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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Feb 1996

Vol. 461 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Misuse of Drugs Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I congratulate Deputy O'Donoghue on introducing the Bill and the Minister for accepting it. I would like to see less confrontational and more consensus politics in the House. There is no more important issue on which there should be consensus than law and order which is of paramount concern to everyone. The main concern of people is not unemployment — for a country of our size we have the best social welfare system in the world — but the escalation in the level of crime.

Like other Deputies on this side of the House, I totally reject Fianna Fáil's hypocritical contention that the present unacceptable level of crime is somehow the fault of the Minister for Justice. Like cancer which has a long incubation period, crime has been a growing problem for many years. Less than two years ago the then number one criminal, Martin Cahill, was gunned down on the streets of Dublin by the most ruthless gang of terrorists in Europe, the IRA, yet sweet Fanny Adams was done about it. Some of the howls of indignation from the benches opposite are totally over the top. Political parties play the political game and they avail of any temporary problem to cast aspersions on the Minister of the day. They are aided and abetted in this by the gods in the media, the so-called feature writers who sometimes are merely an extension of public house gossips. I am not referring to John Drennan in the Press Gallery; rather I am referring to some of the more seasoned gods in the media.

My views on law and order are well known. I believe I am known in the House as "hang them and flog them" and to the more intellectual Members I am too extreme while to some of the sneering media I am further right than Genghis Khan. However, I know the thinking of the people on the street and they want protection, particularly for the youth. It is said that youth comes at the wrong time in a person's life; it is a troublesome time for young people who are faced with many decisions. The Minister said she would introduce legislation on juveniles, fraud and crime. Does anyone really believe that these measures will eliminate drugs and drug misuse? They will not because they are not draconian enough.

If we want to stamp out the awful scourge of drugs we need draconian and radical measures, not commissions or inquiries. We also need to change the system which pertains in the courts and introduce punitive measures along the lines of penitential systems. Last week a young man who was shot and seriously injured in Dublin had 33 convictions. It is a terrible indictment of the system that he was allowed out on the streets. He and many others like him belong to the criminal class. He is a hardened criminal and should not have been let out on the streets. Repeat offenders should be put away, in some cases forever. It is a nonsense for a judge to sentence a person to six years in prison when he will be released after two years.

Serious measures must be taken against drug pushers. We should look to the Middle East where successful deterrents have been imposed, one of which is to shoot professional drug barons. Regrettable though they may be, such measures must be introduced if succeeding generations of young children are to be saved from the awful scourge of drug pushers.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Dan Wallace.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The several recent high profile and brutal murders have shocked and appalled everyone. However, it must be remembered that many crimes are committed on a daily and nightly basis in every city, town and village. These include muggings, break-ins, robberies, burglaries and beatings and involve houses, shops, public houses, cars and property. Very often the criminals use knives, syringes and guns. The media probably regard this as small scale crime which is not necessarily newsworthy. Nevertheless many people now experience real fear about crime. I am referring in particular to vulnerable people, such as the elderly, women who live alone and wives whose husbands travel as part of their work.

Much of this crime is drugs related and is now estimated to be responsible for up to 80 per cent of all indictable offences. Drug barons are perceived to be beyond the scope of the law. Society as we have known it is under threat, and this is happening right under our noses. The threat is the drugs crisis. The Government, and to some extent the Oireachtas as a whole, is seen to be complacent.

Some people, however, accuse politicians of being hysterical in their response. We are ridiculed for seeming to promote a "hang 'em high" or "lock 'em up and throw away the key" policy. Such people are out of touch with reality. They seem more concerned with the rights of the criminal than with the rights of the victim.

Nearly all my neighbours have been robbed in recent times. Several of them were confronted with guns or knives. One neighbour, whom I know very well, a young mother, was beaten black and blue in her home two weeks ago for £10. Another neighbour ended up in Beaumont Hospital for the night having been stabbed in the head — that happened about a week ago. I can supply the names and addresses of these people if necessary.

A report which makes frightening reading was presented by the Garda Síochána to the Oireachtas Committee on the Family in October last year. It indicated that drugs have replaced terrorism as the number one threat to the security of the State, that arrests and prosecutions almost quadrupled between 1987 and 1994, that the Garda Síochána know of 11 drug related deaths in Dublin alone in 1995, that three fatal shootings are being linked to drug dealing and that Dublin has the worst heroin problem, the most affected areas being the inner city, Ballymun, Ballyfermot and Tallaght. Ecstasy is a fast growing problem in Cork with dealers there also supplying Limerick and Galway. These are the findings of a Garda report so let no one accuse me of being hysterical in my response. Criminals must be targeted by introducing rational and reasonable laws.

What are the people's expectations of society and Government? They are a roof over their heads, clothes on their back, food on the table, security and protection for their families. The State must protect its citizens.

This Bill is most welcome. It deals with the supply side of the drugs problem. This legislation was promised last summer by the Minister for Justice in a blaze of publicity. She promised to give the Garda Síochána, under supervision by the courts, the power to detain suspected drug traffickers for up to seven days with adequate safeguards in place. She promised to give Garda chief superintendents the power to issue search warrants in urgent drug related cases and she promised to give Customs officials the power to question persons whom they had arrested on suspicion of drug trafficking.

