Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 Apr 1996

Vol. 463 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - Beef Industry Crisis: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, mindful of the importance of the beef industry in Ireland and the essential national interest involved, calls on the Government to confront the deep crisis in the industry by achieving a determined practical response at European Union level to the immediate situation and further calls on the Government to restore customer confidence in Irish beef both at home and abroad by taking the required political action necessary to achieve this objective.

We are again discussing the growing crisis within our economy as agriculture accounts for 12.1 per cent of the total number of people at work in our economy and contributed £3,452 million in total output in 1994. Cattle output accounts for 39 per cent, milk and dairy products make up 32 per cent of that output and the dry stock sector represents 70,000 farming families involved in the production of beef and sheep for the home and export markets.

The average family farm income estimated at £9,063, representing a 12 per cent increase on the relevant figure for 1994 and 1993, clearly demonstrates that the family farm income of the main farming systems is indeed varied, with dairy family farm income estimated to be £17,900. When one takes into account the two main cattle systems having an average family farm income of £4,000 per annum, sheep family farm income estimated at £6,000 and the average income of a tillage family farm recorded at £15,000, it becomes quite clear, despite the percentage increase in income, that beef farming, in real terms, still ranks as the lowest family farm income of all farming systems. Yet that sector contributes 39 per cent of our agricultural output.

This means that the largest segment of our agricultural industry, the least profitable, is on the brink of a very serious crisis indeed. We are debating a continuing crisis within the largest economic sector in our economy. In the weeks since the current BSE crisis hit the beef industry we have learned one hard lesson, that the bland assurances offered by the Government at the time have proved no substitute for determined political action. Unfortunately, this is the second occasion within a few weeks that Fianna Fáil had to table a Private Members' motion on the beef industry in its own time. The complacency and inadequacy of the response by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry in our last debate and since underline the need for another urgent debate on the continuous governmental mishandling of the overall problem.

At the outset of this crisis Fianna Fáil sought two preliminary steps to shore up the industry. First, we called for a concerted political campaign at ministerial level in the marketplace where sales of our beef are at risk and, second, a comprehensive response to our domestic consumers, particularly from the Food Advisory Board, to address consumers' concerns.

Government efforts abroad have lagged behind ministerial rhetoric at home. The crux of the problem lies in our markets abroad where six out of every seven of our cattle must be sold. We, the biggest exporter of cattle in the northern hemisphere — almost a month after the announcement in the House of Commons on 20 March last, which rocked consumer confidence in the beef industry not merely within Europe but beyond the parameters of the European Union — await our Minister getting on his bicycle, as was said to me at a farmers' meeting last evening, to talk to those from whom we need to secure contracts.

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry has not gone out to reassure other Governments and buyers in foreign markets, particularly those in the Middle East, which are so important to our export trade. The media is now reporting that the Minister will leave tomorrow on a limited tour. Unfortunately, a manana attitude has typified the approach of Government from the beginning of this crisis, its failure to respond effectively, in a political sense, in those export markets underlines its apathy to the beef industry.

In the past Ministers of this Administration travelled worldwide, with laudable speed, to fight for jobs, properly so, in the case of Irish Steel, Hewlett Packard and Digital; we even witnessed the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs being prepared to lobby in Spain for the soles of shoes for Dubarry. There has been no such response forthcoming in the case of the tens of thousands of people employed in the beef industry.

While the political composition of this Government has a particular bias against farming and agriculture, I remind those parties of the Left in Government that this industry employs some 6,000 in the beef sector, 9,000 in anciallary industries and, quite apart from tax payments, contributed £42.5 million in PRSI contributions last year. On this occasion, leaving aside farmers' interests, it is important for workers that we do not have to listen to Deputy Kathleen Lynch berate the Common Agricultural Policy, which safeguard, I understand, has been arranged by the Government.

The Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment will do so instead.

If Deputy Rabbitte contributes we can look forward to a most informed debate——

Tomorrow evening.

——as he made a career out of ballyragging this industry and is now in a position in which he is asked to defend it. It would be a sick joke if it was not so serious.

There has been no response to the tens of thousands of people involved in the beef industry, apart altogether from the 60,000 to 80,000 farm families in receipt of the average farm income of £4,000 — according to the national farm survey of 1994 — whose livelihoods are at stake. Yet the Government has been tendentious in devising solutions, taking action or even prepared to say it will do the maximum about it.

The fact is that key Ministers have made a career of pillorying an industry it appears they are now very reluctant to support. Fully three weeks after this crisis erupted the Minister for Health finally appeared to announce steps the Food Advisory Board might take in the future. He expressed the view that his Department should be given charge of the food and specialist section of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry; the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment in charge of consumer affairs expressed a similar view earlier. Consumers have real concerns about beef consumption and the Government must respond to them. The ironic thing is that we have a good story to tell but seem unable to communicate it. To date this Government has failed to distil a clear, concerted response to those consumer concerns and procrastination within the Cabinet has inflicted untold damage on the industry.

A serious question mark must be placed over the leadership of the Taoiseach with whom there is a genuine disappointment — I say this having spoken to many farming interests nationwide since this crisis blew up — at his level of participation and interest in this matter. Emanating, as he does, from a farming background, with his knowledge of the importance of this industry to our economy, there is a genuine disappointment at his failure to take a leading role in co-ordinating some type of ministerial or governmental response commensurate with the size of the problem. One might well have expected a leadership role from him in this regard.

Of course, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs has studiously ignored the crisis and has been available to attend to any issue in any corner of the world except, it would seem, to bat for the beef industry. It would appear that Dublin-Farranfore is his preferred air route. It is ironic that those who made their political reputation by ballyragging the beef trade are not now prepared to defend the industry against unfounded accusations. Given that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry had charted the same course immediately prior to this crisis, it is hardly surprising that the Government approach has veered between apathy and enmity. It is an apt analogy that while the Government has been fiddling the beef industry has gone up in smoke.

