Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Dec 1996

Vol. 473 No. 2

Order of Business

Minister for Finance (Mr. Quinn)

It is proposed to take the Report from the Select Committee on Legislation and Security on the Garda Síochána Bill, 1996; No. a1, the Report from the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy on a Supplementary Estimate for Public Services, 1996; No. 11, Estimates for Public Services — Votes 16, 26, 27, 29, 35 and 41; No. 12, Excess Votes 15 and 32; No. 10, motion re Video Recordings Act, 1989; No. b1, Report of the Committee of Selection; No. 1, Milk (Regulation of Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1996, amendments from the Seanad; No. 13, motion re Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Order, 1996; No. 19, Criminal Law Bill, 1996, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 20, Organisation of Working Time Bill, 1996, Second Stage (resumed); No. 21, Irish Takeover Panel Bill, 1996, Order for Report Stage and Report and Final Stages. It is also proposed to take all Stages of the Oireachtas (Miscellaneous Provisions and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) Bill, 1996, to conclude by 11 p.m. A motion to facilitate this will be moved after Question Time.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 11 p.m.; Nos. 11 and 12 shall be moved together and shall be decided without debate by one question which shall be put by the Chair and any divisions demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; Nos. 10 and b1 shall be decided without debate; the amendments from the Seanad to No. 1 shall be taken together and decided without debate by one question which shall be put by the Chair; the proceedings on No. 13 shall be brought to a conclusion within two hours and the following arrangements shall apply: the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; the Report and Final Stages of No. 19 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 4.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put by the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice; the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 20, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. tonight; the Report and Final Stages of No. 21 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put by the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment; and Private Members' Business shall be No. 45, Child Pornography Bill, 1996, Second Stage (resumed) and the proceedings on the Second Stage there of shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for a late sitting tonight agreed?

Mr. D. Ahern

The Privilege and Compellability of Witnesses Bill was raised on two occasions last week, first with the Minister for Finance and then with the Taoiseach, who gave an undertaking that the amendments to the Bill would be furnished prior to Christmas. Will the amendments be available to Members? The Minister will appreciate that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will meet today to make arrangements to set up the Buchanan sub-committee to deal with the Price Waterhouse report. It is vital that the Privilege and Compellability of Witnesses Bill is passed to allow those coming before the sub-committee to have privilege and the sub-committee to compel people to attend. Will the Minister guarantee that the amendments will be tabled before the Christmas recess?

Mr. Quinn

The Deputy is correct in his summation. The position, which is subject to confirmation after the Order of Business, is that I am not aware that the amendments are ready. If I recall correctly, the Taoiseach gave an undertaking that he would try to ensure they were published before Christmas. I am not aware if they are ready and I will inform the Deputy immediately after the Order of Business. However, it is the Government's intention to try to have this matter resolved and enacted as quickly as possible, which is the desire of all parties in the House. I do not wish to mislead the Deputy. I will find out the precise position and contact him immediately after the Order of Business.

Mr. D. Ahern

Can the Minister guarantee that the Privilege and Compellability of Witnesses Bill will be passed and enacted before the sub-committee sits?

Mr. Quinn

As the Deputy is aware, it is not for me or any Government Minister to determine when a committee will sit. We can attempt to use our influence but the matter is ultimately left exclusively to the committee to decide. We desire that this legislation be enacted as quickly as possible. As soon as the amendments are available, we will circulate them but I am not in a position to say the amendments have come back from the parliamentary draftsman.

An Ceann Comhairle

This cannot go on.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Minister has said that it is up to the committee but the Government has a majority on all committees. It is up to them to push this Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

I submit that the Whips might meet continuously on this important matter.

Mr. D. Ahern

We do and this committee has been bogged down as a result of the Government not putting down amendments. I put down 11 amendments on this Bill within a fortnight of its publication. We are waiting for those to be dealt with. We on this side of the House wish the Privilege and Compellability of Witnesses Bill to come into law before this committee's deliberations——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point effectively.

Mr. Quinn

The Executive does not control the timetable of any committee under the rules and procedures of committees. This concerns every party in the House and it is a matter of procedural fact. The committee in question, when it received the Bill for Committee Stage, decided, as it is entitled to do, to undertake a substantial review of the context in which the legislation was framed. That substantial review, as the Opposition will know, took a lot of time and the Government was not able to come forward with responses to proposed amendments because we did not receive them until late in the day.

An Ceann Comhairle

In view of the agreement on liaison in the matter, let us not try to debate this now or proceed by way of argument.

Mr. D. Ahern

Unless the House gets a commitment from the Government that this Bill will come into law prior to this committee sitting, we will have to oppose the Order of Business to protest at the Government being lethargic in bringing forward amendments.

Question, "That the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 11 p.m.," put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Nil, 63.