This Fianna Fáil Bill, introduced by Deputy John O'Donoghue, attempts to deal with those promises and more besides. It gives legislative effect to the three objectives announced — the abolition of the cumbersome system of preliminary examination of indictable offences as at present carried out in the District Court and its replacement, for drug trafficking offences, with a fast track system which guarantees a trial within 90 days of arrest and the updating of the unsatisfactory temporary release scheme. This would mean amending the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, and the Criminal Procedure Act, 1967. These are reasonable measures. One must wonder why those objectives have not been brought forward in the form of a Bill before now. I understand the Minister has agreed not to oppose the Fianna Fáil Private Members' Bill.

We must take into account the composition of the present Government to realise why there is paralysis when dealing with the criminal justice system generally. The Government is made up of three parties — Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left — and there is no agreed political philosophy on the issue of crime. There is, therefore, no political will to deal with serious crime. There are different philosophies within the Government and agreement cannot, therefore, be reached. Legislation can be brought forward only if there is consensus among three very different parties. Unfortunately, crime is an issue where the consensus approach, the lowest common denominator of agreement, will not work. We need radical measures to deal with this very real threat, the drugs crisis which is threatening the very fabric of our society. There cannot be consensus and the general public, unfortunately, are left to cope with the situation as the Government muddle through from day to day.

There is widespread public support for a tough response to drug barons in particular, the godfathers of drugs. If that means the temporary suspension of their civil liberties, so be it. Obviously a democratic society has to have adequate safeguards and anything Fianna Fáil has produced over the last year has incorporated that. I can assure the Minister for Justice — I think she knows it but, unfortunately, she cannot persuade her colleagues in Government — that there is widespread public support for tough decisive action, as demonstrated by MRBI public opinion polls. When the Minister made the announcement last July MRBI conducted an opinion poll which showed that about 90 per cent of those polled agreed with the Minister's proposals incorporated in this Bill.

The question of the reform of the bail laws, while not specifically dealt with under this legislation, is also an issue which is concentrating the public mind at present. Again, the issue is being looked at calmly and rationally. Nobody is being hysterical, it is strange that people have not been more vociferous until now in demanding action on crime. There are divisions in Government on the issue of the bail laws, although it must seem sensible to reasonable people to bring forward proposals to refuse bail if there is a probability that an accused person is likely to commit a crime while out on bail. I have no doubt that, if that were put to the people in a referendum, it would be accepted. The financial cost and the threat to civil liberties must be considered, but those issues can be dealt with.

We are dealing with a serious problem. There is huge public support for amending the law. Recent public comment by a former judge and by other commentators in last Sunday's newspapers indicates that we are becoming a banana republic by not providing adequate prison places. Obviously more prison accommodation will be required if we reform the law on bail. When notable people suggest that we are becoming a banana republic because we cannot accommodate the prison population, we must ask serious questions.

A ground swell from the grassroots in the community is demanding action on the drugs problem. In spite of the pressures of modern living, we still have a very strong sense of community, very active voluntary organisations and a sense of justice and fair play. Parents have woken up to what is happening in their communities. They see their children being exposed to drugs on the streets and to syringes on the pathways outside their doors. We have been complacent because we were never confronted by anything like this before. The Oireachtas and the Government will ignore this ground swell in public opinion at its peril. It is not too late to do something about the drugs and crime problems. We do not have to take the same route as other societies, in fact, we can learn from how they tackled this problem.

This ground swell of public opinion is not being reflected in the media as of yet and I am not sure it has filtered through to this House, but it will be evident at the next election that parents want action against drugs as they are no longer prepared to put up with the risk to life and security. I believe this issue will be the most important political force in the community. I am sure many Deputies, particularly from Dublin, have attended public meetings on the drugs issue. Deputy O'Donoghue and I attended a public meeting in the north inner city last July at which we witnessed anger which has not been experienced by the policy makers at this stage.

This is an emergency and we have to confront the crisis which poses a threat to our society. This is clam, reasonable and pragmatic legislation dealing with the drugs problem and I am happy the Government is not opposing its Second Reading.

I congratulate my colleague, Deputy O'Donoghue, on bringing this Bill before the House. We live in an age where major break-throughs are announced daily. Great strides have been made in health care, engineering, communications and computer technology but, unfortunately, the tremendous potential which such scientific advances promise for everyone is often not realised for a variety of reasons. Some may attribute blame to our political institutions and structures, our education system and our inherited system of social organisation and behaviour. Others argue that the individual must take a degree of responsibility to ensure the overall well being of society.

The truth is to be found in understanding that many problems in society do not lend themselves to simple and rapid solutions. One must deal with many aspects of a problem on a number of levels over an extended period. This is certainly the case in dealing with drugs. In spite of the wide range of difficulties that must be tackled in a modern society, those associated with substance abuse are particularly dangerous.

