Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1995

Vol. 459 No. 8

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Owen)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Bill introduces very modest and limited amendments to the Licensing Acts. The main aim of the Bill is to ensure that shops that have licensed sections can open as if it was a weekday on any Christmas Eve or 23 December that falls on a Sunday. The last time Christmas Eve or 23 December fell on a Sunday was five years ago. This year Christmas Eve is a Sunday. The legislation will not be relevant again for another five years.

The Bill recognises the fact that people like to shop, eat out or simply meet their friends for a drink on Christmas Eve, even when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday. Like other legislation, the licensing Acts have to keep pace with the realities of modern life. That includes facilitating retail business and consumers in the run-up to Christmas.

With Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday this year, restricted trading hours would apply to premises licensed to sell alcohol, like shops, supermarkets, pubs and off-licences. Were that to remain the position it would cause unnecessary difficulties for those persons who rely on food shops being open during their final preparations for the festive season, I am one such shopper. I have in mind in particular people shopping for fresh foods in the run-up to Christmas. I also have in mind the many people who actually like to shop at the last moment and for whom such shopping has become a tradition. Of course, there are many families who like to shop and sample the atmosphere of Christmas Eve. There are people who because of work commitments or because some family members are living or working away from home find it difficult to organise a family shopping day until Christmas is almost upon them.

As matters stood, when Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday, licensed premises could not open for business until 12.30 p.m. and had to close their doors between the hours of 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. For proprietors of and shoppers in most premises with off-licences, that would mean a very unpleasant day. One could easily envisage the chaos that would ensue in supermarkets, especially at check-outs, if the available shopping time was shortened on what is one of the busiest days of the year. Some shop proprietors might take the view that trading on Christmas Eve would be so disjointed it would be better, perhaps even safer, not to open at all. In addition, uncertainty as to which shops would open and which would remain closed would add to shoppers' problems.

Under this Bill public houses and off-licences will also be able to open as if it was a weekday on what is normally a busy day for them, one on which persons may like to meet and have a social drink. The supply of meals in hotels and restaurants with wine licences or pub-type licences was restricted also. Without this proposed change such premises would be unable to open between the hours of 3.p.m. and 4 p.m.

That is the reason I decided to introduce this short Bill this year which will do no more than permit shops with licensed sections, pubs, registered clubs and restaurants with licences to operate on Christmas Eve, as they did last year and every other year when Christmas Eve fell on a weekday. I should stress that its provisions will not permit later opening times in public houses because their closing time on Sunday nights and on week nights during the winter months is the same, 11 p.m.

The key provisions of the Bill are contained in sections 2 to 6. Section 2 amends the generally permitted hours provisions of the licensing Acts so that the hours that apply to premises such as public houses, hotel bars and restaurants with full licences, in addition to off-licences and supermarkets which retail the full range of alcoholic drinks, on any Christmas Eve or 23 December that falls on a Sunday will be the same as if either such day was a weekday. I am including in my proposal any year that 23 December falls on a Sunday, as the arguments for weekday hours on a Christmas Eve Sunday also apply to any 23 December that falls on a Sunday. Being aware that both Christmas Eve and the preceding day are extraordinarily busy in all shops, I consider it practical to treat both, for trading purposes, in like manner.

The net effect of section 2 is that the premises I have referred to will be able to open for licensed business at 10.30 a.m. on Christmas Eve this year and will not have to close between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. Section 2 and sections 4 to 6 deal with the hours during which drink may be sold in the various types of permises referred to in those sections. Section 3 deals with mixed trading. For anyone who may not be familiar with the concept, mixed trading, in the context of the Licensing Acts, refers to businesses which involve both the licensed sale of drink and the sale of other commodities referred to as non-licensed business. The Licensing Acts make allowance for the demands of such businesses by permitting them to open early during weekdays for non-licensed business only. This is to facilitate, for instance the delivery of goods from suppliers to businesses such as a grocery with an off-licence. Section 3 will enable these weekday mixed trading provisions to apply to the premises concerned on a Christmas Eve or on 23 December which coincides with a Sunday. That means shops with on-licences attached will be able to open for non-licensed business at 7.30 a.m. on Christmas Eve this year and shops and supermarkets with off-licences will be able to open for non-licensed business at 9 a.m. Such businesses are simply being allowed commence their non-licensed business on Christmas Eve this year as on every other year that Christmas Eve falls on a weekday. The licensed business will commence at 10.30 a.m. This is the reason, not always well understood or appreciated, persons can purchase their shopping in say supermarkets from 9 a.m. on a weekday but have to wait until 10.30 a.m. before they can purchase alcohol.

