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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Sep 1997

Vol. 480 No. 5

Report of Tribunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Payments) and Establishment of Tribunal of Inquiry: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann:
— welcomes the publication of the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry
(Dunnes Payments),
— thanks the Chairman and the legal and administrative teams for their work in conducting the Inquiry, and
— welcomes the Government's proposal to establish a further Tribunalof Inquiry.
— (The Taoiseach).

(Mayo): I thank the Tánaiste for allowing me conclude. It is extraordinary that Deputy Smith, who had the pleasure of endorsing the suitability of the Masris from his intimate acquaintance with them, is still shy in telling us when and how he first met them and his knowledge of their personal and commercial background, those types of mundane administrative details as distinct from his more personal intimacy with the family. It is not too late to tax Deputy Smith's powers of memory recall to answer that set of basic questions. The Department over which Deputy Smith presided is very assiduous in relation to one square foot of a new house grant.

The Reynolds family would not be selling pet food today had it not been for the soft loan given to them in exchange for two passports. I am happy that the company survived. I pass the premises three or four times each week and externally it is as fine an industrial premises as one could get. However, Deputy Reynolds as Taoiseach stated on 30 May 1994 that he "had not been involved in any way in the running of the company for up to 14 years". In June 1994 Deputy Reynolds delivered a speech in Portlaoise in which he explained that he had "as required an arm's length relationship with that company [C&D] since I took ministerial office so I cannot be accountable for and have no knowledge of its day to day business".

Deputy Reynolds was Minister for Industry and Commerce and I have a letter from him dated 28 June 1992, written on notepaper headed with his home address of Mount Carmel House, Dublin Road, Longford, to a Mr. Norman Spence, Pembrokeshire, Wales in which he informs Mr. Spence that he can no longer be kept on the C&D pet food team. How is that for detachment? It is quite clear that Deputy Reynolds was not only involved in the business while Minister for Industry and Commerce, but sentences and messages were delivered in the name of the company not in terms of "we" or "the company" but in terms of "I regret", "as I have said before", "I must point out" and "I trust".

Deputy Reynolds was very involved in the most minute details of his family business. That would have been commendable had he not been Minister and the major shareholder in the company, had he not been the beneficiary of a softer than soft loan and had he not denied his retention of his involvement with the company.

These questions are not vexatious and they are certainly not trivial. They are not asked out of simple curiosity. They should be asked and, despite being asked in the past, they have not been answered. There is too much involved here to allow them to go unanswered any longer. There is too much doubt, ambiguity, evasiveness and contraction.

On 10 December last, the Progressive Democrats moved a motion in this House to establish a tribunal to inquire into payments to politicians by Dunnes Stores. Introducing that motion, Deputy Bobby Molloy spoke of the public's right to know and of the need to uphold the integrity of our democratic system. He stated correctly that a tribunal of inquiry was essential if we were to get to the truth. That motion was voted down by the three parties then in Government. The attitude of the rainbow coalition was summed up well by the Leader of Democratic Left, Deputy De Rossa, in his contribution. He stated:

A tribunal of inquiry along the lines proposed by the Progressive Democrats would be a potential disaster. It is a recipe for prolonged hearings, with huge legal bills, and the real prospect of journalists ending up in jail, with no guarantee of satisfactory or complete answers at the end of the process.

I am glad to say that Deputy De Rossa was wrong. Judge McCracken did an excellent job and every voter and taxpayer owes him a great debt of gratitude. We owe a debt of gratitude also to the press, without whose efforts this whole scandal might never have been exposed. Judge McCracken gave us satisfactory answers. The tribunal was not a disaster. We did not have prolonged hearings. Journalists did not go to jail.

Judge McCracken gave us satisfactory answers but he was not always able to give us complete answers. That is the reason we need another tribunal and why the Government parties agreed so readily to the establishment of another tribunal. We were anxious also to reach the maximum amount of agreement with the Opposition parties. Nobody has any morally superior authority in relation to these issues. Later, when we deal with the individual amendments, the Government will be in a position to accept a number of them.

The new tribunal will have to investigate fully the relationship between Dunnes Stores and Deputy Michael Lowry — a relationship described by Judge McCracken as extraordinary, unorthodox and unhealthy. The new tribunal will have to investigate the financial mystery whereby Mr. Charles Haughey apparently managed to sustain a lavish lifestyle, a lifestyle enjoyed only by a landed aristocrat, on the relatively modest salary of an elected politician. We now know that Ben Dunne's largesse paid the bills for three years or so, but who has kept the Kinsealy show on the road for the past 30 years? The new tribunal will also have to investigate decisions made by both of these individuals while they were in Government to ascertain whether or not public favours were sold for private cash.

Tribunals of inquiry got a bad name after the hugely expensive and largely inconclusive beef tribunal. Hopefully, things have now changed. Mr. Justice Finlay showed in the hepatitis C inquiry how a tribunal could work efficiently and effectively to get at the truth with a minimum amount of cost and delay. Mr. Justice McCracken has shown that a tribunal of inquiry can function with equal efficiency and effectiveness in dealing with the complex financial interactions, many of which were specifically structured in such a way as to avoid detection and investigation. Both of these men have restored my faith in tribunals. I take this opportunity to thank Mr. Justice McCracken and his team for the excellent work they did and for the thoroughness and tenacity with which they approached their task. They have done us all in public service a great deal of good.

The McCracken tribunal would have been able to complete its work much more speedily, and at a greatly reduced cost, had Mr. Charles Haughey co-operated with the inquiry instead of engaging in deception and prevarication. I am confident the forthcoming tribunal will follow the lead set by Finlay and McCracken. The taint of sleaze or scandal must be removed once and for all from public life and that can only happen if we bring the highest ethical standards to public office. We must now banish forever the squalid stench of political payola.

We must rescue political life from the ravages of understandable cynicism. We must be able to demonstrate that those who serve in public life are honourable. The people of this Republic deserve no less and they must get it. Confidence in public life demands that elected politicians and public servants be above reproach in the decisions they make. These decisions — which often confer very large benefits and can have the most far-reaching effects — must be made without fear or favour.

For far too long our system of government and public administration was bedevilled by a climate of secrecy. This veil of secrecy has in the past fuelled a culture of nods and winks; government by fiat or fear; government tainted by the corrosiveness of mistrust and misdeed. In other words, bad government, unacceptable government. The era of sneaking regard or resigned acceptance of nods and winks, the fixer and the occupant of the inside track is over. The public has the right to expect integrity from its politicians. Constitutional democracy is based upon the political responsibility of the citizen. In electing Members to Dáil Éireann the citizen effectively delegates part of that responsibility. Those who are so entrusted by the electorate have a clear duty to be worthy of that trust. This is particularly the case in relation to those who hold ministerial office. When this trust is breached it rightly engenders mistrust, cynicism and scandal.

The shroud of mystery, the era of the antihero, involved Charles Haughey, a former distinguished Member of this House, a former Minister and former Taoiseach. By virtue of the office he held he is a member of the Council of State, is in receipt of a State pension and has the benefit of Garda security and a State car. It gives me no great pleasure to rake over the past deeds of Mr. Haughey, particularly as he is not present in the House to respond. However, I must do so as to do otherwise would be a disservice to the public, a travesty of justice and ultimately an abdication of the trust the people have placed in me.

Mr. Haughey masqueraded for almost a generation as the spirit of the nation. It is more fitting to say that he is the spectre of the nation. The report of Judge McCracken unambiguously put flesh on the ghost and the forthcoming tribunal must lay the ghost to rest. The wrongdoings of Mr. Haughey uncovered by the McCracken tribunal are of a most serious order. They are reprehensible and cannot be condoned.

The politics Mr. Haughey practised were a million miles away from the school of transparency and accountability. His were the politics of intimidation and threats. Opposition to his style of leadership was not so much discouraged as ruthlessly snuffed out. Those who dared question his leadership credentials were treated as political pariahs. I remember many days during the early 1980s seeing grown men cry. I also remember seeing a Deputy collapse and being taken to hospital because of the pressure he was under from Mr. Haughey and his friends. I will not forget those days easily. I remember too being summoned to Mr. Haughey's office to be told that if I behaved myself and supported him, if I was a good girl, then I would see preferment at some future date.

During the late 1970s and early 1980s many of us wondered at how he had managed to amass sufficient wealth to pay for a Dublin mansion, a County Kerry island, a yacht and a lifestyle which was lavish in the extreme. We may have had our suspicions but they were only that. The persistent rumours and innuendo about him remained just that until the McCracken tribunal finally shone a light on the awful truth. Charles Haughey was a kept man. We now know that one leading businessman was a generous donor.

It is clear that our knowledge of the financial gifts proffered by Ben Dunne merely scratches the surface of a lifestyle usually the preserve of multimillionaires. At page 73 of his report Judge McCracken put it succinctly when he said:

The possibility that political or financial favours could be sought in return for such gifts, or even be given without being sought, is very high, and if such gifts are permissible, they would inevitably lead in some cases to bribery and corruption.

It is clear that Ben Dunne could have used the threat of disclosure at any stage to secure favours from Mr. Haughey. That no evidence has emerged of any such favours being sought or given does not take away from the fact that Mr. Haughey left himself wide open to possible blackmail or bribery. He compromised himself to such an extent that if pressure had been applied he would have found himself cast in the role of a political puppet. In other words, the holder of the highest Government office, the leader of the Government, was a mere political pawn. His ability to perform his duties was seriously impaired by his acceptance of these gifts.

The McCracken tribunal has raised as many questions as it has answered. There is every reason to believe Mr. Dunne was just one of a number of financial sponsors of Mr. Haughey. It has been estimated the payments uncovered by the tribunal could have sustained Mr. Haughey in his lifestyle for no more that two or three years. This begs the question as to who else made financial contributions to him and for what motives. It is reasonable to assume that other contributions may not have been so apparently benign as those of Mr. Dunne.

Chapter 9 of the report delivers the most damning verdict on Mr. Haughey's treatment of the tribunal. It cites 11 separate instances where he told untruths to the tribunal. The former Taoiseach tried to lead the tribunal team a merry dance. On the eve of the tribunal appearance by Mr. Haughey there was an expectation that he would confirm much of the information that had been uncovered by then. However, those who expected a contrite or expansive Charles Haughey were to be disappointed. Page 58 of the report reveals a most remarkable lapse of memory. While accepting Mr. Ben Dunne's evidence that he was handed three cheques each amounting to £70,000 sterling in November 1991, Mr. Haughey told the tribunal he had no recollection of the meeting and had made no further inquiries. This begs the question, were contributions of more than £200,000 so normal that they could so easily be forgotten? He was given at least 11 separate opportunities to set the record straight but did not avail of any of them. The consequences of this are now a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions.

There are also alarming issues raised in respect of Mr. Haughey's liability to pay tax. It is inconceivable that he would now escape censure or sanction by the State. If he pays no penalty for his wrongdoing it will send an alarming signal to those who, for much less, have had to face the full rigours of the law.

