It is proposed to take No.6 — Motion re. Confidence in the Government (Resumed).
Order of Business.
Will the Taoiseach indicate when we can expect promised legislation on the courts service and the prisons service? The Government has a practice of producing heads of a Bill. The Minister for Finance stated last night that I was wrong in my assumption and that even though legislation is not listed on schedules A, B, C or D of the Government's proposed legislation to be introduced during the lifetime of this Dáil, the Government has it prepared. Therefore, I presume the heads of the Bills will be available shortly. If independent statutory boards are to be set up, will the Taoiseach indicate where the policy units in that regard will lie? Will they continue to be in the Department of Justice under the same officials or will they be in the independent boards? If they are to be statutory agencies, to whom will they be accountable? Will they be accountable to Dáil Éireann or will they be like other State companies, which for day to day matters are accountable only to a board? That would mean that today could be the last debate in this House on the courts or the prisons and in future the Minister for Justice — if she survives in office following the motion tonight — and other Ministers will not be answerable to this House about such matters. I would like the Taoiseach to clarify that point.
The Deputy has made his point in respect of the legislation and other matters to which the Taoiseach may wish to reply.
The legislation is not drafted. The Government made a decision that it would proceed on a non-statutory basis——
It was a fire brigade job.
Let us hear the Taoiseach without interruption. Questions have been asked. Let us be courteous enough to listen to the replies.
The legislation was decided upon, in principle, by the Government yesterday and drafting of the heads of the legislation will now proceed.
In respect of the prisons agency, the Department of Justice has been working on that matter for the past year. A considerable amount of work has already been done on it. The drafting of the heads of the Bill has not yet commenced, but will commence immediately and will be given priority.
Regarding the courts agency, that was decided, in principle, by the Government some time ago on foot of the receipt of the first report from Mrs. Justice Denham's group. Yesterday the Government decided to proceed initially on a non-statutory basis with that, but also to speed up the preparation of the necessary legislation.
I do not consider it appropriate that we should have a Second Stage debate on those two items of legislation this morning, but the Deputy has raised two questions I can deal with comparatively quickly, if the Ceann Comhairle allows me.
The Chair takes the view the House is always anxious to hear the Taoiseach of the day.
Some Members were not anxious to hear me last night, they were shouting all the time, but I am glad the House is anxious to hear me this morning.
Especially when we are making up policy as we go along, policy on one's feet.
The Deputy is in overdrive.
The Taoiseach was in overdrive yesterday.
Autopilot.
What has been proposed in both cases is executive agencies which, in accordance with practice, will be responsible for the execution of policy. The setting of policy will remain a matter for the Minister for Justice who is answerable to the Dáil for policy matters. Under the Constitution the courts are independent in their judicial function. Questions on day-to-day operations in the prison system will continue to be the political responsibility of the Minister in general terms. The detail of the precise answering of questions about individual executive decisions will be dealt with in the legislation. There would be little point in setting up an executive agency if the Minister was to retain responsibility for everything. That would mean that every decision, however minor, would have to be checked with the Minister. The precise balance and the location of the line between the responsibilities of the executive agency and the Minister will be set in the legislation. The Government would have no difficulty in having discussions at the appropriate committee. It would welcome representations and be happy to hear the views of the Opposition and others on the detail of the legislation while it is being prepared.
That is a good idea but it shows there is no real thinking on the matter and that the decision was taken only yesterday.
Fire brigade action.
Policy will be set by officials in the Department of Justice. People in the media have been led to believe that the policy unit will be independent. It will be staffed by officials of the Department of Justice.
The Chair has allowed much latitude on this matter but I must dissuade Members from the notion that we can debate the detail now. A debate is about to ensue.
Yesterday the Taoiseach used five words, "further details will be announced shortly". He also stated that this agency will be established within a week on a non-statutory basis. What type of agency will be in existence next Wednesday?
The Minister for Justice is dealing with that matter with all expedition. Policy is set by the Minister and the Government, not by officials. That will continue to be the case following the establishment of the relevant agencies. In some instances responsibility for the execution of policy will be retained within the Department and, in others, delegated to the executive agencies which will be independent. The setting of policy is and always must be a matter for the Minister who is accountable to the Dáil for policy matters.