Section 13 of the 1927 intoxicating Liquor Act, as amended, allows less restrictive hours to apply to the sale of alcohol with meals in hotels and restaurants. Section 4 will extend the more generous weekday provisions to a 23 or 24 December which falls on a Sunday. Thus, that section will allow, say, a family which is delayed by shopping, to obtain a meal in any of the premises concerned at any time in the afternoon of the coming Christmas Eve. It will also allow hotels and restaurants to serve alcoholic drinks with substantial meals on a 23 December that falls on a Sunday as if it was a weeknight, i.e. until 12.30 a.m. When 24 December is a Sunday alcoholic drinks will only be served and consumed with substantial meals until midnight, because, except where there is specific statutory intervention, Christmas Day is a closed day in licensed premises.

Section 5 extends the proposed changes to registered clubs and section 6 does so in relation to restaurants with special restaurant licences. In the case of restaurants with special restaurant licences the usual Sunday afternoon times when alcoholic drink cannot be served or consumed with substantial meals is slightly different from other licensed premises, that is, it is 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. Therefore, this year persons eating out in such restaurants on Christmas Eve will be able to have a drink with their meal no matter what time of the afternoon they are eating.

On the position of supermarkets and shops, this Bill does not affect any retail outlet that does not have a liquor licence. Neither does it affect the non-licensed business in supermarkets and shops that sell alcohol from a structurally separate part of the premises. By structurally separate I mean where the portion of the premises in which non-licensed business is carried on is structurally separated from the remainder of the premises. They can do such non-licensed business any time on a Sunday in any case. This Christmas Eve they will, of course, be able to sell alcohol on their structurally separated licensed areas as they would on weekdays.

I add my voice to the Minister for the Environment's call for sanity and care on the roads at Christmas. There has been a very marked change in many people's habits when it comes to driving without drink and it is essential that this attitude extend to all.

The Garda Síochána will enforce the law vigorously, and I appeal to drivers to have patience if they get stuck behind a queue of cars being checked by gardaí. We will all be the winners if fewer people drink and drive.

This is a minimal change to our licensing laws to allow for a circumstance that has arisen this year — the fact that Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday. Many Members will use the opportunity afforded by this debate to highlight other elements of the licensing laws about which they are concerned and which they may wish to see changed or strengthened. Our licensing laws are extraordinarily complex. Whenever a Minister has begun to review or to make minimal changes in them it has given rise to very robust debate outside the House and among its Members.

I look forward to the co-operation of Members of the House so that we can pass this very minimal Bill. If there are wider issues of interest to Members, I hope other opportunities will be taken to debate them. I have suggested to some Members that it would be an appropriate issue for the Select Committee on Legislation and Security to review. I have been told there are other elements I could have included in this legislation, but I do not wish to delay it because it will only be of use if we pass it before Christmas Eve.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I welcome this pragmatic legislation. The general public will also welcome these minimal changes.

The Bill states that the normal commencement time for the sale of intoxicating liquor in supermarkets will apply, that is to say, 10.30 a.m. Many housewives and others may want to shop early in the morning and may not have the opportunity of doing so later in the day. It would, therefore, be desirable to make a minimal change to this Bill to allow people to purchase intoxicating liquor during normal shopping on Christmas Eve, even if it falls on a Sunday.