I will refer to Deputy Lowry who does not seem to understand the concept of compliant taxpaying. If his only income was that received as a Member of this House he would know all about compliance. He would just be another PAYE taxpayer with no room for manoeuvre when it came to evading tax liability. There were no such constraints in his business dealings with Dunnes Stores. Page 32 of the McCracken tribunal report provides us with as much as we need to know about the implications of such tax-dodging for his capacity to carry out his duties as a holder of public office. Judge McCracken found his relationship with Dunnes Stores extremely disturbing. At page 70 of the report he states:

It would be very damaging if there was a public perception that a person in the position of Government Minister and member of Cabinet was able to ignore with impunity, and indeed cynically evade, both taxation and exchange control laws of the State. It is an appalling situation that a Government Minister and Chairman of a Parliamentary Party can be seen to be consistently benefiting from the black economy from shortly after the time he was first elected to Dáil Éireann.

He goes on to state, rightly, that:

If such a person can behave in this way without serious sanctions being imposed, it becomes very difficult to condemn others who similarly flout the law.

Deputy Lowry has done us all a huge disservice, especially in his attempts to explain away his conduct in his personal statement to the Dáil last December. He deliberately sought to mislead us, perhaps thinking that would be the end of the matter.

The behaviour of Deputy Lowry and Mr. Haughey is especially cynical and brings enormous discredit on both of them. No political impropriety has been uncovered but it would be naive in the extreme to think their receipt of such donations and payments did not colour their decision-making capacity.

One of the other serious matters raised by the McCracken report is the number of apparent breaches of the company law code. A dynamic enterprise policy and dynamic economy demand that we have a comprehensive and effective company law code. Business people who pay their taxes are entitled to expect that the system of corporate law under which they operate is vigorously enforced. Foreign companies choose to locate in Ireland because of the stable business environment offered and our strong regulatory regime. The new tribunal is mandated to make whatever recommendations it considers necessary for the reform of company law. We must ensure the law in this area is modern and effective so that corporate fraudsters can be stopped. The apparent breaches of company law brought to light by the McCracken tribunal have to be investigated. It is my responsibility to ensure they are and I am determined to do so.

I wish to inform the House that under section 19 of the Companies Act, 1990, I have appointed two authorised officers from my Department to examine the books of two of the companies mentioned in the tribunal report. Last Tuesday I appointed Mr. Peter Fisher to examine the books of Garuda Limited, trading as Streamline Enterprises, in Thurles, County Tipperary, and I appointed Mr. Gerard Ryan to examine the books of Celtic Helicopters Limited. The brief of both officers is to establish what evidence is available to show that either the companies, their directors or their auditors breached particular provisions of the Companies Acts. I do not intend to speculate on what specific action might be appropriate on foot of their reports. It would be inappropriate for me to make any further comment on these matters until I have received and considered these reports in full.

The tribunal report is also revealing in respect of the dealings between Dunnes Stores, Deputy Lowry and Streamline Enterprises. Mr. Justice McCracken goes so far as to describe these as "extraordinary", "unorthodox" and "unhealthy". For my part, I find these dealings deeply disturbing. They require further scrutiny.

The McCracken tribunal has demonstrated that there may very well have been breaches of company law by Dunnes Stores or its subsidiaries. I can assure the House that I am actively pursuing this matter with Dunnes Stores at present. There are a number of different approaches open to me and I expect to be in a position to make a full announcement within a matter of days in relation to this issue.

It is clear Mr. Haughey enjoyed a remarkably lavish lifestyle for a period in excess of 20 years. Ben Dunne's largesse accounts for some of it, but it would seem there were other benefactors and the public is entitled to know who they are. We cannot turn a blind eye as to the possible motives of such donors. We must examine the integrity of certain decisions made during Mr. Haughey's tenure as Taoiseach. We must also establish if the extraordinary modus operandi of Deputy Lowry in relation to his business dealings influenced or had the potential to influence any decisions he made during his term in public office. We must see if any other holders of public office received unusual payments in the relevant periods and if any benefit accrued to any such donors.

The terms of reference drawn up for the new tribunal strike the right balance. On the one hand, we cannot have an inquiry which is openended. We cannot engage in a broadly based fishing expedition, hoping that we will find Pandora's box. On the other hand a tribunal which has a narrow focus on a few specific areas runs the risk of requiring us to come back in a few months' time to establish a third inquiry.

It makes eminent sense that the first task to be undertaken by the tribunal should be the identification of donors. Once we follow the trail of donors we can quickly establish whether that trail leads to policy decisions made in the 18 year period covered by the terms of reference. There is no point in examining every controversial or debatable Government decision over a period of years. Many of them may have been based on bad judgment or have come about as a result of incompetence, but they cannot all be viewed as somehow criminal or improper in character. However, decisions that may have been made under the influence of huge, secret, personal contributions fall into a different category completely, an attempt to subvert the democratic system of Government. Elaborate concealment through offshore accounts and other such devices is a recognition both by the donors and the recipients of the impropriety of what they are doing. Those complex financial webs were obviously woven in order to evade tax.

The task for the new tribunal is to establish if the intention was to hide from view the fact that benefactors of powerful politicians became beneficiaries of Government decisions. The terms of reference proposed for the new tribunal are as comprehensive and well-drafted as they can be. They represent the clear determination of the Government that any wrongdoing will be brought to light in all its detail regardless of who or what is involved. No legislative or Government support required by the new tribunal will be lacking. I hope that the result of these painful, complex and expensive inquiries into the affairs of Mr. Haughey, Deputy Lowry and anyone else involved will be far-reaching in terms of Irish political culture.

This debate is about fundamental values that are the bedrock of democratic politics. It is about integrity, responsibility, obligation and accountability. The subject matter, and the background to it, is scandalous, unpleasant and painful. Elected politicians have been diminished in the eyes of the public by the action of their peers. The people have had their investment in the political process devalued by a very small minority.

If this second tribunal does its work with the efficiency and clarity of McCracken, the body politic and the people that it serves will be rendered a great service. The political pointscoring is irrelevant; any moral superiority, inappropriate. A genuine wish to serve the country and the public good was the motivating force that inspired earlier generations of politicians. It is no different today and must not be any different in the future. The pursuit of power for its own sake has no place in our political system. Self-enrichment has no place in our political culture. We do not need people in politics whose only interest is self-interest.

On behalf of the Government I thank all the Deputies who contributed to this debate. This has been a good debate and there has been an enormous degree of unanimity across the floor of the House. In the session to follow the Government will be accepting some of the amendments from the Opposition. In so far as we can accept amendments, we are prepared to do so.

We made it clear from the outset that we will fully implement the recommendations contained in Mr. Justice McCracken's report. I have some personal reservations about the amendment that proposes a new defined role for the Ombudsman because I believe the Ombudsman's remit is to look after the small man against the State, but the new proposed role is slightly different. The Ombudsman is now being asked to be the policeman of politicians whereas until now the Ombudsman reported to the House. I have reservations about that specific recommendation, but the Government will examine it.

In respect of the other recommendations and breaches or possible breaches of company law identified in the McCracken report, I have acted. The Government will act in so far as it can to make sure that the strong conclusions and unambiguous report of Mr. Justice McCracken and his team, for which we all owe him a great deal of gratitude, are fully respected and implemented. He has done a great service to Irish public life.

In the manner in which we have sought to establish the next tribunal, I hope we can continue to serve the public which is our duty. We want once and for all to end the taint of scandal that has surrounded some political decision-making and some politicians in the recent past. We can all be proud of those who serve in public office, whether in our system of public administration or as Members or Ministers of this House. The activities of a tiny minority of our peers have brought us all into disrepute. We do not deserve that and it is our duty to make sure that we no longer continue to accept it. In so far as the new tribunal will be able to reveal some further matters, I hope it will bring to an end the era of scandal and sleaze and that we will see heavy sanctions taken against Mr. Haughey and Deputy Lowry. That is what the public expect and they expect in so far as we can in our decision-making that we should honour in full the spirit and letter of the law. That is what the Government intends to do.

The Minister for Finance will deal with the various amendments. I hope that for the next hour and a half before we vote at 4.30 p.m., if there is a vote, the debate will be conducted in the spirit in which it has been conducted since it began yesterday.

Question put and agreed to.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann

Bearing in mind serious public concern arising from the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Payments) published on 25 August, 1997, which established that irregular payments were made to and benefits conferred on certain persons who were members of the Houses of the Oireachtas between 1 January, 1986, and 31 December, 1996,

And noting that the said Tribunal established that money was held on deposit in certain Irish banks by offshore banks in memorandum accounts the Ansbacher accounts for the benefit of Irish residents including Mr Charles Haughey, (the history of which deposits is set out in Chapter 6 of the Report of the said Tribunal),

And noting further that the Dunnes Payments Tribunal was unable by reason of its terms of reference to investigate the source of the Ansbacher accounts, other than in respect of sums paid by certain persons referred to in the said terms of reference.

Resolves that it is expedient that a Tribunal be established under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, as adapted by or under subsequent enactments and the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) (Amendment) Act, 1979, to inquire urgently into and report to the Clerk of the Dáil and make such findings and recommendations as it sees fit, in relation to the following definite matters of urgent public importance:

(a) Whether any substantial payments were made, directly or indirectly, to Mr Charles Haughey (whether or not used to discharge monies or debts due by Mr Charles Haughey or due by any company with which he was associated or due by any connected person to Mr Charles Haughey within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995 or discharged at his direction) during any period when he held public office commencing on 1st January, 1979, in circumstances giving rise to a reasonable inference that the motive for making the payment was connected with any public office held by him or had the potential to influence the discharge of such office.

(b) The source of any money held in the Ansbacher accounts for the benefit or in the name of Mr Charles Haughey or any other person who holds or has held Ministerial office, or in any other bank accounts discovered by the Tribunal to be for the benefit or in the name of Mr Haughey or for the benefit or in the name of a connected person within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, or for the benefit or in the name of any company owned or controlled by Mr Haughey.

(c) Whether any payment was made from money held in any of the accounts referred to at (b) to any person who holds or has held public office during the period of his/her tenure.

(d) Whether Mr Charles Haughey did any act or made any decision in the course of his Ministerial offices, to confer any benefit on any person making a payment referred to in paragraph (a) or any person who was the source of money referred to in paragraph (b), or any other person in return for such payments being made or procured or directed any other person to do such an act or make such a decision.

(e) Whether any substantial payments were made directly or indirectly to Mr Michael Lowry (whether or not used to discharge monies or debts due by Mr Michael Lowry or due by any company with which he was associated or due by any connected person to Mr Michael Lowry within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995 or discharged at his direction), during any period when he held public office in circumstances giving rise to a reasonable inference that the motive for making the payment was connected with any public office held by him or had the potential to influence the discharge of such office.