As the Taoiseach knows full well, in the case of statutory agencies, policy and day-to-day matters are clearly defined. This means that in future there will be few opportunities to hold the Minister accountable to the House. Every day my colleagues receive letters stating that a matter they wish to raise is a day-to-day matter for the agency concerned.
Let us avoid a debate now.
I hope any valid points made at the committee will be taken on board by the Taoiseach.
I do not wish to anticipate the discussion at the committee but if one takes the position that the Minister is responsible for everything that happens on a day-to-day basis, one does not set up an executive body. Any Deputy who thinks for more than ten seconds about the matter will understand that. It would be inconsistent to have the Minister responsible for every day-to-day issue. Considerable work has already been done in both instances in the Department of Justice and there is a willingness to discuss the matter at the appropriate committee at a reasonably early date.
While I welcome the Government's decision to establish an independent courts service, it is hard not to be cynical because when I asked the Taoiseach about this matter last Thursday he said it was not relevant to what had happened overnight.
It is now.
When will the Government bring forward the proposed reforms to the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924? May I take it that Ministers will still be responsible for the running of their own offices?
What I said last week — the Deputy understood what I said — is not what she is now representing me as having said. What I said was that there was no reflection on the existing system of administration of the courts by the courts themselves in anything we were saying or any inquiry we were instituting. From the Deputy's demeanour, I knew she understood what I meant. She is distorting in a politically unprincipled way what I said.
This is the wrong week for the Taoiseach to talk about political principles.
Why was the Taoiseach not in a position to give me a commitment on those matters last Thursday? What has changed in the meantime?
The reason I was not in a position to do so was that the Government had not decided the matter. It decided it yesterday. It was not possible for me to anticipate Government decisions. As any Deputy who has served in Cabinet will understand, the Government acts as a collective authority.
The Tánaiste was away.
Our man in Cairo.
A Deputy
The Pharaoh.
(Interruptions.)
In the context of the review of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, is it intended to absolve Ministers from administrative responsibility for their Departments?
The functions of Ministers, secretaries and officials at different levels will be set out in detail in the legislation.
When?
Considerable work has been done in the context of the strategic management initiative where there are statements of an administrative kind which do not have a statutory base as to the respective delegated authority of the different levels of the service. That matter will be dealt with in full in the legislation. The Deputy should await its publication before engaging in a detailed commentary on it. It is being drafted as a matter of priority.
Another priority.
What is the point of changing the law when the Minister for Justice will not obey the present law?
This is not Question Time.
The Minister for Justice respects and obeys the law.
Is legislation required to allay the great uncertainty about the petitioning system whereby people may be arrested in spite of petitions with regard to their fines?
Who brought that about?
Let us conform to parliamentary language.
To the best of my knowledge, the matter raised by the Deputy does not require legislation and is being dealt with appropriately. An indexation of fines Bill is at an early stage of preparation and any concerns the Deputy, or others, may have about the matter to which he has referred may be dealt with in the context of that legislation.
In view of the reforms promised by the Taoiseach yesterday evening, is he prepared to give an assurance that when those reforms have been put in place some member of the Government will continue to be accountable to this House for the execution of policy on courts and prisons, two major areas of policy in the Department of Justice?
The Minister for Justice and Ministers in other Departments under which executive agencies operate will continue to be responsible for setting policy in the agencies in question——
I asked about the execution of policy.
——for general supervision of the agencies' operations and for answerability thereon. As will be evident from the legislation, it would not be possible to set up an executive agency that would have a degree of freedom if the Minister continues to be responsible for every day-to-day operation because every decision would have to be referred all the way up the line. Deputy O'Dea understands that in those circumstances there would be no point setting up an executive agency. I have already answered Deputy Ahern on that matter. There will continue to be political answerability. I am happy to discuss with the relevant Dáil committee the issue of the agencies concerned and their competences. The matter will be further open for discussion and appropriate amendment when it is presented to the Dáil, which will be as soon as possible.
The Taoiseach did not answer my question on the Ministers and Secretaries Act. When does the Government propose to amend that Act?
I answered questions on that matter in recent weeks and indicated that I intend to see that legislation enacted during the current term of the Government.
