Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1997

Vol. 483 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take: No. 8a, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates [Votes 2, 16, 26, 27, 28 and 29] and, subject to the agreement of No. 8a, to take Supplementary Estimates [Votes 2 and 16]; No. 14, statements on the Book of Estimates, 1998 — subject to the agreement of No. 8a, Supplementary Estimates [Votes 26, 27, 28 and 29] shall be taken today following the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the Order shall resume thereafter.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) The Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and Business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) No. 8a shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (3) Subject to the agreement of No. 8a, Supplementary Estimates [Votes 2 and 16] shall be moved together and shall be decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (4) No. 14, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) The opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) The statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) A Minister or Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes; (5) Subject to the agreement of No. 8a, Supplementary Estimates [Votes 26, 27, 28 and 29] shall be moved and debated together and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) The proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after one hour by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (ii) The speech of a Minister or Minister of State, of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party and of each other Member called upon, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) A Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; (6) Private Members' business shall be No. 4, Protection of Workers (Shops) Bill, 1997, Second Stage (resumed), and the proceedings on the Second Stage thereof shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with 8a agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Supplementary Estimates, Votes 2 and 16, agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with 14 agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Supplementary Estimates, Votes 26, 27, 28 and 29, agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach report to the House on the progress made in dealing with the increasing traffic problem in Dublin and the implementation of the freeflow operation between now and Christmas?

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter is not relevant now. However, there can be a wide-ranging discussion during the debate on the Estimates. I am sure the Deputy will find an opportunity of raising the matter during that debate.

Mr. J. Bruton

I appreciate that and will not prolong the issue as long as one's journeys to the House have been prolonged by traffic. Will the Taoiseach report on this matter to the House at an appropriate time given the necessity for him to take a hand in it?

Mr. Quinn

Will the Taoiseach confirm the reports in today's newspapers to the effect that the Government has accepted the Bill dealing with the tribunals' inquiries proposed by me on behalf of the Labour Party? When will the legislation be taken in the House? Will he also confirm that on enactment it will apply to the two inquiries?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked me two weeks ago to look at his Bill and, apart from minor amendments, the Government has accepted it in full. It was cleared by Cabinet yesterday and if it can be taken before Christmas it will be useful. My intention is that it will apply to the tribunals. Mr. Justice Moriarty has made it clear that he will begin public hearings early in the new year. The Bill will close the clear loopholes which exist so that if the State wishes to recover costs it will be within its ambit to do so.

Mr. Quinn

I thank the Taoiseach. Will he confirm that it is the Government's intention to have the Bill passed by this and the other House before Christmas?

The Taoiseach

That is my intention, with the co-operation of the Whips. The Bill deals with an anomaly and it should not be subject to too much debate. I am not sure of the date Mr. Justice Moriarty intends to begin public hearings but it would be safer to have the Bill passed by both Houses before the Christmas recess.

Mr. Allen

Will the Taoiseach, who has a deep interest in sport, immediately contact RTÉ about its plans to scrap the Saturday "Sports Stadium"——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Allen

which is a surrender to Sky Sports and commercialism in sport?

Mr. Deasy

Will the Tánaiste give an undertaking to meet Waterford Deputies this morning to discuss developments in the Avonmore-Waterford Group?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business, but it may be raised in the debate today on employment policy.

Mr. Deasy

I have been requesting a meeting with the Tánaiste since last week and she has not even come back to me on the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise at this stage.

Mr. Finucane

The Tánaiste is good on news about Tallaght but is not available when there is bad news.

Mr. Deasy

I would like the Tánaiste to sit down and discuss the matter with us. She is being hoodwinked by Avonmore-Waterford Group management.

The Taoiseach

The Tánaiste has met management and workers of the company and is prepared to meet the Deputies later today.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach said he is prepared to take on board the Bill presented by Deputy Quinn in respect of the tribunal of inquiry, which is an important matter, but is it of relative insignificance by comparison with the exclusion from inquiry of the Ansbacher accounts? When legislation is brought forward, will that matter be dealt with also? Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the Government will vote against the Bill originally introduced by Deputy Kitt and reintroduced by Deputy Broughan? If so, it will be the only case in the history of the House where a Bill committed suicide in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Jim Higgins.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach answer my question on the Ansbacher accounts?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Jim Higgins.

Mr. Rabbitte

I have asked a question which is in order on the Order of Business. Both matters relate to promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does that relate to promised legislation?

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach has confirmed it is promised legislation.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Will the Taoiseach say at what stage is the Refugee Bill? What is the problem with amendments? Even if there is a problem with the courts, has the Government sought an early hearing in respect of existing difficulties? I do not believe there are difficulties. The Bill should go ahead. Does the Taoiseach appreciate the urgency of it, particularly in light of the highly racist comments in today's newspapers attributed to Deputy Callely, which are an incitement to hatred?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): People are queuing up outside the Department seeking basic human rights. Will the Taoiseach confirm the Bill will be amended in its final stage before Christmas?