It is crucial to bear in mind that BSE is only the latest in a series of crises to hit the industry. Winter finishers were already facing huge losses because of the debacle over export refunds. Throughout last autumn and in defiance of all independent commentators the Minister and his Department persisted in assuring farmers that prices would not be affected by cuts in export refunds. The Minister's complacency was such that he publicly stated his priority was to get a deal for sheep farmers and only then would he turn his attention to the cattle industry. I said then that if that was all the Minister was doing for the sheep industry we would have to wait and see what he would do for the cattle industry. What has happened since? The sheep farmers are still waiting to get paid what they were promised in the infamous £26 million deal negotiated last Christmas. In the meantime the cattle industry has gone into a tailspin.

Before Easter the Minister negotiated a deal for intervention in Luxembourg. That deal was heralded by his publicist as a "breakthrough". Within days the Minister was seeking a new deal. It was apparent the scheme he had negotiated in Luxembourg was not worth the paper it was written on as far as Irish farmers and beef processors were concerned. Most Irish cattle were not eligible because of the weight restriction of 380 kilogrammes. It is apparent that at the moment of greatest need the Minister, who is supposed to be fighting for the needs of the beef industry, had no grasp at a technical level of the industry. The incompetence in negotiating and agreeing to the deal in Luxembourg is mind boggling. What shred of credibility can he expect to have at European Union level if he is running back within days to say that what he has agreed is of no use whatsoever? Clearly, the Minister went to Luxembourg without a clue of what he wanted. Worse still, he left Luxembourg without realising what he had got.

It would appear from talking to people in the industry that the only way to deal with this issue is by an emergency intervention scheme. Clearly what emanated from Luxembourg was not an emergency scheme but a market support mechanism which sought to put into intervention cattle for which there was a market in the butcher trade at home. It is the exclusion from the scheme of the thousands of heavy cattle housed in sheds throughout the country that has caused the debacle. How could the Minister agree to a scheme that excludes 70 per cent of steer beef? It is mind boggling, especially when one considers that at the same meeting the British, the people who had caused the problem, were getting billions of pounds in compensation through EU support to kill off the BSE infected herds. Those who caused the problem got billions but we who were suffering because of the problem got a scheme that was totally unworkable.

Historically Ireland has benefited from intervention, which was set up as a market support to deal with the crisis when markets collapsed. There was a recognition that Ireland is the only country that depends so heavily on exports. The French and Germans are self sufficient in beef and are exercising a national preference in their domestic market. The price of cattle in their countries is not as low as in this country. They will probably survive this crisis and are in a far better position than we are. Our domestic market is too small to consume what we produce. The percentage of beef production that is export oriented is 85 per cent. If the market to which we are supposed to be exporting collapses because of a lack of consumer confidence or is closed off because of decisions made by Governments in non-EU countries it is vital that the intervention scheme agreed is tailor-made to Irish needs. That has to be a prerequisite for agreement on any scheme.

The Minister talks about the breakthrough when he succeeded in raising the weight requirement from 340 kilogrammes to 380 kilogrammes, but everybody who either produces or processes beef told him it would be of no use whatsoever to them. Douglas Hogg, who knows a lot less about agriculture than the Minister, has been able to negotiate billions of pounds and he caused the problem. Why has our Minister, Deputy Yates, not been able to negotiate a decent intervention price to take out the cattle that overhang the market? It defies logic. The beef industry is an essential national interest. To assess its importance one would need to take the best alternative industry and multiply it by four to have a comparison of its economic impact on our economy. What did we end up with? An unworkable scheme.

The cattle are still in the sheds and we still do not know what price we will get for them. Winter fatteners are not prepared to sell cattle at 90p per lb. They were protesting on the streets three months ago that they could not accept 97p per lb because they had been told in September and October they could pay the equivalent of £1.05 and still make money in the spring. That is what those who are supposed to know the policy were telling them. We now have a total mess. Worse still, we agreed to give Douglas Hogg billions to get rid of his diseased cattle and we accepted the increase in weight from 340 kilogrammes to 380 kilogrammes as the concession to Ireland. It is like accepting the bluff of someone with two twos when one holds four aces in a poker game and losing the game.

At what stage do we move beyond the technocracy that has been the hallmark of Deputy Yates's ministry and start getting political decisions in favour of our national interest? There is no point half way through the Council negotiations feeding out to the IFA delegation, to the Farmers Journal and other agricultural journalists that the Minister has achieved a breakthrough. The cattle are in the sheds and there is no sign of them getting out unless we start rearing buffalo.

There is a lack of understanding of how the beef industry works and this has extended to the rendering sector. Before Easter the rendering factories were told in Agriculture House that their problems were their own. They came up with a good solution. They said it might be their problem this week but it would be the Department's problem next week because they were not going to do anything with 12,500 tonnes of offal. Suddenly we saw a flurry of activity on the morning of Easter Tuesday in an effort to find a solution. What was the solution? They got £2.5 million to deal with the problem for five weeks and stay quiet and they had to work out themselves what they would do with the rest. In other words the problem was thrown back at them. There is no indication from the Minister or anybody else in his Department what will happen on 22 May if we do not have a solution. The industry represents 6 per cent of gross national product — and that is the way we run our business. This is how we build a modern food industry in Ireland; the people who have a difficulty are told it is their problem. This is the type of response we have received in the face of crisis.

I understand that people become panic-stricken when the plan crumbles and the cards fall out of their hands and they do not know how to pick them up. However, people in this business are entitled to a better answer than it is their problem. It is everybody's problem and it will only be solved in the spirit of people sitting down and using their intelligence. The idea that people cannot be dealt with next week but, if they cause enough hullabaloo about it the following week, the Department will get back to them is no way to run a business and definitely no way to run a Department.

I welcome the lifting of the weight restrictions in the intervention scheme, which has been negotiated. We are lucky to get it but the basic question is why we did not receive it on the first day. If it is available today, it should have been available two weeks ago. Why was it not available when Britain and others were being looked after? Why was Ireland not looked after? The paltry tender of 950 tonnes relates only to boning. I asked why no application was made for boneless beef and I was told it was simple; we were offered 8.1p a pound to debone the meat and the fact that the British are paying 15p a pound has nothing to do with us. The Department was asked if we would do it for 13.2p a pound but it said it needed the consent of the Department of Finance and it would get back to those involved. However, the Department never got back to them and the Minister wonders why people will not tender for boneless beef.