When one has no personal or family experience of drug abuse it is almost impossible to gain an insight into the phenomenon. The logical consideration of the problem reveals the absolute tragedy that lies in store for those who experiment with drugs. Media focus on drugs is generally responsible and strives to highlight the disastrous consequences of drug abuse. However, in spite of all of these factors, the extent of the problem in society is increasing rapidly — some would say running out of control. The use of Ecstasy has added a new and extremely unwelcome dimension, with the loss of life becoming more common long before persons have reached the addictive stage.

What are we to do? I firmly believe that every step taken to deal with the problem must be well planned. It is totally unaceptable to remain paralysed by the challenges posed by drug abuse. It is becoming increasingly clear that a series of inter-linked policy changes will arrest the current downward spiral and bring about an improvement in the long-term. Deputy O'Donoghue's proposed Bill is designed precisely for such a purpose. In his Bill he has crafted a number of changes which will greatly improve the potential for an effective security response to the detection and the prosecution of drug abuse.

Part I makes provision for much needed extra scope and flexibility for the Garda Síochána in their management of cases during the early detention phase. While reducing the likelihood that a suspect may use the current loop-holes in the law to avoid vital questioning in the immediate post-arrest period the proposals are sensitive to the need to protect basic human rights. In this regard I welcome the Deputy's sensitivity to those who are under 18 years. It makes provision also for much needed improvements in the procurement of search warrants at the earliest possible time in the prosecution of a possible drug abuse case. Once the Garda Síochána become reasonably certain that an offence has taken place, it is vital that the rapid pursuit of the likely offenders meets with the least possible level of official obstruction. While it is necessary to maintain core legal protection to safeguard the basic rights of privacy of the law abiding citizen, equally, the potential for the criminal to abuse such provisions must be cut down to the absolute minimum. Any reasonable assessment of section 3 of the Bill clearly shows that the proposals in this regard are certain to result in shifting the advantage in favour of the gardaíin their battle against drug abuse.

Section 4 refines our current legal provisions in the Customs and Excise Act. Since the vast majority of illegal drugs are brought into this country, the Customs and Excise service provides a first line of defence against drugs. Therefore, we must take every opportunity to strengthen these services both in terms of resources and supporting legal provisions. In spite of our fervent desire to tackle the problem of drug abuse effectively and without compromise, it is vital to retain full respect for the rights of the individual. The operating principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty must not be lost sight of in the pursuit of solving crime. In particular, it is important that the proceedings after arrest be both fair and prompt.

Part II of the proposed legislation addresses such needs in a comprehensive manner. If adopted, I have no doubt that these provisions will help to maintain full respect for the rights of the accused while, at the same time, enabling the legal system to vigorously pursue genunie abuse. Because of the increasing level of drug related crime it is vital that the Government fully supports this Bill. The fact that the overall performance of the current Administration, to date, has been totally inadequate may allow those of us in Opposition frequent opportunities to indulge in simple political point scoring. There is little merit in adopting such a response to the Government's failures, however, since the needs of the vast majority of law abiding citizens are far more important.

We have a grave responsibility to the victims of crime, many of whom strongly assert that nobody can have a real insight into the evil of personal assaults unless one becomes the victim of such behaviour. It is very difficult to argue with such sentiments. It goes without saying that we must make every effort to assist the victims of crime in a practical and effective way. Legal improvements such as those proposed in the Bill are valuable since their application will lead to reduced levels of drug abuse and, consequently, a reduction in drug related crime.

I wish to refer to the Government's unfair criticism of this side of the House and of Deputy O'Donoghue in particular. The week before last, the Minister, Deputy Owen, used terms like "he does not seem to understand" in relation to matters we were pursuing on a Private Notice Question. In fact, Deputy O'Donoghue has been very responsible, and all the legislation introduced either by the Government or by him, as the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Justice, has been widely welcomed in the community as a real and genuine attempt to deal with the problem. We have supported the Government and have assisted it in a constructive and positive way. The Minister for Justice is a very nice person but, unfortunately, she represents an Administration that has run away from its responsibilities.

Last year the Finance and General Affairs Committee discussed the Estimates for the Office of Public Works. The Minister of State, Deputy Coveney, was questioned by myself and other Members who were critical of the decision not to proceed with the building of Castlerea prison and the women's prison at Mountjoy. On that occasion the Minister's response was that, because of the peace process, we would not need the additional space. If ever there was a cop out by a Government in relation to its responsibilities this was it. It should have admitted at the time that it was cutting back because of financial problems. It should not have tried to hoodwink people with that kind of response. Last week the Minister told the House that things had changed and we got a high powered press conference announcing that the building of the Castlerea prison would proceed. The Government's delay was because, of course, it had to do research.

We never said we had all the answers. There are no easy solutions to these problems but we must all face up to our responsibilities. The evidence is there for all to see. When in Government we brought in legislation and agreed to build additional prison spaces. That, however, is not the only answer because such problems have to be tackled on different fronts. We cannot lock everybody up.

