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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Jan 1998

Vol. 486 No. 2

Other Questions. - Ombudsman for Children.

Róisín Shortall

Ceist:

4 Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Health and Children if he will outline the proposals, if any, in relation to the establishment of a social services inspectorate; the commitment, if any, to make foster care available to every child who needs it; the consideration, if any, of the earlier deferred ideal of an ombudsman for children; his views on the establishment of an association of children in care; his further views on the introduction of mandatory reporting of sexual abuse of children in view of the Government's commitments given recently to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2261/98]

Dan Neville

Ceist:

5 Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Health and Children if he will clarify statements made by the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Liz O'Donnell, in relation to the early introduction of a children's ombudsman, the mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse and the constitutional amendment to underpin the individual rights of children; if he will outline a time frame for dealing with these matters; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2259/98]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 5 together.

The establishment of a social services inspectorate is a priority for the Government. It has been decided to proceed with the inspectorate on an administrative basis initially and it will be located in the Department of Health and Children. Advertisements for positions in the inspectorate will be placed as soon as the detailed arrangements for its establishment have been approved.

The development of foster care services will be discussed with the health boards with a view to ensuring that foster care can be made available in all appropriate cases.

As I indicated yesterday, the appointment of an ombudsman for children has implications for a number of Departments dealing with issues relating to children and it will be necessary to clarify the departmental roles and responsibilities in this regard. In terms of the resources available to me in 1998, I have identified the establishment of a social services inspectorate as a top priority and, accordingly, I propose the establishment of the inspectorate immediately. However, I am committed to the introduction of an ombudsman for children in due course.

With regard to the establishment of an association for children in care, the health boards have been asked for their views on this matter and, while a formal response is awaited, it is understood there is no objection in principle. It is envisaged that it should be possible to have this association established during 1998. As I explained to the House last year, I am adopting a broad approach to the issue of improving the reporting of child abuse. The mandatory reporting of child abuse is a commitment in An Action Programme for the Millennium and it will be introduced in the lifetime of the Government. I regard it as essential that this is done in a way which will have wide support from the professions which will have to comply with the requirement and produce a reporting scheme which is efficient, effective and sensitive to the needs of children. I also consider that considerable additional investment in our childcare services will be required in advance of the introduction of mandatory reporting.

I have already announced my intention of continuing the progress of initiatives to strengthen arrangements for reporting of child abuse as outlined in the document, Putting Children First — Promoting and Protecting the Rights of Children. I am in the process of establishing a working group to review the 1987 and 1995 child abuse guidelines. I consider this a crucial first step in creating an environment which will help to facilitate the reporting of child abuse. We have seen enormous changes in regard to the level of awareness of child abuse in the last ten years and a considerable expansion of services to protect vulnerable children. Our knowledge of this complex area has increased and the time is opportune to review these guidelines.

The working group will have an independent chairperson and will include representatives of the following agencies: the Departments of Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Education and Science, health boards, the Garda Síochána, the children's rights alliances and the voluntary sector, the Irish College of General Practitioners, the Irish Association of Social Workers, the Resident Managers Association, IMPACT and the INTO. I will announce the membership of the group and its terms of reference next week.

Regarding a possible constitutional amendment to underpin the rights of the child, this matter has been referred to the all-party committee on the Constitution for its views.

I thank the Minister of State. In relation to the social services inspectorate, when does the Minister of State intend placing it on a statutory basis? The provision of foster care services for all children who require them will entail the allocation of huge resources. Has the Minister of State quantified the level of resources needed? When will he be in a position to state that sufficient foster care places are available for all children who need them?

Regarding the undertakings given to establish an ombudsman for children, the Minister of State said there is a need to clarify the roles of various organisations and individuals. As one of the outstanding needs in the child care area, what type of timescale does the Minister of State have in mind for this matter? How long will it take to clarify those roles and when does the Minister of State think the office will be established?

I broadly agree with the Minster of State's approach to mandatory reporting. A considerable lead in time will be required and there is undoubtedly a need for substantial additional resources to be provided for the child care area before mandatory reporting can be introduced. Has the Minister of State quantified the resources required? What timescale does he have in mind for the introduction of mandatory reporting?

I again remind Deputies that omnibus supplementary questions are not in order. I call Deputy Neville.

The Minister of State may wish to reply.

We plan to proceed with the immediate establishment of the social services inspectorate. A sum of £300,000 has been provided for the employment of eight people who will be recruited from outside the Department for the inspectorate. I consider it vitally important in terms of providing an improvement in standards and to create benchmark standards for the implementation of child care measures.

When will that legislation be introduced?

We are setting this facility up on an administrative basis.