It is an absolute nonsense to have to close restaurants between 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. on normal Sundays, because many people go out for a meal on a Sunday and find that they cannot have an intoxicating drink with their meal just because it is between 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. A change in this requirement is something the Minister might favourably consider in the context of this legislation.

The introduction of licensing legislation often leads to very heated debate among the general public and interested parties. No society can afford not to have restrictions on the sale of intoxicating liquor for obvious reasons. For example, it would be undesirable if people under the age of 18 years were entitled to purchase intoxicating liquor as this could lead to severe dangers for them in future. In this context one wonders whether this minimal Bill should go a little further. There are many who feel that the normal closing hours which will apply on Christmas Eve, if Christmas Eve should fall on a Sunday should also apply to St. Patrick's Day or to New Year's Eve or New Year's Day should they fall on a Sunday. They are occasions for celebration. The view is held in some quarters that the Bill should be amended to take account of that.

Restaurants licensed to sell intoxicating liquor fall into the same category. Licensed premises with a convenience restaurant annexed thereto are much in evidence in Dublin. Such restaurants are entitled to sell intoxicating liquor until midnight under the law. While this may be acceptable throughout the year it ought not be the practice after 10 p.m. on Christmas Eve. Christmas is a time for the family. Unfortunately some men consume too much drink and there can be considerable violence in the home at what is supposed to be the happiest time of the year. It is undesirable for people to go to a public house on Christmas Eve and not return home until midnight. It would be preferable if closing time on that day was 10 p.m. If a husband consumes too much alcohol or has a drink problem women and children suffer. To minimise the risk of violence in the home it would be preferable to have earlier closing on Christmas Eve. This would be welcomed by society and particularly by those vulnerable women and children. They would thank the Minister if this small concession were granted.

I did not have time to table an amendment but the simplest way to deal with the issue would be to insert an additional section. Subject to the amendments tabled the Bill is welcomed. Identity cards must be introduced for those under the age of 18. Young people purchase alcohol in supermarkets and other outlets. They have cider parties, etc. which lead to violence, vandalism and alcohol dependency which in turn leads to drug dependency. We must recognise that the lives of young, vulnerable and deprived people who have easy access to alcohol are ruined by alcohol or drugs dependency. It would not be a simple matter for the Minister to introduce legislation in this complex area but retailers find it extremely difficult to ascertain the age of young people purchasing intoxicating liquor. The majority of retailers have no wish, nor would they intend to sell intoxicating liquor to young people. Retailers and parents would welcome the introduction of an identity system.

There is also an argument to be made for introducing restrictive legislation to stamp out the sale of ecstasy tablets in pubs, clubs, discos etc. Every possible obstacle must be placed in the path of those who distribute or facilitate the distribution of drugs. The licensing Acts must be amended urgently to enable gardaí to serve a warning notice on managers of pubs, clubs etc. where drugs are distributed and consumed. The recent deaths of young people serve to highlight the problem which has spiralled out of control. Ecstasy tablets are available in every parish, village, town and city. Unscrupulous people use the premises of others to ply their trade in death. We were horrified to hear of the deaths of so many young people this year.

While it is true that the vast majority of managers would not be aware that ecstasy is sold on their premises it must be made clear that where they have some knowledge of it and do not take the appropriate action to stop it the courts will be empowered to suspend their licence for an initial period of 60 days. If the appropriate steps are not taken such premises should be closed down for good.

There is, of course, a need for knowledge on the part of the managements, but there have been instances where not only did the managements have some knowledge but subsequently participated in this vile criminal offence. In a few cases managements have turned off the public water supply and sold water to young people who had taken ecstasy and required the water to prevent dehydration. There is no excuse for that and there must be no hiding place for people who manage their premises in that manner. Such people are not entitled to be licensed; they should not be allowed to run any premises. I suggest that not only should their licences be taken from them but they should be jailed.