(f) The source of any money held in the Bank of Ireland, Thurles branch, Thurles, Co. Tipperary, the Allied Irish Bank in the Channel Islands, the Allied Irish Banks, Dame Street, Dublin, the Bank of Ireland (I.O.M.) Limited in the Isle of Man, the Irish Permanent Building Society, Patrick Street branch, Cork or Rea Brothers (Isle of Man) Limited, in accounts for the benefit or in the name of Mr Lowry or any other person who holds or has held Ministerial office or in any other bank accounts discovered by the Tribunal to be for the benefit or in the name of Mr Lowry or for the benefit or in the name of a connected person within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, or for the benefit or in the name of any company owned or controlled by Mr Lowry.

(g) Whether Mr Lowry did any act or made any decision in the course of any Ministerial office held by him to confer any benefit on any person making a payment referred to in paragraph (e) or any person who was the source of any money referred to in paragraph (f) or on any other person in return for such payments being made or procured or directed any other person to do such act or make such decision.

(h) Whether any payment was made from money held in any of the bank accounts referred to in (f) to any person who holds or has held public office during the period of his/her tenure.

(i) Whether any holder of public office for whose benefit money was held in any of the accounts referred to at (b) or (f) did any act, in the course of his or her public office, to confer any benefit on any person who was the source of that money, or directed any person to do such an act.

(j) Whether the Revenue Commissioners availed fully, properly and in a timely manner in exercising the powers available to them in collecting or seeking to collect the taxation due by Mr Michael Lowry and Mr Charles Haughey of the funds paid to Michael Lowry and/or Garuda Limited trading as Streamline Enterprises identified in Chapter 5 of the Dunnes Payments Tribunal Report and any other relevant payments or gifts identified at paragraph (e) above and the gifts received by Mr Charles Haughey identified in Chapter 7 of the Dunnes Payments Tribunal Report and any other relevant payments or gifts identified at paragraph (a) above.

And further in particular:—

(k) To make whatever recommendations it considers necessary to ensure that the relationship of politics to private contributions and influence is always seen to be entirely above board, and that the standards by which public policy is conducted are held in the highest esteem, and

(l) In the light of its findings and conclusions, to make whatever broad recommendations it considers necessary, for the reform of company law.

'Payment' includes money and any benefit in kind and the payment to any person includes a payment to a connected person within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995.

'Person' includes any natural or legal person or any body of persons whether incorporated or not.

And that the Tribunal be requested to conduct its enquiries in the following manner, to the extent that it may do so consistent with the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Acts, 1921 and 1979.

(i) To carry out such investigations in private as it thinks fit using all the powers conferred on it under the Acts, in order to determine whether sufficient evidence exists in relation to any of the matters referred to above to warrant proceeding to a full public inquiry in relation to such matters,

(ii) To enquire fully into all matters referred to above in relation to which such evidence may be found to exist, and to report to the Clerk of the Dáil thereupon, (iii) In relation to any matters where the Tribunal finds that there is insufficient evidence to warrant proceeding to a full public inquiry, to report that fact to the Clerk of the Dáil and to report in such a manner as the Tribunal thinks appropriate, on the steps taken by the Tribunal to determine what evidence, if any, existed,

(iv) To report on an interim basis, not later than three months from the date of establishment of the Tribunal or the tenth day of any oral hearing, whichever shall first occur, to the Clerk of the Dáil on the following matters:

the numbers of parties then represented before the Tribunal;

the progress which has been made in the hearing and the work of the Tribunal;

the likely duration (so far as that may be capable of being estimated at that time) of the Tribunal proceedings;

any other matters which the Tribunal believes should be drawn to the attention of the Clerk of the Dáil at that stage (including any matter relating to the terms of reference);

And that the person or persons selected to conduct the Inquiry should be informed that it is the desire of the House that the Inquiry be completed in as economical a manner as possible, and at the earliest date consistent with a fair examination of the matters to it;

And that the Clerk of the Dáil shall on receipt of any Report from the Tribunal arrange to have it laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas immediately on its receipt."

We will now proceed to deal with the first group of amendments consisting of amendments Nos. 1, 14, 16, 17 and 20. Members may speak only once and for not longer than three minutes in each case. Twenty minutes is allocated to deal with this group of amendments. These amendments are only being discussed now and will be moved at 4.30 p.m.

We thought long and hard about the approach we wanted to be taken by the next tribunal. There was a large measure of agreement that we would use the methodology of following the so-called money trail.

By and large that is the most efficient and productive method of operation for the new tribunal. Notwithstanding that, there is a strong public view that we should signal clearly as part of the remit of any new tribunal the issues that have caused public controversy and disquiet and which have undermined public confidence in the operation and impartiality of politics.

Amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Spring is not meant to be an exhaustive list of the issues. However, it is extremely important that we put explicitly in the terms of reference the type of issues that are important. These include Carysfort and the Glending Woods issues which have generated much passionate feeling. If there are any wrongdoings in any of these matters it is appropriate that they should be investigated properly. The preamble is carefully worded and sets the tone for the new tribunal. I hope the Government will be able to accept it.

Some of the other amendments were quite specific on issues like Glending, and I strongly agree that these issues need to be investigated. We did not spell out in detail all the issues because we felt that by doing so we might exclude something that would be appropriate for investigation. We should, however, refer to them to give heart and support to members of the general public who have been disquieted by these issues for some considerable period.

If they are not able to include the detailed specifics of amendments in other Deputies' names, I hope the Government and the Minister for Finance will accept the spirit of the amendment in Deputy Spring's name, which simply sets the tone and specifically mentions issues which are a cause for disquiet.

The best approach in dealing with the issues which remain after the McCracken report is to follow the money trail. If that trail leads back to one of those specific decisions which were the cause of so much concern in this House in the 1980s and early 1990s — and, indeed, the cause of such public concern — then so be it. That should also be investigated.

We cannot investigate everything. We should only investigate situations where there is a least prima facie evidence of wrongdoing. If prima facie evidence of wrongdoing arises in following the money trail, any of these matters are legitimate whether it is export credit insurance, passports for sale, the IDA package for the beef industry or the issue Deputy Howlin referred to in Wicklow. However, we do not want to specifically list controversies, some of which have been examined before by judicial tribunals or otherwise, and others which have not been examined. In the light of McCracken's findings they seem more sinister now, yet no new evidence has arisen.

The amendment in the name of Deputy Spring is a good one because it gets over the problem of going on a trawl through one's favourite controversies and obliging the tribunal to examine them seriatim. At the same time the amendment lists the public's concerns and catalogues all these decisions in the preamble or recital to the terms of reference. Deputy Spring's amendment does not alter the task being given to the tribunal if we include it in the recital but it meets the public concern about these issues.

We do not want to leave ourselves open to the charge that we are running away from any of these issues. The amendment keeps the focus on the terms of reference and includes the matters of concern in the recital. Fine Gael will support it when it is pressed to a vote afterwards, if it is not accepted by the Government.

(Dublin West): Will the Minister for Finance indicate which of this batch of amendments the Government will accept, if any?

I will have to hear the contributions of Deputies before I am in a position to do so.

(Dublin West): Amendment No. 14 calls for the terms of reference to include a look at the tax amnesties of 1987 and 1993, and if this huge concession to a very wealthy section was influenced by payments to political parties. We have heard much talk of money trails relating particularly to Ansbacher, but there were a number of very significant money trails in Irish politics and business over the past ten years, probably none bigger than the scandal of allowing super wealthy individuals and powerful companies to escape with perhaps up to £1 billion of taxation. That should be included because there is still enormous anger among ordinary PAYE tax-payers, the majority of our people, about that. I hope the Government parties will see that their terms of reference will not get over the cynicism among the people.

Amendment No. 16 relates to the scandal of Glending Wood and I hope the Government will concede this should be included. I have heard Government Deputies express disquiet about the sale, privately and without public tender, of 147 acres of State land for £1.25 million to one of Roadstone's companies for quarrying. Incredibly, the deposits of sand and gravel were valued in that sale at £439,000. On a conservative estimate 24 million tonnes, valued at £3 per tonne thus giving a figure of £72 million, could be taken from that. If we allow an extraction cost of £1 per tonne it leaves a potential profit of £48 million, yet it was sold for £439,000 or 1p or 2p per tonne. This is a scandal and to make it possible an archaeological site was delisted and has since been reinstated. Everything about it has the fingerprints of some of the main personalities that featured in the McCracken tribunal's report. It is critical that this should be examined.

As regards amendment No. 17, leading members of the conservative parties are at pains to put a huge chasm between payments to individual politicians and major payments to political parties. The difference is only one of degree, however. No ordinary people believe that massive amounts of money are given to major political parties for nothing. There should be a full investigation of all substantial donations to the major parties who have participated in Government since 1987, and an examination to see if Government policy was in any way influenced by those. These concerns of ordinary people should be taken on board and included.

We know Mr. Haughey had one benefactor for a period of about two and a half years. We believe that, having regard to all the circumstances adduced in the debate, he must have had a number of other benefactors. Whereas establishing the identities of those is a matter of some interest, what is of more interest is whether these other benefactors benefited from the relationship with Mr. Haughey. Amendment No. 1 seeks to flag some pretty controversial transactions about which the public mind harbours discontent and concern. It does not say these matters shall be inquired into by the tribunal. To use Deputy Noonan's Euroword, it is merely framed in the form of a recital that acknowledges public concern about a number of controversial transactions and that this House is reflecting that. Following the preliminary stage when, I hope, additional benefactors will be flushed out, it may no longer be necessary to inquire into some of these matters. It is important to signal the concern that exists. For that reason, I am pleased to support amendment No. 1.

This amendment is interesting because it begins with the words "Bearing also in mind". When I asked the Whips if I could speak today, I was told my request would be borne in mind. However, I was not allowed to do so. It is possible to bear things in mind but that does not mean scandals will be uncovered. I refer particularly to Glending Woods. I understand a Labour Party councillor, Mr. Cullen, who is directly involved in this matter has asked his party to support the Green Party amendment, which I hope it will. This is a scandal which must be fully investigated by the tribunal.

We want to know why sand and gravel deposits, which we estimate were worth a minimum of £48 million, were sold for £1.25 million. We want to know why a 3,000 year old bronze age site was delisted by the Government under the then Taoiseach, Mr. Charles Haughey. The Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht said it was not delisted but I have evidence to show it was. If a tribunal were established, those involved could show what happened. We want to know why Wicklow county manager continued negotiations with Cement Roadstone Holdings at a time when Wicklow County Council's planners were pursuing it in the High Court for unauthorised quarrying in Glending Woods. We also want to know if there is any connection between the sale of lands at Glending Woods to Cement Roadstone Holdings at a time when Mr. Des Traynor, who was Mr. Haughey's financial adviser, was its chairman and was involved in the negotiations and the fact that Mr. Haughey was Taoiseach.

We know Cement Roadstone Holdings has given money to political parties because my Green Party colleague, Mr. David Healy, asked this question at its annual general meeting after buying two shares and becoming a shareholder. We must find out the connection between donations to political parties and actions of political parties. We can talk about individuals but we must examine the way political parties act in these matters.