Immediately. A sum of £300,000 has been provided and we will proceed shortly with the placement of advertisements. It will have the job of upgrading the provision of childcare services. I intend to ensure that it is independent in the Department of Education and Science in the same way as the inspector of mental institutions is independent. It will make a critical analysis of the performance of the Department, the health boards and the voluntary sector. It is an important step forward.

When will it be put on a statutory basis?

We will monitor its performance. I have no problem putting it on a statutory basis. However, it must be established and start doing the important work that urgently needs to be done. I will report back to the Deputy about the issue of placing it on a statutory basis.

I place this matter ahead of the ombudsman for children because I do not have the staffing or financial resources to proceed immediately with the appointment of such an ombudsman. I accept the point made in Geneva that it is important to make such an appointment. I am in discussion with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Cowen, to try to secure a cross-departmental role for the ombudsman and in terms of the strategy regarding children which everybody agrees is required. We are examining that issue and intend to bring proposals to the House. I accept that a long lead-in time is needed for mandatory reporting, which has caused much unnecessary division. We all want to provide the most effective system of reporting so that no case is unreported. We are not providing the most effective response, as Deputy Shortall will be aware of from the Eastern Health Board region. I compliment her on her leadership in this respect. However, we are unable to respond to the number of reports received due to a lack of resources. All parties must accept that there is a need for a massive increase in the resources being provided for children. My objective is to point the way for the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance.

I regard foster care as the most important single issue in the child care area. It is a wonderful resource that is very cost effective. Foster parents take care of the most vulnerable and neglected children. My greatest priority is to expand this service to the point where every child who needs it can avail of foster care. Parents who foster children, giving them the love and attention they require badly, are the best people we have. I meet people who have fostered from 40 to 60 children with very little support from the State. Those children would be very neglected if it were not for that care. I intend to expand this facility, though it costs a great deal of money.

Will the Minister of State clarify the situation regarding mandatory reporting? His party's programme for Government stated clearly that it would be introduced. Before Christmas a broad approach to mandatory reporting was mentioned by the Minister, and that has been repeated today. That is a conversion to the position of the previous Minister of State, Deputy Currie. I have no problem with that, but there is much confusion because of the statement of the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell, in Geneva to the effect that mandatory reporting would be introduced. The Minister of State spoke about a broad approach to mandatory reporting. Does he accept that there is confusion in the child care service about what is going to happen?

The confusion is being caused by people like Deputy Neville who seem to harp on about mandatory reporting without defining it or, as I have found, without knowing what it is. I have been very specific on each occasion I have dealt with this issue, and I have been specific today. Mandatory reporting is in the programme for Government, and it is intended to implement it during the lifetime of the Government. There are two critical agreements that must first be put in place. First, protocols and procedures must be agreed with the professionals involved. Second, there must be a significant increase in the amount of resources made available to deal with the increased number of reports.

I must be cognisant of the real fears of many professionals in this field. Consequently, I am proceeding with this working group to strengthen the guidelines and to set up binding protocols and procedures. It will then be a matter of putting these on the Statute Book.

I am sure the Minister of State is genuine in his commitment to his brief. Does he accept that because of this Government's downgrading of the importance of children he is in an impossible position? He does not have the co-ordinating authority to bring in the necessary reforms. He should answer the grave concerns raised by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child due to the lack of co-ordination. There is no focus because of the fragmentation. In view of this, how does the Minister of State feel he can deliver on an ombudsman? The Government was shamed at the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child into making commitments. I presume there are no resources for an ombudsman in 1998. The Minister should clarify this. It is one thing to go abroad and put one's best foot forward to impress people far away but it is another matter to stand over those commitments at home. We need to be told what the precise position is, not the Minister of State's aspirational position.

I did not believe in the introduction of mandatory reporting, but neither do I believe in a Government which says one thing this minute and another the next. Does the Minister of State agree with a clear statement made to the UN committee by the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell? She said that in 1997 there were non-binding guidelines which governed such matters in the health boards. These were found to be ineffective in the view of Deputy O'Donnell, who did not believe that the reporting of the crime of child abuse should be left to the discretion of professionals.

If that is the view of a Government Minister while speaking to such an important committee, how can the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, maintain that he can continue consultation on the basis of reporting by professionals? Are these not two totally contradictory views on mandatory reporting? I have asked three separate questions, and I deserve three separate answers.

My colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, suggests that I remind the Deputy not to be politically mischievous about such a sensitive issue. She runs the risk of confusing herself.

It is not politically mischievous to do my job. That is my democratic right.

The Deputy is being politically mischievous.

I do not need to be lectured by the Minister.

