Vol. 461 No. 7
35 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for Education the arrangements, if any, that are in place to ensure that there is proper liaison between boards of management of primary schools and her Department to ensure an adequate number of places are available for pupils in the immediate catchment area. [3718/96]
While the enrolment policy for primary schools is a matter for the board of management of each school, schools will cater for their immediate areas in the first instance. If, after that, places remain available, schools may enrol pupils from outside their areas should there be a demand. Where more than one school caters for an area or parish, it is expected that such schools will liaise to ensure that all pupils can be accommodated.
There are over 3,200 primary schools in the State. Individual schools alert my Department where the question of the provision of additional accommodation arises or alternative arrangements need to be made to accommodate pupils.
My Department liaises with local authorities and school patrons, particularly in large urban areas where major housing developments may lead to the need to provide new schools or extensions to existing schools.
I have announced the setting up of a Commission on School Accommodation Needs, as proposed in the White Paper on Education. This commission, which will commence operation shortly, will provide detailed information on current and projected positions in relation to school provision as part of its remit.
Has the Minister told us that nobody had responsibility for planning and there was no direct liaison between the Department of Education and boards of management? Such a lack of liaison has led to a position in Carysfort national school, of which the Minister may be aware. In that school 80 students, of whom 46 were eligible for enrolment as they came from the immediate catchment area, had to be turned away. Is it the case that unless a board of management approached the Department of Education the Department did not have a role in planning for the provision of school places? That is an extraordinary way for the Department to behave. A commission is not needed as the Department should be responsible for forward planning for the schooling of our children. Will the Minister accept that there is an onus on the Department to liaise directly with boards of management to ascertain what will happen in the future? The Department should ascertain if members of those boards are aware of what is happening in their catchment areas and if it is likely that a particular school will be overcrowded. I have given an example of overcrowding in a school in my constituency, which is typical of the position in many primary schools. In that case there did not appear to be a process whereby the board of management of that school could liaise with the Department of Education or vice versa. That situation cannot continue, irrespective of whether a commission is set up to review the availability of school places.
The Deputy will be aware that the ownership of these schools does not lie with the Department of Education but with the school patrons. To date planning for the provision of school places has been undertaken in partnership. A total of 3,200 primary schools operate under the Department. In general, as the boards of management of those schools plan for the provision of school places and the need of their catchment area they put forward their proposals to the Department, although that did not happen in the case to which the Deputy Keogh referred. Sometimes their needs are resolved by the short-term provision of prefabs or the sharing of accommodation between schools in a neighbourhood. In some cases a new school or an extension may be required.
I wish to refer to a trend in the Dublin area. Some Deputies who were members of local authorities opposed some development plans when they were drawn up. An Bord Pleanála stated that a school development was required because schools in the area were already full. It is ironic that a person who opposed that development finds herself in Marlborough Street and realises the need for that particular school development as the other schools in the area are full. Local authorities grant permission for major developments. The provision of school places is as important as the provision of water, sewerage and traffic lights.
Given that the population in primary schools is falling dramatically and excess accommodation will be available, there are other needs for education property. It is timely that the proposed commission should address the provision of places given our demographic trends. Our system is being managed to address those demographic changes.
Did I understand the Minister to say that nobody in the Department of Education has responsibility to establish the capital expenditure needed for primary schools in the light of emerging trends or to approach local authorities or boards of management of schools? Is there nobody in that Department with responsibility to determine what will happen in the future and whether in the short or long-term additional school accommodation will be needed in particular areas? It is amazing that nobody has that responsibility in a Department with such a large budget and that it is necessary to establish a commission to determine what will happen in the future. Will the Minister agree that some unit in the Department should have responsibility for forward planning?
The Deputy should not get too upset. The points she raised will be dealt by the proposed commission under its terms of reference.
What about the Department of Education?
There are so many proposed commissions in the White Paper that we will be waiting until the end of the century before they are set up.
That is how we plan for the future. We do not plan without reference to our partners. Planning for school places is done on a partnership basis with those who own the school buildings. There is a responsibility on the Department to respond to requests for additional accommodation, but there is also a responsibility on the Department to ensure that because the primary school population is dramatically declining it does not invest in large buildings that will not be needed, especially in areas of low population. The proper approach is to assign planning to a group which will take an overall view of the position. Education boards will have a particular role to respond to regional needs. As I suggested, the Department should be decentralised to deal adequately with the daily needs of our 3,200 primary schools. Deputy Keogh implied with great indignation that the Department should know how many children are in our primary schools. However, it is not possible to plan properly for that.