Over 600 people were released from prison in Cork last year but what happened to them when they came out? What back-up services are being provided for them? What hope have they in the community? We have fallen down in these areas. Unless we address these issues we will have more and more drug barons, more and more youngsters taking drugs and more and more people ending up in prison.

In Cork last week a court application for the renewal of a licensed premises was refused by the Garda Síochána. I welcomed that and so did the people in Cork. They saw, perhaps for the first time, that a proper approach was being taken towards known drug offenders and drug barons who were using a certain premises for their business. Gardaí had the building under observation and saw a young boy of 16 being carried out of it and laid on the ground by the proprietor or one of his staff. Tough decisions have to be taken.

In conclusion, I commend Deputy O'Donoghue for his excellent proposals and his hard work to enhance our criminal law. While he might be excused for contenting himself with pointing out the failings of the Government in this area, he has instead shown great commitment to his brief by drafting a succession of Bills designed to improve the security and safety of citizens. I sincerely hope the Minister, Deputy Owen, will generously adopt Deputy O'Donoghue's many excellent suggestions.

Current crime levels are simply unacceptable and all sides of this House must clearly demonstrate a united determination to tackle wrongdoers in our communities. Clear messages must go out from the Oireachtas. Decent law abiding citizens must be given clear evidence of a new confidence that crime, particularly violent crime, will be successfully detected and decisively punished. Citizens deserve nothing less from the Legislature. Those with criminal leanings must be left in no doubt that we are making every effort to remove all legal loop-holes which facilitate them in the pursuit of crime and the avoidance of justice. Furthermore, the State must make every resource available to put an end to such illicit activities.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Frances Fitzgerald.

I am sure that is satisfactory. Agreed.

I find it incredible listening to some of the Fianna Fáil speakers talking about our serious crime problem as if it were something that sprang up over the past year. They fail to recognise this has been festering for a great number of years. It is the direct result of failed Government policies and the neglect of many important issues which has been perpetrated by successive Governments. It is rich to hear their sudden concern about this issue. There is no doubt that we are facing a crime crisis at the moment but it is something that has been inherited from previous Governments. This Government is now faced with tackling this issue when it is at crisis point.

I am glad of the opportunity to speak in this debate because, as a Dublin Deputy, I realise that the drugs and crime are critical problems. The Garda Síochána estimates that 80 per cent of crime in Dublin is directly related to drugs but this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Over the last decade we have seen the welcome development of local groups actively participating in the management of their own areas. Under the social housing programme, local authorities are mandated to involve tenants in the wider issues of estate management. While there has been a slow start on that I look forward to estate management being further developed in future. In addition, many community, women's and single issue groups have played a huge role in revitalising community life in some of our most economically deprived areas. These positive developments are, however, being seriously undermined by the increase in drug related crime and by those who profit from it.

I recently attended a meeting in my constituency at which the main item on the agenda was the level of intimidation local people were enduring at the hands of drug pushers. I am pleased we are having this debate because the issue at stake is enormous. I commend the Minister for not advocating the complete rejection of this Bill. I welcome her announcement that the Government will soon publish the Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill which will take precedence over this one. Any meaningful response to the drugs problem must be multifaceted and, as it will transcend existing administrative arrangements, it must be initiated and pursued vigorously by the Government.

The bulk of the measures advocated in Deputy O'Donoghue's Bill were outlined by the Minister when she announced her proposals last July. The proposed seven day detention for drug traffickers and giving power to Garda superintendents to issue search warrants will be dealt with. It would appear that a working agreement between the Garda and Customs and Excise officers has been reached.

Concern about delay in bringing drug cases to trial is understandable. The appointment of 15 new judges should go some way towards solving that problem as will the Minister's announcement that the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, the purpose of which is to limit the amount of time spent by gardaí in court, will be brought to Government within two months. Much Garda time is wasted hanging around courtrooms waiting for cases to be called and the Bill will result in them having extra time to engage in more productive duties.

The media and Opposition have enjoyed talking-up a crime crisis. While there has been considerable exaggeration, the public are living in fear. In urban areas this fear is not necessarily related to the number of murders but the prevalence of petty crime, such as muggings, car break-ins, bag snatching and burglary. The majority of us will not have known a murder victim but we all know someone who has been affected by crime. In Dublin much of the crime is heroin related. Try as we might we will not succeed in controlling it by introducing criminal justice measures alone. It is important to remember that the supply of hard drugs is cyclical. If those controlling the current drugs supply were removed, others would take their place. Drugs damage young people's lives and our response must be a broad one touching on health, education and policing issues rather than an isolated criminal justice one. While it may be difficult to determine an appropriate crossdepartmental response we must do so.

I welcome the announcement in the budget of further increases in funds for schools in disadvantaged areas. It is a sincere effort to tackle educational disadvantage which leads to social exclusion where the drugs culture thrives so easily. Young people who find it difficult to foresee a future for themselves are easy targets for the purveyors of death. Policy in the education field should concentrate not only on making teenagers aware of the dangers of taking drugs but on self-development and self-esteem.