It may sometimes be difficult to prove that an individual knew ecstasy tablets were being sold in his or her premises. However, through legislation amending the Licensing Acts, an onus must be put on management to take the necessary steps to prevent the sale and distribution of illegal drugs on their premises where they have some knowledge that it is taking place. Let us be honest and admit that there are few managers of clubs or discos who would not know people are purchasing ecstasy tablets. for example, on their premises. They would know by the actions of the young people concerned, perhaps on an habitual basis, that they had taken an illegal substance.

While recognising that no innocent manager should or could be convicted, those who have knowledge that such practice takes place on their premises should be obliged in future to implement preventative measures to ensure their premises will not become the location for the death of a young person. The parents have had enough. If the ecstasy problem in some clubs and discos is not stamped out soon we will have more fatalities. If the onus is not shifted to the managements the problem will continue to grow and be a danger to young people.

My colleague, Deputy Woods, will make clear our party's objection to the equal status legislation whereby an owner of a premises must give a reason for a refusal of service. With regard to drug pushing on a licensed premises, possibly the owner of such a premises may know that an individual frequenting it is a drug peddler but may not be able to prove it. If the owner refuses to give a reason to such a person for being refused service, the owner would be liable to a sanction under the legislation proposed by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform. However, if the owner gives the reason and cannot subsequently prove it on the balance of probability, the owner could be sued for defamation and could be liable for damages.

If we are to suggest that an onus be put on the management of premises to put their houses in order with regard to the sale and distribution of drugs on their premises, it is axiomatic that we should also ensure that the management or owner putting preventative measures in place would not be hindered and placed in danger of a major or minor action in defamation.

The owners of many premises, particularly those in tourist resorts, feel there should be an extended period given to them for the sale of intoxicating liquor during the peak tourist season. There would be considerable objections to such a measure among those who feel the present licensing laws give too much leeway. There is an argument for extending the period in the case of visitors to an area. However, such issues would require a more lengthy and considered debate than the one we have today. The Minister has taken a pragmatic step on which I congratulate her and I ask her to take on board the points I have made.

Ms O'Donnell

I support this Bill which proposes a specific measure to allow premises to open on Christmas Eve, in like manner as if it was a week day, when it falls on a Sunday. Any measure relating to the licensed trade or intoxicating liquor inevitably tends to degenerate into a more general debate. Perhaps because we deal in an ad hoc way with changing the licensing laws we never really have an opportunity to have a social policy debate on the consumption of alcohol and its impact on health and criminality. The present rates of criminality are closely linked to alcohol abuse.

The position on pub licensing hours needs to be reviewed. As the Minister suggested, the Select Committee on Legislation and Security could take on a new project — as if it had not enough to do. In an ideal world where the Opposition and the committees were better resourced we could enter a useful investigation of a review of the pub licensing hours. Ireland is one of the few countries where central Government dictates to such a great extent the times people may go out for a drink.

Dublin is a modern upbeat city and Europeans are surprised at how the licensing laws hinder the night life. The same limits apply to all pubs and there is little or no attempt to cater for local circumstances. A small pub in a quiet country village has the same closing time as a large venue in the centre of Dublin. There is no facility whereby pubs can stay open later on busy weekend nights than on quiet evenings earlier in the week and during the summer, pubs are required to close early on Sunday nights. The pub trade is a major contributor to the economy. Licensed premises, including off-licences give employment to 61,000 people and act as unpaid tax collectors on behalf of the State. In addition, the licensed trade plays an increasingly important role in the development of the tourism industry. Our pub culture is a major attraction for tourists. However out of that pub culture flows many of our special problems to which other Deputies have referred.

There were calls earlier in the year for a relaxation of the law on opening hours. These calls are made sporadically but nothing ever happens because there is not an urgent need for a debate on it although there is general agreement among our citizens on the need to reconsider the laws governing pub opening hours. Some weeks ago an unnamed official from the Department of Justice was quoted as saying "there were no plans for any modification in the present rules". This information was communicated to the public in an abrupt manner. I am not sure if this official represented the Minister's position.