The Minister has admitted to gross incompetence. There is nothing implausible about that.
The proposals for the education boards will be brought forward and they will have a responsibility for planning provisions for their regions. One of the tasks of the proposed commission, which is about to commence its business, will be the proper planning of school accommodation into the next century.
This is not for the first time today we have had a clear illustration of the need for a serious review of management structures within the Department of Education. The Minister admitted to gross incompetence in the manner in which the Department does its business. The Minister's suggestion that somehow local authorities are responsible for the delay in proceeding with the construction of school buildings is outrageous. The experience of Members is that local authorities have been amenable to the provision of sites and that such delays are occasioned by her Department.
The object of the commission the Minister mentioned appears to be the closure of schools, particularly in rural areas, whereas a proper planning system should be devised for accommodating children in primary schools, their basic constitutional right. It is extraordinary that the Minister suggests that no such system exists, that she has no role to play in the provision of primary school places or for the proper transfer of primary pupils into second-level. As recently as last week I raised on the Adjournment another incident in Cork last year. It appears to me the Minister is waiting for disasters to happen, after which she will announce the establishment of commissions or review procedures, that we must all await their conclusions and, in the meantime, cannot ask any questions.
Was that a lecture?
I presume Deputy Michael McDowell tabled this question because of the serious pupil-school position in Dublin South-East. It seems very strange that her Department is not investigating demographic changes as a huge number of families have moved into our constituency on both sides of the Grand Canal and constituents approach us saying they cannot obtain places for their children in local schools because they are all full. Last week I was approached by a group of residents who wanted to set up their own school and were endeavouring to find a suitable premises. Yesterday I received a letter from Charlemont Community Association informing me of the closure of St. Kevin's School, Grattan Street.
We must proceed by way of question.
I am giving an explanation.
Deputy, it is not time for explanations.
It is relevant to the question tabled by Deputy Michael McDowell because I assume he is experiencing the same frustration as I am. Surely the Minister's Department asks school authorities whether there is a huge demand for places in their school and, if so, how we can help to relieve it? I warn the Minister that the position will become worse as greater numbers of people move into areas both sides of the Grand Canal. I hope as a result of the wonderful policy document launched yesterday on Georgian Dublin, that more families will move into the area——
That will not get planning permission for the Deputy's school.
If we rather than the Department had been allowed to design the school we would have obtained planning permission.
Is the Minister admitting that no unit or individual within her Department is responsible for advance planning in the provision of school places? Does she also admit that no one within her Department is aware of new housing developments that may comprise new catchment areas or lead to extra student requirements within them; that nobody within her Department has any idea of what will happen in future despite the fact that the Department provides the requisite capital for new buildings or extension of existing ones? Is the Minister telling us that within her Department nobody has that responsibility, that she is now establishing a commission? She is talking about never, never land, about the future rather than the immediate needs of children already in school or those who cannot gain admission at this time? Is the Minister admitting that nobody in her Department is charged with the responsibility of planning for our children's education?
There is a most competent planning section within my Department which liaises with owners/patrons of schools. I must repeat — and I cannot read Deputy Michael McDowell's mind, perhaps Deputy Keogh can — that there has been much rezoning of land throughout County Dublin in addition to migratory movements within the Grand Canal region and that local authorities and councillors can give permission for large scale development within those areas wheneyer existing schools are full. I must stress that because lack of such permission caused the problem. We do liaise with local authorities — who were told at the time that schools were full — that, if and when permission is sought for that size of development, the needs of those children growing up in such areas would have to be met, which condition was dismissed in the most cavalier fashion. I must point out that, on my assuming office many years later I discovered there were no school places for four-year-old children in need of them in local parishes. Of course, we can all use our local experiences as examples but my Department investigates problems, liaising with our planning section and the patrons and owners of schools, when we may agree to extensions, new buildings, the erection of pre-fabs or sharing with other schools within the area. That is how school accommodation needs have been dealt with. I must repeat that huge demographic changes are taking place and, knowing what will happen, it is only right and proper that we plan for future needs. That does not mean, as Deputy Martin appears to think, my Department will rationalise schools out of existence. This is the year of life long learning——
The Minister cut the grants.
——and, if there is a reduction in the number of primary school pupils, excellent opportunities exist for extending life long learning to communities where appropriate buildings already exist.
Since neither Deputy Eoin Ryan nor I can read Deputy Michael McDowell's mind, if Deputy Ryan has a specific case in mind if he will furnish me with details, I will liaise with him. I hope the multi-denominational school in Ranelagh, which I sanctioned approximately two years ago, will soon open.
Do not we all?
