Vol. 480 No. 2
1 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the additional powers, if any, he proposes to transfer to the Minister for Social Welfare to enable him to fulfil his new responsibilities as Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs; and the existing Departments from which these powers are to be transferred. [13696/97]
2 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach when he will introduce legislation to create the proposed new Department of Natural Resources. [13697/97]
3 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the person under whose direction Minister Andrews will act in exercising his ministerial responsibility for European affairs. [13698/97]
4 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the arrangements, if any, the Government proposes for the management of European affairs. [13699/97]
5 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach the changes, if any, he intends to make to the allocation of portfolios and ministerial responsibilities as outlined to Dáil Éireann following his election as Taoiseach on 26 June 1997. [13708/97]
6 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he will give details of the new arrangements for the implementation of policy in respect of science, technology and innovation; whether the office of science and technology is to be broken up; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13718/97]
7 Mr. R. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the functions in the area of science and technology which the Government proposes to transfer to the Department of Education; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13734/97]
8 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the precise sections from the Department of Tourism and Trade which have been transferred or will be transferred to the Department of Enterprise and Employment; if these include An Bord Tráchtála; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13740/97]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 8 together.
As Deputies are aware, it is the practice for changes in the responsibilities of Ministers and Departments to be made by orders under section 6 (1) of the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act, 1939, where statutory functions are concerned. Where other functions are concerned changes are effected through administrative action. Legislation will not be necessary for the changes to be effected on this occasion.
The Government made a series of orders yesterday to come into effect this week which implement most of the changes I previously outlined to the House. They will bring into effect the changed descriptions of the Ministers for, and Departments of Agriculture and Food; the Marine and Natural Resources; Arts, Heritage, the Gaeltacht and Islands; Social, Community and Family Affairs; Health and Children; Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Public Enterprise; Tourism, Sport and Recreation; Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
An order to create the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources will soon be made. Orders have also been made transferring responsibilities for forestry to the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources and trade to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Departments of Justice and Equality and Law Reform have been amalgamated. An order for the transfer of mining responsibilities to the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources is virtually completed and will, I expect, be made later this month. The Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs will have full responsibility for marriage support services; family mediation services; births, marriages and deaths registration legislation, and for progressing other issues, in particular initiatives in the community for children arising from the Commission on the Family due to report in a few months.
Other areas where I indicated transfers of administrative functions — for example, in relation to rural development, western development and local development — involve a mix of activities. These activities were undertaken variously under Statute or, in whole or in part, under European Union regulations. Others operate on a non-statutory basis. Since coming into Government I have arranged for the various activities involved to be clearly identified and for the legal basis of each to be ascertained so that the necessary action can be taken to allocate them to the appropriate Ministers within the next week or two. Administrative action has also been initiated to effect the transfer of functions in relation to sport and the islands.
It is my intention to retain the office of science and technology on a broadly similar footing to that which obtains at present but I am taking steps to ensure the alignment distribution of responsibilities between the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Education is redesigned. By doing that we intend to develop a new science focus in the Department of Education, deliver a stronger technology focus at second level, streamline the wide research work of the third level institutions and devise an education response to any emerging skills gap in this area.
The Minister for Defence, in addition to his Cabinet responsibilities, will deputise as necessary for the Minister for Foreign Affairs at the General Affairs Council and other European Union meetings. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Defence, as heretofore and as required, will attend meetings of the Western European Union as observers. In regard to Northern Ireland matters the Minister for Defence will act as alternate for the Minister for Foreign Affairs from time to time at the request of the Taoiseach.
As Taoiseach I will continue to have a major function in European affairs and Northern Ireland. As the statement of strategy of the Department of the Taoiseach states, the Taoiseach has a leadership role and a corresponding involvement in all major policy areas, principally Northern Ireland, economic, employment and social issues and European and wider international policy. I intend to discharge this role to the full.
Why did the Taoiseach change his mind about allocating responsibility for European affairs to Deputy Andrews under the direction of Deputy Burke, the Minister for Foreign Affairs? Was this dithering on his part?
I sought to ensure that, unlike in the past, there would be a consistency in who would represent the Minister for Foreign Affairs at various meetings. There were two ways to do that. One was to have a Minister for European Affairs and legislate for it or alternatively, to designate the Minister for Defence when appropriate to take the position. The latter is a satisfactory way of dealing with the matter. It is also satisfactory that at either European or Northern Ireland meetings, which I hope will be held several days a week, there will be consistency in who represents the Government.
The Taoiseach has not appointed a Minister of State to the Department of Social Welfare. Why not, given that it is one of the largest Departments? Does he believe it would have made more sense to allocate Minister of State responsibility for children to the Department given that it delivers support primarily to families and children and the Commission on the Family will report to it?
The Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs will deal with the Commission on the Family. Responsibility for children will be shared by a number of Departments. Legislation will be dealt with by the Department of Justice while many other matters will be dealt with by the Department of Health and, as in the past, the Minister of State will have a co-ordinating role because the matter involves at least four Departments. Given that point of view the Deputy is correct. I discussed the issue of a Minister of State but for the foreseeable future the Minister is happy to engage himself in those responsibilities. Given that some of the other issues such as local development and drugs initiatives are being linked to the Department of Tourism and Sport it will mean that the Minister of State will be involved in some of the issues raised by the Deputies. As Taoiseach I will chair the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion. I want to ensure the work initiated by the previous Government which involves five or six Departments moves forward.
