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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Jun 1995

Vol. 453 No. 8

Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I welcome this important Bill. During my 14 years as a Deputy only a handful of Bills dealing with children have passed through the House and we have much further to go in ensuring that children are adequately protected.

The critical issue at the heart of this Bill is the right to make public details of cases. I am glad that the Bill deals directly with this issue as publicity is vital in this area. Some speakers were concerned about the nature of reporting, that it was intrusive and seemed to be obsessed with details which might not be central to a case. Until such time as we deal in a mature way with this problem and put in place a full range of services which will respond to the needs of children it is important for these cases to be reported. These cases remind us of the need to ensure that priority is given to child care, prevention of abuse, parenting skills and services for the abused and abuser. There must be reporting of cases until such time as all these issues are fully dealt with.

The ISPCC has been to the forefront in bringing about changes in attitudes and leading campaigns for action on children. As legislators we could hardly do better than take on board the recommendations in its document "Towards a National Child Abuse Prevention Strategy" which was launched by the Minister of State. This document contains a comprehensive set of recommendations on incest, sexual abuse, neglect and psychical abuse. While most practitioners in the field are involved in the delivery of services the ISPCC has taken to itself a policy development role.

During the debate on the Child Care Act those of us who wanted the State to go further called for the establishment of a national child care authority which would monitor the implementation of the Act and ensure that services were developed and the issue was not forgotten about when it was no longer centre stage. The failure to set up such a body has led to a major gap in this area and there is no consistency in the way health boards carry out their functions. I do not think any health board could say its child care services are on a par with those provided by hospitals. Community care was regarded as the Cinderella service in terms of funding — it has received greater priority recently — but child care is even lower down the scale. This is why we only legislate in critical cases such as those which have led to this legislation. It is essential to set up a child care authority which would carry out reviews and monitor the system on an annual basis. The ISPCC recommends the appointment of an ombudsman for children. While I would prefer an authority the ombudsman could carry out similar functions. It is important to monitor how Departments implement legislation and to ensure that resources are allocated to the areas most in need.

In its report the ISPCC suggests that legislation offers the possibility for preventing child abuse. This Bill is important in that context but more legislation is needed. It also says that legislation can be used to bring about a change in public attitude and institutional practices. The Select Committee on Social Affairs has begun consideration of elements of the Law Reform Commission's report on children. These relate to outdated and outmoded practices which in theory still exist in our law, for example, the right to whip young male offenders. It states that society should be moving towards the introduction of a total ban on the physical punishment of children. Children alone do not have the absolute right guaranteed to every other person under the Constitution to their full bodily integrity. Their right to full bodily integrity is qualified by parents and those acting in their place by using justifiable chastisement in their care and education. This right, based on legal precedents, can be justified from the age of one. Infants of that age can understand physical chastisement. The Law Reform Commission and the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children are strongly of the view that we should be moving towards banning that.

As long as we have double think in our society where we suggest it is right to do to children something which if done between two adults would create an offence and lead to a court case, we create a grey area in which parents and other carers of children operate. Occasionally they stray into the areas of abuse.

Legislation can be used to bring about a change in institutional practice. I hope I will live to see that legislation introduced in this Chamber. We in the Select Committee on Social Affairs will do some work on it in conjunction with the Minister of State and the Minister for Justice, both of whom would have an interest in these broad areas.

Where this ban operates in other countries, including a number of northern European countries, the impact has been significant, the level of abuse generally and of physical punishment of children has dropped. Also there has not been a rush of court cases as some people fear. Only one minor case has been taken in Sweden. Many of the fears which people have about the State interfering with families do not materialise. We should send out a clear message to parents that there must be better ways of dealing with their children.

It is important to debate these issues at every opportunity. This Bill is important because it ensures that the issues relating to one of the most horrific areas of abuse, child sexual abuse within their own family, will remain in the public eye and will be reported on. I hope that will be a stronger voice than I can be towards ensuring that we have further legislation and more resources and that this problem is not forgotten about.

This is important legislation and I have no difficulty in supporting it. I wish to avail of the opportunity to take up a point made by Deputy Flaherty, that of abuse within the family. I am not satisfied that the guidelines laid down for health boards in regard to the investigation of sexual abuse within the family are as watertight as they might be. We are all interested in ensuring protection for the child or the children involved. There is another dimension to it that we must also have regard to, protection for the innocent parents who may be involved and who may be accused in the wrong. Parent protection is equally important.

There have been examples of parents who have been accused by errant children of wrongdoing, incest that did not occur. This came to my attention over the past 12 months arising from two cases with which I became familiar. In one case a school attended by the child made a report to the Garda Síochána that there could be possible parental interference. The child was mildly retarded. The parents were understandably shocked. An investigation was carried out by the social worker and the Garda Síochána. Those parents were left for nine months without knowing the results of the inquiry and endured enormous stress and trauma during that time. At the end of the nine months it has been established that there was no case to be answered.

In the past two months I had a case where a 16 year-old made an accusation against her father of sexual interference. The mother believed there was no truth in the accusation and has had a nervous breakdown. The father is held in odium among the public because the errant child indicated to the neighbours that he had interfered sexually with her. At the end of a six months period we find there is no basis for the accusation.

In setting down guidelines it is important to have regard to the fact that there must be written in the safeguarding of the good name of the parents. I was not happy with the procedures put in place in the investigations carried out in both of those cases. If they are indicative of the type of investigations being carried out by health boards and the Garda Síochána they are not satisfactory and I ask the Minister to examine them carefully.