I ask the Labour Party to support our amendment.

I have already indicated we will support it.

I was not here when Deputy Howlin said that. I am disappointed that the Green Party was not allowed to speak today.

On behalf of Sinn Féin, I welcome the work of the tribunal, its comprehensive report and recommendations. It is an indictment not only of the individual politicians named in the report but of their parties. It says something of the extent of justified public cynicism about politics and politicians that it is to such tribunals that the people now look more and more for the investigation of issues and the resolution of problems, a role they have long ceased to expect from so many of their elected representatives.

The McCracken report has shone a light on the dealings not just of two wealthy former members of Government and their even wealthier business friend, Mr. Ben Dunne, but of a political class that has created a culture of privilege, a golden circle. They have treated the State more like a potato republic than a real democracy. Claims that big business donations do not give the donors privileged access to the corridors of power have no credibility. Does anyone seriously believe that the bankrolling of the two main political parties and of senior figures within them by one of the biggest companies in the State has had no bearing on policy either directly or indirectly? The Government should now take speedy action on the recommendations of the tribunal.

The report notes that as many of the payments to Deputy Michael Lowry and Mr. Charles Haughey were made offshore and in a manner veiled in secrecy in an attempt to ensure they would remain undiscovered, it may be that the measures in the recent legislation do not go far enough in ensuring that unacceptable financial transactions will not be repeated. Stronger legislation is needed not only for such dealings by those in public office but also for the export of private and corporate wealth generated in this State. There needs to be a much deeper probing into the Ansbacher accounts, for example, in the investigation of which the McCracken tribunal was hampered. The new tribunal should be empowered to inquire into this matter. I support amendment No. 17 in that regard.

The tribunal does not consider it practical to prohibit all political contributions and rely solely on public funding of political parties. There is much public unease about the provisions of the Electoral (Amendment) Act, 1995, for the public funding of parties. This is understandable as people clearly see that the bigger parties will continue to benefit from the support of wealthy benefactors while obtaining the biggest proportion of the funds set aside for the parties. However, this is also a democratic issue. One of the democratic demands raised during the struggle for universal suffrage and democratic equality throughout the 19th century was the payment of Members of Parliament. Non-payment meant that only the wealthy could afford to run for public office or to hold that office if they were elected. A way must be found to eliminate the continuing electoral advantage bestowed by wealth and privilege. The best way to do this is to limit spending by parties and candidates even further than is set down in the Electoral (Amendment) Act, 1995.

For too long the close relationship between the wealthiest in our society and the most powerful politicians has bought first class citizenship for a privileged few. It has reduced the rest of us to lesser citizenship and today it still excludes tens of thousands of people from the benefits of the much vaunted Celtic tiger economy. The people are demanding an end to this inequality and it is the business of legislators to do so.

I am taking this debate on behalf of the Taoiseach. These amendments would not improve the tribunal's terms of reference. As Deputy Noonan said, there were considerable negotiations on how to proceed following the McCracken tribunal. The purpose of the negotiations between the parties and the Government Chief Whip and the Taoiseach was to draw up the terms of reference for the new tribunal as speedily as possible so that all matters requiring public attention could be examined. Following these negotiations, it was decided to follow the money trail and if that led to unusual decisions, the tribunal would then be in a position to inquire into them. All the Opposition parties wanted to follow the money trail first. The terms of reference for this tribunal were framed with that in mind.

If we accept amendment No. 1, we are saying to the tribunal it can follow the money trail but it must also follow its decisions. I heard many Members of this House on radio and television saying it would be better to move in the other direction. This amendment would not add to the tribunal's terms of reference. I thought everyone agreed that was not the way to proceed. The Government Chief Whip and the Taoiseach proceeded with the Opposition on that basis. We now want to include more items, but this amendment would not add to the terms of reference which are specifically designed that the money trail is to be followed. The tribunal will have adequate powers to investigate any of those decisions and anything arising there from.

I am not in a position to accept amendment No. 14. Deputy Joe Higgins specifically wants to get behind the terms of the 1993 tax amnesty. The terms of the tax amnesty were set forth in such a way that acceptance of amendments Nos. 14 and 15 would mean the undoing of the requirements of that amnesty Act and it is not possible to so do.

If the money trail and the approach which the tribunal will be adopting leads to some further investigations relating to the decision on Glending Wood which is covered by Deputy Joe Higgins's amendment No. 16, then the tribunal has adequate powers within its terms of reference to follow that and related decisions. That has been the modus operandi in setting down these terms of reference and that is the way the tribunal will proceed.

I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the 20 minutes allocated to this group is up.

I am not in a position to accept the amendments put forward in Group A.

That concludes discussion on Group A. We now proceed, in accordance with the order of the House, to discuss Group B, amendments Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 15 and 21.

This group of amendments signals clearly the unhappiness on this side of the House which, I think, is shared on the other side of the House at the restriction on the terms of reference in so far as the Ansbacher accounts are concerned.

Amendment No. 21 is in the name of Deputy Seán Barrett and in my name and I would like to speak to that in particular. As the terms of reference are cast they focus exclusively in respect of the Ansbacher accounts in a very limited way. The tribunal may inquire into the following: if Mr. Haughey was the beneficiary of any other moneys in any of the other Ansbacher accounts; if he was the beneficiary, who donated the money; if any other office holder or former office holder was a beneficiary; or if there was a channel through a Haughey-controlled account which benefited office holders or previous office holders. That is the public's primary concern. They want a clean political system. They want to ensure that there is no corruption in politics and they want a further and wider scrutiny of the Ansbacher accounts to see whether there were corrupt practices involving Mr. Haughey, other officer holders or former office holders. In so far as it goes, that is fine with us. It focuses on the issue of primary public concern.

However, there is an issue of public concern which is almost as strongly felt. If these accounts had nothing to do with politicians, if these Ansbacher accounts were merely there for the purposes of tax evasion or exchange control evasion to benefit private citizens in this country, the public feel they should be inquired into also. There is no link with political corruption and no prima facie case of anything connected with politics in this secondary concern, but the public will not forgive us if we allow these terms of reference to be agreed without facing the tax evasion issue head on.

I know there are legal difficulties in drawing up terms of reference to examine bank accounts held in the names of private citizens. If one says that we are to examine private citizens' Ansbacher and Guinness Mahon accounts, the law of equity in my view would extend as far as to make it necessary to examine every bank account held by Irish citizens in any kind of offshore arrangement. That might have unforeseen effects on the economy. We must achieve terms of reference which target and focus on the public concern without having some kind of prurient trawl through the private affairs of decent citizens who are doing nothing wrong.

I believe the way I have cast this amendment is the way to do it. I am asking that the procedures used would be examined to see whether tax evasion occured or whether there were attempts to avoid exchange control regulations. If it so transpires in the preliminary stages, then the tribunal would make recommendations not only on how these practices should be avoided in the future in respect of Ansbacher but in respect of accounts held throughout the banking system. I strongly recommend that approach.

I am strongly in agreement with the argument and the clear case put forward by Deputy Noonan. The inadequacy of the focus on the Ansbacher accounts drew the most criticism in public debate. While the focus has been on ethics and standards in politics, it is a matter of concern for every citizen, and particularly every tax-payer, that if wrongdoing is discovered by somebody who happens not to have been a former Minister or Mr. Haughey, then that is not within the scope or ambit of exposure by this tribunal, and that is wrong. It is often suggested that politicians have certain privileges but this is a peculiar privilege, the privilege to be uniquely investigated. If others are found to be involved in tax evasion, they are not under the scope of this tribunal. If such wrongdoing is discovered, it should be followed through at least to the extent of being notified to the Revenue to ensure that the same tax regime that applies to the compliant citizens of this State applies to all and nobody is above the law in this regard. It is extremely important in the context of instilling public confidence in the political system and the workings of this new tribunal.

I listened with care to the words of the Tánaiste in bringing the previous debate to a conclusion on behalf of the Government. She spoke passionately in terms of this second tribunal being a final opportunity to restore public confidence in the operations of the political system and all its subsidiaries, the system of governance of this country. I strongly urge the Minister for Finance to look at one of the series of amendments. Each of the parties and the Independents in Opposition sought to formula a wording which would be appropriate to allow the type of exposure about which Deputy Noonan and I have spoken. If the words of the Tánaiste are to be believed — and I, for one, believe them — surely there is a form of words among those amendments which the Government will accept. If the Government has an amendment or if it wishes to add, subtract or amplify any of the amendments in the names of Opposition Deputies, I am sure there will be no difficulty in facilitating that approach on this side of the House. It is extremely important that this issue is not fudged.

Mr. Justice McCracken's relevant comment is as follows:

It is not the function of this Tribunal to examine these deposits in any detail, and it may well be that a number of the Irish depositors may have been people engaged in international business which was greatly facilitated by having a sterling account abroad which did not require exchange control permission to operate.

He concludes:

No doubt there were others who deposited the monies in this way from other motives.

We can deduce that there is legitimate money for international business in some of those memorandum accounts but we can similarly infer from what Mr. Justice McCracken has said — he would be unlikely to make the latter remark if the accounts did not contain money which was deposited for other motives — that the motive was tax evasion. Deputy Spring's amendment refers to the source of any money held. My party's amendment, amendment No. 6, refers not only to the source but to the beneficial ownership of any moneys. The essence of what we are providing in the motion is that if people in public life have been availing of this kind of tax evasion mechanism it is wrong, but if private wealthy citizens want to go about evading their taxes, we ought not to inquire into it.

I understand amendment No. 6 has struck terror into the heart of the system and it is believed interest rates, etc., will rise in the morning. Perhaps that is correct. However, the argument as the man in the street will see it, is that we will not investigate this matter because further tax cheats might be discovered. There might be more than one accountant in this city working for a small bank who has assembled a portfolio of £38 million and salted it away in off-shore accounts for the purposes of evading tax. There may be other accountants who have used instruments available in this jurisdiction to evade tax. It is hard to justify this to ordinary people.

If the Fine Gael amendment is a reasonable via media, I will support it. However, I find it difficult to understand how we can state that it is acceptable for wealthy personages resident in this jurisdiction to evade their taxes. I understand that accounts of this kind were perfectly legal until 1978 when Ireland left the sterling area. Sterling was not a foreign currency at that time and it is only since then that the exchange controls applied until about 1991.

I would like the Minister for Finance, his Department and the Central Bank to inform me how that was allowed to happen.

Deputies Howlin and Noonan made very cogent arguments in favour of pursuing these accounts. I was particularly struck by Deputy Howlin's point that there should not be special standards which suggest that politicians are the only people who may be inspected. We should also investigate instances where there is any reason to fear that institutions, banks or professionals have been involved in wrongdoing.

On the earlier group of amendments, it strikes me there are other ways to pursue some of the issues raised, particularly that of Glending Wood. I have already decided to request that the Committee of Public Accounts should undertake a full examination of the situation surrounding Glending Wood. Some of the details connected with this matter may be forgotten if the relevant amendments are defeated and I suggest the investigations should not be put to one side as a result. I hope Members will use the other available institutional arrangements, particularly the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies and specifically the Committee of Public Accounts, to examine other scandals. Glending Wood is one of the scandals I am anxious to see properly investigated.