Many pubs in Dublin decide off their own bat to stay open late and it is not uncommon for pubs in the city centre and in the suburbs to remain open until 1 a.m. They seem to be able to get around the licensing laws by claiming to offer a rudimentary restaurant service and the Garda appear to turn a blind eye. In some cases the gardaí knock on the door of a pub across from one of these establishments to make sure it is closed. If premises remain open on the pretext of selling chicken and chips it is time to clarify the law as otherwise it is brought into disrepute. Either the law is rigidly enforced in all premises or a new regime should be introduced.

In many countries the local authorities have the primary responsibility for supervising and regulating the retail drink trade. The opening and closing times are set to suit local conditions. This applies in jurisdictions where the authorities at local level have much more power than our local authorities to make decisions on pub opening and closing hours in their locality. It is difficult to reconcile Dublin's new found status as the jet set tourist capital of Europe with an administrative system which shuts the pub at 11 p.m. and virtually takes all public transport off the streets at the same time. Visitors to Dublin find it extraordinary that we are all supposed to go home to bed at 11.30 p.m. no matter what age we are.

Mrs. Owen

The Deputy is not asking me to make an obligatory bedtime?

Ms O'Donnell

It is time for a realistic debate on our licensing laws while at the same time being mindful of the social policy objective that the Minister and the Government has to protect us from ourselves given that our great thirst for alcohol is the downfall of the Irish.

Under age drinking is a huge social policy issue. Alcohol is a legal mood altering drug which is a gateway to illegal drugs. Many young people involved in drugs started by abusing alcohol which is available either at home or from their pals who buy it in supermarkets and off-licences. This leads them to the mood altering drug ecstasy. We now have an "E generation", as ecstasy is much cheaper now than when it first came on the market and is amazingly popular with young people. In spite of the highly publicised tragic ecstasy induced deaths of young people in the past year there seems to be an inability to get across to young people how dangerous ecstasy is and how even one tablet can prove fatal.

The local Garda Síochána in Dundrum, Dún Laoghaire and Sandyford operate a voluntary ID scheme with the co-operation of the licensed vintners in the area. This is working quite well. I believe many young people would like to have an identity card. The Minister should look at the role an identity card scheme could play in resolving the problem of under age drinking. A recent national survey of the licensed trade found that 89 per cent of respondents were in favour of introducing a national identity card system for customers. Of course, ID cards would not eliminate the problem of under age drinking but it would be a step in the right direction.

Deputies mentioned the impact of drink on criminality. We have not come to terms with criminality's links to alcohol abuse. The gardaí constantly tell us how frequently alcohol is the cause of and motivation for many brutal crimes.

In the context of the widespread use of ecstasy, the staff employed in clubs and dancehalls should be trained to deal properly with young people who collapse. In the old days the tendency was to let the person sleep it off but this is fatal if the person has collapsed as a result of ecstasy. I recall reading recently the tragic events surrounding the death of a young man in Dublin who collapsed and then was moved by the bouncer to the nearby laneway and left lying there. This young person did not get any medical attention and while lying in the laneway he was robbed by passing youths. It is like a scene from a horror story. This young man, the beloved child of his Irish parents had a very slow death. We need to be very strict in applying the law and setting out the obligations of people managing dancehalls and such premises where young people meet in large groups and ecstasy may be used. The bouncers and staff should be trained specifically to deal with youngsters who collapse from the use or abuse of alcohol and drugs. This should be looked into as a matter of urgency.

Certain dance venues and music are intrinsically connected with the use of ecstasy. It would be very easy for the officials in the Department of Justice and the Garda, who are carrying out an investigation into tightening up restrictions in these licensed premises, to have a fairly good idea about places which are well known as being used by the ecstasy generation. It has been reported by Deputies in this House that school children are regularly approached by people, including other school children, peddling drugs. This is obviously totally unacceptable and should be at the top of our agenda.