It is vital to expand existing treatment facilities. The Eastern Health Board has made some progress in this area by seting up satellite clinics. Progress is far too slow and there are long waiting lists for all treatment centres. The Minister's commitment to create a drug free unit in Mountjoy Prison is welcome in light of the visiting committee's recent report. On the face of it, it appears ludicrous that a drug free unit should be established in a prison but the problem is so bad there that such a facility is needed. The provision of extra prison spaces is welcome.

We have made a start on developing a cohesive response to the crime problem but much remains to be done. While I understand the concern of rural Deputies about the recent horrific incidents in rural communities, the figures published in one of the weekend newspapers indicate that the crime problem remains fundamentally an urban one. In particular, it is Dublin based and inextricably linked with drugs. If we are serious about solving the problem, we must deal with most issues in tandem.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and am pleased the Minister has accepted the Bill in principle. The Government is committed to bringing forward legislation and some of the points raised in this useful legislation, for which I commend Deputy O'Donoghue, will be taken on board.

Previous speakers dealt with the need to enshrine in legislation matters contained in the Bill. In the time afforded to me I will deal with the issue of bail which is fundamentally linked to the drugs problem. There has been much debate, conducted in a less than satisfactory manner in the media, on changing the laws relating to bail. We have heard sound byte politics from far too many spokespersons. I was appalled recently to hear a representative of a rural organisation that has been to the fore in putting forward proposals to combat the escalation of rural crime state that it was time to change the bail laws; they were unsatisfactory because convicted criminals were roaming the countryside while on bail. Much of the debate has been misunderstood. We have not focused sufficiently on the nature of our law relating to bail and why we have such a bail regime.

No person who has been recently convicted of an offence and sentenced to a term of imprisonment has been released on bail. Bail is a form of remand until the trial takes place. It is a fundamental right rather than a privilege. Against the background of daily calls for immediate change it must be remembered that bail is a fundamental constitutional right, not something that may be granted, withdrawn or revoked at the whim of a Garda officer in a District or Circuit Court. It goes to the heart of our criminal justice system and represents a basic pillar of justice — the right of innocence until proven guilty by a court of law.

If you start from that premise a number of points must be recognised and accepted in the Ireland of 1996 for which to legislate. It must be recognised and considered unsatisfactory that we have the most liberal bail regime in western Europe and that approximately 4,500 crimes per year can be committed by those released on bail pending trial. Both issues weaken confidence in the criminal justice system. While it is appropriate and necessary to change our bail laws, it would be absurd for the State not to restrict the freedom of dangerous persons who put life and property at risk.

The courts should have a measure of discretion in the matter of bail. To enable such discretion it appears a constitutional referendum is necessary. People in certain quarters are taking for granted the result of such a referendum, but they should not do so. The Government should decide on the legislation consequent on a referendum gaining the approval of the people. Changes to our bail laws must be clearly and narrowly defined. Perhaps consideration should be given to dealing with cases where an accused is caught red-handed and is deemed likely to strike again before trial and where an accused might avail of the opportunity to dispose of the proceeds of crime if free to do so. Perhaps where an accused jumped bail before consideration should also be given to refusing an application for bail on a second occasion.

Changes in our bail laws must not interfere with the fundamental liberties of the individual. In this regard I have two major reservations, and I ask that they be clearly addressed by Government before changes in the law are even contemplated. The first relates to delays. The unacceptable delays in our courts are contrary to a reasonable criminal justice system. The need to proceed speedily to trial is essential. Current delays between the time of arrest and charge and the actual trial are totally unacceptable. They militate against an efficient and fair administration of justice. Delays very from urban areas to provincial centres, ranging from six months to two years. Such delays are unacceptable. They must be minimised by the introduction of acceptable timeframes having regard to the circumstances of the case.

The decision of the Minister for Justice to proceed with the enactment of the Courts and Court Officers Bill and the appointment of extra judges will go some way towards remedying the problem, but it is important that the Garda Síochána plays a role in ensuring there is no delay in the collating of documents that ultimately form the book of evidence served on the accused. The preparation of witnesses for an early and speedy trial is essential. Changes in our bail laws that are not pre-addressed in terms of delays would be fundamentally wrong.

My second reservation relates to the lack of a special remand centre. If bail is to be revoked regularly a specific place of remand would be necessary. The absence of such a facility would make the revocation of bail unworkable. The present shortage of prison spaces is well documented. Restrictions on bail would result in people being detained before trial, and the need for a remand centre has not been considered. Such a centre will have to be established as a separate arm of the prison system. It is unjust to treat the innocent — people are innocent of a crime for which they are charged until they are tried for the crime — in the same manner and circumstances as those already convicted for offences and those detained in prison for serious offences. That matter has not been addressed. Comprehensive assurances are absolutely essential in the interest of natural justice.

How many people are likely to be detained before trial? What will that represent in terms of cost to the State? The wrangle over prison spaces has given rise to circumstances where 25 prisoners will be detained in Castlerea. Over a period of 18 months an extra 278 prison spaces are to be provided. That is not a huge number, bearing in mind the comments of the Garda and prison officers associations that 1,000 extra prison spaces are needed to deal adequately with early release, temporary release and what has become known as the revolving door system within our prisons.

