applied to other persons in similar circumstances, for example, small business people who may have fallen on hard times. Repairs to buildings and so on are allowed for in assessments. Depreciation is not provided for in means tests and it would not be proper to do so. Farmers have other ways of availing of such benefits.
I do not agree with the Minister. There is a completely different system for medical card assessment. When it suits a Department it says we will assess a farmer's income in a different way. It is sometimes very difficult to make out what is on the report which is made available to small farmers because social welfare officers do not have the typing facilities to print a report. Will the Minister look at that? As regards the charter for farmers, the least to which a farmer is entitled is to see the printed report.
If farmers experience difficulty in ascertaining the contents of the report, I would be more than willing to ensure that the report is altered so that they clearly understand the basis of assessment, but I cannot perceive any valid case for assessing smallholders differently from others in similar circumstances.
What about medical card holders?
The Department of Social Welfare undertakes such assessment under social welfare legislation whereas assessments undertaken for eligibility for medical card purposes are undertaken by the Department of Health——
——on a notional basis.
If the Deputy likes, I will talk to the Minister for Health to ensure he falls into line with the practice of my Department.
Ceist amháin eile.
We have expended a considerable amount of time on this question and I ask Members to be brief. I will now call Deputies Ó Cuív and Joe Walsh who have been offering.
Will the Minister accept that small farmers in my constituency never have any chance of earning an income from farming that will not warrant its support in social welfare? Will he also accept that on a £1 for £1 means assessment, farming is a totally useless exercise because, for every £1 earned one loses £1 in social welfare benefit, which means such people never get above the basic social welfare rate, no matter how hard they work?
Regrettably, that is the position of all social welfare recipients——
And the Minister thinks that is fair?
No, I do not. I have already told the Deputy's party's spokesperson that I do not regard the level of social welfare payments as being adequate in any sense.
I am talking about the method of assessment.
In so far as I can, I will endeavour to ensure that social welfare payments reach a point at which——
The Minister is avoiding the question.
——it is possible for people to live in reasonable dignity, even though they are dependent on social welfare, have reached old age, suffer infirmity or are unable to find work in normal employment. In current circumstances in which smallholders, who are after all owners of land, have capital, it is useful to have a system of providing them with assistance to remain on their land. If a change is to be effected in the assessment of means, it will have to be applicable to all claimants of social welfare, not merely to smallholders.
Does the Minister not think it is about time change was effected as there is chaos when different means are used for assessing self-employed people, regardless of, whether they are farmers? For example, if somebody applies for a medical card or a higher education grant, if another has a query in respect of income tax and perhaps another in regard to a pension, officals from different Departments assess them. Surely their income is the same no matter which Department assesses it? Will the Minister agree it is time this assessment was streamlined and rationalised? Furthermore, since the Department of Agriculture pays headage grants, which will be taken into account in reducing the amount of unemployment assistance to some unfortunate small farmer, has the Minister any plans to rationalise this means of assessment for self-employed people generally?
I intend to investigate means-testing in general in so far as it is undertaken by my Department. Of course, it would be very nice if we could have circumstances in which all Departments applied the same criteria — I am not too sure how practical that would be at this juncture — but it is something I would be interested in following up. I must emphasise that social welfare payments to smallholders are intended to ensure that they do not fall below a certain level of income. I have already made the point that I do not regard the level already provided as adequate for a whole range of people on social welfare, but it is not intended as a substitute for income earned from farming or any other kind of work or activity.
The Minister is satisfied with the farmers' assessment?
As the Deputy knows, I have very little sympathy for the ranchers who dodge paying their fair share of tax but I have every sympathy for smallholders struggling to hang on to a small piece of land, eke out an existence and rear a family on it. I have no hesitation in saying so and, in so far as my Department can ensure that they continue to do that, I will so ensure.