The parents in the second case have told me their name has been impugned, that they had been treated shabbily by the health board and badly treated by the Garda Síochána. They asked about their legal standing and whether they could take a case for being wrongfully pursued and hounded to the point where one of them had a nervous breakdown. While we must root out incest and sex abuse within the family equally we must be extremely careful when taking up such cases that we take full cognisance of the circumstances on both sides before getting into the full investigation.

The Minister will be aware of the Garda complaints and that the number has increased annually. The same must not occur in regard to sexual assault or incest within the family. I ask the Minister to examine the guidelines critically. I gather that in the Southern Health Board region there are loose arrangements rather than strict guidelines in regard to any investigation into such matters. National guidelines which would be strict and fair should be put in place to protect the good name of everybody involved.

I have listened with great interest to the contributions of Deputies O'Donoghue, O'Donnell, Frances Fitzgerald, McGahon, O'Dea, Flaherty and Batt O'Keeffe. A number of very real and important concerns have been expressed in the course of this debate on the general subject of sexual abuse and, in particular, child sex abuse. These are obviously concerns which I share. As Minister of State with special responsibility in this area I would be as anxious as any member of the general public that the most effective arrangements should be in place to ensure that such abuse is prevented and where it takes place is dealt with in a manner which reflects the seriousness of the harm it has caused to children who are the most vulnerable members of our society.

The purpose of this Bill is to address the problems which have emerged from the rulings of the Central Criminal Court in an incest case. One of the effects of these rulings is that persons with a genuine interest in the welfare of children cannot be informed of the outcome of criminal proceedings where incest charges are brought against a person who has sexually abused a child who is a close family relative. The Bill closes the gap created by the rulings and puts it beyond doubt that information on incest convictions cannot be denied to bodies with responsibility for child welfare.

In addition, provision has been made to allow the press attend incest hearings and report on the proceedings subject of necessity to restrictions on the disclosure of information that could lead to the identification of the victim or family involved. This will help to make the public aware of the extent of sexual abuse and make it clear that such conduct cannot in any circumstances be tolerated.

The Minister acted quickly to bring this legislation forward so that children could not be put at risk as a result of the rulings of the Central Criminal Court. She is fully aware that wider issues arise in this area. These are important questions which she has promised to address. She has given a firm commitment that shortly after this Bill is enacted she will publish a discussion paper on the subject. This will be circulated to individuals and bodies with expertise in dealing with the problems of sexual offending. The consultation process will be carried out with a tight deadline and the Minister will bring forward proposals for such legislative changes as may be required in this area with the minimum of delay.

The Minister has also indicated that she will approach any amendments Members may put forward with an open mind. Both she and I gave similar assurances in the Seanad; she was as good as her word then and she will be as good as her word now. In that context, there is an urgent need to resolve the problems which have arisen as a result of the Central Criminal Court rulings. The more general issues will be covered in the discussion paper which will be circulated without delay.

I would like to refer briefly to the contributions made to the debate. I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for expressing support for the Bill. I regret that to some extent at least he seemed to be more intent on making political points, unsuccessfully, rather than some of the other points that he might have addressed, but that is politics. He raised the question of extending the scope of the Bill to cover the offence of unlawful carnal knowledge. A number of other Deputies, including Deputy O'Donnell, also raised this question. Deputy O'Donoghue said he would table an amendment for this purpose. I will bring this matter to the attention of the Minister and deal with it in due course.

Deputy O'Donnell raised a wide range of issues many of which go beyond the scope of the Bill. I have taken a particular note of the points she raised and will inform the Minister that the Deputy is concerned that the restrictions that apply when asking questions about the previous sexual history of a rape complainant should also operate in incest cases.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald stressed the need to protect children from sexual abuse. This is an area in which the Deputy has been active for many years. I am happy to be in a position to acknowledge the work she has undertaken in that regard and thank her for her kind comments about my participation. I noted with great interest the points she made about the rights of families versus the rights of individual members of the family. This is a sensitive matter which is of concern to us all.

Deputy McGahon highlighted the way in which cases involving sexual offences are reported in the media. This is a topic on which many people hold different opinions. The Minister will seek views on the type of reporting arrangements which should apply in these cases in her forthcoming discussion paper. The Deputy will not be surprised to learn that I disagree with him on certain other suggestions he made.

Deputy O'Dea referred to the problems which confront the victims of sexual abuse. This must be a matter of concern to us all. The Deputy raised the possibility of tabling amendments in this respect but I am not sure if it would be appropriate that such general issues should be dealt with in this Bill.

Deputy Flaherty referred to the importance of reporting proceedings in which persons are charged with sexual offences. Where abuse takes place it must not be swept under the carpet. People must be made aware of the extent of the problem and how cases are dealt with. The Deputy had some interesting remarks to make about the extent to which we are coming to terms with the painful realities of child sexual abuse. I welcome her offer of co-operation on behalf of the Select Committee on Social Affairs.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe said that it was a matter of regret that the guidelines were not as tight as they might be. He referred in particular to the interests of innocent parents. I am well aware of the problem in this regard. The guidelines must be interpreted with great sensitivity. When I published the most recent guidelines drawn up between the Garda Síochána and the health boards, much emphasis was placed on the need for sensitivity. There is a great responsibility on all those engaged in this field to find the proper balance. This is not always easy.

I thank all the Deputies who contributed to the debate which has been both useful and informative. I appreciate the support expressed for the Bill from all sides of the House and I look forward to its enactment at an early date.

Question put and agreed to.
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