Vol. 449 No. 2
1 Miss Harney asked the asked the Taoiseach, in view of the commitment given in paragraph 6 of the Joint Declaration between the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister on 15 December 1993, that the Irish Government would remove obstacles in this State to a pluralist society, the measures, if any, he has or is taking to fulfil this commitment.[
The commitment made in paragraph 6 of the Joint Declaration is set in the context of political dialogue involving the Unionist community.I can assure the Deputy that the Government intends to honour it. I believe that the Government's proposal for an all-party committee of the Oireachtas to review the Constitution demonstrates very clearly its openness to change.
Has work been done in advance of political talks on this area? What areas does he envisage this review covering?
I am unable to discover so far any substantial work done on this matter prior to my accession to office. I do not have any body of work, of which I am aware, to build on, beyond the very valuable work that is being done in the forum where there has been an exchange between the parties about how we could value the concerns of the Unionist tradition in Ireland. I have made suggestions in this regard and in regard to commemorations and other such recognitions of the value and validity of the Unionist tradition on the island of Ireland.
The question of increased pluralism in our society is an important issue as far as the Unionist community is concerned.It is important, however, and I am making this point in deference to the previous Government, that it is clearly stated in paragraph 6 of the Downing Street Declaration that the changes referred to are to be considered in the course of political dialogue with the Unionist tradition, in other words it is clearly anticipated in the Downing Street Declaration that the Unionist tradition should tell us what it is about this State that it regards as being in any way threatening and that we should act on the concerns expressed, not that we should set out to transpose our own ideas about what they might think into reality and say that is designed to satisfy them. It is a matter for them to say what is of concern to them and we have not reached the point since the Downing Street Declaration where such a level of political dialogue has occurred that one could say one had had authentic representation from the representatives of the Unionist community of the type of changes that might be needed to remove the obstacles they might regard as being there to a fuller understanding between them and us.
Will the Taoiseach not accept that it is most unlikely that the Unionist community will come and tell us what it is they find objectionable since that would be involving them in what they might regard as united Ireland talks? Does he not agree that we should start doing this for our own sake——
Yes.
——that our Constitution and some of the laws in this State are not acceptable to the people in the Twenty-six Counties, even if we ignore the difficulties they might cause for the Unionist community? In that regard would the Taoiseach not consider in advance of the constitutional issues, and they are separate from other legal issues, setting in train a review process so that we can review for our own sake the things that make this society less acceptable to those who want to see pluralism?
There are two parts to the Deputy's question. First there is her statement that it is most unlikely the Unionist tradition would wish to express views about changes required here, but if that is the case part of paragraph 6 of the Downing Street Declaration is defunct.It states:
In recognition of the fears of the Unionist community and as a token of his willingness to make a personal contribution to the building up of that necessary trust, the Taoiseach will examine with his colleagues any elements in the democratic life and organisation of the Irish State that can be represented to the Irish Government in the course of political dialogue as a real and substantial threat to their way of life and ethos,...
It is clear that that passage in the Downing Street Declaration, about which the Deputy has put down a question, is exclusively predicated on the expression by Unionists of a concern in this matter. The Deputy has said that she regards it as unlikely they will ever do. If that is the case both her question and that passage in the Downing Street Declaration are beside the point.
I happen to disagree with her as I think in the process of coming together in terms of understanding the two traditions on the island it is reasonable that we should listen to criticism from people on the other side. From time to time we are willing to criticise certain aspects of the Unionist tradition but if that is the case we should be equally willing to listen to criticism in the course of political dialogue that he might wish to make to us.
Second, the Deputy asked whether we should make such changes for their own sake. Of course we should and the Government is intent on doing that. Precisely because we recognise that such changes should be made for their own sake. The Government is in the process of initiating an overall review of the Constitution and is also proposing certain other specific changes to the Constitution which are referred to in the joint programme.
I agree with the Taoiseach.Paragraph 6 was not meant to be a unilateral declaration by us or a unilateral examination of where we fall down on pluralism but when we finally start talking to the Unionists and engage in dialogue on an all-party basis we can do that. Paragraph 6 goes on to state:
The Taoiseach hopes that over time a meeting of hearts and minds will develop, which will bring all the people of Ireland together, and will work towards that objective,...
Even if the Taoiseach were to take the view that we had some work to do — and he has said recently at Question Time that his constitutional review will be commenced — there are changes already under discussion as part of the framework document. We have a strong record on pluralism in education at first, second and third level. For example, we have a Muslim school whereas in the UK they have none — it is frowned on. On that, we have a strong position. Will the Taoiseach confirm that the reason no work was done on this issue was that it was never intended that we should try to force anyone? There was never to be a unilateral examination, but cross-party dialogue after the framework document was completed.
That is broadly correct.As I read that paragraph of the Downing Street Declaration, it was never the intention that the Irish Government should write the Unionists' agenda for them. It is a matter for them to write their own agenda. Deputy Harney has a point in that regard which was dealt with at the forum.
We must make the maximum effort to understand Unionist concerns. If I were asked to express a personal opinion about that I would say that their concerns are broader than simply questions of pluralism in terms of laws or various subjects. Unionists feel they are British and have a loyalty to Britain and to the sense of a multinational state which is Britain. They consider themselves to be simultaneously Irish and British. The challenge for us is to try to find a way to accommodate that within our sense of what it is to be Irish — to have a sense of Irishness which is inclusive of people who feel they are Irish but who are, at the same time, British.
