It is proposed to take No. 5, Motion re. Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 18] and, subject to the agreement of No. 5, to take the Supplementary Estimate [Vote 18], No. 6, Supplementary Estimates [Votes 19, 20 and 21], and No. 20 Statements on EU Structural Funds. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) No. 5, Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 18] shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; subject to the agreement of No. 5, the Supplementary Estimate [Vote 18] shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (4) No. 6 [Votes 19, 20 and 21] shall be moved together, and the proceedings thereon — which shall be confined to a statement not exceeding 5 minutes by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and no other Member — shall be brought to a conclusion by one Question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; and (5) the proceedings on No. 20, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes. Private Members' Business shall be No. 60 — Motion re. Mental Handicap.
Order of Business.
There are five proposals to be put to the House; is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Supplementary Estimate [Vote 18] agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6 agreed? Agreed.
On that point, I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform into the House and thank the Taoiseach for agreeing to the format proposed last week.
Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed? Agreed.
I am aware the Estimates will be published tomorrow. In view of the growing public concern about hospital bed closures in Galway and threatened closures in Mullingar and Tulla-more, what is the Government doing to ensure people receive the medical care and operations they need? Will a Supplementary Estimate be introduced to ensure these beds will not close?
That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
It is in order to ask if a Supplementary Estimate will be introduced to prevent the closure of hospital beds. A Supplementary Estimate on Justice has been introduced.
The Chair is on its feet; the Deputy should resume her seat.
The Taoiseach may wish to indicate whether a Supplementary Estimate on Health will be contemplated this year.
The matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
With respect, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle may find that asking a question as to whether a Supplementary Estimate is anticipated or intended, irrespective of its content, is in order.
That would constitute a means of raising all matters on the Order of Business.
The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has allowed questions on Supplementary Estimates on many previous occasions. I appeal to him not to break his own ruling and to stop hiding behind the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children.
The Chair is on its feet. The Deputy should resume her seat. There are other ways in which she could raise this issue.
Any Supplementary Estimates due to be introduced between now and the end of the year will be signalled to the Opposition well in advance.
Will there be one on Health?
Following all party agreement on 21 October to a motion to amend the compellability of witnesses legislation and related Acts, I asked the Taoiseach last week about the introduction of legislation on the matter. He indicated that the Attorney General would communicate with the Committee of Public Accounts as a matter of urgency to facilitate the early introduction of the legislation with a view to having it enacted before the end of this session. Can he indicate when the legislation will be introduced?
A number of meetings have been held on this issue which has also been discussed at Cabinet. The Committee of Public Accounts has issued proposals which will entail a number of crucial stages. The Committee wants investigations to be carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General with the Committee becoming involved only when the Comptroller has completed his part of the investigation and it recommended legislative amendments to facilitate these arrangements. This matter is both novel and complex and we are trying to see how we might best proceed.
I understood the Committee wanted to investigate matters; however, it is asking that powers of investigation be given to the Comptroller and Auditor General with the Committee's involvement along the way. I support the Committee in this matter. It is appropriate that committees of these Houses investigate matters such as these; however, that is not what is being requested here. We are trying to see how these proposals can be married as the manner in which they are structured resembles an agency agreement. I am not saying it will be impossible to accede to the Committee's request but we are trying to find out how it can done legally.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Does he agree the House has already resolved in principle that these changes should be made? The changes have been proposed and accepted by the House on foot of the Committee's determination that——
It is not appropriate to debate the matter.
I am not debating it. I am merely trying to get an answer; when will we get firm, legislative proposals from the Government? With respect, it was the Taoiseach who introduced the element of debate into the nature of the legislation. I remind him that the House and, in particular, the Committee of Public Accounts, resolved that the Comptroller and Auditor General would be the most effective agent of inquiry. That was the thrust of the motion agreed in this House; the Government accepted that motion without division and committed itself to producing legislation at an early date to give it effect. It seems to me the Taoiseach is now moving away from that position. Will he clarify whether the Government is committed to the early enactment — by early, I mean before Christmas — of legislation which would give effect to the motion passed on 21 October?
I am committed to moving this matter forward if it is possible to do so. The Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, allows committees to investigate matters and gives them the powers to compel the attendance of witnesses and admission of documents. The Committee of Public Accounts sought additional powers in that regard. I welcome that; committees of these Houses should have such powers.
Members should be aware that it is the view of the Committee of Public Accounts that making such an investigation would involve a massive time commitment on the part of its Members to the detriment of their other legislative and representational duties. The Committee wishes to confer certain crucial status on the Comptroller and Auditor General and to feed in and out of the process itself. I am not sure how that can be done. I have read the reports of the Committee's legal advisers and the Attorney General's correspondence on the matter. I have also read some submissions from the Department of Finance. I am not sure at this stage how it would be possible for the Committee to feed in and out of an investigation; we must find a structure to do that. Essentially, we are being asked that a committee of the House would investigate a matter but that someone else would actually carry out the investigation with intermittent involvement from the committee. As I said it is not what I was asked in the first matter. I was asked to find a method where we can try to do this, and this is what I am doing.
Regarding the same legislation, I am concerned that the Taoiseach is giving the view that the Committee of Public Accounts has stepped aside from conducting the inquiry ——
I will allow questions on the legislation but will not allow a debate on it.
Is it not the case that the Committee of Public Accounts is not standing——
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
It is appropriate to the legislation which Deputy Quinn made a point about.
We cannot have a debate. Standing Order 26——
I am trying to make the point that the Committee of Public Accounts is not stepping aside.
The Chair is on its feet. I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat. There are other ways of doing business.
It is impossible to conduct business in the House with the way the Chair is acting. I object to it. I wish to make my point.