The Green Party also believes that the matter of the Ansbacher accounts does not only require the investigation of the affairs of politicians. Those accounts were not set up simply for the benefit of politicians. As other Members indicated, there are other accounts which require investigation. Some of these are quite legitimate and the people in whose names they are held have nothing to fear. However, if the Dáil is a true representative body it should concern itself with matters about which PAYE workers, the unemployed and unpaid volunteers are concerned. Overseas accounts of this type raise questions in the minds of ordinary people. There may be reasons relating to business matters which necessitate the establishment of such accounts but for the majority of people this investigation involves politics. However, this is not solely a political investigation and the amendment stresses that point.

The question arises from this group of amendments as to why would people want to evade the censure of the Revenue Commissioners by establishing certain off-shore accounts. The amendments also give rise to questions regarding whether the Revenue Commissioners have sufficient powers or the will to pursue some of the more suspicious accounts which could be unveiled with a proper investigation of the Ansbacher accounts.

There is a perception that there is a see no evil hear no evil school of thought and that once one makes a tax return regardless of the fact that it could be completely inconsistent with the wealth displayed by one, the Revenue Commissioners have done their job. People must be reassured that this is not simply a case of making a tax return; everything must be declared. This is included in one of the amendments tabled by the Opposition, including the Green Party, and worries can be dealt with in due course. The concerns behind the amendments are not being addressed by the tribunal and if we are to ensure politics will be restored to a position of respect, this or a similar amendment will need to be taken on board as part of the investigation by the new tribunal.

(Dublin West): I am sorry Deputy Roche had to withdraw so quickly. With regard to Glending Wood, he knows well that the Committee of Public Accounts does not have the powers of a tribunal to compel people to appear before it and reveal bank accounts, etc. That is a feeble way of opposing the amendment. Paragraph (c) of the proposed terms of reference seeks to examine—

Whether any payment was made from money held in any of the accounts referred to at (b) to any person who holds or has held public office during the period of his/her tenure.

Will the Minister for Finance explain this? Why should an investigation into such a person be confined to the period when he or she held office? Substantial payments could have been made before or after that time which would be relevant. I am sure that at least this seemingly minor but important point will be accepted by the Government.

The majority of decent people looked askance when it was revealed that Irish residents had £38 million in the offshore Ansbacher accounts. The impact of this was that a veil was lifted on the dealings of some elements of business and finance. We saw the devious methods of some captains of industry and finance — the ugly face of Irish capitalism — which justified the cynicism of decent PAYE taxpayers who are crucified and forced to pay every penny. The Government does not want to investigate the matter and Deputy Rabbitte referred to this earlier.

Mr. Justice McCracken poses a question that must be answered:

No doubt there were others who deposited monies in this way from other motives.

What were these motives? It is clear what he is getting at. Every week in Dublin decent PAYE taxpayers are dragged into court by local authorities for arrears amounting to £255 for the hated water tax, now abolished. They are asked what their income is, etc. because they correctly objected to an unjust tax via a simple disobedience. Some £38 million is held in the offshore accounts which are undoubtedly for tax evasion purposes. However, the Government does not propose to examine them despite having this ideal opportunity.

Was the tax amnesty availed of to bring laundered funds back into the economy? If these questions are not answered, it makes a mockery of a new investigation.

It will please the Labour Party that I am prepared to accept amendment No. 7 put forward by Deputy Joe Higgins for the reasons he has outlined. I have no objection to accepting that amendment.

We are delighted.

I knew the Deputy would be pleased.

With respect, it scarcely goes to the heart of the matter.

In regard to exchange control matters, on the day the tribunal report was received my Department requested the Central Bank, to which organisation the operation of exchange control arrangements was given in 1965, to investigate the issues raised by McCracken in so far as exchange control regulations had been breached. Members will recall that in the case of Deputy Lowry it appeared to Mr. Justice McCracken that exchange control regulations had been breached. I have been informed by the Central Bank that this involves going through many transactions but it hopes to be in a position before the end of the month to send me a report on same. On receipt of those findings I will then be in a position, if it warrants it, to send those files and papers to the Director of Public Prosecutions who will take it from there.

The other point concerns the audit procedures undertaken by the Revenue Commissioners. I believe the former wording relating to the Ansbacher accounts in these terms of reference and the words relating to the investigations by the Revenue Commissioners will give the commissioners ample powers to pursue tax evasion if, as a result of this tribunal, further tax evasion queries come to light.

The focus of this new tribunal is on politicians or on former politicians. The original purpose of this tribunal, arising from the McCracken tribunal, was to focus on the activities of politicians and favours thereto. It was not intended at the outset that other matters be investigated.

I have looked at the amendments tabled by Deputy Michael Noonan and Deputy Sean Barrett. We would like to accommodate amendment No. 21. We have not been able to come up with a more suitable amendment at this stage but if I have a suitable form of wording before the close of the debate at 4.30 p.m. I will put it to the House. As Deputy Noonan has said, other considerations must be taken into account in the whole area of the Ansbacher deposits. I am not trying to lessen the anxiety on the part of the ordinary compliant taxpayer when he sees enormous sums of money such as this. In defence of the Revenue Commissioners — I have said this before becoming Minister for Finance — the change in its whole operation in the past ten to 15 years is one of the significant factors in the Exchequer returns in recent years. Anybody who has been involved and has looked at the changes will be aware this is happening. I might be in a position to accept a modified form of amendment No. 21 but apart from amendment No. 7 I cannot accept the others.

That concludes discussion of group B. We now move on to group C amendments, Nos. 2, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 18.

Amendments Nos. 2, 8, 9 and 10 are in the names of myself and Deputy Barrett. The term of reference, as drafted, would cut off the investigation into Mr. Haughey as soon as he ceased to be a Member of this House. If we look at the Dunnes tribunal and match the dates of the payments from Dunnes to Mr. Haughey, at least one was after that time.

If we are investigating political corruption the word "kickback" would be in everybody's mind in terms of political corruption in other jurisdictions. It is not necessarily at the time the favour is done that the money is paid. Unless it is extended up to 31 December 1996 this term of reference confines the scrutiny of Mr. Haughey from 1 January 1979 up to the day he ceased to be a Member. It should be extended. It is an omission which I do not think was intended but it should be corrected.

In amendment No. 8 which is similar, paragraph (d) refers again to Mr. Haughey's ministerial offices. The Attorney General may give us assurances that the ministerial offices include the office of the Taoiseach but I would be much happier if the words "or during periods when he was Taoiseach" were included. There is not much point in investigating Mr. Haughey when he was a Minister if he is not investigated when he was Taoiseach. In any event, he was not a Minister between the effective dates; he was Taoiseach all the time. We need either an assurance that the legal advice is that the phrase "ministerial office" includes the office of Taoiseach or, alternatively, the acceptance of my amendment.

Amendment No. 9 refers to Deputy Michael Lowry and seeks to substitute "ministerial office" for "any public office". There has been a very fair attempt to ensure that the terms of reference in respect of Deputy Lowry mirror those relating to Mr. Haughey. I do not think the House intends that Deputy Lowry should be investigated in his capacity as a member of the Mid-Western Health Board or as a member of Tipperary County Council. Ministerial office is the issue there.

Amendment No. 10 speaks for itself. There has been conversation, if not prima facie evidence, over the years to the effect that the manner in which the leader's allowance is paid to leaders of the Opposition leaves a lot to be desired. It is paid by personal cheque by the Department of Finance in the name of the leader. Public servants at senior level and people in the main Government parties have been fairly free over the years to describe Mr. Haughey's lack of discrimination between a political expense and a personal expense, and in regard to entertainment which benefited the Fianna Fáil Party, even though there was a social element attached to it. No fine distinctions were made.

The totality of the leader's allowances in the 1980s amounted to in excess of £1 million. If we are following the money trail, that money trail should be examined as well. The Taoiseach's assurances that everything was in order were less than all-embracing.

Amendment No. 18 in the name of Deputy Spring mirrors the sentiments and concerns of amendment No. 10 just addressed by Deputy Noonan. Again it relates to the leader's allowance, how the very substantial sum of money, in excess of £1 million, paid out of State coffers to Mr. Haughey as Leader of Fianna Fáil specifically for parliamentary support was used and disbursed by him when he was party leader in the years 1983 to 1992. There is a great deal of disquiet on both sides of the House, including among Fianna Fáil members, about how that money was disbursed, how it was handled and spent. It was not intended to meet the personal expenses of an individual. It was intended to be a parliamentary allowance for the proper support of parliamentary expenses of a political party. It is an issue that should be encompassed in the terms of reference of the tribunal.

I also support the amendments tabled by Fine Gael which tidy up the terms of reference in relation to, for example, a period to be covered to ensure that there is a comprehensive overview and that the tribunal will not find itself hamstrung on a technicality whereby, because of a certain timeframe in the terms of reference, some untoward act would not be investigated fully.

Let me ask the Minister to focus, for a moment, on amendment No. 13 which relates to paragraph (j) and the Revenue Commissioners, in other words, the power that is being conferred on the tribunal to establish whether the Revenue Commissioners availed in full and in a timely way of their powers to investigate Mr. Haughey and Deputy Lowry. Can the Minister say to the House that the tribunal may get the file on Mr. Haughey's tax affairs other than as relates to the Dunnes Stores payments? The whole exercise will be largely futile, since we already know the answer on the Dunnes Stores payments, if we do not get the tax file for the years when this conspicuous consumption was paraded under the noses of the Revenue Commissioners. That is the question the man in the street and the small business person want answered. In amendment No. 13 I propose to include paragraphs (a) and (b). The motion includes only paragraph (a). Paragraph (b) refers to other bank accounts discovered by the tribunal. This matter must be investigated, not merely in the context of the Dunnes Stores payments but in terms of other payments and bank accounts that might be discovered by the tribunal, and the Revenue Commissioners must furnish the necessary documents.

There may be a perfectly plausible explanation for this. Mr. Haughey may be a blood stock producer, a famous explanation I got from the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners regarding another matter. For all I know, he may be breeding prize ponies and selling them to Mr. Goodman. They may have developed a fetlock problem which could be claimed against insurance.

They could be turned into pet food.

Ultimately, they could go through the food chain on the pet food side. One would like to know if that is the case. Will the Minister address that specific point?

(Dublin West): I am appalled the Government is not accepting the substantive amendments. It is obvious the terms of reference and the Government's proposals are a cynical manoeuvre to use Messrs. Haughey and Lowry as lightning conductors to divert the anger of the ordinary people, the attention of the media and turn the spotlight on to those individuals. It is an attempt to make them perform the same function as the old goat in the supposedly less enlightened days of yore when the populace placed all their sins on the unfortunate animal's head and dispatched it into the wilderness. It is obvious that is the Government's intention rather than holding an inquiry to get at the truth of standards at the interface of business and politics in the past ten years. That is the conclusion people in general will draw from the Government's action. It obviously does not want to delve deeper than the narrow terms of reference which relate to mainly two individuals. Why is that the case? Is it afraid other embarrassments might come to light or that other individuals found hiding behind “S” codes in Ansbacher accounts might be big beneficiaries of Fianna Fáil, the Progressive Democrats or even Fine Gael which also receives substantial contributions from big businesses?