There is a direct link between alcohol and suicide. Our suicide rates are particularly high at the moment, particularly among young men. I understand that the suicide rate for young men has trebled in the last five years and is now a major cause of death for men between the ages of 18 and 25 years. I know that the Minister of Health is looking into this area in terms of introducing suicide prevention education and awareness raising measures. However, alcohol and lack of coping skills of young men in this age group, particularly when combined with high levels of dependency and poverty, lead to a need for us to be very careful about how we allow access to alcohol.

Having made those general points in relation to intoxicating liquor, I support the Bill because it is specific and should be passed before Christmas.

Dr. Upton

I also welcome this short, minimalist Bill which makes some fairly minor changes to the existing licensing laws and is quite sensible. Its provisions are needed and will help to prevent difficulties for people involved in that aspect of business coming up to Christmas. However, as the Minister indicated in her speech, perhaps more importantly this Bill provides us with an opportunity to comment on the licensing laws in general.

I have long held the view that our licensing laws should be deregulated. The way they work at present is undesirable and we would be better off if we let the market and people themselves control their drinking habits. If the licensing laws were deregulated there would be fairly significant changes in the way people behave in regard to drink, and pub opening times would adjust to the needs of the market rather than the present situation whereby many people behave in a manner which is encouraged and facilitated by the licensing laws.

Deregulation would mean that some public houses would stay open for long hours, some for only parts of the day and some would keep similar hours to food outlets and grocery shops. If that happened, a number of the undesirable attributes of drinking, which are now typical of Ireland, would fade away. It would put an end to people consuming large amounts of alcohol prior to closing time when people order double rounds to reach a certain drinking target. It would put an end to the unseemly behaviour which goes on in certain public houses where the bar staff feel obliged to almost harass people to leave to stay within the law. It would put an end to rushed drinking prior to leaving pubs which is highly undesirable, particularly in the tragic context where some people still get into motor cars which they are not fit to drive. If they could remain for a longer period in a public house, it might give them the opportunity to sober up and drink coffee, behave in a sensible manner and call a taxi or get someone to drive them home.

It would also considerably improve tourist facilities. It must come as quite a shock to tourists, particularly from the European mainland, who are used to public houses, cafes and other drink outlets being open almost 24 hours a day to come to Dublin, which is now portrayed as a modern, swinging city — rightly in many ways — and find that the pubs close at 11.30 p.m. in the summer. That has a detrimental effect on the tourist industry, particularly in Dublin and tourist resorts around the country where, to some extent, life only begins at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. It is a pity that publicans in those areas are forced to either break the law — which they should not do — or to order people out of their premises at 11.30 p.m or midnight. Greater flexibility and deregulation of the licensing laws would also end the phenomenon which exists to some extent in this city where people leave public houses and go to nightclubs where they pay two, three and four times public house prices for drink.

I do not accept that the present restrictions prevent the abuse of alcohol. Alcohol abuse arises from a series of complex factors. There are more than adequate opportunities for those who are inclined to abuse alcohol to so do at the moment. A considerable amount of Garda time is tied up in enforcing licensing laws and deregulation would free up much of that time which they could use in the pursuit of more important matters.

A number of speakers mentioned the levels of alcohol consumption and drew attention to the phenomenon of Ireland having a pub culture and so on. That is the impression but the data does not really bear it out. We are somewhere in the middle of the table of alcohol consumption across Europe and certainly far from the top. Many people do not realise that.

There is no denying that alcohol is a drug. However, it is one of the more acceptable and tolerable ones. In comparison to some drugs which are rampant across this city, it is relatively insignificant in terms of its undesirable effects for the vast majority of people who use it. There is, of course, an unfortunate minority who succumb to alcohol abuse and whose lives are dominated by it. However, I do not accept that the controls in relation to pub opening times have any significant or real impact on those developments. It is time for us, as a society, to place more emphasis on the need for individuals to be much more responsible in relation to how they regulate their lives. That is vitally important. It is time to move away from the concept that the State should have power to regulate people's behaviour even in simple matters such as the opening hours of public houses. That viewpoint is from another era and we should move on.