The people who were asked to bone it on behalf of the intervention agents in this country are not prepared to do it at a loss. The Department has no idea of the commercial realities. It has no idea what the new situation involves, the fact that it is based on the 1993 scheme, that it is far more bureaucratic, that one cannot debone in the same slaughtering facility, that one must wait for 48 hours before it can be sent for deboning, that it can be regarded after the deboning process and the many other bureaucratic technicalities that have been loaded into the intervention scheme as a result. We know one thing about the new intervention scheme — it is less efficient, we will not achieve the same throughput in the same amount of time and time is of the essence to deal with the number of cattle which must go through the system if people are prepared to accept the price. Ultimately, what has been achieved by the intervention scheme? We have a bad price instead of no price; 91p or 92p is just not good enough.

If we are lucky.

The price is rising.

I hope it reaches 99p or £1.

The Deputy would know the position if he knew his business.

I know my business and I know the people who quoted 97p a pounds will not see it.

Who will be to blame for that? The factories?

The person who quoted that amount is in authority and is in the House. The Minister said it; I just listen to the people with political responsibilities. They said 97p a pound but I will wait and see. The Minister may be elsewhere when the tender is decided, but I hope he is correct regarding that amount. However, whether it is 97p, 96p, 95p or 98p, it is a price which will not even wash farmers' faces; it will not get them out of the difficulty. It will help them much more than 91p or 92p, but we all recognise at this stage that there will be no profit in beef this year but rather heavy losses.

As I said, only one member of the Government is going a single bat at the crease. The Minister, Deputy Yates, is the only person in Government with any interest in this matter. It appears the wider responsibilities of Cabinet do not come into play. I am convinced the political composition of the Government is militating against the best agricultural interests of this country. I listen to Government backbenchers in the House and the level of ignorance in terms of absence of knowledge about the reality of the beef industry in this country is amazing.

Astounding.

It seems that some Cabinet members and some Government backbenchers think they have the luxury of going around constantly ballyragging this industry to secure votes or in an effort to assuage their narrow political constituency when the essential national interest of thousands of PAYE workers, let alone farmers, is at stake in relation to how this matter is handled. Some Deputies on the Government benches know the business and they are equally dismissive of the type of dialogue and debate they hear from certain quarters on that side of the House in relation to agricultural matters.

The Minister said he has asked the banks to go easy on farmers as they face these financial difficulties. This is welcome but I am sure the Minister also agrees it is important farmers are paid what they are owed by the Department as soon as possible. There is a cash crisis on Irish farms. For example, the second round of REPS has not yet been paid, extensification payments are over a month late and many farmers are still awaiting payment of the 22 month premium. Before the Minister asks others to bail him out of his responsibilities, perhaps he will put his house in order and send those payments to farmers soon. Farmers are saying that if they are to endure losses, which is the case, they want what is due to them from the Department as a matter of urgency.

Perhaps the biggest irony in this farce is the Minister's plea to the factories. Some weeks ago I was in Brussels when the Minister excoriated the largest player in the beef business. Now he wants the factories to do his bidding. The Minister's plea to the factory owners underlines the mistake he made in launching that cynical attack. It was another attempt to displace political responsibility for problems he saw emerging in relation to the size of the beef fine. The point was to find a victim and, as far as his party is concerned, who better than the person the Minister named in the House.

Farmers are paying in spades for the Minister's reckless and opportunistic political gambit. The solution to the series of crises which have afflicted the beef industry in recent times is for the Government and the Minister to take responsibility for its remit. The valuable time lost by the Government in going to our markets must be made up. It is not sufficient just to open up these markets; they must be fully functional. The tragedy is that the task will be all the more difficult because that critical time was lost. Unfavourable impressions have been allowed to settle. A cogent response must be negotiated at EU level. The recent belated improvement in intervention terms is not a final or adequate solution. The underlying matter of the long-term stability of export refunds must be addressed.

As the Minister embarks on his visit, a basic point must be made. From the experience of our visit to Iran, the Government must not fall into the trap that one only talks to people when one is in trouble. Diplomacy is a two way street. People have items on their agenda which need to be examined sympathetically and supported where possible. It is part of what we call international relations. There has been too much in terms of the Government going to other people to solve their difficulties when Ireland has a problem but it has not listened when others have problems.

If one lesson can be learned it is that a country such as Ireland, which exports this valuable product to 80 countries some of which are not as politically stable as Ireland, must remember that agendas beyond just the farming agenda must be addressed at the same time as improvements in our export trade are sought. This is a political reality to which the Government has not attached much importance.

When a delegation of which I was a member went to Iran, word issued quickly from the usual unnamed official sources that this was a technical matter, they could handle it, there was no need for the delegation, its members were cutting across the officials and should be sent home. It was official sources, not farmers or beef processers, who said that.

I have nothing but the greatest respect for our veterinary and technical people who do an excellent job. I always defend and uphold their professionalism and integrity. I had to do so in Iran because of one unfortunate incident which caused more trouble than one would imagine.

Most of us realise that the political heads of Departments in such countries make the commercial decisions and one does not deal with an organisation like An Bord Bia or An Bord Tráchtála, but with State purchasing agencies under the direct control of political people. This matter involves a question of mutual respect and proper protocol. If we want to solve a problem which, from the point of view of those countries, involves political people, a politician should go to those countries to seek to solve it. We need technical and veterinary people to give a detailed analysis and reassurances on veterinary and scientific aspects, but it is naive to think that alone is sufficient in some countries. The Salamanca and The Nordland Saga were able to deliver 3,000 tonnes of beef because they had sailed before the ban was imposed. As a result of our political visit The Ping Quan was allowed to deliver 3,000 tonnes of beef even though it sailed after the ban was imposed. The 4,000 tonnes of processed beef in Irish stores separated before 20 March will also be accepted. That was a political gesture to our people.

I congratulated the Taoiseach when he telephoned President Mubarak and helped to open up the Egyptian market. It ill behoves Ministers at home to seek to belittle genuine efforts being made by others abroad. On the RTE news on Wednesday night the Minister announced that 10,000 tonnes of beef would go to Iran. I told the media that when I returned on the previous Monday, but if the Minister wants to take the credit he can. I am sure nobody cares, if it means opening up that market more quickly. It will not stop us doing what we can to help, irrespective of sceptical responses from official sources who see the thunder being taken from their God.