I take it the Minister for Finance will adopt a similar attitude to amendment No. 11 since its proposal is similar to that contained in amendment No. 7.

The terms of reference before us are about putting politics before people, damage limitation, self-preservation and big business as usual. They will ensure the symbiotic relationship between business and politics continues to erode the fabric of democracy and public confidence in it. The tactics are clear. The terms of reference are a decoy to concentrate on Haughey and Lowry as they are yesterday's men. Fianna Fáil can afford to put a stake through Mr. Haughey's heart, he is dispensable. However, while Haughey might be gone the Haugheyites live on. They are alive and well and enjoying the privileges of Government. Our current Taoiseach is foremost among the Haugheyites; he is Mr. Haughey's chosen successor, "the most cunning and devious of them all", according to the former Taoiseach. What was intended as a compliment now takes on a chilling resonance in light of the McCracken report.

Did the Taoiseach use that cunning and deviousness when appointing another Haugheyite, Deputy Burke, as Minister for Foreign Affairs? This was an extraordinary decision, given what we know about the Minister. There is a thick file on him in Garda Headquarters in the Phoenix Park. He has been investigated 20 times by the fraud squad, he received £30,000 from a developer but the Government would have us believe all this is normal, acceptable, above reproach, and should be rewarded with a ministerial position. If this is so, political standards are relative and the Taoiseach inhabits a different universe to the rest of us. To most people, receiving a payment of £30,000 in cash is quite extraordinary. My party is clear and unequivocal in its response — the terms of reference must be broadened to include an investigation into these important matters. I will speak again when my amendment relating to Deputy Burke comes up for discussion and I will deal directly with that subject.

Amendment No. 2 would have the effect of extending the period of investigation beyond Mr. Haughey's retirement. I have no fixed view on this matter but since he did not hold any public office at that stage he would not have been in a position to influence any decisions. It seems to me that to extend the terms of reference to a period after his public activity would be unnecessary and unwarranted.

The McCracken report shows that one of the payments was made after he left public office.

The purpose of this tribunal is to find out about payments to politicians, other matters pertaining thereto and any decisions which may have been influenced and need to be investigated further, with reference to the money trail. This amendment will only prolong the period of the inquiry and——

No, it will not prolong anything. If he made a decision which was "bent" and he was paid for it later, that should be included in the investigation.

I will accept amendment No. 2 in the spirit in which it is being offered but I have put the other points on the record. I will also accept amendment No. 11 in the name of Deputy Higgins. That amendment, which relates to Deputy Lowry, is the equivalent of amendment No. 7, relating to Mr. Haughey, and would provide for similar terms of reference, so I accept it on that basis.

The leader's allowance has been paid to party leaders since 1938 to meet the expenses of maintaining party operations. It was always paid to a leader or a bank account nominated by the leader — that applied to all parties — until the passing last December of the Oireachtas (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1996. Members will remember the furore surrounding that Act and the stirring speech made from these benches by my predecessor, Deputy Quinn, concerning the media's attitudes to politicians. Prior to that Act the payment was always made to the leader, with no provision as to the purposes of the payment. The 1996 Act provides that the money must go towards parliamentary activities, including research. The amount paid to political parties has always been known and it would have been the job of the Members of those parties to decide or ascertain how it would be spent. Since this was raised some months ago, the Taoiseach has investigated the matter and consulted the party administrator during Mr. Haughey's reign as Fianna Fáil leader. I use the word "reign" advisedly.

It was a hard reign.

We know.

The lady who administered the Fianna Fáil accounts has assured the Taoiseach nothing untoward went on at that stage, and he is satisfied with that explanation, as am I. What are Deputies suggesting by wanting to extend it any further? Perhaps they want a general investigation of all activities of all parties during that period. I am not prepared to accept amendments relating to those matters.

What is the answer to amendment No. 13?

As far as I can remember, Deputy Rabbitte asked about the attitude of this tribunal to the tax files of Mr. Haughey. During the Goodman tribunal, in which Deputy Rabbitte is well versed, no difficulties occurred at that time with the Revenue Commissioners. The tax matters relating to, and investigations by the Revenue Commissioners into, the Goodman activities were given to the tribunal. I know it is the wish of the House that that will also occur at this tribunal. I have no reason to believe——

Will that tribunal have access to Mr. Haughey's tax files?

We believe the same situation will apply as pertained to the Goodman tribunal; that is, the tribunal will be in a position to deal with the Revenue Commissioners and the Revenue Commissioners will be in a position to comply with what Deputy Rabbitte has asked.

Even if the terms of reference say it only relates to the Dunnes payments area?

The Minister must conclude; we cannot have a debate on this matter as we are on a very tight time schedule.

We believe so.

On amendments Nos. 8 and 9, does "ministerial office" include his period as Taoiseach?

Yes, I specified that when Deputy Noonan raised it. The Attorney General has advised that "ministerial office" includes the period during which he was Taoiseach. We are quite satisfied about that.

That concludes the debate on the group of amendments (c). We will now move to group (d), amendments Nos. 12, 19 and 27.

I particularly wish to draw the attention of the Minister to amendment No. 27. The purpose of this amendment is to have included the matters which were the subject of the personal statement made to the House yesterday by the Minister for Foreign Affairs after subparagraph (i) — in other words, at the preliminary stage of the tribunal when the sifting process is carried out — to establish whether there is evidence which would warrant these matters being referred to the tribunal proper.

I submit it is very difficult to understand any argument the Minister can advance which resists that process which, under subparagraph (i), will be carried out in private. My party has tabled an amendment to excise the words "in private" because that is an undesirable situation. There was no such stricture on McCracken, yet he exercised his discretion and everybody says he did a very good job. Why can we not leave it to the discretion of the tribunal on this occasion?

If the Government is not minded to do that, then I merely ask that at the preliminary stage, during the sifting process which is conducted in private, the matters which were the subject of the personal statement by the Minister, Deputy Ray Burke, should be included. As somebody remarked on radio today, if this matter had come into the public arena during the Lowry/Haughey affair it would have indisputably been referred to the McCracken tribunal.

To quote Deputy Gormley who talked about yesterday's men, how can this House justify to the public that we are prepared to investigate the misdemeanours of yesterday's men, but a serving Minister, who may have done nothing wrong — this is entirely non judgmental — but who received an inordinately large personal donation from a stranger can give us no information on the motivation behind that? The amendment is non-judgmental and I do not seek its inclusion in the tribunal's terms of reference. The tribunal should deal with the matter in so far as it relates to the preliminary stage. It could proceed if evidence is established but if it is not, that would be the end of the matter.

The Government appears to have drawn a line in the sand. The Minister's triumphant remarks after yesterday's debate, when he misunderstood the civility demonstrated towards him because of the manifest stress he was under in the House, were not in his interest. Accepting the amendment is the least the House should do.

I support amendment No. 27. Of all the issues debated this week, there has been a strong public focus on the need to ensure that the House does not deal just with wrongs in the past and that confidence is restored now in everybody who holds public office. In common with other contributors, I make no allegations against the Minister for Foreign Affairs. A prima facie case has not been established but all Members are amazed that somebody who was barely known to the Minister arrived with two envelopes stuffed to the gills with £30,000 in cash. This needs further investigation at least in the preliminary stage.

There are two ways to deal with this matter, both of which are covered in the amendments. The House could include them in the terms of reference of the new tribunal or alternatively we could take the path outlined by Deputy Rabbitte which is encompassed in amendment No. 27. This would ensure at least a proper sifting of the issue. If matters need to be investigated, they should be investigated. If no such matters arise, the issue will rest there. It is essential for all Members that the amendment is accepted by the House and incorporated in the terms of reference. I understand the parties in Government share the strong view on this side that this should happen. There should be no question marks left over this crucial issue.

The Fine Gael Party's position is similar and we will support this good amendment. Following yesterday's debate which involved a statement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Ray Burke, and questions, Fine Gael's view is that while nothing further emerged to damage the Minister's reputation, it did not clear up the event. There is not a prima facie case for making the Minister's payment an issue within the terms of the tribunal for a full blown inquiry because it has not reached that point.

The Fine Gael Party wondered whether it could be included if other facts emerged in the interim report from the tribunal to the House which will also cover the adequacy of the terms of reference. My party considered whether that would be the appropriate time. It also considered if a committee of the House should look at this matter further. However, Deputy Rabbitte and his Democratic Left colleagues have come up with the solution. It should be included in the preliminary sifting in which the tribunal will engage in private. If nothing emerges, there will be no damage to the Minister's reputation because everything will be conducted in private. However, if new facts emerge which call for further inquiry, it will proceed to the body of the tribunal in the same way as other issues will proceed. The Opposition owes a debt of gratitude to Deputy Rabbitte and his colleagues because we all wondered how to deal with this issue which needs to be addressed. The amendment is the best solution I have seen so far and my party supports it.

I was disappointed at yesterday's events. It appeared the Minister, Deputy Burke, did much filibustering and that his answers were inadequate. When I asked him why payment was made in cash, he replied that I would have to ask the developers that question. If we had a tribunal that question could be asked and the developers could be made to open their books. Maybe that is why there is a reluctance among certain Opposition parties to Deputy Burke being investigated by a new tribunal. If the books were opened, they might reveal that others were in receipt of payments. That is what Deputy Burke implied yesterday and why he feels so aggrieved. He believes he is being singled out and implied that everyone is at it. We are not. The Taoiseach said yesterday that no party is blameless. The Green Party has never accepted a donation from a developer. I call for unity among the Opposition parties today in supporting our amendment.

People are missing the point. We are talking about prima facie evidence. The McCracken tribunal was the best ever yet it did not discover political impropriety. Once it started to dig, it found a lot more. We know that large tracts of land were rezoned against the wishes of professional planners. We know that huge sums of money were made by developers because of these rezonings. We know that these developers have given money to political parties. We know that the explanation given by Deputy Burke is not satisfactory. We also know that public confidence in the planning process is at an all-time low. If this Government is serious about restoring public confidence in politics and the planning process, it must investigate these matters.

Of course, the Government does not want to include these matters in the terms of reference because it would open the biggest can of worms ever seen in this State. The "business as usual" scenario would become a thing of the past. If the tribunal extends to Deputy Burke, the outlook for him is very bleak. He would go down, and the question would be: who would go down with him? Deputy Burke has the unequivocal support of the Progressive Democrats which must be a great comfort to him. It is the same reassurance that a Premier League football manager feels when the board of directors give him a vote of confidence although his team is playing badly. The Progressive Democrat support for Deputy Burke is the first chapter in their political obituary. A once proud party is now a sad, pathetic rump. They are an insipid and uninspiring bunch of has-beens. Faced with the challenge of being radical or redundant, the Tánaiste took the redundancy package and fled. The policy-driven party have become the Mercedes-driven party. The pursuit of perks, power and privilege has replaced the politic of principle.