The Taoiseach

That Bill is already enacted.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is not operational.

The Taoiseach

There is a High Court case pending, which I would like to see dealt with, but I cannot decide those cases. As soon as that case is dispensed with, the various sections of the Bill may be enacted, but until then they are frozen.

Mr. Quinn

In view of the extraordinary chaos and incompetence revealed yesterday by the Minister for Justice, for which he accepts no responsibility, when is it proposed to introduce the court services Bill which I presume would ensure that one part of the Government would communicate with the other and that gardaí and District Justices would be informed of their obligations under legislation enacted in the House? The Minister for Justice refuses to do anything about this.

The Taoiseach

I understand the order for Second Stage of that Bill is being made and it has to go to the Seanad.

Mr. Quinn

Since it was impossible to get clear replies to questions posed here yesterday afternoon, will the Taoiseach provide for the taking of necessary amendments during the passage of the Bill to ensure District Justices are informed of their powers under the legislation in a manner in which everybody is aware of their rights and responsibilities, including the Minister for Justice?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot deal with that matter in detail at this stage.

Mr. R. Bruton

When will the school attendance Bill be published? This Bill, promised some time ago, is all the more urgent now because of the findings of the Clondalkin survey. If the Taoiseach cannot promise its publication in the near future, will he introduce interim measures, which could be subsequently underpinned by legislation, to deal with school attendance in areas where the gardaí are inappropriately trying to enforce it?

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be published early next year, but this is a more complex issue. It is not merely a matter of dealing with school attendance. The Minister for Education has expressed his views on a number of aspects in the excellent report published by the Clondalkin partnership group. It is a question of publishing a Bill and dealing with the other aspects that have been highlighted.

Mr. R. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach appoint a group to deal with school attendance in the interim?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on the matter now.

Ms McManus

When will legislation be published as a result of the Cabinet decision yesterday to overhaul of the Garda force. Unfortunately, we have to read about such plans in the newspapers. The House was not informed of them.

Mr. Quinn

The Minister is not responsible.

Ms McManus

Will the Taoiseach publish the plans and indicate to the House the legislation that will flow from the decision to overhaul the Garda force?

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation promised in that area. The Deputy will recall that on Question Time two weeks ago I was asked to publish the comprehensive SMI report on the efficiency and effectiveness of the Garda force. That will be published today.

Mr. Shatter

In the context of the Taoiseach's response regarding the Waterford-Avonmore group, will he explain why the Tánaiste, having indicated last week she would meet the workers of the Premier Dairies plant——

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter is not appropriate at this stage.

Mr. Shatter

——before an announcement was made, declined to do so? Will the Taoiseach specify——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business is not the appropriate time to clarify such matters.

Mr. Shatter

——the workers with whom the Tánaiste met? She certainly declined to meet the workers in the Rathfarnham plant.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Silence is golden.

Mr. Shatter

Obviously there is no reply.

Mr. Stagg

Is legislation planned, promised or contemplated to deal with the position of Oasis fans——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, that is not appropriate on the Order of Business.

Mr. Stagg

I am asking about promised legislation.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Deputy Naughten will get the Deputy a ticket.

Mr. Stagg

Is legislation promised in this area?

An Ceann Comhairle

Legislation has not been promised.

Mr. Currie

On promised legislation, in light of the dreadful truancy figures for north Clondalkin, will the Taoiseach confirm that before we left office a school attendance Bill to update the 1926 legislation was ready? What is holding up this Bill?

Mr. Martin

The Bill was not ready.

Mr. Currie

This is another Bill which was ready before we left office but the Government is sitting on it.

The Taoiseach

It was not in its final stages before the last Government left office. An updated draft of the Bill was received in July and discussions on it are ongoing.

Mr. Currie

The old legislation dates from 1926.

Mr. Sargent

On promised legislation, the Taoiseach mentioned that the delay in the school attendance Bill was dependent on other matters. Does he intend to introduce measures alongside that Bill to deal with the poverty, unemployment, alcohol and drug addiction and marital breakdown that is seen to be the root cause of the problem? Is that what is causing the delay and, if not, will he bring the Bill forward quickly?

Because the Ombudsman has called for a human rights commission and because of the meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, will the Government bring forward that commission?

The Taoiseach

I did not say that what was delaying the school attendance Bill was other matters. I said the Bill was taking its normal course but there were other matters such as literacy, juvenile crime, educational qualification, employment and training.

Mr. Hayes

The legislation was complete

Mr. Currie

Those other matters are covered under the Children Bill.