The Minister stated that she is interested in hearing our views on licensing laws in general. I hope I am not misquoting her in saying that I believe she is also interested in stimulating a debate on the need to alter our licensing laws. I have always held the view that a radical shake up of those laws is necessary. Much of our law in this area dates back to the last century, if not earlier. Some of my friends in legal circles informed me that the regulations on the required distance between public houses are founded on concepts that relate to Church of Ireland parishes and I am sure Deputy O'Dea will correct me if I am wrong in that regard. However, there is no doubt our licensing laws are from another age and it is time to move on.

The legislation fails to take account of changes in population density. While many densely populated areas in Dublin have a small number of public houses, other parts of the city have a large number of public houses per head of population and there is a public house at every crosssroads in the country. Such anomalies in our law, which create considerable difficulties, must be addressed. Difficulties will also arise regarding the price of public houses, the amount of money publicans invested in them and the assumptions they made when making those investments. Nevertheless, it is necessary to develop new concepts in this area.

Members opposite referred to the legislation that will allow publicans to bar persons from public houses. That legislation has not been published yet, consultations are being held with departmental officials and outside interests. While the legitimate concerns of Members in this regard must be considered, we must also bear in mind the legitimate concerns of publicans. If public houses are to be managed efficiently, it is essential that publicans are allowed exclude people from their premises, but how that should be regulated is a matter for debate and I am sure we will reach a satisfactory conclusion. From the point of view of efficient management and the welfare of publicans, bar staff and customers, people who cannot behave properly when they consume a certain amount of drink should be barred from the premises concerned.

Deputy O'Donnell linked the consumption of alcohol with crime. Such a generalisation is far too sweeping and, to a large extent, incorrect. Approximately 75 per cent of the adult population consume alcohol and the majority of them do not get involved in crime. In a small number of cases, the consumption of alcoholic drink facilitates crime, but if alcohol was not available those people would find other reasons for committing crime. The association of alcohol with crime stems to some extent from the fact that in pleading for leniency for their clients in court, the legal profession attribute their outrageous behaviour to excessive alcohol consumption in the hope that the judge is understanding. If their behaviour was subjected to critical analysis, I am sure that suggested link would not stand up.

Some Members referred to the problem with ecstasy, some of which is sold in public houses. This is a major concern and I agree with the sentiments expressed that no mercy should be shown to publicans who condone such activity. However, we must protect the legitimate interests of publicans as it may be impossible in some cases to monitor the selling of this drug in public houses but, for financial reasons, some publicans have condoned this activity. I would have no difficulty with allowing the gardaí more discretion on such matters when licences are being renewed in the courts.

I welcome the Bill and the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I welcome, in particular, the Minister's indication that she is interested in having a debate on the matter.

Dr. Woods

I wish to share my time with Deputy Jacob.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Leonard)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. Woods

I, too, welcome the Bill which will allow shops and supermarkets, public houses and other premises licensed to sell intoxicating liquor through retail premises to remain open on Christmas Eve or 23 December in any year that either day falls on a Sunday, as if it were a week day. This will facilitate customers and overcome the practical difficulty that arises this year and will arise approximately once every five years. This is a significant step.

While we recognise the importance of facilitating the licensed trade in these arrangements, we cannot ignore the tragic consequences of the abuse of alcohol, especially at this time of year. Deputy O'Donoghue referred to the difficulties faced by many women and children in the home in this regard. Domestic violence, marital discord, increased admissions to psychiatric units, unnecessary conflict between neighbours, road accidents and deaths are the outcome of excessive drinking and the abuse of alcohol. A large number of difficulties can arise at Christmas time from the abuse of alcohol. It is important that as a nation we learn to use alcohol without abusing it and we have learned a great deal in that regard in recent years. We should send out the clear message for Christmas that people should enjoy the festivities and celebrate the occasion, but should not allow alcohol destroy families or shatter lives. As public representatives, far too often we see at first hand the tragedy and desolation that follows accidents, particularly serious ones, at Christmas time.