I ask support for our amendment from all Opposition parties.

These amendments relate to Deputy Ray Burke. Let us be honest about this. I hear Deputies I like making remarks in private about Deputy Burke to the effect that of course he may have done nothing wrong and they are not making any allegations, yet they want to keep this game going forever.

Deputy Burke did what no other Deputy has done in my time in this House. He came into the House, made a personal statement, subjected himself to cross-examination and gave a fair outline of his personal affairs, which I would not like to have done. That set a precedent with which all Members will have to live. Some people outside the House will only be satisfied when Deputy Burke resigns.

I am not the guardian of Deputy Burke's conscience. In my 20 years in the Dáil we have been mostly on opposite sides in political debate, but I defend the right of everybody to be treated fairly. Deputy Burke has stated quite clearly that he received this money and has stated the circumstances in which he received it. People are saying that there is no prima facie case or allegations of wrongdoing but they still want to keep this matter going. It is the greatest amount of bloody hypocrisy that we have had in the House for a long time. Journalists and the media have spent much time researching the activities of Deputy Burke and it is time they either put up or shut up as no further evidence has been adduced in this matter.

The question was raised by Deputy Gormley and Deputy Joe Higgins who seem to be the new conscience of the House while the rest of us are lesser beings. They are trying to grab the high moral ground. From previous experience of people and parties who grab the high moral ground, I warn them to be careful. Deputy Burke admitted he got £30,000 in cash but Deputy Gormley and others said it was incredible.

It is incredible.

Many incredible things have happened in the past, one of which occurred quite recently. If you had met a person on the street before the McCracken tribunal and told them that somebody walked into a public house where there was a function taking place upstairs and met a person he had not met before who gave him £15,000 to keep him going, they would not have believed you and would have said it was incredible and that nobody would do that in Ireland. As a result of the tribunal and our greater knowledge of the person concerned and those who know him, who would not have been surprised by this, it no longer seems incredible.

We are supposed to be incredulous about Deputy Burke and the £30,000 but not about these other activities. I do not know why those concerned presented the money in cash, nor does he. He said he accepted £30,000 and he has outlined the circumstances in a way in which no other Member of this House has done. In the interest of fair play — I would say this in relation to any Member, and did so not too long ago for a Member who is not a member of my party — it is time to give Deputy Burke an even chance and that applies both inside and outside the House. There is a marked type of hypocrisy. There is no one on those benches who does not believe him, except perhaps five Members but the remainder are going along with this morning's media hype and feel they must be on the side of the angels. That nauseates me. Until further evidence is adduced, Deputy Burke stands cleared of all charges. I reject all the amendments.

That concludes the discussion on group D of the amendments. We now move on to the last group, group E, amendments Nos. 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 28 and 29.

Amendments Nos. 24 and 28, in the names of Deputy Barrett and myself, are tidying up amendments. Amendment No. 24 states:

After the definition of "Person", to insert the following new definition:

"‘Public Office' means for the purpose of this Inquiry a member of either House of the Oireachtas.".

It is the intention of the terms of reference to include Members of the Oireachtas serving at present or having previously served, and not other persons who hold public office.

Amendment No. 28 relates to misdrafting by the draftsperson. Clearly, when a tribunal reports and does not establish matters of substance, it should at least be required to describe the steps taken to determine what evidence, if any, existed. We do not have to direct a tribunal to do so because we can take it as read but a tribunal should be required to ensure that the steps taken to determine what evidence, if any, existed can be identified. We want the interim or the final report if the money trail leads nowhere. The tribunal should have to place a report before the House which will not simply say it did this or that. It must be demonstrable that it did everything within its power to follow the trail and, if it fails, it must be clear that it tried and that the steps it took are clearly identified in the House. The drafting of this part is incorrect and is off the point. I ask the Minister to accept the amendment.

Amendments Nos. 22, 25 and 29, which relate to the conduct of the tribunal, have been tabled in the name of Deputy Spring. Amendment No. 22 expands the type of recommendations available to the tribunal. Without going into detail, it is clear what we want. Issues raised regarding the conduct of professionals and of the Revenue Commissioners should be open to scrutiny and to specific recommendation by the new tribunal.

Amendment No. 25 seeks to give discretion to the tribunal to decide whether the preliminary investigation should be conducted in private or in public. This is a matter which should be at the discretion of the tribunal.

Part B of amendment No. 29 concerns the cost of the tribunal. While the terms of reference allude to ensuring the costs of the tribunal are kept under control, an issue which will gladden the hearts of the Minister for Finance and his officials, part B of the amendment seeks that "all costs incurred by reason of the failure of individuals to co-operate fully and expeditiously with the Inquiry should, so far as is consistent with the interests of justice, be borne by those individuals". It would be improper if the taxpayer was at a loss in funding obstruction of the will of the Oireachtas by any individual or group of individuals.

I recommend the amendments to the House.

It galled the public when a group of companies found guilty of the biggest corporate tax evasion in the history of the State was awarded costs in the beef tribunal. It would be regrettable if that occurred again. A number of people have contacted me today to remind me that the second strike by workers at Dunnes Stores took place over a retrospective payment of £1 million due to employees, yet the former principal director of the company was in a position to hand out donations of £1 million on the basis that he wished to buy the friendship of a prominent politician. This amendment regarding costs ought to be accepted.

This collection of amendments, though disparate, covers a number of concerns which the public still have about the terms of reference. The focus of the new tribunal is on political careers that are over. Will the public be reassured that the current political process which must also serve the future is free of the cynicism which currently attaches to it? Unless the Green Party amendment which would allow for the investigation of other politicians currently serving and who hope to serve in the future is accepted, we will be left with a fossil type investigation which may amount to flogging a dead horse. Can the Government not find sufficient common sense to extend the terms of reference of the tribunal to allow it cover activities and misdemeanours which may involve current Members of the Oireachtas or those involved in public life?

There is the added aspect of the Revenue Commissioners, who as individuals are doubtless doing the best job they can under the circumstances but who are in the eye of a storm when it comes to answering questions. Enormous wealth seems to be obvious to everyone apart from those to whom it ought to be obvious. Why do the Revenue Commissioners find themselves having to be facilitated with a tax amnesty from time to time or why must they be dragged kicking and screaming to answer questions in relation, for example, to Mr. Haughey's wealth? Why is it that we cannot, through this tribunal, clearly give them the necessary legislation, powers and motivation to do their job? Why can we not include a revised set of standards in order that the Revenue Commissioners will have no need to be facilitated by tax amnesties? Such amnesties serve the rich elite and do nothing for the vast majority of people other than to alienate them from the democratic process which is supposed to serve them.

I am in a position to accept amendment No. 22 in the name of Deputy Dick Spring. This amendment lengthens the number of recommendations we are asking the tribunal to make but I am willing to accept parts (k) to (o) of the amendment. With regard to amendment No. 22 (m) I suggest that "securing the formal independence" be changed to "maintaining independence". I am sure Deputy Howlin will agree to that.

I will also accept amendments Nos. 25 and 29 in Deputy Spring's name. Amendment No. 25 refers to the privacy of the format of the proceedings. Amendment No. 29 in regard to the cost of the inquiry was referred to by both Deputies Howlin and Rabbitte. I do not feel that the amendment is necessary. I am sure Deputies Howlin and Rabbitte probably have good cause to remember——

For very different reasons.

——chapter 2 of the beef tribunal report which provides an excellent judicial interpretation of the Tribunals of Inquiries Act and refers to decisions made in the United Kingdom and matters relating thereto. If a person were not to co-operate fully with an inquiry costs would be borne by them in that regard. However, it is probably worth including the amendment in order to emphasise that we do not want to read, in years to come, of millions of pounds having been spent on an inquiry. As long as the work is carried out expeditiously and fairly there should be no need for such an amendment.

I am satisfied that there is no need for amendment No. 24 tabled by Deputy Noonan regarding the definition of holder of public office as meaning, "for the purpose of this Inquiry a Member of either House of the Oireachtas.".

Amendment No. 21 tabled by Deputy Noonan refers to the Ansbacher accounts. I am of the view that in order to encompass the meaning of the amendment it could be incorporated into the recommendations which the tribunal will bring forward as a result of its deliberations. In the light of accepting amendment No. 22 in the name of Deputy Spring, which includes paragraphs (k) to (o), instead of amendment No. 21, will Deputies Noonan and Barrett accept a further amendment which would include paragraph (p) stating, "for the protection of the State's tax base from fraud or evasion in the establishment and maintenance of offshore accounts and to recommend whether any changes in the tax law should be made to achieve this end". The spirit of amendment No. 21 regarding Ansbacher would be better encompassed in what we are asking the tribunal to do. Having accepted additional recommendations put forward by the Labour Party, instead of amendment No. 21, I ask Deputies Noonan and Barrett to accept the additional recommendation to which I referred. Perhaps that would satisfy the Deputies' concerns.

There could be a difficulty with asking the tribunal to make recommendations on a matter into which it is not empowered to inquire. The Minister is now amending amendment No. 22 asking the tribunal to make recommendations on issues into which he is not empowering it to inquire.

The terms of reference go into considerable detail on the Ansbacher accounts.

Only in so far as they deal with Charles Haughey or other Ministers.

In investigating those matters there will be many references to the Ansbacher accounts. In the case of Mr. Haughey, there would certainly be references to offshore accounts. The resumè of the McCracken report was that Irish residents put money, which probably should have been taxed, into offshore accounts and brought it back into the country through Ansbacher deposits in Guinness and Mahon. In investigating that matter, the tribunal will investigate the entire position of Ansbacher deposits and offshore accounts. If we give the tribunal an additional remit to make the further recommendation I suggested, the spirit of the amendment put forward by Deputies Noonan and Barrett would be incorporated.

Will the Minister read out the proposed amendment again?

I propose to include amendment No. 22 with the following addition:

(p) for the protection of the State's tax base from fraud or evasion in the establishment and maintenance of offshore accounts and to recommend whether any changes in the tax law should be made to achieve this end.

That does not meet the requirements of the argument. I am grateful to the Minister for accepting the Labour Party amendment, but the preamble to amendment No. 22 applies subsequent to the findings and conclusions of the tribunal. To add the other beneficiaries of the Ansbacher accounts in a further recommendation does not meet the point made from this side of the House. Will the Minister accept the amendment drafted by the Fine Gael Party to allow formal investigation of the accounts?

Deputy Noonan gave a fair resumè of the overall responsibility we all must take into account in discussing the Ansbacher deposits. That was not the same argument put forward by the Labour Party Members. I am dealing with the amendment put forward by Deputies Noonan and Barrett which is considerably different from that put forward by Deputy Howlin, Deputy Rabbitte and other Members of the House. I am asking if this is acceptable to Deputies Noonan and Barrett. I do not want to confuse the two issues.