In the context of extra prison spaces what will happen the person who is remanded in custody having been refused bail? The promised change in our bail laws should take place alongside what I hope will be fundamental, root and branch reform of our prison system. As constituted and operated at present, prisons are no more than recycling centres where people are in and out as though they are on a conveyor belt. We must consider whether prisons will be places of punishment. Will there be an independent prison inspectorate, which I have sought for some time? Will the concept of prison visiting committees be changed? Will there be a special parole board? All these issues must be addressed by the Minister for Justice as a matter of urgency. Unfortunately they have not been considered adequately in the context of the sound byte, knee-jerk reaction we hear on the news, "Prime Time" and "The Gay Byrne Show". The politics of the sound byte has done little to make a positive contribution to our penal justice system.

The position in Britain and the United States is well known. In many inner cities in the United States one adult male in four spends time in prison. Is that the type of society we want, where we pick people off the streets in an attempt to contain the response to crime rather than find the solution to our crime problems? The treatment, education and welfare of our prisoners while detained are also in need of radical reform.

I am pleased the issue of bail appears to be high on the Government agenda, but I counsel caution in so far as the principle of innocent until proven guilty is a basis on which our criminal justice system is founded. In certain cases the operation of bail is no longer in the best interests of society. However if changes are to be made to people's fundamental rights they must be done only in the most exceptional circumstances.

I am pleased this Bill is being accepted. I look forward to the response of the Minister for Justice by way of her own legislation which, I understand, will be published in a matter of weeks. I hope the Government will take on board some of the very laudable suggestions and proposals put forward by Deputy O'Donoghue. Having been in this House for nine years, I believe that if we are to formulate the best legislation we must take on board proposals other than from the Government side. That would be a positive and healthy practice and would be an indication that legislators make a contribution to the enactment of legislation rather than simply act as a rubber stamp for Government proposals and legislation, which has been the case for too long.

I commend Deputy O'Donoghue for his work not only in this area but in a wide range of areas in recent months. He has shown there is a constructive side to opposition. He has not behaved himself on all occasions, but he has been prepared to play the political card when he felt it necessary. This Bill is important and I look forward to discussing it in detail on Committee Stage.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. As Deputy O'Donoghue said, good suggestions come from all sides of the House. It is important to take a constructive approach to this matter. I agree with the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, that we should seek as broad a consensus as possible when introducing measures to deal with the current crime and drugs problem and that we should avoid futile divisiveness.

My thoughts are with the many families who have been through horrific times. We must always try to keep the needs and the plight of victims in our thoughts. However, it is clear there has been an institutionalised paralysis in the justice system, the prison system, the courts and in our approach to juvenile crime. I spent most of the day visiting secure units in Trinity House which keep 30 young people between the ages of 12 and 16. It is appalling that we have neglected to address the problem of juvenile crime. I welcome the steps which the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Deputy Currie, is taking to introduce juvenile justice legislation. This is important because crime begins at a young age. Crime statistics show that it is mostly men aged about 25 who commit crimes. An article in yesterday's edition of The Irish Times showed that the statistics decrease for people over 35. It is critical that we do something at an early stage. We must have proper juvenile justice legislation.

There are problems and, perhaps, constitutional difficulties with this Bill as proposed. It is important that we meet our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights. If we want to extend periods of detention, practical safeguards must be built in. I look forward to seeing the balance between those rights in the Government's Bill when it is published. It is important to have a reasoned and balanced debate in the House on this issue given the fundamental freedoms and human rights involved. There may be scope for looking at our bail laws. As Deputy Flanagan said, we must get the balance right.

The introduction of this Bill and the Government's legislation is only part of what is needed to tackle the drugs and crime problems. Some 40 per cent of the prison population at any one time has a background of drug abuse. Recent figures show that the number of cases of HIV infection detected in this county is almost 1,600 and that many people contracted the virus through intravenous drug abuse. We must reduce the supply and demand of drugs. It is an international and a national problem which must be tackled on a multi-agency basis. Departments and agencies must play their part in seeking a solution through close co-operation and co-ordination of policies and strategies. This has not happened in recent years. Agencies, whether the Garda, Customs and Excise, health boards or local communities must work together. The Merchants Quay project, for example, offers counselling, care, respite and training to people at all stages of the drug using cycle, including stabilising, detoxification and drug free programmes.

The report of the expert group on a protocol for the prescribing of methadone which the National AIDS Strategy Committee published three years ago raises important issues in tackling crime. Progress must be made in implementing the recommendations in that report. We must offer treatment and alternatives to heroin addicts. Muggings have increased in Dublin because drug addicts need to get money to feed their habit. Can the health boards deliver the type of community care clinic services, outreach networks and support to GPs which are necessary to implement the types of programmes we need? At present there is a gridlock which prevents action and this must be broken. Community clinics must be established despite the difficulties. GPs must get support so that more of them can offer treatment to drug addicts. It is not good enough that there is such a small number of GPs treating heroin addicts. This needs political will and a practical support. This is an important step towards tackling the problems which Deputy O'Donoghue's Bill seeks to address. We must learn from other countries which do research in this area.