Christmas is a time for families, particularly children. We pride ourselves on our family traditions and our care and consideration for children and much has been said about this in recent months. Let us enjoy Christmas but at the same time show care and consideration on the roads, in the community and among our neighbours. We should listen to the advice and warnings from the National Safety Council and the Garda Síochána whom we should support in their campaign to save lives this Christmas. In this regard I agree with the Minister and Deputy O'Donoghue. Members of the Garda Síochána, too, are human and many enjoy a drink. They have spouses and children, but they also see the carnage on our roads, the young and vibrant lives prematurely ended or scarred for life and the mad rush to hospitals to save a life or limbs. They are doing their best this Christmas. We should give them our full support.

The Government's proposal to remove from publicans and other service providers the right to refuse service is a source of great alarm throughout the country. The folly of this approach can be seen at this festive time. Fianna Fáil rejects the Government's proposal to remove from members of the licensed trade the right to refuse service and will oppose that part of the forthcoming legislation.

The two organisations representing publicans, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland and the Licensed Vintners' Association have expressed grave concern that their members will be unable to manage their premises if they are obliged to face the danger of an action for damages and-or an objection to their licence each time they refuse or bar a person. How will they deal with the problems of under-age drinking and drug pushing on their premises and those who appear to be troublemakers if they do not have the right to refuse permission? This right is crucial to the proper and orderly management of premises.

The dangers associated with ecstacy have been highlighted. The public house is one of the places where those who deal in drugs try to sell ecstacy and other drugs. When parents hear this from their children they approach management and ask them to do something about it. It is my experience that where managements have been made aware of the problem they have taken action and barred the people concerned without giving any reason. It is important, therefore, that the right to refuse permission is retained. There has been a breakdown in law and order and the position is bad enough without creating chaos in public houses.

In general public houses are well run, enjoyable places for public recreation. The public rely on their being safe establishments and expect strict management from publicans to maintain an orderly house. If they are hamstrung by the Government's proposals, they will find such management impossible and may be unable to meet the licensing requirements. Publicans have been so successful to date in practice that the Irish pub is now copied throughout the world from Moscow to Boston and from Stockholm to Johannesburg. Many now provide food, coffee and other refreshments in a social environment. I recall encouraging them when Minister for Health and Social Welfare in the early 1980s to do so——

Mrs. Owen

That caused ructions among restaurant owners.

Dr. Woods

There is a direct relationship between the price of alcohol and the number of admissions to psychiatric units about which the Minister for Health should be concerned. The lower the price the higher the number of admissions. This has been proved in the past. The Minister for Finance took this into account on occasions in increasing the take. In this way the costs associated with psychiatric institutions and units are also reduced.

Mrs. Owen

One also reduces the effects of alcoholism on families.

Dr. Woods

Governments, have always required strict supervision of their premises by publicans. No legislation should interfere with their ability to manage to achieve that strict supervision. The Government's proposed legislation is almost a directive not to manage. Fianna Fáil has called on the Minister for Equality and Law Reform and Government to find a more workable solution with publicans. The Irish pub works well and we should not try to fix something that is not broken. The right to refuse admission or service is of vital importance to the publican and Fianna Fáil supports the licensed trade and its customers in this regard. The Minister's proposals must be substantially amended or withdrawn.

Fianna Fáil rejects all forms of discrimination, but the proposed legislative approach will not work. It has defended the nation's publicans in their need to manage their premises and keep an orderly house, but now calls on the licensed trade to present its own proposals to deal with the issue of discrimination on its premises wherever it arises. It will have Fianna Fáil's full support in devising measures which would enable publicans to maintain an orderly house. Fianna Fáil has pleasure in welcoming the Minister's proposals in this Bill which it will support.

Debate adjourned.