Farmers and I welcome the Minister's proposed trip. For some weeks, I urged him to make it and I hope he is successful because that would be in the country's interests. However, farmers and processors are asking why he could not have gone a little earlier. I accept there is protocol and official advice is always prudent and proper, but there are times when politicians must make political judgments. To date, the Minister's political judgments have not been as sure as one would have expected.

Long-term solutions to these problems involve quality assurance, flexibility, technical efficiency and price stability. In 1994 beef farmers had 40 per cent of the average farm income and depended on premia for 78 per cent of that income. In a bad year, such as this, that dependency will have increased to 100 per cent in many cases. A study I published two weeks ago shows that cattle farmers are getting less than half the premia intended. That is a major issue, a hot potato that has not been tackled. It may be suggested that CAP reform is beginning to bite in the way in which it was intended by Brussels and perhaps the 1992-93 situation was false with high prices, premiums paid and pocketed and people doing reasonably well compared to previously. Now that prices are falling, margins will be tighter and we need a policy response from Government that will improve technical efficiencies in the industry. The disparity between the bottom and top 25 per cent of beef producers would lead one to believe they are in a different line of business. We need technical supports, resources and assistance to farmers to provide a product consistent with market requirements but one that is also price sensitive to farmers' needs. If we claim to have a premium product, it is a marketing failure if Irish beef, rather than the British product which is supposed to be BSE infected, is left on shelves in Sainsburys when that store decides to mark down the price of British beef. That indicates we are taking our product for granted and not communicating to our customers that it is the best product in the world. For too long we have adopted a complacent attitude, that we know our product is the best and, therefore, people will buy it.

As 60 per cent of our live cattle are exported to non-EU markets, with Egypt and Libya being crucial outlets, we need to travel to those markets to reassure those customers. Such a visit is not merely a question of optics as sceptics would claim. Political visits make a difference in non-European countries because of their political culture. People in those countries believe their politicians. If the politicians tell their people our product is good, their people believe it, but the contrary is the case here. People believe their politicians because they believe they will act in the people's interests. In travelling to those countries the Minister will reassure farmers and processors here who are depending on him as well as customers. When non-European markets are opened up and become fully functional, our rate of success will depend on what the Iranian, the Egyptian or the Libyan thinks of our product. The Minister in making that visit will get the type of media exposure that will help secure Irish beef as a distinct safe premium product. Those are the long-term issues and they may be peripheral, but they are important.

Is 97 pence a possible price? Is there a prospect of the Minister obtaining additional premia to compensate the farmers involved? Can he extend the slaughter premium? Those are the questions farmers asked at meetings I attended last weekend. I have been asked to put them to the Minister and I hope he will give clear answers. Irrespective of the consequences for the Minister, I hope he will give honest answers.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann, mindful of the importance of the beef industry in Ireland and the essential national interest involved, commends the efforts of the Government to confront the crisis in the industry, to restore consumer confidence in Irish beef and to secure the reopening of vital export markets".

I had thought that the national interest was the motivation for this motion, but the mask of the principal Opposition party slipped somewhat this evening as we listened to some points of criticism and demands for action, but mostly to a series of political point-scoring and carping which does not add significantly to solving the enormity of the problems we face concerning the lack of marketability of Irish or other beef. I will not indulge in that kind of debate as it would not be in the interests of our farmers and processors, but I hope to address as many as possible of the issues raised by the Deputy.

The announcement in the House of Commons on Wednesday, 20 March 1996 will be long remembered by those who have been monitoring developments in relation to BSE and in particular all those involved in the beef industry. Much has happened in the past four weeks. A major scientific debate has developed about the alleged connection between BSE and CJD; a ban has been imposed by the EU on exports of British cattle, beef and beef products; a wave of consumer concern developed in regard to the safety of beef and beef products; the rendering industry virtually collapsed with a threatened closure at one stage and certain third countries have imposed bans on cattle and beef from Europe, to name but a few. Special sessions of the Council of Agriculture Ministers and the Standing Veterinary Committee have been convened.

This is not a complete list of the consequences. I can think of the need to transpose into Irish law within 24 hours a ban on 500 beef-related food substances in the UK and to have a special co-ordinated effort by the Garda, Army and Customs service to seal off the Border in an unprecedented way and the many other ramifications in relation to our depopulation policy, all of which had to be implemented rapidly and dealt with seriatim.

The reverberations from the announcement in the House of Commons have been felt by the beef industry across the world. Given the dominant economic position of our beef industry — it accounts for 6 per cent of GDP and 10 per cent of net foreign earnings — and its dependence on export markets, the consequences and issues at stake for our industry and overall economy are extremely important. For that reason, I fully accept the need for a debate on the issue and I am fully prepared to defend the actions and record of the Government in responding to this crisis.

Official policy in regard to BSE has been explained on many occasions. Put simply, we have extensive surveillance systems in relation to post and ante-mortems and veterinary activity on an on-farm basis. This has shown a small number of cases, less than 20 a year, which is diminishing and a growing age profile in relation to cows which may have eaten infected meat and bonemeal before 1989.

We have also provided full consumer protection based on thorough and reliable inspection systems. Our veterinary surveillance system in meat factories is unique. The most recent developments in regard to BSE have been reviewed by the Food Safety Advisory Board which reports to the Minister for Health and me.

We have been able to provide assurances to authorities and customers in export markets in regard to the safety and reliability of Irish beef. This message has been pushed consistently by An Bord Bia, our embassies which have been active since this crisis unfolded and the various delegations from my Department — which I will list later — which have been visiting countries where concerns have arisen. It is worth remembering that Irish beef is in free circulation in Europe, most of the Middle East, Russia, Algeria and Egypt.

I have had many meetings, including with Dr. Sakharov, the chief veterinary officer in Russia. Last week I met a Saudi Arabian business delegation. I have had countless meetings with Iranians and contact with the Algerians. The aim of these meetings was to ensure that crisis measures would not be necessary. In the case of Russia which is taking 100,000 tonnes of beef, we have maintained continuity of trade without any headlines.

It is useful to recall the sequence of events since 20 March and the range of issues which have arisen in that period. The first issue was to explain and defend our own controls and provide assurances publicly to Irish consumers. This has been done successfully given that consumption has recovered quite well. A recent survey indicated that there was a high degree of consumer confidence in Irish beef. The figure is moving towards 80 per cent and varies from one outlet to another.