I am not lecturing. I am giving my opinion. That is my democratic right.

The Minister should grow up.

The Deputy should grow up.

While I hold this office I do not intend to state aspirations about children. That is why I have been very frank. I cannot introduce the provisions for an ombudsman this year. Contrast that with the Opposition's period in Government, when glossy reports were produced. My predecessor produced a memorandum for Government looking for significantly increased resources which was dumped. Let us treat this issue with the importance it requires.

The provision of an adequate service for our children is the most important task we have. I will not be all things to all men on the problems we face. I picked my priorities and intend to implement them. I got £13 million extra this year, but it is not nearly enough. I have laid out my priorities. Deputies should not try to confuse them, and I will not to try to mislead Deputies. I will not promise anything I cannot deliver. I have ten brilliant staff members in the childcare section of the Department of Health and Children but they cannot do the vast amount of work I want them to do, and I cannot get agreement for additional staff. That matter notwithstanding, we are making significant progress.

This attempt to make mandatory reporting a political football is reprehensible.

The Minister of State made it a political football in the election and in his party's programme for Government. The commitment was made.

I have restated our position.

I must take a number of important steps before we reach that point. By taking those steps I am satisfied we will improve the mechanisms for reporting and, more importantly, we will improve the response of the health boards and the various agencies to those reports when they are received so that victims may report in the knowledge that there will be a satisfactory support for them and they will be given the counselling and support needed to cope with this terrible crime of child abuse. This is wider than child sexual abuse. It involves physical and mental abuse and abject neglect which, unfortunately, thousands of children suffer in this community.

A brief question Deputy McManus.

I have great sympathy for the Minister of State. He has explained the central nature of the problem. I asked him to elucidate the question of co-ordinating responsibility between Departments because this is an issue to which we keep coming back. How on earth does the Minister of State believe he will make the progress he clearly wishes to make unless he has a different relationship with the Departments?

Since I came to this Department I have had regular meetings with those in the Department of Education and Science and the Department Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We operated under the strategic management initiative and the support and involvement of the other two Departments with my Department has been significant. As a result of the legitimate criticisms of our policies in Geneva, the Taoiseach decided to officially appoint me to the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Education and Science. There is and has been great co-ordination since I was appointed to this job.

When I was first appointed to this job I found we had 63 children before the High Court where the State was trying to defend the indefensible. We were paying legal fees of £13,000 per case per day. We did not have any place to put them. A site was not even available due to the work of the last Government. I have involved all three Departments and we have got planning permission and are proceeding to build a facility for those children. The chairperson of the Eastern Health Board will be aware that we spent £1.5 million in recent years on legal fees in the High Court. There are problems and I do not have a magic wand but I assure the Deputy that I am working hard to tackle them.

The problem with child care is that it has been hived off to junior ministers over the years. The Minister of State identified a fundamental problem that there are ten staff only in the Department. What is the Minister doing about that? Why are there ten staff only and why is the budget insufficient? Solemn commitments were given to the UN committee on these priority areas and I intend to track those commitments over the lifetime of this Government. It is vital that we move beyond being aspirational about them.

I do not wish to interrupt a colleague as I am a sinner as much as anyone else on occasions by asking lengthy questions. However, each time the Deputy asks a question, she gives a five minute speech and then asks the question. On this basis, we will not move beyond Question No. 6 today. It is unfair to other Members.

I pointed that out to the House already today. On a number of occasions in the past 30 minutes I have stressed the need and obligation to ask short supplementary questions because that is all that is allowed at Question Time. There are to be no preambles or statements.

Does the Minister have a price tag and a time-scale for each of these and, if not, I will look for them the next time the Minister is in the House to answer questions?

I have a price tag and a time-scale. All parties in the House must acknowledge that if we want to look after the most neglected and abused children and those at risk, irrespective of ombudsmen or committees, we will need to spend an additional £100 million in the next three years. The Deputy, as chairman of the Eastern Health Board, will be aware that the C case highlighted the most appalling situation one could imagine. It is hardly credible that a family could live like that in this day and age. I have a price tag and a time-scale. In my efforts with the Government and those of others in the House, we must realise that we must spend money on the have nots — those at the lowest level. I have a timescale and I hope this Government will provide the money. I am satisfied the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are committed to making this a top priority.

In the context of the individual rights of children, does this extend to young adults who have the mental age of a child? I refer to the mentally handicapped young adults who were to be used as part of a medical experiment at St. Ita's Hospital, Portrane. Will the Minister give a reassurance that this will not happen again and that procedures will be reviewed?

That is a different question.

It was dealt with on the Adjournment debate last night.

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