Tá

• Ahearn, Theresa.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bhamjee, Moosajee.
• Bhreathnach, Niamh.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Bree, Declan.
• Broughan, Thomas.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Liam.
• Burton, Joan.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Costello, Joe.
• Carwford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Brian.
• Fitzgerald, Eithne.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McDowell, Derek.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Mulvihill, John.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Penrose, William.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, John.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Upton, Pat.
• Walsh, Éamon.

Níl

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, David.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Brennan, Matt.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Ellis, John.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Flood, Chris.
• Foley, Denis.
• Foxe, Tom.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hughes, Séamus.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, James.
• Moffatt, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Nolan, M.J.
• ó Cuív, Éamon.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donnell, Liz.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Power, Seán.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, D. Ahern and Callely.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 11 and 12 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 10 and b1 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 1, amendments from the Seanad, satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 13 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 19 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 20 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 21 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Private Members' business satisfactory? Agreed.

We now turn to matters relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. B. Ahern

I understand the Government will accept the Bill introduced in Private Member's time. Is that correct?

Mr. Quinn

I am informed the Government will not oppose it.

Mr. B. Ahern

As it is Christmas we will not argue about that. However, when the Government accepts a Private Members' Bill, in this case in the names of my colleagues Deputy O'Donoghue and Deputy Eoin Ryan, the Minister should be gracious enough not to argue how legally flawed it is.

Mr. D. Ahern

It is not flawed.

Mr. B. Ahern

It is either a good or bad Bill.

Mr. Quinn

I would not like to mislead the Leader of the Opposition. I am informed that the Ministers whose Departments have responsibility in the area covered by the Bill will not vote against it. However, they will accept some but not all its provisions and will incorporate them in Government legislation. I do not want to give the impression on behalf of the Government that, by not voting against the Bill, it was accepting it in its entirety.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us wait until we discuss the Bill.

Miss Harney

Will the Government, when it has considered and finalised the leaders' allowances today, publish the details in the interests of openness and taking the press out of its misery? The figures have been given to the leaders of the Opposition on a confidential basis but they should be published.

Secondly, will the Government introduce legislation to provide for the mandatory reporting of child sex abuse?

Mr. Quinn

With regard to the first item, the Bill, when finally cleared by Government today, will be circulated to all Deputies. A confidential provisional copy has been made available and all details will be made available to everyone. The Bill, which I will introduce, will be debated in the House. I will be prepared to answer any question from any quarter. If anyone in the media wishes to pose a question through the facilities of this Chamber, I will be more than happy in the interests of democracy to answer. I am told that the Deputy's second question was answered yesterday.

Miss Harney

The Minister said that he will make a decision before the end of the year but he did not say whether he would make a provision for the mandatory reporting of child sex abuse.

Mr. Quinn

This is a specific detail of legislation and I understand that a decision and an announcement are imminent.

Mr. McCreevy

Will the Minister take the opportunity to make it known to the public that the Oireachtas (Miscellaneous Provisions and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices) Bill, 1996, is not a smash and grab raid as was inferred this morning? The impression was given that we were going to pass the Bill tonight and people were going to turn up with guns to collect their money on Friday. I am glad the Minister has taken the opportunity of correcting that and I hope other Members will contribute likewise to the Bill.

Mr. Quinn

The provisions in relation to Members' allowances amounting to approximately £500,000 were included in the estimates last year. If the media checked their files they would see that they have already reported extensively on that matter.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Book of Estimates is being debated in the House tomorrow and the public service agreement was concluded last week. Will the Minister tell the House if the post-budget ceiling of £13,014 million remains or is there a new figure?

Mr. Quinn

There is a figure which has yet to be finalised. I will be in a position to address that question during tomorrow's debate.

Mr. R. Burke

A new Secretary General has been appointed by the United Nations. I have no doubt that the Government has congratulated Kofi Annan. The United Nations is so important to world peace that this House should also send him a note of good wishes. We should also send a note of thanks to Boutros Boutros-Ghali for the work he has done on behalf of humanity. This note should not only be from the Government but from this Parliament because the people have great respect for the United Nations.

Ireland has an honourable tradition of its NGOs working abroad. There was a horrendous murder of six Red Cross workers in Grozny yesterday. Luckily, two Irish aid workers escaped but we should communicate the House's sympathy to the Red Cross internationally and nationally.

Mr. Quinn

On behalf of the Government I accept both of Deputy Burke's proposals. Through the appropriate channels we will convey our congratulations to the new Secretary General of the United Nations. Coming from a country like Ireland, which has supported the work of the United Nations since membership in the mid-1950s, such congratulations will be well received. We will also send a note of encouragement and support to the Red Cross.

Mr. O'Dea

Paragraph 52 of A Government of Renewal, the rainbow's birth certificate, headed "Cabinet Confidentiality", states: "The relaxation of absolute confidentiality in all circumstances will be put to the people by way of a referendum at the earliest possible opportunity". That was written two years ago. What is the Government doing about it?

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach has explained this on a number of occasions but I will try to do so again for the benefit of the Deputy. It was and is the intention of the Government to do precisely what is set out in the programme for renewal. The legal advice, which we shared with this House, stated that this was complex and that it was not possible for the Government to include it in the bail referendum.