The next issue was to participate in EU discussions and ensure that we would not be involved in the scope of decisions taken by the Standing Veterinary Committee, EU Commission and Council of Ministers. In other words, the aim was to ring-fence the problem in Britain. Despite the low, sporadic level of BSE here, there were countries which wanted a wider scope to include member states where cases of BSE had been reported. The first thing we had to ensure was that there be an independent veterinary and scientific decision which we could market across the world. It was essential to put the horse before the cart.

The response and approach of the Government has been clear, sure and effective and the matter was discussed at its meeting on 27 March. I heard Deputy Cowen say on many occasions that no decisions were taken at that meeting. The fact is I did not announce all the decisions taken at the meeting and have been busy implementing them. They included sealing off the Border, setting up the body chaired by the Director of Consumer Affairs and the provision of an information line. There has been constant liaison between my Department and the Department of Health, a critical issue at the time in terms of the concern about curly-wee bars in Easter eggs and the mass confusion about gelatin. All those issues have now been forgotten, but decisions were taken at that Government meeting. Decisions were also made about who should approach whom.

They were not reported to the House.

The extent of the conversations of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, who has been subject to much criticism, with the Iranian Foreign Minister, Mr. Valyati, has not been publicised. The Taoiseach has had numerous conversations with people from Jordan, the UAE as well as Egypt. Just because these contacts have not been highlighted does not mean there has not been constant liaison between my Department and other Departments, they have been pulling their weight and doing their bit behind the scenes.

Similarly, there has been constant liaison between my Department and the Department of Health. The report of the Food Safety Advisory Board sets out its views with great clarity and has put the suggested link between BSE and CJD into proper context.

The full weight of our diplomatic corps has been brought into play. I pay tribute to our ambassadors, agricultural attaches and counsellors across the world who have been working intensively in all our critical markets making appropriate official and commercial links and contact during the past three weeks. The Taoiseach has taken a direct and effective role.

In relation to Egypt and the Galloway Express, when the secretary of the Department and the chief veterinary officer left Cairo agreement had been reached in respect of four named boats. Ten days later there was an EU trade delegation which succeeded in making the position worse in discussions about oranges and brown rot in potatoes. If it had not been for the efforts of the Taoiseach the Egyptian market would not be open to European beef today despite the presence in Egypt of Chirac and our contacts with French diplomats.

The ban in Kuwait has been lifted and I am confident that the ban in Jordan will be lifted shortly. In all these areas, the approach of the Government has been pro-active, co-ordinated and effective and the issues have been dealt with efficiently.

My priority is to provide assistance for beef producers. I have always acknowledged that they had a difficult winter. On the re-opening of the intervention outlet, Deputy Cowen laid great stress on the Luxembourg meeting. When the officials in DG VI went into that meeting the doors to intervention were not alone locked, barred and bolted, but sealed. Under no circumstances would they be reopened. After a 40 hour meeting over two nights a political declaration was arrived at whereby 50,000 tonnes would be put into intervention. It was left to the beef management committee to work out the appropriate details.

The reason it was possible, after consultations with my opposite numbers in France and Germany and, trilaterally, with Commissioner Fischler last week, to secure abolition of the weight limits and a widening of the eligible grades — I pay tribute to my officials for the role they have played during the past week — was there was a political understanding that 50,000 tonnes would be put into intervention, with a minimum figure of 10,000 tonnes, which would be honoured because it would not apply throughout Europe.

Because the situation was so fluid, under point 10, there was a clear political declaration that there would be flexibility and that issues such as premia and weight limits would be dealt with. That was a major breakthrough. The fact that political direction was given at that meeting made it possible for the changes to be made last week. Some 90 per cent of Irish steers will be eligible and a suitable framework exists to enable Irish slaughtering plants to make effective use of this mechanism. There will not be another 26A bus coming. This is a one off tender and if we do not take up the 50,000 tonnes offer, we can be assured it will be oversubscribed by the French, Germans, Austrians etc. If suppliers are serious about getting their employees back to work and having throughput, they must put in a realistic tender for a suitable volume.

I will not speculate or talk down the question of price. A higher price can be paid than the tender of 980 tonnes.

How high?

I will not speculate on that, although I do not have a figure in my head. We do not have too long to wait on this matter. My Department is in constant contact——

Did the Minister communicate that figure to anybody?

At no stage have I speculated on the figure.

At no stage?

At no stage. People have tried to put words in my mouth in that regard and the record will clearly show that. I do not know if any future report may put all our efforts back at nought. This is an extremely fluid situation. There is currently no market in Ireland for the 50,000 cattle stuck in farmers' sheds and my primary imperative is to lift that paralysis.

My political commitment is to operate the Luxembourg declaration and to seek compensation by way of premia adjustments to deal with whatever the outcome is on price. Similarly I cannot give an answer on deseasonalisation slaughter premia because it requires not only the Council but the Parliament to change it. Since Ireland and a small part of Germany gets the DSP, this may not be the best way to proceed. Maybe a European rather than a deseasonalisation slaughter premium would be the way to marshal a coalition of support. The level to be sought may only be apparent when one sees the exact fall-out in prices. Whatever the circumstances vis-à-vis prices and loss, we will be making a strong case to get European Union support for compensation through premia which will also take into account the level of revival in consumption.

I am slightly bemused, not to say amused — I am long enough in politics to see both sides — about the rendering industry. The reason I did not have a solution to the rendering problem on Holy Thursday was that I had spent three days in Luxembourg. I find it difficult to be criticised for not being at home dealing with problems and waiting for them to come back to me——

Has the Minister been in Brussels since then?

——and at the same time expected to be in all four corners of the earth.

Nonsense. The Minister of State, Deputy Deenihan, was in Sweden looking after our interests.

In Stockholm, and he was very successful.

How many thousands of tonnes do we export there, pray tell?

What about Ray MacSharry?

He burned his effigy.

We had total order for the previous speaker and we will have the same level of order for the Member in possession.

I have a limited amount of time. A key market has been developed in Sweden with three retail groups. The visit there was extremely successful as we are now back in business and I am surprised that Deputy Cowen is decrying that fact.