This year marks the 50th anniversary of the ending of World War II when 10,000 Irish people from both sides of the Border wearing British uniforms lost their lives in bringing to an end the worst tyranny in the history of mankind. April 15 will be the 50th anniversary of the liberation by British forces, some of whom were Irish, of the concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen where a huge number of people, including Jews and other European nationalities, were put to death by Nazi tyranny. Great credit is due to those in British and other uniforms who gave their lives to bring that appalling tyranny to an end 50 years ago this year. If we want to reach out to people of the Unionist tradition, show an appreciation and understanding of their sense of being British, the value of that tradition to them and its global value in other senses, we should be willing to commemorate that triumph of goodness over evil. I hope we will have the courage to do so. For my part, I intend on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Belsen to pay my tribute to those who gave their lives to end that tyranny and to the memory of so many, particularly Jewish people, who lost their lives before that war was successfully brought to an end.
I am very pleased with the Taoiseach's reply. I was going to ask him if the Government could find its way to honouring those who died in World Wars I and II. Both Dr. Alderdice and Roy Garland last week referred to the fact that the Republic does not seem to have any memorials to commemorate the other tradition on this island. Roy Garland went further and said he thought many of the memorials were to saints.
As regards the pluralist society, when the declaration was published I took the view it should not require others to tell us what to do but that we should do it for our own sake. I disagree with the Government's approach to constitutional change and believe it is unnecessary to appoint a committee of experts in advance of politicians looking at it.
I understand it is the intention of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform to publish legislation on equal status. He has given some details of what the legislation will entail and made it clear that it will prohibit discrimination on grounds of gender and race but did not refer to religion. Will the legislation prohibit discrimination on grounds of religion?
I will ask the Minister for Equality and Law Reform to consider that. I cannot go further at this stage. Although it is a valuable suggestion it has been made without notice and I would wish to discuss it with the Minister.
The Irish State has maintained at public expense the war memorial at Islandbridge and successive Governments have maintained it in very good condition. Recently I had occasion at the forum to pay tribute to my colleague in Meath, the then Minister of State at the Department of Finance for the work the Office of Public Works was doing to maintain the memorial. That work was continued under Deputy Hogan and will now be continued under Deputy Higgins.
The sentiments expressed by the Taoiseach are worthy. Each summer we attend a remembrance service for all the women and men who died in warfare anywhere, including in both world wars. It is a proper occasion on which to commemorate them and is well attended.
The constitutional review is underway. However, will the Taoiseach agree that there are many areas in life where we could improve the climate for the Unionist people and diminish any sense of threat or fear? One of these is the area of multi-denominational education here and integrated education in the North. Successive Ministers have sought to bring about a system of multi-denominational education. Does the Taoiseach agree that parents who put forward such ideas should be openly welcomed?
Yes. Multi-denominational education should be encouraged on both sides of the Border.
We must bring this question to finality. Deputies Brennan and O'Donnell may ask brief relevant questions.
The Taoiseach told the House he intended to appoint a committee of experts to review the Constitution.Has he had an opportunity to consider the composition of the committee and when might he appoint it?
I am working on it. I do not have anything to report since I answered the question about it two weeks ago. I am not in a position to set a date yet.
Without waiting for the Unionists to tell us what is wrong with this State which gives us a bad odour from time to time, will the Taoiseach agree that one of the main perceptions is there was an unhealthy coalition between Church and State in drafting the Constitution and the formulation of many of our laws? The separation of Church and State is a crucial matter which must be dealt with here if we are to improve understanding between the two communities and between Protestants and Catholics in this State.
Question No. 1 relates to paragraph 6 of the Downing Street Declaration which specifically relates to Unionists' concerns about this State and is not related to changes we might wish to make for our own sake. I hope the Deputy understands that. Her question does not derive from the question tabled by her party leader. As far as the matter on which she has expressed an opinion is concerned, I regard the Churches as having a very valuable role to play in all political dialogue in this country. I do not see anything threatening about any Church expressing opinions on issues of legislation or otherwise. It is important that people in elected political office have the courage and self-confidence to disagree with Churches when that is appropriate and equally the confidence to agree with them when appropriate. We should not find ourselves in the position where, for reasons of political correctness or otherwise, we feel we have to disagree with an opinion coming from a particular source, for example, a Church just because it happens to come from that source.
We must show a willingness, as a mature democracy, to accept the representations of Churches as representations, nothing more and nothing less. We must remember the great record of the Churches in the provision of social services in many instances before the State provided them. The Churches have every right to express their opinion, we must listen to it but, in the end, we are the people who must make the decisions.
In view of the sentiments expressed by the Taoiseach on the removal of obstacles in this State, will he say whether he has any plans to meet the leaders or representatives of the UUP, the DUP, the PUP and the UDP to listen to any fears they might have in regard to any obstacles they might perceive as obtaining within this State? In that regard, would he take particular cognisance of the terms of paragraph 6 of the Downing Street Joint Declaration?
I should like to tell the House that I make ongoing and continuous efforts to keep myself fully informed of the concerns of all of the Unionist parties, formally and informally.It is extremely important that Governments here should fully understand the full range of opinion within unionism and the different views held within that group of political parties. I do that in a very conscientious way almost daily.
The Taoiseach had a chance on Friday last at the meeting of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation but missed it.
I have had many contacts even since then.
