Vol. 484 No. 4
4 Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Taoiseach if he will review the role of the Central Statistics Office in order to extend its remit to the measurement of criminal justice statistics, including court statistics, crime statistics, prison statistics and related statistics. [20247/97]
Criminal justice statistics are the responsibility of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and, in the case of crime, prisons and probation statistics, are published in annual reports. Some statistics on the criminal justice system are also published annually by the Central Statistics Office in its statistical abstract.
Under the Statistics Act, 1993, the Central Statistics Office has the authority to co-ordinate statistics compiled by other public authorities. However, its right to access the records of public authorities does not extend to the records pertaining to a court, the Garda Síochána or the prisons administration. While administrative records provide valuable information on reported crime, it is the view of the Central Statistics Office that estimates of actual, as distinct from reported, crime could be based only on national representative surveys.
In September, the CSO launched the new quarterly national household survey, which will be an important source of statistics about the population, households and the labour market. It involves surveying 39,000 households per quarter throughout the country. Consideration is being given to including a module on crime in this survey for a future quarter.
The 1998 Estimates for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform included a specific provision of £250,000 for research. In the circumstances I see no need to review the role of the Central Statistics Office in respect of criminal justice statistics.
Will the Minister agree we are passing one item of draconian legislation after another, some of which are needed, but there must come a time when, viewed against the rate of crime scientifically established, we are able to measure the rate of success. Last evening I watched the "Cook Report" on a British television station where it was estimated that £50 billion worth of goods are stolen each year in the UK to fund a drugs problem. On a ratio of 10:1 the figure here could be as high as £5 billion but I doubt if it is that high, given that the heroin problem is confined to Dublin by and large but we do not know its extent. How can we hope to tackle this extensive problem if we do not have some basic statistical information on which to calculate success or failure?
In fairness Deputy Mitchell has been consistent on this matter. In 1993 he published a Private Members' Bill — the National Bureau of Crime Statistics Bill, 1993 — which was debated in the House in February 1994 and opposed by the then Minister. The Deputy also had a number of meetings with senior officials on the subject. It has had some effect because the view of the Central Statistics Office is that the inclusion of a question on crime in the new quarterly national household survey would be useful and give us some valuable information. It also urged the Government to come to the decision whereby it allocated £250,000 to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform specifically for crime research and producing crime figures. It was helpful also in getting the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to publish its own figures. It publishes figures in the case of crime, prisons and probation statistics in its annual reports. The view of the CSO is that this is information on actual crime. It is contained in the annual reports and, combined with the quarterly national household survey, it should give us the information we need.
Will the Minister agree that the report on crime statistics as published by the Garda Síochána is only on reported crime? Human nature being what it is, there is nothing in it for the Garda to maximise the level of reporting. I am not suggesting the figures are tampered with but they reflect only a measure of reported crime. Given that a new court services authority is being established, would it not be useful to know which court decisions operate more effectively than others? For example, some judges suspend part of the sentence or bring back a criminal half way through a sentence to review how he or she is getting on and may suspend the remainder of the sentence based on their behaviour. If we had a statistical analysis of how successful these decisions were we might be able to tailor our approach to legislation and other resources in the House. Similarly, if we had an ongoing measurement of recidivism and the effect of sentences on prisoners and on the community we might be better able to tackle the problem.
I appreciate the Minister's acknowledgement that I have been pursuing this matter for some time. We cannot tackle this problem effectively and efficiently without basic analytical statistics on which to measure the success or failure of this approach. Irrespective of the view of the Central Statistics Office and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, will the Minister, who has responsibility for the whole area of statistical analysis and policy, have a fresh look at this matter with a view to arriving at a comprehensive measurement of the problem so that we might be better equipped to deal with it and to formulate a response more in keeping with the need rather than with the imagined need?
I am a great believer in the dictum that if you cannot measure it you cannot manage it. I fervently believe in measuring performance because then one can make the necessary management decisions. I have no trouble with that concept. I am informed in the strongest possible terms that there are two annual reports on different issues from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on crime and prisons and on the probation and the welfare service, giving full statistics. I take the Deputy's point about reported crime. The best way of dealing with unreported crime is for the CSO to include in the new quarterly national household survey a question on crime. The indications are that if the surveys are taken quarterly over six or nine months we should have a clear picture of the crime incidence, given that the survey is carried out very scientifically and professionally. It should give a good picture of unreported crime. I will ensure that question is included in the quarterly national household survey with a view to discovering the level of unreported crime. By definition it is hard to measure it. The CSO has advised the best way to proceed is to use the quarterly national household survey and see what information emerges.
(Mayo): The Minister made the point that the CSO co-ordinates a range of statistics for different agencies. In relation to the court statistics, the report on the probation and welfare service is a separate report, albeit under the guise of the prison service. The reports on the prisons and the Garda Síochána are also separate. There is a whole series of statistics, in many cases relating to a single individual who would have been through the entire system. Given all the computerisation nobody synchronises or co-ordinates the data. From the point of view of criminal research it is crucial that somebody should prepare a comprehensive and co-ordinated report in relation to all the statistics so that there can be a proper evaluation of the entire crime scene as well as proper research into the causes of crime.
I understand the point being made by the Deputy. Under the Statistics Act, 1993, the CSO has an overriding duty to co-ordinate statistics compiled by other public agencies. However, in the justice area — courts, prisons and the Garda Síochána — it does not have that right and as such they must compile the reports themselves. Under the 1998 Estimates a specific provision of £250,000 has been allocated to them to improve their research. Apart from the quarterly national household survey, the Central Statistics Office should not become more deeply involved at this stage given that it would lead to duplication. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is providing figures for this area and we should await the quarterly national household survey to see how it works. I shall bring this to the attention of the CSO and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The information requested is best produced by the Department.
I thank the Minister for his reply. Deputy Quinn referred earlier to levels of unemployment. At one time it was believed that the levels of unemployment were much higher than was the case. The statistical analysis of unemployment shows the signing on figure does not represent the full level of unemployment. A similar problem arises with the crime level. For example, if we knew how much is stolen every year to fund the drugs habit — the figure quoted in the UK is £50 billion and the figure here could be £5 billion or £1 billion — it might pay us to put money into rehabilitation in the prison service and persuade the public to support that. I ask the Minister to consider this matter on a statistical basis. A great public service could be done by implementing the system I propose.
I will consider that matter.