The Deputy said I was throwing the rendering problems back on to the industry. The meat processors, renderers and producers told me on Easter Tuesday morning that the meat factories had come to a complete halt because there was nowhere to put offal and that this was not their problem but that of the Minister. I make no apology for telling them that the taxpayer will not be giving a subsidy of half a million pounds a week ad infinitum to solve the rendering problem. If, through the decisions of the pigmeat or poultry sector, there is no alternative but to dump meat and bonemeal in landfill sites and if meat and bonemeal are devalued from £170 a tonne to a negative net value, there must be commercial repercussions. That has an implication for the next quarter and is not practical. I do not know what commitment Deputy Cowen was inferring I should give on behalf of the taxpayer, but any reports I read about public opinion on this issue give the Government conditional support for its actions on the basis that the taxpayer should not be involved other than on an emergency reactive basis to give a window of opportunity to find a solution.

In that regard, we are facilitating tripartite talks of all the industry at assistant secretary level to find a workable solution. However, if the fallout is a total downward re-evaluation of meat and bonemeal, that has commercial consequences which cannot be resolved by the taxpayer.

I was due to go to Libya today but I had to attend this debate. I indicated that I wanted to go to Libya a week ago, principally because we have a large contract for our live cattle trade there. There is currently a ban on European beef there and we first succeeded in getting a decision on that contract deferred until 4 May. That gives us the opportunity to state our case. It has not been possible for the Trade Board or the Libyan authorities to arrange meetings and it is now likely that I will go there from Sunday next to Tuesday.

I will be conducting a major promotion with the Trade Board and the Irish Food Board in Madrid tomorrow and subsequently in Verona and Milan. I am concerned that there have been some negative reports in Italy about our beef and that confusion needs to be cleared up. There will be a full schedule of events, involving reassurances in some cases and a direct presence in others. Russia is also involved.

The Egyptian market would not be open to us today if it were not for the discussions between the Taoiseach and President Hosni Mubarak. The ban in Kuwait has been lifted and our position in Saudi Arabia is also strong. I spoke to Minister Faqi for a lengthy period this morning. We had £60 million of trade there last year, as was the case with Iran. These countries want reassurances about the Border, reassurances about a case that was well publicised in the British Sunday Times about an officer in the Department, veterinary papers and independent EU, WHO and other independent guarantees on Irish food safety. Every Minister has told me that this is not a political issue. While I have a WTO report in front of me showing what it wants, they are at pains to say that this is not political. It sees this as a moral issue of food safety. Many people tell me that I should ignore the technical advice but get in the air.

The Minister is not being asked to ignore technical advice. He should not misrepresent me.

I am not saying Deputy Cowen said that but others did. I will always operate on the basis of the diplomats on the ground and the technical advice based on years of trading with these countries. None of this is new. We were locked out of Iran for three years. I have not commented publicly on the Fianna Fáil delegation to Iran. During his tenure as shadow spokesman Deputy Cowen has never failed to highlight my propensity for photo opportunities. The only comment of irony is that it provided a very suitable photo opportunity at Dublin Airport over a holiday weekend.

There was media interest.

I am just making that point of irony because the Deputy would be the first to criticise me.

I did not ring them up looking for coverage.

I know exactly how that visit was arranged. I spoke to the Minister, Mr. Prozesh, for 50 minutes from my home on Sunday morning and the Iranian ambassador was present; this was not the first or last conversation I have had with Tehran. I asked him whether it would be of benefit — because many problems still exist in Iran — if I travelled there myself. They told me this was not a political issue and it was not necessary for me to go to Tehran. They said I am always welcome but it was not necessary for me to go there. If at any stage it had been indicated that I should be in Tehran, I would go there.

It was indicated months ago.

Many people have travelled in every direction but our technical visit there of Mr. John Malone, Assistant Secretary at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, and our veterinary representative, Mr. Albert Costello, was extremely successful and the Deputy will verify that.

I have said so publicly.

I agree, as regards the situation in Iran, there was a contract for 16,500 tonnes of beef, of which 10,000 tonnes has already been produced, it was in Foynes, on the high seas or in situ in the port. The unloading has been agreed but to get the EU payment requires free circulation. The latest word on that is that Dr. Mutelabi, the chief veterinary officer, is to send me a letter setting out the veterinary requirements and detailing the reassurances they need. They have received letters from France and Holland. I await Dr. Mutelabi's letter. We have already brought some Iranian people to the Border to reassure them on that situation.

The Iranians buy in the spring and autumn. I would not overrate the Iranian market, although it has been valuable in terms of price support in recent months and we should honour our contract. However, in relation to the lifting of the ban, domestic Iranian political issues of which the Deputy would be aware, which are nothing to do with Irish beef or diplomatic presence, are also a factor. I have been told the issue cannot be solved until those factors have been resolved — and that will happen in about one week. I am very anxious to have deep cordial links with Iran.

I will go incognito next time.

I doubt that somehow.

That is what the Minister is asking me to do.

I will not wilfully criticise any contribution made, whoever makes it. The issues are principally technical. The issue of free circulation is still not resolved but I hope it will be following this exchange of letters and, in my view, the ban will be lifted only when certain political events happen in Iran.

Meet the people and listen to what they are saying.

I can brief the Deputy privately on that.

The Minister has but four minutes left, so let there be no more interruptions.

Where a political intervention is required, this has been and will be done.

The British Minister for Agriculture today announced a series of measures. I have heard farm leaders, as well as Deputy Cowen, behaving as if Britain got a bonanza from Luxembourg. This is a total disaster for Britain. I said publicly that two days of statements from the House of Commons have done ten years' damage not only to British beef but to European beef. The fact is that today's announcement of £500 for an over 30 month animal, for either culled cows or for steer beef, is a disaster. If that was being offered here as a multi-billion pound bonanza, Deputy Cowen would be the first to give me a tirade of abuse, and rightly so.

We do not have to slaughter our cattle.

Irish meat processing plants own a huge proportion of the British meat processing capacity.

Some 30 per cent.