Given that under the Constitution the Cabinet is collectively responsible for decisions, will the Taoiseach clarify last night's remarks by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform that the Attorney General informed him on Friday, 1 November of the difficulties in the Department of Justice relating to the Judge Dominic Lynch affair?
I will not permit a mini Question Time.
Was the Taoiseach informed of the matter on Friday, 1 November?
The Minister for Equality and Law Reform did not say what Deputy McCreevy alleges he said; I am advised he said nothing of the kind. Furthermore, any Deputy who wishes to table questions to me about any of my responsibilities is free to do so and I will answer them.
Did the Attorney General inform the Taoiseach of this matter on Friday, 1 November?
This is not a court of law.
On a point of order, although this matter will be debated shortly the Taoiseach will not be in a position to answer those questions.
I wish to clarify, as did the Minister for Justice, that the first time I became aware of this matter was approximately 12.30 a.m. on the morning of the relevant Friday — the date is not precisely in my mind.
The Taoiseach is talking about the Wednesday.
Sorry, Thursday morning. The Minister for Justice said in the House that I was informed about this matter at approximately 12.30 a.m. on Thursday morning. That was the first time this difficulty was drawn to my attention by anybody.
Was the Taoiseach informed of the matter on Friday, 1 November?
Deputy McCreevy should resume his seat. We should proceed very quickly to the debate proper.
(Limerick East): To hide the blushes of the Opposition.
The Minister has such a brass neck, she does not know how to blush.
There will be ample time for questions and answers on this subject.
Under the proposed amendment to the ministers and secretaries legislation will the Taoiseach reassure the House that the appointment of judges will remain a matter for the Government and that no executive agency is proposed to advise judges of their appointments?
I wish to dissuade Members from putting questions in this way.
As a lawyer, the Deputy is aware that this matter is governed by the Constitution, and the Ministers and Secretaries Act cannot alter the Constitution.
In appendix C of the updated list of promised legislation being actively worked upon there is no reference to the court services agency Bill. Will the Taoiseach explain that?
As I indicated already, that matter was decided upon quite recently and it is not contained in that list.
When will the Government make a decision on Ireland's contribution to an international peacekeeping force for Zaire?
The United Nations has not decided on a mandate. There is a possibility that it will be a Chapter 7 mandate, a peace enforcement mandate, and if that is the case there is a requirement for the matter to come before the House in the form of a resolution approving Ireland's participation. Until there is a UN mandate it is not possible to make a decision on the matter to which the Deputy referred.
In his capacity as President of the European Union, will the Taoiseach indicate the steps he proposes to take to try to settle the serious dispute between the European Commission and the British Government regarding the 48 hour working time directive? The British Government has indicated it will not co-operate with the intergovernmental conference.
The relevancy of this matter to the Order of Business escapes me.
A very important summit will be held here in a few weeks——
That is even greater reason the matter should be dealt with at the proper time in accordance with the procedures of this House.
I want to make a simple point to the Taoiseach. In every Parliament in the European Union this morning questions will be put to the various Prime Ministers on the working time directive. I want to give the person responsible for the Council of Europe, the Taoiseach, an opportunity to outline the action he proposes to take to de-escalate what is potentially a serious dispute concerning a directive that must be passed next week in this and every other Parliament. The Taoiseach must have something to say about this matter.
I do, but the question must be in order.
I would like to hear it.
Question Time takes up a considerable amount of time and I resent the suggestion that we are less democratic than any other Assembly.
May I ask the Taoiseach whether he considers that the Attorney General has a constitutional duty to advise him of a constitutional crisis?
(Limerick East): It is a long time since Daniel O'Connell represented Caherciveen.
In respect of the new urgency that has entered the Government's decision-making process, a Private Members' Bill was moved in this House some time ago to change the libel laws. The Minister for Equality and Law Reform promised the Bill would be referred to the Select Committee on Legislation and Security next November. That was November 1995 and this is November 1996. What are the Government's proposals in this regard?
I dealt with that question in response to a question from Deputy McDowell. Perhaps the Deputy was not here.
That was last week. Things change.
On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle——
The Taoiseach's reply is not good enough.