Mr. Davern

Another one bites the dust.

Mr. Quinn

It is still the Government's intention to deal with this matter. My one undertaking to the Deputy is that we will not take as long to resolve the matter as he took with the matters he dealt with in the Department of Justice.

Mr. D. Ahern

At least he opened his mail.

Dr. Woods

The Taoiseach repeatedly promised us that we would have the Equal Status Bill before the end of this session. When can we expect to see this Bill? According to the Minister, the Employment Equality Bill is stalled due to consultations with the Attorney General. When will that Bill return to the House? Most Deputies have received a circular which shows that the income of the charitable lotteries has reduced from £10 million to £4.5 million. Under section 33 (2) of the National Lottery Act, 1996, will the Minister raise the ceiling for those lotteries while the main Bill is being considered?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter can wait for another time. However, the first two matters are relevant.

Mr. Quinn

I understand that the third matter is going to committee in a number of weeks and can be addressed there. Any member of the committee can propose an amendment suggested by the Deputy.

The Equal Status Bill is virtually complete and will come before Government very shortly. The question as to when it is published is a matter for the Cabinet to decide. Legal consideration is still being given to the amendment which will be brought in by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform on Report Stage.

Mr. Martin

This morning the Minister for Education published a new Universities Bill to replace the Bill drafted in August. The number of amendments I received constitute in essence a new Bill. Committee Stage is due tomorrow at 11 a.m. We hope there will be no attempt to guillotine the legislation and that we will be given adequate time to go through these amendments, given the poor drafting of the previous Bill.

Mr. Quinn

Owing to either the Deputy's enthusiasm or lack of graciousness he does not realise that this Minister has brought forward more reforming legislation in this area than any other Minister for Education since the foundation of this State.

Mr. Martin

This is the first Bill.

Mr. R. Burke

Do I detect a raw nerve?

Mr. Martin

This is the only Bill.

Mr. Quinn

The Deputy cannot have it both ways. He cannot have it on the basis that this House decides on amendments and accuse the Minister of being a dictator. The Minister has been a perfect democrat in a way some day the Deputy might learn to be.

An Ceann Comhairle

Shouting is a futile exercise.

Mr. Martin

I agree. On a point of order, this is the first Bill.

Mr. Callely

Will the Minister make a statement to clarify the crazy position that a 73-year-old man may be prosecuted for using a firearm to protect himself from an intruder? Is the Minister aware of the public outrage at this?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should raise that matter in another way.

Mr. Cowen

Yesterday I raised the issue of whether the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry will come to the House before the Christmas recess. He indicated in replies to questions that there will be changes in the headage payments scheme later in the week, presumably after the Dáil has risen. It shows contempt for the House if the Minister for Agriculture is not prepared to come here to defend the measure he is about to take——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not make a speech.

Mr. Cowen

Headage payments will be cut by £14 million and many farmers may be rendered ineligible for payments. They will find out about this through a press release rather than through the Minister informing the House. The Minister for Finance has been a proponent of openness, transparency and accountability and he has practised it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not continue.

Mr. Cowen

Presumably, I am entitled to ask if the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry will come to the House to defend the decision he will take. May I have the courtesy of a reply?

Mr. J. Higgins

Wait and see.

Mr. Quinn

I can understand the Deputy's concern. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry is in Brussels performing one of his last responsibilities under what has been a successful EU Presidency. I remind the House where the headage payments come from.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister need not lecture me on agriculture.

Mr. Quinn

I would not wish to do so. I was informing the Deputy of parliamentary obligations involved in the EU Presidency, of which he might not be aware. The Minister is not here today for that reason. I do not know what his plans are but I will convey to him the Deputy's desire that he should be in the House tomorrow.

Mr. S. Brennan

For over a year a road transport Bill has been promised to make major improvements to the city bus services. When will the legislation be put before the House? I gather it is the cause of much dispute between the Government parties based on ideological problems.

Mr. Stagg

The Deputy promised it.

Mr. Quinn

I am informed it will be published in February next year.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I admire the gallantry of the Minister for Finance, it is very desirable.

Mr. Quinn

It was merely a political observation of fact.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I call it gallantry. On proposed legislation, will there be a national insurance plan for haulage companies whose goods and vehicles are increasingly coming under attack in Europe?

Mr. Quinn

There is no legislation promised.

Mr. Davern

Under proposed legislation, has any action been taken to ensure that 23 Members of this House are no longer discriminated against with regard to facilities for Members? Will the Minister take up the matter with his party colleague, Senator Magner, to ensure equal opportunity for lady Members in the Members' bar.

Mrs. O'Rourke

There is no bathroom.

Mr. Davern

I have confidence in the Ceann Comhairle to deal with the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I wish I knew something about it.

Mr. Quinn

I will accompany the Ceann Comhairle to the Members' bar to explore the matter.