It is our biggest single market, providing a market for 50,000 tonnes of beef worth £200 million. Because of the land border and the incentive to smuggle, it is in our interest, both from a pan-European perspective and a purely narrow domestic industry interest, to get the issue of British beef resolved. It does not suit us to hang Britain out there with no solution. There will only be a permanent solution when some normality returns to British markets, and that is still some months away. The British still have to come up with further measures in terms of identifying animals and herds at risk and introduce a slaughter policy. They are not getting billions of pounds because this scheme will be financed out of the rebate system the then British Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, organised some years ago. British producers and processors will sustain horrendous losses. They are talking about getting less than 80p per lb. for beef and the Deputy is not happy with £1 per lb.

Farmers are not happy with those prices.

That is true. I will do all possible to ensure that departmental payments are expedited. This is a multifaceted issue. Issues which are resolved are forgotten; we move on to the next issue. In this case the next issue is a sustained attempt over weeks and months to increase trade activity in Europe and to have governmental and other restrictions abroad lifted. Some 7,000 cattle are going to Egypt this week. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are pivotal to the markets. Some of the markets that were closed down were inconsequential but we will try to get back into business in 80 states.

I ask for the patience and understanding of the entire industry. People need to realise that, as of today, there is no market for the 20,000 cattle a week we need to kill and the 50,000 cattle which were not slaughtered because throughput for the last three weeks has been down 68 per cent on what it should be. I need no advice, encouragement or awareness about the gravity of the situation. At the outset I realised the proportions of the difficulty and I want to assure the House that this Government and all the personnel of this Government, at home or abroad, are available in a national effort to secure our industry.

I spoke to the French Minister for Agriculture last Wednesday and he told me that virtually every French meat plant was closed. We cannot escape the effects of a crisis which has affected the world. I spoke to the New Zealand Minister for Agriculture. New Zealand imports have been banned in Europe because of a British decision. This crisis has had a knock-on effect everywhere. There are no instantaneous resolutions to this issue, but in so far as dynamism and energy can and will resolve these issues, this Government is doing more than any other Government in Europe to deal with our key national interest and will continue to do so as long as the crisis persists.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Kirk.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

It is a matter of considerable regret to all of us that problems in Irish farming are once again on the agenda of this House. It needs to be said very clearly that we are at one in seeking a resolution of these problems. I welcome the Minister's commitment as expressed in the last few sentences of his speech. He has to realise that our role is sometimes to cajole him, sometimes to encourage him, sometimes to push him a little harder, but always to try to ensure that an industry that is so central to the economic wellbeing of this country is properly looked after. Unfortunately, sometimes that is difficult to do because, in certain instances, matters outside our control impinge on the industry, as in this instance.

As Deputy Cowen pointed out, this House recently discussed the major crisis in the sheep industry. The crisis was partially resolved, although I understand the payments promised are still outstanding. However, that crisis still impinges on Irish agriculture because it is unresolved. More recently, we went through the first phase of the beef crisis. Again, little progress was made in dealing with it; it was not the type of progress necessary to put Irish beef farming on a sound footing, even if what happened since then had not taken place. We would still be in a crisis if the BSE situation had not occurred.

There is a level of despondency and worry in farming circles. It is difficult to express it but it is palpable. I attended a meeting last night at which a number of farmers were present. They are worried and they want to see action from the Minister and the Department. They particularly want to see the confusion cleared up as that is the most worrying aspect of this crisis. The level of misinformation, failure to address the problems and failure to come to terms with the need to take action are also worrying.

In newspaper reports before Easter a number of commentators were critical of Fianna Fáil for having used Private Members' time to discuss the controversy surrounding the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins, and Niall Stokes, rather than using the time to address this issue. Deputy Cowen and the other Deputies who decided not to proceed with the beef issue on that occasion were right. They gave the Minister space and time to clear up some of the confusion. However, I am disappointed at the Minister's failure to make progress on that front. The time was poorly used.

Even if we were to forget the three most recent crises in agriculture, it must be said that, overall, Irish agriculture does not know where it is going. Some months ago the Minister was credited — although that is probably not the right word — with commenting on the future of cheques in the post. It was seen in farming circles as a negative comment. They are a major element of every farmer's take home pay. If they do not continue to arrive, and they probably will not, farmers must be reassured that the matter is being examined and dealt with and will not be an abyss into which Irish farmers will fall at some time in the future.

Farming is not the type of industry which can be sustained or which can generate confidence in itself in a vacuum. It needs support and it is important that the industry is sustained. We need to know where we stand in the EU and where we are going in terms of GATT. We also need a long-term policy that charts a future for Irish agriculture. The only worthwhile analysis of agriculture I have seen in the recent past has come from the farming organisations. It is frequently dismissed as scaremongering or self-serving publicity. I suppose it contains such an element because that is part of the farming organisations' job. However, there is also evidence of a need for this State to decide if it is serious about agriculture. The evidence is that it is not.

In fairness, part of the present crisis is outside our control. The handling of the BSE situation by the British was truly appalling and defies all understanding. It is also a problem that the disease occurs at all. However, the response to the crisis is our responsibility. Our response has been weak. What is fundamentally wrong with the response — and I accept the truth of everything the Minister has said about what he has done — is the fact that it has not been recognised that there are farmers in parishes throughout the country whose livelihoods are dependent on this industry at one level or another. If farmers cannot continue to live in those communities it will mean the end of the communities. It will not matter what fancy policies we put in place or what well-intentioned rural development programmes we produce if these people cannot live and provide an income for themselves in the communities of which they are a part.

We must also acknowledge that it is very difficult for the majority of farmers to make a living and rear a family on an Irish farm. Anybody who looks realistically at the type of struggle farming entails for 90 per cent of the people who depend on agriculture must realise that there is a constant element of worry for every farmer in ensuring that there is enough to provide for their families in terms of basic necessities. That is the fundamental role of Irish agriculture in rural areas.

This crisis has brought the industry as a whole, including workers and their dependants, into the centre of the picture. In the course of every debate this House has held on agriculture since the formation of the present Government, Democratic Left has produced a speaker to engage in a tirade of farmer bashing which is truly disgraceful. I have difficulty believing that the electors of those Deputies would be sufficiently impressed to vote for them on the basis of some of the performances we have seen. The Government parties have a responsibility to prevent such attacks which do enormous damage. They might be laughed off in the Chamber but every bit of mud thrown has an effect, and some of it sticks. It is destabilising, extremely unhelpful and it must be dealt with at Government level. Failure to deal with it will lead to the inevitable conclusion that this Government is not committed to the farming community.

