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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Oct 1997

Vol. 481 No. 5

Priority Questions. - INOU Research Findings.

Michael Bell

Ceist:

4 Mr. Bell asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs his views on the findings of the INOU research document entitled Welfare to Work - the Financial Benefits of Taking up Employment, which research was carried out in response to reports that people were better off on benefits; his views on whether the pathway from benefits can be very complex; the plans, if any, he has to reduce the problems of transfer and the number of agencies involved and to help with the reintroduction to work in particular for the long-term unemployed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16560/97]

The INOU research document entitled "Welfare to Work — the Financial Benefits of Taking up Employment" is an interesting and useful study which seeks to examine the issues relating to the social welfare system and disincentives to employment.

The main finding of the study is that there is a significant reward for unemployed people when they move into paid employment, while it also draws attention to the fact that the complexity of the tax and social welfare systems means that it can be difficult for unemployed people to assess accurately the value of returning to work.

The main finding of the study is valid and substantial progress has been made in making the social welfare system more employment friendly and in dealing with disincentives to employment. The introduction in recent years of substantial PRSI free allowances; the continued enhancement of the family income supplement scheme; the reform of unemployment assistance to make it more attractive for recipients to avail of part-time or casual work opportunities; the continued development of the back-to-work allowance scheme; and the substantial improvements in child benefit which tackles child poverty without creating employment disincentive effects, can be cited as clear examples of the progress made to date in providing real opportunities and incentives to the unemployed, and particularly the long-term unemployed, to make the transition from unemployment into the active labour force.

As regards the difficulties faced by unemployed people in assessing accurately the value of returning to work, my Department is continually seeking to reinforce the message that it pays to work. In this context, my Department joined the INOU, the Small Firms Associations and the National Social Service Board earlier this year to produce practical information booklets for the unemployed and for employers. These publications have been made widely available and outline the range of supports for employers who are considering taking on new employees and for the unemployed who are seeking to make the transition from unemployment to employment.

Among the recommendations contained in the INOU study is that the family income supplement scheme should be calculated on the basis of net income rather than gross income as at present. The Deputy will be aware that a commitment to this effect is contained in the Partnership 2000 agreement and I share the view expressed in the study that this measure will make the scheme easier for people to understand as well as increasing the value of the scheme to low income families.

Our Programme for Government is designed to ensure that we develop an inclusive society where everyone is given the opportunity and the incentive to participate in the workforce and to share in the benefits of our economic growth. It is my intention to give effect to that commitment through the continued development and enhancement of the social welfare system.

I congratulate my constituency colleague on his appointment as Minister. Having shadowed a number of Ministers over the years, I look forward to doing the same with this Minister.

I am glad he has accepted the main thrust of the report as valid. I assume what he means by that is that he, the Department and the Government accept that people are not better off on the dole. I hear this statement made constantly and any of those involved in trade unions do not accept it. The covering letter from the INOU clearly outlines the complexities the unemployed face in dealing with different agencies — up to five in some cases — before their situations can be assessed.

Does the Minister accept that people are not better off on the dole? What positive steps does the Department intend to take to co-ordinate local activity between FÁS and employment exchanges and to provide information to aid the long-term unemployed in returning to work?

I thank my constituency colleague for his kind words on my appointment. It is a fallacy to say any public representative knows people who would rather stay at home and claim dole payments than go to work. I do not accept those anecdotes. Most of us know people who want to work.

I have high regard for the INOU which I have found to be an extremely responsible organisation in my dealings with it. It has been complimentary to the Department which is a testimony to the work done by my predecessors and staff.

One of the key issues regarding whether people are better off on the dole than working is the dissemination of information. Over the years my Department has built up its contacts with groups such as the INOU to ensure the proper information is made available. The Department funds a number of groups, including the INOU, to assist them in the dissemination of information to the people they represent and this should be encouraged.

Does the Minister agree the main disincentives for the long-term unemployed returning to the workplace are the low level of gross pay and the high level of taxation? Does the Minister support the implementation of a national minimum wage which would be a good incentive for the long-term unemployed to return to work, particularly to employment currently paying ridiculously low wages. These employers are not answerable to anyone.

There is some validity in what the Deputy said. Unfortunately there are employers who do not pay a reasonable wage. Most political parties, including my own, have committed themselves to investigating the provision of a minimum wage. A working group has been set up to investigate the area of basic income.

The connection between the local employment offices and FÁS needs to be addressed and is one of the issues which both I and my counterpart in the Department of Enterprise and Employment, the Tánaiste, have already discussed.

I am glad to hear that. In the past, the problem was a lack of co-ordination between the two Departments namely, the Department of Labour — which was virtually eliminated as a separate Department — and the Department of Social Welfare. These two Departments operated under two separate Ministers, in two separate directions and with very little co-ordination between them.

People contact my constituency office to complain that they cannot get a carpenter, a plumber, an electrician or whatever. At the same time, a sizeable number of people with such skills actually sign on for unemployment benefit. Will the Minister consider making available a list of people who are unemployed, especially those with certain skills or crafts, through FÁS and the social welfare system? That would allow people seeking to secure the services of unemployed people access to some form of list system which would be preferable to spending huge amounts of money on advertisements urging unemployed people to take up employment.

The Deputy will be aware that there are job facilitators in my Department who endeavour to assist people looking for employment. Ultimately, however, the responsibility lies with FÁS to do this. The fact that unemployment levels are still relatively high given the state of the economy is a key issue which must be addressed. Yet, we still hear the anecdotal evidence to which Deputy Bell referred where people are experiencing difficulty in getting people to work for them. That is an issue this Government will address seriously; we will ensure co-ordination between Government Departments. That is why the Tánaiste and I have had discussions over the past weeks and, hopefully, we will bring forward proposals to address any logjams there may be on this issue in the months ahead.

Proposals were made in the past in relation to one-stop-shops which would house all job facilitation advice under one roof in local areas. That was a good idea and one which should be looked at again.

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