Mr. Martin

The school attendance Bill was flawed. It mentioned regional education boards which the previous Government had no intention of setting up.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please

Mr. Martin

I have done far more than the previous Government. There was no viable structure in place.

Mr. J. Bruton

Deputy Martin should come back over here, he was far more convincing then.

Mr. Martin

Deputy Bruton is far more convincing where he is now.

Mr. Farrelly

Has the Taoiseach found the money for which the farmers of Ireland are waiting? At yesterday's Cabinet meeting did he ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food——

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. M. Smith

It is in the post.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): On promised legislation, there seems to be some confusion on the Refugee Act. The Taoiseach is talking about the implementation of that Act but is he aware that the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, is on record as promising a new Bill to amend that Act? On 2 October he said as much to Amnesty International and he told the public press the following day but he does not seem to have told the Taoiseach. What is the state of play? Will we have an amending Bill or is there a problem with the implementation of the Act?

Mr. Howlin

The Minister would not have told the Taoiseach.

Mr. Shatter

Is the Minister a political refugee?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Shatter is wasting his time trying to hassle me. I have answered this question on numerous occasions but I will go through it again. The Refugee Act has been passed but a pending court case is blocking the implementation of a number of sections of the Act. As I have stated in the House on at least five occasions, any amendments and changes which will be necessary following that court case will be implemented by the Minister. It is likely that, of necessity, there will be amendments following the High Court case.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Are we effectively talking about a new Bill?

The Taoiseach

Not necessarily but we have to wait until the case has concluded.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): If the Act is deemed acceptable will we not require a new Bill?

The Taoiseach

We cannot interfere with the High Court.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Taoiseach clarify the situation in regard to the enactment of legislation, particularly the Refugee Act? Is he aware there is legal opinion that the Act can be fully enacted, irrespective of the High Court case? Has he received a counter legal opinion? Otherwise, any citizen can delay new legislation by taking a High Court case on it.

Secondly, in regard to the enactment——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the issue now.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I just want to have the position in regard to the Refugee Act clarified. If the Taoiseach has received legal opinion that the Act cannot be implemented, will he ask the High Court for an immediate hearing of this issue? Is the Taoiseach not ashamed that Deputy Callely is——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate this issue on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Naughten

When does the Taoiseach hope to introduce the promised safety guidelines for outdoor concerts? The draft report has been with the Government for some time.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does that relate to promised legislation?

Mr. Belton

There is some pop concert going on over there.

The Taoiseach

The Minister of State in the Department of Education is dealing with that matter.

Mr. Gormley

Is the Taoiseach aware that the EU data protection directive must be transposed into national law by October 1998? When will that Bill be introduced in the House?

The Taoiseach

It is hoped the Data Protection Bill will be introduced in the spring.

Mr. Quinn

With regard to promised legislation which may be necessary as a result of a determination by the High Court of an issue which does not concern the core of the Refugee Act but merely an age qualification, and having regard to the racist incitement with Deputy Callely has now embarked upon——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Finucane

Deputy Callely has arrived.

Ms O'Donnell

What about Senator Joe Costello — has he lost his nerve?

Mr. Quinn

——will the Taoiseach consider attempting to have this court case settled without a long delay in jurisdiction so that the Act can be implemented?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the issue now.

Mr. Quinn

I am asking the question because he indicated that promised legislation may be necessary on foot of a High Court decision. That legislation could be brought forward if an agreement was made between——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is hypothetical, we cannot debate it now.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Finucane

The refugee from Dublin North Central has arrived.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Higgins wish to raise a final question?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

I called Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): In regard to——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was not called.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. M. Higgins

I wish to raise two matters.

In regard to the matter on which the House has expressed its concern, it would be most appropriate if Deputy Callely publicly apologised for his remarks yesterday.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

The issue does not arise on the Order of Business. Another way must be found to raise it.

Mr. M. Higgins

We should facilitate at the earliest opportunity an apology for the expression of sentiments which have no place in a democratic society.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Which other matter did the Deputy wish to raise?

Mr. M. Higgins

Will the Taoiseach indicate the stage of preparation of the Broadcasting Bill? Have new heads of legislation been agreed and is the publication date still set for before February 1998?

The Taoiseach

I am not sure of the precise date but the Bill will be ready in early 1998.

Mr. Stanton

Is the Government proposing to oppose any other legislation as it did the Protection of Workers (Shops) Bill? Keeping up with the number of Government U-turns is causing confusion. Perhaps the Taoiseach will indicate in advance any future U-turns.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does this relate to any legislation here?

Mr. J. Bruton

It comes under road traffic legislation.

The Taoiseach

It is a sad when the Opposition parties introduce no other legislation than a Bill that has outlived its usefulness.

Mr. Stagg

It was good enough for us when we were in Government; it should be good enough for the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Excellent new proposals have been introduced by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, which deal with this complex issue. I congratulate the Minister of State on his excellent work.