Did the Taoiseach seek and obtain advice from the Attorney General prior to his announcement of the various responsibilities and, if so, will he indicate the advice of the Attorney General in that respect?
I did not. Because of the closeness of the position I got a short briefing note from the Cabinet Secretariat on the functions. I did not have access to everybody, as happened on previous occasions, to discuss particular functions. The briefing note I received from the Cabinet Secretariat was quite helpful. On taking up office on the first day I went through each of the functions, whether orders or delegated functions, to see what was the best way to deal with these issues.
Do I take it that on the day of the Taoiseach's election — on which I congratulate him — the proposed allocation of responsibilities, which did not turn out to be operational or constitutional, was decided by him without the advice of the designate Attorney General?
The Deputy can take it that is correct. When I checked out the matter the previous week, because of the position of the Government I had not got access to these issues in the normal way but I did get a briefing note. On other matters on which we sought advice from the outgoing Attorney General he was extremely helpful. On the constitutionality question, Deputy Spring pointed out the last day that legislation would be required. That proved to be correct. Therefore, it was a matter of dealing with it either by legislation or the way I sought to deal with it immediately, which was adequate. It had been pointed out to me by numerous parties that the concept of having a different person was not a good one. This is not a criticism of anybody. It was better to have the same person and in this case the Minister for Defence who is very capable and can stand in on these matters. I am very anxious that he should do so.
Does the Taoiseach accept he made a mistake in the initial announcement in regard to European Affairs?
I believe I could have dealt with it either way. To avoid confusion I quickly moved to deal with it in the way I did. I could have done it the other way.
The Taoiseach did make a mistake.
The advice from the Attorney General was that I could legislate for it. That would have meant waiting until the autumn and I was not prepared to do that.
The Taoiseach did make a mistake.
The Taoiseach is proposing to change the name of the Department of Social Welfare to the Department of Social, Family and Community Affairs. What is the estimated cost of the proposed change? Will it be borne by the Department and will an additional allocation be made available? Given the size of that Department, the number of buildings it has and the amount of signage and documentation, etc. which will have to be changed, will there be an additional allocation to cover the cost of such changes? If the Taoiseach does not have the information, perhaps he will arrange for it to be conveyed to me.
Is it intended that the Department will give greater emphasis than it already does to family and community affairs? If so, will the Taoiseach agree this will require the appointment of a Minister of State to that Department to carry the burden of that work? Does he agree that at the least the current Minister of State with responsibility for children's affairs might be allocated to the Department of Social Welfare?
I will certainly consider that. The Minister of State with responsibility for children will have a co-ordinating role. If it makes more sense to make orders across Departments, I will arrange that. Deputy Currie did that job successfully in the past. I have no objection to that, because different matters relating to children are dealt with by different Departments.
It was suggested that if all documentation, signs, etc. were to be changed immediately it could cost up to £2 million. The Minister has no intention of doing that. Existing stationery and other data will be used, and that will minimise the cost.
Was this really well thought out?
The Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs was extremely well thought out. The document put forward by my party many months ago was an excellent document that well researched the issues of the family and built on the excellent work of the Department of Social Welfare which continued under Deputy De Rossa. It was discussed with the relevant agencies throughout the country and looked at ways to expand the role of the Department, not diminish its responsibilities. The title came from that document, and we were glad to incorporate it in the title of the Department and to work on the expansion of its role.
If this proposal was very well thought out, how is it the Taoiseach is proposing to allocate responsibility for children to one Minister and responsibility for the family to another? Could there be any more evidence than this that it has not been thought out?
The Department of Social Welfare always had responsibility for the family, although it was not mentioned in its title. The Children Bill was prepared in the Department of Justice, matters relating to the education of children are dealt with in the Department of Education, and other issues relating to children are dealt with by other Departments. What I hope to do is to co-ordinate these matters.
Is the Taoiseach aware that, because of the nature of the job of the Minister for Foreign Affairs who may have to go to another meeting at short notice, it is normal practice for the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs to accompany him to General Affairs Council meetings? Is it the Taoiseach's intention that the Minister for Defence will accompany the Minister for Foreign Affairs at General Affairs Council meetings?
Following setting up the Task Force on Communicating Europe, as recommended by the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, and which was chaired by me, is it intended the Minister for Defence, Deputy Andrews, will chair it, as we are to have a referendum on the Amsterdam Treaty and it will be important to ensure that the task force continues its work?
The Minister for Foreign Affairs will have responsibility for European matters. If he cannot attend meetings, his Minister of State will attend. At certain meetings the Minister for Defence will act as an alternate. On the question of the Task Force on Communicating Europe, I have already transferred its role to the Department of Foreign Affairs.
Why did the Taoiseach change his mind about the role of the Minister of State with responsibility for science and technology? While I welcome the change I am sure many people would like to be reassured as to the policy considerations that caused the change. Will the Minister for Education still be known as the Minister for Education and Science — as announced on the night the Government was formed — even though he is now reposed in the Department of Enterprise and Employment?