It is fair to congratulate Deputy Cowen and the other members of the Fianna Fáil delegation who undertook the trip to Iran. In advance of the trip they must have felt there were risks attached to themselves in addition to the grave possibility that they would not get any credit or benefit for the industry. However, the trip was beneficial. In Ireland, more than anywhere else, we should know that where dialogue is kept alive and where people can meet and talk, progress can be made. I welcome the Minister's response to the trip. It was less negative than much of what has emanated heretofore from official sources. The official response was small and mean minded; it bordered on nasty. Perhaps some people felt the visit by the Fianna Fáil delegation exposed Government inaction on the issue. However, if we wish to confront this serious situation we must be prepared, to some extent at least, to accommodate the assistance of every element in reaching a solution.

Another matter has been omitted from the agenda. We have looked to agriculture to provide the indigenous raw material for a huge job sector. It has done that reasonably successfully and, in some cases, very successfully. However, the situation we have encountered in recent weeks has shown how quickly an entire industry can be undermined and virtually grind to a standstill. We need to address that aspect as part of a policy for agriculture — which we do not have — and its industrial offshoots. We must know what direction we are taking.

The role of the live cattle trade has tended to be overshadowed and, to some extent, forgotten. However, it is very important. Before the BSE scare it was subject to attack from animal rights activists who might have had a case. However, the case was overstated and there was no balance in how it was handled.

Of course, it is necessary to ensure access to ports for the export of cattle and to ensure that those who took the risk of buying and exporting those cattle get paid. If one is dealing with markets where monetary payments are impossible, an element of barter must be put in place. The industry must be helped. Those charged with developing, promoting and assisting Irish trade must play a meaningful and worthwhile role in ensuring that that very important and slightly unfashionable outlet for Irish beef remains open and viable and continues to be developed.

Deputy Cowen mentioned the need to address the concerns of consumers, a sector which we have ignored, perhaps more than any other sector. However, the day came when consumers could no longer be ignored. The consumer started to ask questions and in answer, misinformation was placed before him or her —"her" is more important in this instance because women are more likely to make these purchasing choices.

We have nothing to hide in regard to the Irish beef industry but we have sometimes behaved as if we had. We have not been good at making the facts available or allowing consumers access to the information they demand. The Minister might say that is not the direct responsibility of his Department, with which I would partly agree, however, it is the Government's responsibility to draw the threads together and ensure that somebody is responsible.

I am extremely concerned about the downstream effect of holding huge numbers of cattle in fattening sheds, and the fact there is not an outlet for them, on calf and weanling producers. While this situation continues everyone is a loser. The smaller producer is ultimately the most vulnerable, will pay the high price and is the most likely to go out of business because he does not have the necessary resources.

I join with Deputy Cowen in calling on the Minister to ensure immediate payment of the second round of REPS and outstanding extensification grants, 22 month premia and other grants. There are outstanding grants for buildings and so on. The whole grants system is a mess and is extremely unsatisfactory. Field staff must be treated much better in terms of expenses and being allowed to do their work. The Government as a whole needs to address the problem of the pay of lower paid civil servants.

The Minister introduced a charter of rights, which I welcome. However, it is no good announcing a charter of rights if the groundwork has not been laid and the charter cannot be delivered on. The charter is not working. It is not having the effect the Minister envisaged and which we would like to support him on delivering.

To quote the Minister, it is a media opportunity.

We have also come face to face with the problems of the rendering factories. Deputy Cowen outlined the facts and how badly this issue has been dealt with. To be fair to the Minister, he explained he was away and could not deal with the matter until he returned. However, somebody should be in charge to deal with these matters. The Minister cannot wash his hands of this. If the taxpayer subsidy is withdrawn — and he is right to say it will be withdrawn — he cannot then tell people to do what they like. He should take a lead and show the way.

My great disappointment in regard to the ongoing difficulty in relation to the punt and sterling is that several Ministers have a responsibility for this. I do not know if they are passing it to each other or are all ignoring it but this fundamental difficulty for the Irish beef industry is not being addressed.

I thank my colleague, Deputy Killeen, for the opportunity to make a brief contribution to this important debate. The disclosure in the newspapers of the suspected link between BSE and CJD has had a dramatic impact on the beef industry in Ireland, across Europe and further afield. This is another food scare which has an impact on the attitudes of consumers, primary producers, processors and everybody employed in the industry. The potential of food scares to create havoc and wreak devastation on an industry is clearly illustrated by what happened in this instance. There should have been some anticipation of what might happen when such an issue surfaced in the media, which regularly elect to go on a binge of food and other scares which set consumers in conflict with producers.

There has been a dynamic for change in the dairy industry in Ireland and across Europe for many years because of the constant harping on the hazards of eating butter. I do not subscribe to the view that eating butter is hazardous because if any product is taken in moderation — as they should be — there is no health hazard involved. However, dramatic changes took place in the dairy industry, many of which were not in the best interests of the industry, because of a certain perception. Consumers developed a point of view in relation to butter because a range of experts made loose remarks or remarks designed to catch headlines. Subsequently, experts in the same field have differed sharply with many of those advancing such views.

The Food Advisory Board said last week that no scientific link has been established to date between the incidence of BSE and that of CJD in humans. According to a recent newspaper report, a vegetarian died from CJD. This all adds to public confusion. However, it also illustrates and underlines the importance of a cohesive emergency plan to ensure the most up to date information is available. I am realistic enough to know that scientific research is an ongoing process and new problems will emerge to which it might take time to find a solution. However, given the importance of the food industry to our economy, the necessity of cohesion between the State agencies operating in the areas of health and food was graphically illustrated by what happened in this instance. I hope the lessons from this will be learned quickly and that the changes which are clearly needed will be made to ensure we can respond if these problems arise again.

The fine contribution by our party spokesman on agriculture, Deputy Cowen, clearly illustrated the needs and priorities of the beef industry. He underlined the serious losses facing specialist beef fatteners. There is a peculiar interdependency in the beef industry which has not always been recognised and which must be taken into account in a new policy position if it is to survive.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn