Vol. 482 No. 5
6 Mr. Broughan asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if she will review the composition of the National Minimum Wage Commission to ensure greater representation for workers; when she will legislate for a minimum wage here; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18349/97]
74 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the plans, if any, she has to introduce a statutory minimum wage in view of the commitments given on this matter. [17609/97]
77 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the progress, if any, made to date by the National Minimum Wage Commission; if she will give details of the membership of the commission and its terms of reference; when it is expected that the commission will report; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18251/97]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 74 and 77 together.
The programme for Government includes, as a key priority, the introduction of a national minimum hourly wage. To give effect to that commitment, I have established a National Minimum Wage Commission. The membership of the commission represents a mix of experience and expertise of business, industrial relations, employment rights and knowledge of the labour market. I am particularly pleased that Ms Evelyn Owens, who is Chairman of the Labour Court, agreed to chair the commission. I am satisfied with the composition of the commission and I do not propose any changes in this regard.
The terms of reference of the commission are to advise on the best way to implement the commitment having regard to the level and extent of low pay in the economy; to examine the range of possible mechanisms for determining and implementing minimum wages and, in combination with it, to describe and assess the existing minimum wage-fixing machinery and its potential for addressing low pay in the economy at large; to examine measures which will address any adverse impact on employment and competitiveness and in particular as regards small and medium enterprises; to consult with the social partners before the finalisation of its report and to report to the Government by the end of 1997.
The commission has issued an open invitation for written submissions and it intends to hold oral hearings. The commission is chaired by Ms Evelyn Owens. The other members are Ms Rita Ahern, a businesswoman, Ms Carmel Bolger, who is involved in education, Mr. Phil Flynn, representing the trade union movement, and Mr. Peter Malone, representing IBEC's side of the social partnership. The secretary to the commission is Ms Lorraine Benson from my Department.
Deputy Perry referred to a report on Tuesday to the effect that the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, seems to have usurped the Minister's role.
I wondered if, given the pressure which the Government is under, the Taoiseach had decided to reshuffle the Tánaiste and some of the other Progressive Democrats out and to shuffle the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, in.
He is a plasticene man.
He was pontificating about the level——
I remind the Deputy he must ask a short supplementary question.
Why is the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, pontificating on the Tánaiste's portfolio and stating what should be the level of a minimum wage? Did the Tánaiste complain to the Taoiseach about this and is she taking any steps?
Is it not a fact there is no direct representative of the trade union movement on the commission? The Tánaiste referred to a former trade unionist and a former business representative. My understanding is that there is no direct representative on the commission. Is it a fact that two members of the commission are from the Tánaiste's constituency and were, perhaps, appointed for her own reasons? Is the commission sufficiently broadly based to enable it to produce the necessary report?
It has been proven in Europe and the US, which is the most dynamic economy in the world, that a minimum wage works very successfully in creating jobs. Would the Tánaiste not agree that the issue of low pay and the gender gap, which is referred to in a later question, is particularly relevant to women? Low skilled workers, particularly women, are paid appalling wages. Given the progress of the Celtic tiger, we can well afford to have a decent minimum wage for all.
If any members of the commission live in my constituency I am not aware of that fact. I have no real personal knowledge of any of the people I appointed.
Does the Tánaiste know their addresses?
I do not know whether any of the members live in my constituency. I know one of them teaches in my constituency; she was a nominee of the Taoiseach to the commission. I do not want the Deputy to think I nominated any member of the commission because they are personal friends or because of where they live. I stand subject to correction if they live in my constituency, but if they do it is accidental.
Peter Malone comes from the IBEC perspective. I accept we did not have direct representation groups——
Why not?
It was because we felt this was the most appropriate way to do it. I had informal consultations with both the trade union movement and the employers' organisation. The group which was put together is balanced in terms of gender, perspective, experience and expertise. I suggest it would be helpful if Deputy Broughan made a submission to the commission.
I am concerned about low pay and the exploitation of workers. It is true that women and young people are particularly exploited in certain sectors of the workforce. It may be the case that that happens much more in the black economy than in the legitimate one. The commission will have to establish the extent of low pay in the first instance.
I am concerned that we move in this regard in a sensitive way. At the moment, 100,000 workers are covered by the existing joint labour committee machinery, through which rates of pay covering 17 categories of workers, ranging from law clerks to caterers and cleaners, have been struck. That machinery has been relatively successful and we must examine its impact. This is a very complex area, as other countries realised when they sought to legislate for it, and we want to do it appropriately and fairly, recognising that no pay and no work is the greatest discrimination of all. The manner in which the Government has sought to implement the firm commitment in the programme for Government is the most effective way to proceed in this area.
With half the young people in the workforce in the low wage bracket, there is an urgent need for a reasonable minimum wage. The Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy O'Dea, biased the supposed independence of the commission when he criticised the suggested minimum wage. How can the Government stand over a Minister of State criticising a minimum wage when there is supposed to be an independent commission deliberating on the issue? The Taoiseach said one thing, the Minister of State another. The Government is running around like a headless chicken.
The Deputy did not ask a question.
Does the Minister agree with that?
(Dublin West): The Tánaiste is on record as admiring the low wage and sweatshop economies of south-east Asia, where factory conditions for many workers are often similar to those endured by unfortunate battery hens in factory farms. Exploitation is rife and, in some instances, conditions approach slave labour. Has she been converted in the meantime and has she been informed that, outside the black economy, low wages are a major scourge in the Irish economy, a major cause of poverty and suffering in many families and that there is huge exploitation? Will she also agree that a figure of £5 per hour is the lowest that could be contemplated for some level of dignity and comfort in the lives of ordinary people?
I never expressed admiration for the things the Deputy suggested I said. However, if the Irish economy is to continue to be successful it must compete with many of the countries in the region to which he referred. That is the reality.
The Tánaiste said the people in those countries were poor but happy.
That often follows.
Deputy Broughan is never too happy. Many wealthy people are unhappy. Happiness is not necessarily always associated with material things; our expectations are much higher than that.
I will not speculate on the appropriate figure. A number of factors have to be taken into account, including experience, age, skill levels and so on. That is why it is appropriate that the kind of commission I have established, which has the necessary expertise, is in the best position to produce a mechanism for dealing with minimum wages.
In response to Deputy Broughan, I did not make a complaint about the comments made by the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea. I do not have all the tendencies of the former Tánaiste; I do not complain about things, rather I get on with my job. Deputy O'Dea is entitled to express a view. We are not a Government of zombies.
Did he not compromise the commission?
Debate and difference are very healthy in a free and liberal society. We should appreciate that and not attempt to stifle them. I am sure there will be healthy debate within the commission. I invite Deputy Broughan and others with an interest in this matter to make a submission. It would be a useful exercise.
The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, said that setting a minimum wage as high as £5 per hour would damage the prospects of school leavers. Does the Minister agree with this statement and, if not, has she spoken to him? Does she agree that this will compromise the independent standing of the commission?
I do not believe it will compromise the independent standing of the commission. Members of the commission are mature adults with much experience and expertise. I am sure they will reach their own conclusions.
The greatest exploitation of all is having no job, being alienated from society and having no right to contribute and participate. Our young people want a chance to participate in the economic and social development of this country and I am determined they will get that chance and that they will be rewarded fairly for doing it.
One of my concerns is that exploitation, in so far as I often see it, is usually associated with the black economy. That is why it becomes very difficult to deal with it. The contributory factors include the high levels of taxation on personal income. This needs to be addressed urgently to ensure everybody who goes out to work is justly rewarded for their efforts and participation.
Does the Minister agree with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea?
I agree with the comments made by my socialist colleague. On the question of a minimum wage, during the campaign the Taoiseach gave a commitment to set the figure at £3 per hour. Was that not a ludicrous proposal in Irish conditions? It is a ridiculously low level. The Economic Policy Institute in Washington in a briefing paper entitled, The Sky Hasn't Fallen, has shown conclusively that young people in particular have benefited enormously as a result of establishing a level below which wages, in sectors in which they are vulnerable such as catering, are not allowed to fall. The Centre For Economic Performance in the United Kingdom has shown clearly that in the years prior to 1994 when the Thatcherites and the Tories abolished the labour committees there was some protection for workers across a range of industries. I urge the Minister to move quickly on this matter.
(Dublin West): The Minister remarked that material goods do not equate with happiness. Will she agree that a home is a necessary possession for at least a little happiness in people's lives? Does she realise that this is outside the reach of growing numbers of workers because their wages do not allow them to purchase or rent their own homes? The question of exploitation should be resolved as a matter of urgency.
I agree that everybody should have access to adequate housing. We have one of the highest rates of home ownership which is being put outside people's reach for a number of reasons, not least of which is the failure of some people to rezone lands for residential development. The price of land is on the increase because of the scarcity of rezoned lands.
(Dublin West): Speculation is one of the major reasons.
This question relates to the setting of a minimum wage.
One hundred thousand Irish workers in 17 categories are covered by the JLC machinery. They have benefited enormously as a result. I am committed to implementing the commitment given in the programme for Government but I wish to do so in a way that is practical and will not cause problems for small and mediumsized businesses with the result that people are put out of work. That would only lead to further exploitation. It is a question of how we will do it rather than whether we will do it.