With respect, the amendment put forward by the Minister is different from the Fine Gael amendment.

It is because——

I am all in favour of protecting the State's tax base, but that is not the issue. As suggested in the Fine Gael amendment, the issue relates to inquiring into the Ansbacher accounts other than those under the beneficial ownership of Deputy Haughey.

It will improve the terms of reference and is not a substitute for amendment No. 21, which I intend to press. I encourage the Minister to amend Deputy Spring's amendment No. 22 by inserting paragraph (p).

I propose to amend amendment No. 22 by inserting paragraph (p).

As it is now 4.30p.m. I must ask that the amendments be moved.

I move amendment No. 1:

After the first paragraph, to insert the following new paragraph:

"Bearing also in mind serious public concern that certain decisions (including as examples those relating to the sale of lands at Carysfort and Glending Woods, the rezonings of land in the greater Dublin area, issues arising from the sale of the Johnson Mooney & O'Brien site in Ballsbridge, Export Credit Insurance, the grant of the ESAT Digifone licence, and the grant of citizenship under the Business Migration Scheme) made by holders of public office may have been improperly influenced or obtained.".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 77.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Tom.
  • Farrelly, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gildea, Thomas.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, William.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Blaney, Harry.
  • Brady, John.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Flynn, Noel.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Wade, Eddie.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Howlin and Ferris; Níl, Deputies Séamus Brennan and Callely.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No 2:

In paragraph (a), after the words "1st January, l979" to insert "and thereafter up to the 31st December, 1996."

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 3

To delete paragraph (b) and substitute the following new paragraph:

"(b) The source of any money held:

(i) in the Ansbacher accounts and

(ii) in any other bank accounts discovered by the Tribunal to be for the benefit of or in the name of Mr. Haughey or for the benefit or in the name of a connected person within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, l995, or for the benefit or in the name of any company owned or controlled by Mr. Haughey.".

This is one of a number of the Opposition's amendments related to the Ansbacher accounts and I will press it.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 22.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Blaney, Harry.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • De Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McGennis, Marion.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Flynn, Noel.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wade, Eddie.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Bell, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Gildea, Thomas.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shortall, Roisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wall, Jack.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Callely; Níl, Deputies Howlin and Ferris.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 4:

After paragraph (b), to add the following:

"To inquire into the Ansbacher Accounts and to establish who were the beneficial owners of the monies in these accounts and the motive for lodging monies in these accounts.".

As the content of this amendment is substantially the same as that in amendment No. 3 and despite the disgraceful action of the Government in not accepting it, I will not press it to a vote.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 5:

After paragraph (b), to add the following:

'To inquire into the background to the Ansbacher Accounts to establish the identify of the owners of the monies held in the Accounts and the reason the monies held in the Ansbacher Accounts remained outside the supervision of the Revenue Commissioners and the banks' regulatory authorities.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 6:

After paragraph (b), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(c) To establish the sources and beneficial ownership of all monies held in the Ansbacher accounts other than the accounts referred to at (b) and to further establish in relation to these accounts, those operated to facilitate normal international business or those held from other motives as suggested in Chapter 6 of the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Payments).".

Amendment put and declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 7:

In paragraph (c), to delete "during the period of his/her tenure".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 not moved.

I move amendment No. 10:

After paragraph (e), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(f) Whether the party leaders allowance paid by Mr Charles Haughey as Leader of the Opposition in the 1980s, out of State funds, was used either in whole or in part to discharge monies or debts due by Mr Charles Haughey or due by any company with which he was associated or due by any connected person to Mr Charles Haughey within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, and in the event that the Tribunal finds that such funds were used either in whole or in part in such manner to make whatever recommendations it considers necessary to ensure that in future that such funds are not used for personal or non political purposes.".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 77.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Tom W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gildea, Thomas.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Roisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, William.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Blaney, Harry.
  • Brady, John.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Flynn, Noel.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wade, Eddie.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett and Sheehan; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Callely.
Amendment declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 11:

In paragraph (h), to delete "during the period of his/her tenure".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 12:

In paragraph (j), to delete "and Mr. Charles Haughey" and substitute ", Mr. Charles Haughey and Mr. Ray Burke".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 13:

In the last line of paragraph (j), after "(a)" to insert "and (b)".

Amendment put and declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 14:

After paragraph (j), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(k) Whether any substantial payments were made, directly or indirectly, to any political party, public representative or Dáil candidate by any person who benefited from the tax amnesties of 1987 or 1993 and to determine if such payments influenced the decision to introduce the amnesties or resulted from the granting of the amnesties.".

Amendment put.

(Dublin West): Votáil.

Will the Deputies who are claiming a division please rise?

Deputies Gildea, Gormley, Higgins (Dublin West), ÓCaoláin and Sargent rose.

As fewer than ten Members have risen I declare the amendment lost. In accordance with Standing Orders the names of the Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Amendment declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 15:

After paragraph (j), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(k) Whether the tax amnesties of 1987 and 1993 were utilised in relation to any funds held in the Ansbacher accounts.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 16:

After paragraph (j), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(k) To examine, in particular, all aspects of the sale and rezoning of 147 acres of State lands at Glending Wood, Co. Wicklow to Roadstone Dublin Ltd. in 1992 and to address the following questions:

(i) Why an asset which could be worth a minimum of £48 million in terms of its reserves of sand and gravel was sold for £1.25 million;

(ii) Why an archaeological site (SMR11) was delisted before the sale and has again been restored;

(iii) Whether there were any connections between the circumstances of the sale of the Glending Wood lands and the fact that Mr. Des Traynor was the chairman of Cement Roadstone Holdings during negotiations leading to the sale while Mr. Charles Haughey was Taoiseach;

(iv) Whether Cement Roadstone Holdings or any subsidiary company donated funds to any political party or politician before or after the purchase of Glending Wood by Roadstone Dublin and whether such donations influenced the terms of sale by the State of these lands, or the rezoning of these lands.".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 76.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Gildea, Thomas.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Tom.
  • Farrelly, John.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, William.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Blaney, Harry.
  • Brady, John.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • O' Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Flynn, Noel.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wade, Eddie.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Higgins(Dublin West) and Gildea; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Callely.
Amendment declared lost.

(Dublin West): I move amendment No. 17:

After paragraph (j), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(k) to examine substantial payments by any person to any political party which has participated in Government since 1987 and to establish whether such payments influenced government policy.".

Amendment put and declared lost.
Amendment No. 18 not moved.

I move amendment No. 19:

After paragraph (j), to insert the following new paragraphs:

"(k) Whether any substantial payments were made directly or indirectly to Mr. Ray Burke (whether or not used to discharge moneys or debts due by Mr. Ray Burke or due by any company with which he was associated or due by any connected person to Mr. Ray Burke within the meaning of the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, or discharged at his direction), during any period when he held public office in circumstances giving rise to a reasonable inference that the motive for making the payment was connected with any public office held by him or had the potential to influence the discharge of such office.

(l) Whether Mr. Burke did any act or made any decision in the course of any public office held by him to confer any benefit on any person making a payment referred to in paragraph (k) or on any other person in return for such payments being made or procured or directed any other person to do such act or make such decision.".

Amendment put and declared lost.
Amendment No. 20 not moved.

I move amendment No. 21:

After paragraph (j), to insert the following new paragraph:

"(k) To investigate the Ansbacher Accounts as referred to and identified in Chapter 6 of the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry (Dunnes Payments) and to identify, in so far as possible, the procedures used whereby the Irish Depositors of such accounts could have their moneys off shore with no record of their deposits in Ireland and to report whether such a system were used by the depositors to evade the payment of tax, or in contravention of exchange control legislation, and to recommend all necessary steps to prevent such mechanisms being used to avoid the payment of tax.".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 76.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Tom.
  • Farrelly, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gildea, Thomas.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P. J.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, William.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Blaney, Harry.
  • Brady, John.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Flynn, Noel.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wade, Eddie.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett and Sheehan; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Callely.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 22:

To delete "And further in particular:-" and paragraphs (k) and (l) and substitute the following:

"And further in particular, in the light of its findings and conclusions, to make whatever broad recommendations it considers necessary or expedient:—

(k) to ensure that the integrity of public administration is not compromised by the dependence of party politics on financial contributions from undisclosed sources

(l) for the reform of the disclosure, compliance, investigation and enforcement provisions of company law (including in particular those which relate to directors' duties)

(m) for securing the formal independence of the Revenue Commissioners in the performance of their functions while at the same time ensuring the greatest degree of openness and accountability in that regard that is consistent with the right to privacy of compliant taxpayers

(n) for enhancing the role and performance of the Central Bank as regular of the banks and of the financial services sector generally, and

(o) for the effective regulation of the conduct of their members by such professional accountancy and other bodies as are relevant to these terms of reference, for the purpose of achieving the highest degree of public confidence.".

I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 22:

To delete "securing the formal" and substitute "maintaining the" in paragraph (m) and to add the following new paragraph (p);

(p) for the protection of the State's tax base from fraud or evasion in the establishment and maintenance of offshore accounts and to recommend whether any changes in the tax law should be made to achieve this end.

Amendment to amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 22, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment No. 23 not moved.
Amendment No. 24 not moved.

I move amendment No. 25:

In subparagraph (i), to delete all words from "To carry out" down to and including "Acts," and substitute the following:

"To carry out such investigations as it thinks fit using all the powers conferred on it under the Acts (including, where appropriate, the power to conduct its proceedings in private),".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 26 not moved.

I move amendment No. 27: After subparagraph (i) to insert the following new subparagraph:

"(ii) To carry out such investigation as it thinks fit using all the powers conferred on it under the acts into the amount, source and circumstances of the financial donation received in 1989 by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Ray Burke, which was the subject of a personal statement by him in Dáil Éireann on September 10 1997, in order to determine whether sufficient evidence exists to warrant proceedings to a full public inquiry in relation to this matter.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 76.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Tom W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gildea, Thomas.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Shortall, Roisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, William.
  • Upton, Pat.
  • Wall, Jack.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Blaney, Harry.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Flynn, Noel.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wade, Eddie.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Howlin and Rabbitte ; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and Callely.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 28:

In subparagraph (iii), to delete "on the steps taken by the Tribunal to determine what evidence, if any, existed" and to substitute "to ensure that the steps taken by the Tribunal to determine what evidence, if any, existed can be identified".

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 29:

To delete the second last paragraph, and substitute the following:

"And that the person or persons selected to conduct the Inquiry should be informed that it is the desire of the House that—

(a) the Inquiry be completed in as economical a manner as possible and at the earliest date consistent with a fair examination of the matters referred to it, and

(b) all costs incurred by reason of the failure of individuals to co-operate fully and expeditiously with the Inquiry should, so far as is consistent with the interests of justice, be borne by those individuals.".

I accept this amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 6.40 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 September 1997.
Barr
Roinn