Vol. 475 No. 5
2 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the indicators of human well being and social progress which are used by the CSO, other than GNP and GDP, in view of the fact that these established measurements count motor accidents as a benefit to society and care of the elderly as a negative cost. [4496/97]
Gross domestic product and gross national product are internationally recognised measurements of the value of goods and services produced in the country and of the income accruing to residents. They are compiled in accordance with international standards and conventions but are not intended to be measurements of welfare.
In addition to other agencies the Central Statistics Office produces a wide range of statistics measuring the economic and social conditions of the country and its people. The Government has also agreed that the Central Statistics Office should undertake a new quarterly national household survey beginning in the middle of this year. This new survey will replace the annual Labour Force Survey and will cover social topics on a rotating modular basis as well as labour market information. In his question the Deputy refers to motor accidents and unpaid work, implying that motor accidents serve to increase the level of GDP and GNP while care of the elderly reduces them. Unfortunately the reality of life is that motor accidents do occur. Fortunately, in reacting to and dealing with them there are in place folseach' low-up services such as help, security, fire services, legal car repair and others involving many workers. The ill-effects of accidents are, therefore, counted as part of output and thus contribute to GDP and GNP. As regards care of the elderly, the Deputy is obviously concerned with voluntary care because the services of paid carers are counted in output, GDP and GNP but voluntary care services, like other unpaid care work, neither add to nor subtract from GDP and GNP.
This question arose from a previous supplementary question of mine and I thank the Minister of State for his reply. Good GDP figures send the financial markets into a frenzy of delight but does the Minister agree that the effects of good economic growth are much more complicated for men and women on the street? Has the CSO specifically considered compiling or it is prepared to compile a range of figures comparable to GDP and GNP along the lines of figures compiled in other countries as a "Genuine Progress Indicator", which measure car accidents as defensive expenditure, values work in the home and the voluntary sector and measures the effects of crime? That would give a far truer measure of progress. Given that the Society of St. Vincent de Paul continually states that the gap between rich and poor is getting wider, does that Minister think it necessary to be more accurate in measuring progress?
Fundamentally I agree with the Deputy's observations. GDP and GNP are essentially economic barometers or measurements. As to having a wider range of social and environmental indicators, the Government is conscious of the need to enhance the measurement indicators and introduce new measurement procedures, for example, the quarterly household survey. This will be done on a modular basis and on different occasions we will examine different aspects of the social picture.
The policy agreement A Government of Renewal stated that the Government was committed to work towards a new set of indicators of sustainable economic development which will take account of environmental and social factors and these indicators would be used alongside the existing measurements of economic activity such as GDP, GNP, etc.
In April 1996 the ESRI published a study, commissioned by the Department of the Environment, on the issues and options arising in connection with this commitment. It dealt with environmental and social issues. As regards environmental indicators, a work programme towards the definition of sustainable development indicators is being developed by the Department of the Environment; it is being finalised and will be completed shortly. As regards social indicators, the ESRI study discussed their selection and quantification and recommended the adoption of the OECD list of social indicators as a basis for a scheme for Ireland. These seek to go beyond the traditional national accounting measures by focusing on the distribution of resources and extending measurement to include non-economic aspects. The ESRI noted that, while much of the information for several of these indicators is already available for Ireland, it is in many cases available only at long-term intervals — for example, the census of population — or on a basis which makes it less comparable with other countries.
The quarterly household survey will deal with social problems such as crime, other social areas such as income, leisure, household consumption, transport, social mobility, social contact, housing and the general work environment. By and large, we are introducing a more comprehensive range of measurements to deal with the points the Deputy makes.
As regards unwaged work, particularly work which up to now has not been quantified in economic or social terms — the work of housewives or others who work in the home — this was addressed in Partnership 2000 for inclusion under employment and competitiveness. Paragraph 5.11 commits us to the development of statistical methods to evaluate the full extent of the contribution of unpaid work, mainly done by women and their contribution to the national economy, including their contributions to the remunerated and domestic sectors, will be undertaken during the course of the Partnership.
On foot of this commitment the CSO will undertake a pilot time-use survey using draft questionnaires and methods prepared by Eurostat. Such surveys are designed to measure how people allocate their time to different social and economic activities. The 1997 pilot survey will use only a relatively small sample and will therefore not produce comprehensive results. It is designed mainly to establish the feasibility and cost of conducting such a survey on a larger, national, representative basis. We are moving in that direction but it takes time to draft the modules and quantify the amount of money involved. The Government's intention is to have as accurate as possible a barometer of the relative values of work, whether waged or unwaged.
The Minister is emphasising the need to go beyond GDP and GNP but I would like to hear more about the module developed by the Department of the Environment. He said the study is likely to be finished soon but I would appreciate more definite information. Does he agree that, until such time as we have GDP, GNP and a "Genuine Progress Indicator" side by side, the urgency to tackle environmental crises will not be apparent; and, conversely, there will always be a temptation to seek economic developments damaging to human health, such as landmines and Sellafield? In GDP and GNP terms those are healthy developments but they have a huge negative effect. Will he ensure the indicator he spoke about or a better one will be given equal emphasis to GDP and GNP when it is ready?
As regards the timescale I am reliably informed we are talking about weeks rather than months and I assure the Deputy I will continue to pursue this matter with the CSO. I agree with him about setting relative factors side by side. From the point of view of providing a comprehensive profile of economic and social relativity it is desirable that we introduce the mechanisms as soon as possible and set them side by side so that we are in a position to form judgments as to the relative values. The Government is committed to this, it is mentioned in Partnership 2000, it is the subject of an ERSI report and we will continue to push forward the mechanisms to ensure we can make as valid a comparison as possible at the earliest possible date. That is all I can tell the Deputy at this stage.
My question was partly covered by Deputy Sargent. I am interested in the extent of the pilot survey the Minister spoke about and I am glad the result will be available within weeks but how comprehensive is it? If it is a small survey will the findings be of any great benefit?
From the point of view of using as accurate as possible a cross-section to give the most comprehensive possible picture, it is generally recognised that the CSO has ensured over the years that its surveys are pitched to determine accuracy. This was the experience as regards the Labour Force Survey — it covers 45,000 households in April and when cross-checked against other mechanisms it gives an accurate and comprehensive picture. I am told it is a random sample and is in the early stages of preparation. The idea was to pitch it as accurately as possible. I do not have the number of households surveyed but will determine it and convey the information to the Deputy.
When will we see the consultant's study on reducing the cost of motor insurance, which for some time has been in the possession of Deputy Rabbitte, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment?
That is another matter.
I am not aware it has been deliberately delayed. I understand it is under examination in the office of the Minister of State. I will check the details and revert to the Deputy.
Has any other country implemented the type of module or indicator to which the Minister of State referred in his reply? Has he looked at other countries who have comparative indicators? They vary significantly. The USA and other countries in Europe have done considerable work in this area. Will this form part of the study?
There is constant liaison between the CSO and similar organisations in other countries. This is crucial from the viewpoint of getting as accurate and comparative a picture as possible regarding all aspects of economic, social and environmental performance.
In compiling figures on inflation, GDP, GNP, etc., we must conform with the norms that apply in other countries. They are all compiled on the basis of a well established range of norms, practices, indicators and standards.
