Vol. 463 No. 7
8 Mr. J. Walsh asked the Minister for Social Welfare the current status of discussions regarding the EU Poverty 4 programme; the plans, if any, he has to meet with EU Social Affairs Ministers during the Italian Presidency of the EU to discuss the major poverty programme; and the further plans, if any, he has to achieve the commencement of the Poverty 4 programme prior to, or during, the forthcoming Irish Presidency. [7301/96]
The position in relation to the proposed Poverty 4 programme remains largely unchanged since my reply to the Deputy's previous question on 23 January 1996, question No. 22, reported at columns 262 to 265 of the Official Report.
The present position is that, while technically still blocked at Council, the Poverty 4 programme is effectively dead, politically, with little if any prospect of resurrection. Unanimous support for the programme simply does not exist and, as matters stand, there is no reasonable prospect of progress being made on this issue. The German and UK Governments have, as the Deputy knows, objected to the programme and have maintained this objection.
All efforts by other member states, including personal interventions by me on behalf of the Irish Government, together with the best efforts of the Commission, have not succeeded in changing their opposition.
It is now a question of new approaches being developed, approaches which we can push for, but which can become a reality without the unanimous support of the other EU Social Affairs Ministers being obtained.
At the meeting of the Social Affairs Council last Friday, I indicated the need for action in relation to social exclusion both at national and EU level and indicated that it is an issue I intend raising during Ireland's Presidency later this year. I was supported by a number of other Ministers at the meeting on the need to find ways of ensuring that social exclusion remains a central concern of EU policy and programmes.
At the same meeting, in responding to the presentations by Ministers on the preparation of a communication from the Commission in relation to social protection. Commissioner Flynn indicated that he would be giving consideration to upgrading the social exclusion element of that document. Thus, I have placed on the record with the other Ministers in Europe, my intention of raising the issue of social exclusion during Ireland's Presidency.
In relation to other specific measures to be taken during Ireland's Presidency, I will seek to further the debate regarding social exclusion through discussion wherever possible, including at such conferences as the New Directions in Social Welfare Conference which will take place in Dublin Castle in November.
The Deputy may be interested to know that the EU Commission launched, during the final months of 1995, a European Funding Initiative for Projects seeking to overcome Social Exclusion. Under the programme, groups were offered once-off grants in support of innovative projects against social exclusion. Invitations to apply for funding were sent directly from the Commission to interested groups. I understand that a total of nine Irish projects have now received funding under this initiative.
The Minister's defeatist attitude is disappointing. I have tabled many Dáil questions on this matter in an effort to get him to make a comprehensive case for us under the Poverty 4 programme, valued at approximately £100 million with some £10 million earmarked for Ireland. Under previous programmes, particularly Poverty 3, a number of exciting and worthwhile projects were developed. I impressed on the Minister the importance of holding bilateral meetings with his colleagues, particularly the German and UK Ministers with responsibility for social welfare matters. Will he hold such meetings during our Presidency? Surely on a matter of such importance it would be worthwhile for him to travel to the capitals concerned and negotiate professionally with his colleagues on this matter.
The Deputy is wrong to imply that I have adopted a defeatist attitude on this matter. The Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and I made strenuous efforts last year to unblock the Poverty 4 programme at Council level and to seek to overcome the German and British objections. The German Government has two basic and fundamental objections. It objects to money being spent on a further pilot poverty project and argues that, constitutionally, the Poverty 4 programme is outside the remit and competence of the European Union. Germany considers that Article 235 of the Treaty cannot be used to spend money on a programme of action to alleviate poverty which, under the principle of subsidiarity, is regarded as a matter for national governments. There is no question of the Government having a defeatist attitude on this issue. Despite the many steps taken to overcome the objections to the programme, that has not proved possible. We should now seek other ways to ensure that the European Union accepts responsibility for dealing with poverty in Europe, including Ireland. The extent of its responsibility will depend on our success in convincing those who currently object to the Poverty 4 Programme that the European Unions has a responsibility in this area.
I intend to have the matter discussed during the Irish Presidency. I have the support of Commissioner Flynn and Stephen Hughes, the chairperson of the European Parliament's Social Affairs Committee, both of whom I met last week in Brussels, in seeking to put this matter firmly on the agenda. Many members of the Social Affairs Council supported me when I raised the matter at meetings. I also received the support of the high level technical group — on which my Department is represented — which the Commission established to examine the question of social exclusion directly as a result of proposals I made at Council meetings. The only two member states opposed to putting poverty on the agenda as a European Union issue are the British and German Governments. As our diplomatic and negotiating efforts failed to overcome those objections, it makes sense to find another way of dealing with the issue.
Does the Minister intend to bring his colleagues to the parts of Dublin city where there is abject poverty and people living in despair? Perhaps such a visit would be helpful in this regard.
My British and German colleagues — to whom I presume the Deputy is referring — are well aware of the poverty that exists in Europe. Approximately 52 million Europeans are judged to be living below the poverty line. They are aware of the statistics and of the problems that exist in their countries. Unemployment in Germany is at a level which it has not experienced since the end of the Second World War. It is not a question of them not recognising the problem; they object to the European Union having a direct role in dealing with it. The British objection relates primarily to the expenditure of the money. Late last year Commissioner Flynn introduced an initiative which has resulted in nine projects in Ireland dealing with social exclusion receiving money. It is important to remember that while we have not been able to overcome the objections of the German and British Governments about the Poverty 4 Programme we have ensured that the question of poverty in Europe is maintained on the agenda and that action is taken.