The Minister of State will be involved in both Departments. As Deputy Rabbitte knows, there are many important considerations in this brief. In the past week I have had a number of meetings with representatives from the Departments of Education and Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Minister of State's responsibility in both Departments will ensure our education system responds dynamically to existing opportunities. It is a matter for the Department of Education to ensure we produce graduates in the area of science and technology while at the same time the enterprise sector must harness new technologies. The Minister of State will have responsibility in both those areas. It would not make sense to take enterprise matters out of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or to take educational matters out of the Department of Education. Perhaps in the future they can be dealt with under one Department. For the first time in many years key people from the industry sector were invited to the Department of Education last week to discuss this matter. I also held discussions with the Tánaiste. The working group set up by Deputy Rabbitte last year suggested the Taoiseach should also be involved in this area. It was suggested the matter should be dealt with by the Department of the Taoiseach. I will implement the recommendation in that report to hold meetings with the people involved on a quarterly basis. We are not changing what already exists. We are trying to develop the educational aspect of science and technology because it is through education that we will produce people with the necessary qualifications to fill jobs in that area. This sensible arrangement has the agreement of all the people involved.
What about the Minister for Education?
What functions in the Department of Education does the Taoiseach intend to delegate to the Minister of State with responsibility for science and technology? Will he have responsibility for curriculum reform? Will he develop a primary school curriculum in the area of science? What role will the Minister of State play in the Department of Education?
I hope the Minister of State will assist in the development of technology in first, second and third level education. As pointed out in the report, much work needs to be done and the Minister will have the necessary powers to do it.
Surely the role of technology in education goes way beyond what the Taoiseach has in mind for the Minister of State. Technology is used in teaching practically all subjects. What specific functions will be assigned to the new Minister of State?
He will have specific tasks but he should not have a direct influence in the curriculum. He can put forward proposals. We have already given a commitment to develop technology in all primary and secondary schools. We will designate to the Minister of State whatever functions are necessary to achieve that. He has already started work on a number of areas identified as needing development. Responsibility for the curriculum will remain a matter for the Minister for Education.
As the Taoiseach is in a mode of reconsideration, will he reconsider putting the term "culture" back into the ministry, which loosely replaces the ministry I had the honour to hold for a brief period? Will he tell the House why the word "culture" was dropped? Given the gains made in advancing the case of Irish culture internationally, the work of the cultural council in Europe and that the drift of the title of such departments in Europe is towards culture ministries, why did the Taoiseach take the narrow British definition of the ministry? For example, the word "contemporary" could be excluded from the present title. Would it not be more inclusive and make good sense for the reasons I put forward for the Taoiseach, even at this stage, to consider restoring the term "culture" to the ministry?
The Deputy made that point previously and I said I would look at it. The role and functions of the Department are described in the document he prepared, statement of strategy in the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. It states that the Department's main areas of responsibility may be brought together under the combined concepts of culture and heritage in the broadest sense as signified by the unifying word "oidhreacht" which incorporates the Irish language into our definition of culture in an explicit way as a major cultural force in our society. The meaning of the word "oidhreacht" is heritage. All the functions there are encompassed in that. Having examined the Deputy's strategy document I do not see the point in changing the title.
The word "culture" was in two paragraphs in the Strategic Management Initiative document from which the Taoiseach quoted. If I were to use the word so frequently I would probably be criticised today for it. The removal of the word "culture" from the ministry was extraordinary. It was included in the title of the Department to make clear who had responsibility for cultural industries. Who has responsibility for them now? What will be the role of the Minister with responsibility for culture and diversity in arguments about broadcasting and the media? What will the person who attends cultural council meetings be called? How will rural-urban demands, popular culture, contemporary culture and public culture be handled?
The Minister for Defence will look after that.
Fianna Fáil has decided that the word "oidhreacht" recommends itself to it as a gesture. When the Taoiseach reconsiders the full document will he bear in mind that the national and international interest will be served for many reasons by reconsidering the title? I will leave it at that. While I support and wish my successor well, it is a complete misconstruction of the ument and the term "oidhreacht" to suggest that it offers an opportunity to destroy the word "culture" when everyone welcomed it and its inclusion followed the international direction.
I note what the Deputy stated, but all the powers and functions that existed will continue to be held by the Minister, Deputy de Valera. It is argued that the word "heritage" allows a broader definition and that argument was made in the Deputy's strategy document.
It was not argued by me.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reference to my success as Minister with responsibility for children. Will he accept that a large part of that success was due to the fact that I had a co-ordinating role in the Departments of Health, Education and Justice? How will a Minister based in the Department of Health co-ordinate activities in the other two Departments, particularly in relation to the Children Bill, without having a position in those two Departments? The Children Bill was in gestation for more than 20 years. The reason it took so long was precisely because there was not a co-ordinating role.
I have acknowledged the co-ordinating role will be useful in three Departments but it could be useful in five Departments. It is a question of what can be done to include all the various blocs under the Minister of State with responsibility for children who will deal with the legislation.