As the Minister for Health said earlier this year, drug addicts are difficult people. They wreck their own lives and their families and they create havoc, yet in a civilised society appropriate care must be available to them to meet their needs. I congratulate the Minister for Justice on her co-ordinated plan and I look forward to the Bill she will shortly present in the House.

(Wexford): I wish to share my time with Deputies Gregory, Flood and Callely.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

(Wexford): I pay tribute to Deputy O'Donoghue for introducing this Bill. Over the past number of months he has brought many Bills to the House. This highlights the neglect by the Department of Justice in dealing with crime, drugs and other problems. Deputy O'Donoghue is regarded by the public as the Minister for Justice on the Opposition benches, without the salary or the backup services enjoyed by the Minister.

I agree with Deputy Flanagan who said it is good that Deputies highlight serious problems, particularly in relation to drugs. The drugs problem has been out of control in Dublin for many years, but it has now spread to towns and villages throughout the country. Drug-related crime has been identified as being responsible for 80 per cent of all indictable offences. In the first six months of 1995 gardaí made 2,385 drug seizures. This represents a 10 per cent increase on the same period in 1994. Many of the largest drug seizures took place at Rosslare Harbour. I pay tribute to the Customs and Excise and to the Garda in Wexford for their efforts in this regard. However, these seizures are only the tip of the iceberg.

It is recognised that Ireland is a major location for drug traffickers who want to sell drugs on mainland Europe. The Minister must take action in this regard. It is practically impossible for a country with thousands of miles of coastline to stop drugs coming in on ships. It is important to seek adequate EU funding. We have heard a lot about the Taoiseach having talks with Mr. John Major and other EU partners in Brussels to secure funds for this area. I understand the Minister for Justice was also involved. We must press for as much EU funding as possible to prevent illegal drug trafficking along our coastline.

The powers available to the Garda to deal with drug traffickers are wholly inadequate. Despite repeated announcements by the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, of proposals to extend those powers, nothing has happened. The delay in introducing worthwhile legislation to deal with drug pushers has provided a financial killing for drug barons. Happy in the knowledge that our inadequate laws make them practically untouchable, they continue to make millions of pounds while causing severe damage to young people's physical and mental health and, in some cases, death.

I, and I am sure, other Members meet constituents who express concern about the effects of drugs on their children. Drugs seem to be freely available on our streets, in disco halls and in public places where they are blatantly pushed and peddled to young people and action is not taken against the pushers. Parents call for drastic measures to deal with drug barons and pushers who ply their trade so freely throughout the country. The public lack confidence in a system which allows known drug barons to display their ill-gotten gains without fear of the law.

It baffles me that in practically every town and village the public and the media openly name people involved in drug racketeering, but action cannot be taken against them. If a person who is working signs on for social welfare benefit and is caught, the social welfare officer will be on his back. The Revenue Commissioners put pressure on people within weeks of setting up a small business to declare their interests. Yet many drug barons and pushers claim social welfare benefit, live in up-market houses and may own two or three houses which they rent out, but no action is taken against them. Social welfare officers and the Revenue Commissioners could play a greater role in pressuring people they suspect are making money from illegal operations. The Minister for Social Welfare and the Minister for Finance should take a deeper interest in this area. People in Wexford can name drug pushers to me but it appears the gardaí cannot touch them. The problems posed by pushers should be dealt with as quickly as possible.

There seems to be a distinct lack of co-ordination and co-operation between the Garda and Customs and Excise officials in tackling the drugs problem. The work should be co-ordinated.

The Department of Health has a major role to play in highlighting problems associated with drugs. I was pleased to hear today that the Southern Health Board intends to introduce a major package to highlight and to deal with the drugs problem. Members and officials of health boards are not sufficiently aware of and do not adequately highlight the dangers posed to young people by drug abuse. The Minister for Health must put pressure on health boards and health agencies to become more aware and to deal more comprehensively with drug abuse.

The Department of Education has a significant role to play in highlighting problems associated with drugs. The dangers posed to our young people by the widespread use of illegal drugs requires the Department to consider how best, young people from the time they set foot in primary school, can be educated about the dangers posed by drug abuse. There is no point in highlighting them at second or third level. The Minister for Education in conjunction with the three powerful teachers unions, who have an effective voice, should negotiate the introduction to schools of a programme designed to deglamourise the drugs scene and which would highlight the dangers posed by drug abuse and the serious effect it may have on young people's lives during their school years and later.

Deputy O'Donoghue's appropriate Bill calls for distinct co-operation and co-ordination between Government agencies to tackle the drugs problem. It will not simply disappear. I do not attribute all the blame to the Minister or any other individual. It is a wider issue that must be dealt with by the public and concerned people in the community. Teachers, the clergy, youth organisations, youth clubs and those involved in GAA, soccer and rugby clubs who play a prominent role in doing much good for young people must pull together to deal with this problem by highlighting the dangers associated with drugs.

The Minister must without further delay introduce the legislation she promised last July. In the eight months since then she has had adequate time to introduce a Bill to deal with the drugs problem. As she did not, it is appropriate that the Opposition spokesperson should do so. Deputy O'Donoghue has given us an opportunity to raise our fears and concerns and highlight problems relating to drug abuse. We are not highlighting those problems for the sake of highlighting them. It is important to get across the message to our young people that involvement in drugs is dangerous.

Drug barons, pushers and dealers who supply young people with drugs are directly responsible for murder. In the past year many young people have died from overdoses of ecstasy. The drug barons and pushers are directly responsible. When charged before our courts for drug offences, they should be charged with murder when it is proved they have sold drugs that caused death and if convicted, they should be given life sentences. Many of my constituents who have faced the ordeal of having their children abuse drugs call for the death penalty for drug pushers, and who can blame them. Young people have died, or have been physically and mentally damaged by drug abuse while the drug barons and pushers get off scotfree. That is not good enough. There is too much thought and concern for the rights of the criminal here and very little for the rights of the victims of crime.

I hope the Minister will incorporate many of the fine provisions of this Bill in hers and have them implemented without further delay. It is not good enough for the Minister to say she will introduce her Bill shortly. Within any Government Department certain issues must receive priority. Surely the difficulties presented by drugs, addicts and drug-related issues must be at the top of any Government agenda.

I support the general thrust of this Bill and hope Deputy O'Donoghue will have prompted the Minister to introduce her Bill without further delay.

I thank Deputy O'Donoghue on having allowed me some time to make a few comments on his Bill.

Having listened to many Members discuss this issue, very much at the forefront of the public mind at present, bearing in mind events over recent weeks, when politicians were castigated for not having appeared on a television programme, it is interesting to note that while this debate takes place, no member of the media is present. Tomorrow I will be interested to see how much coverage this debate receives in the press, whether journalists will act responsibly and convey to the electorate the viewpoints and active involvement of Members in their efforts to combat the very serious crime levels obtaining in a responsible, effective manner. Their absence this evening would seem to bear out their lack of interest.

As most Members will know, I have a specific interest in the drugs problem. I compliment Deputy O'Donoghue on having obtained the appropriate advice to help him formulate this Bill within a short time.

While attention is being focused on the need for new legislative measures, even to the extent of constitutional change, while everybody calls for action, we can lose sight of a very important matter which has concerned me much in recent weeks. Despite long delays in bringing people charged by the Garda before our courts, despite all the shortcomings in our bail laws, the lack of resources available to the Garda, from next week, a significant number of heroin dealers will appear before our courts — one a drugs baron, the remainder in the middle range of activity vis-à-vis heroin. Despite all these factors, very few, a handful only, have appeared before our courts over the past ten years. In ensuing months I predict that up to a dozen — within my constituency I predict up to six — such individuals will appear before our courts, some having already pleaded guilty and facing trial. While not wanting to predict the outcome of such hearings, on the basis of the relevant evidence, the likelihood is they will be found guilty.

I was a Member of this House in 1984 when the Misuse of Drugs Bill was passed. It included a provision rarely referred to, imprisonment for life, in the case of drug dealers found guilty. Yet no drug dealer in this State has been imprisoned for life. Practically all Members of the House — repeated by the media and others — contend that 80 per cent of violent crime in our cities is drug-related, huge State resources are directed at detecting these people, thousands of young addicts are seeking treatment and many not obtaining it and many other young people dying but no drug dealer has yet been imprisoned for life. We already have the requisite power available to us, to be administered by our courts and Judiciary, to deal with these people when eventually caught.

In the past I witnessed heroin dealers eventually appearing before the courts — not addicts but dealers in heroin who manipulate young people, derive profits therefrom, directly responsible for the crime wave and horrors about which so many people are fearful — receiving sentences less than half those handed down in the case of people caught in possession of cannabis.

I do not seek to influence the Judiciary in any way — I am not naming people specifically so I hope I am not out of order in my comments — but, if such people are not subjected to the full rigours of the law, a huge opportunity will have been missed. I would go so far as to say it will send out a message that, despite all the media hype and the Government contending this is its highest priority, people when caught, can get away with the crime with which they are charged.

I have sufficient time to put across one simple message only which is that it will be absolutely disastrous, in our fight against crime, the drugs menace and barons here, if those who appear before our courts in coming months and plead guilty to the distribution of heroin in this city get off with light sentences. In that event we can forget about our bail laws, about this fine Bill, about the Minister's package and, instead, throw our hats at it. Despite the absence of the media, those charged with informing the electorate of what is being debated here, I hope the Judiciary on whom that onerous responsibility will rest in coming months will pay attention to what is said here. When members of the Judiciary are faced with a heroin dealer who has been found guilty, I hope they will connect that heroin dealer with the huge, dreadful, horrific drug scene that is gripping the country, particularly Dublin, and destroying so many young lives.

Debate adjourned.
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