It is not appropriate on the Order of Business. The Chair is on its feet and I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat. I say to the Deputy that the Standing Orders are very specific. Standing Order 26 is very specific about what is allowed on the Order of Business. Deputies may ask a question about when legislation may come before the House and about what is on the Order of Business for the day. Deputies are not allowed ask detailed questions about what is contained in legislation.
I want to know if the Taoiseach can tell us when the legislation already promised in the matter of the inquiry into AIB and related financial institutions will come before the House. In answering the question does the Taoiseach understand that the Committee of Public Accounts has not stepped aside——
That is sufficient, Deputy Rabbitte.
—that it is merely using the unique offices of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which are available to it but not to any other committee of the House, to do a report——
Please, Deputy Rabbitte.
The Committee of Public Accounts will resume its inquiry on the basis of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat.
When will the legislation be brought before the Dáil?
If Deputy Rabbitte will not resume his seat I ask him to leave the House.
I accept the committee is doing a good job and has undertaken an amount of work. The proposal in the form I am receiving it is not the way forward — I thought the committee was pursuing it. However, I understand the committee's point of view that it may not have the resources or time to do things in the way it originally thought it could. I am also aware that the issue of conflict of interest arose. The answer to the question raised by the Deputy is, as soon as we can find a method, something which will hopefully happen at the meeting with the Whips this evening. The chairman of the committee, the Department of Finance, the Attorney General and the legal team for the committee have done a considerable amount of work. What we are trying to do is novel and different from what we set out to do. The House has my assurance that if we can find a legal way of doing this it will be done as quickly as possible.
Deputy Quinn was offering on the same matter. As I wish to raise a different matter I defer to the Deputy.
We have concluded discussion on that matter.
I wish to ask a very simple question.
We are not having any more discussion on that matter.
Taxpayers outside the House have a million questions about people not paying their taxes. They want to know what taxes were not paid. When will the House be able to inquire into the matter?
I ask Deputy Quinn to resume his seat. He has asked two questions and the Taoiseach has answered them.
He has not, Sir.
We cannot use the Order of Business for a debate on any particular subject.
We did not introduce debate. It was the Taoiseach who introduced debate.
I call Deputy Flanagan.
I wish to raise a different matter, notwithstanding the fact that the previous matters have not been adequately answered by the Taoiseach——
I point out to Deputy Flanagan that we have spent more time than was appropriate on the Order of Business on the last question.
That is what we are here for.
Then Members should change Standing Orders. The responsibility of the Chair is to implement Standing Orders, not the rules Members might wish to exist.
It is our Order of Business.
The Opposition would not change the Order of Business when its Members were on this side of the House. They refused to do so.
What is the current position regarding proposals to reform the intoxicating liquor code?
The heads of a Bill are being considered and will hopefully be before the Cabinet shortly.
Last week there were a number of cases of deafness compensation claims. In relation to legislation, is the Government considering establishing a tribunal? Has any greater priority been given to the promised legislation to establish a State claims agency given the important role it could play in managing these cases?
Legislation is being prepared in relation to State claims and it should be ready early next year. New heads of the Bill were prepared after consultation with the treasury agency. The submission is with the Ministers and the proposal is expected to be before the Government in mid December.
Regarding promised minimum wage legislation, when will the consultation process on the commission's report be concluded? Will the outcome of those consultations be published and when can we expect legislation to be brought before the House?
The preparatory work and discussions are continuing. They are proceeding with the draft interim report and I think it will be with the Government before Christmas.
Now that we have the report on rail safety, will the Taoiseach make available some Thursday between now and Christmas to debate it? Will he facilitate the Whips in having a debate on the matter before Christmas?
The Minister has already asked the Whips to make time available so that it can be discussed.
I wrote to the Taoiseach and asked for Government time.
(Mayo): On 28 September the Government issued the list of Bills it expected to be published from the start of the Dáil session to the end of December. What is the situation in relation to Justice legislation? Six Bills were promised. What is the situation in relation to the Illegal Immigrants Traffic and Employment Bill, the Family Law International Protection of Children Bill, the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill, the Data Protection (Amendment) Bill, the National Disability Authority Bill and the Criminal Law (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Bill? Will the Taoiseach say whether the Government intends making money available to——
Please, Deputy Higgins.
(Mayo): This is relevant to refugee legislation. Does the Government intend making money available to the Irish Refugee Council which had to close, leaving absolutely no legal assistance whatever to asylum seekers for the preparation or presentation of their cases?
Hopefully a number of Justice Bills will be ready before Christmas. It is hoped the Criminal Law (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Bill and the Data Protection (Amendment) Bill will be taken in this session. The Equal Status Bill will be taken at the beginning of the next session. The Human Rights Commission Bill will be taken in December. The Proceeds of Crime Bill will be taken this session.
On promised legislation, will the Taoiseach make a clear statement on the juvenile justice Bill which passed Second Stage here over a year and a half ago and which now seems to be frozen in time because of a row between two Government Departments? Will he give a commitment that the Bill will be taken this month by the Select Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights?
I understand the Bill is still before the committee.
It is not. It did not arrive.
It got lost in Stephen's Green.
Second Stage was passed in the House and as I understand it——
Technically the matter is before the committee.
I know that. It passed Second Stage almost 20 months ago.
It is now before the committee.
It is awaiting Government amendments.
I have answered this question several times. The Bill is before the committee. There are Government amendments which will be taken in committee. If the chairman of the committee and the Minister agree on that, the Bill can be taken and it is a matter for the Minister to bring forward the amendments. I cannot do any more about the matter.
That is not a satisfactory answer. Will the Taoiseach tell us when the Government amendments will be ready?
The Chair has no responsibility for answers given in the House.
In view of the current child care crisis being experienced by people working inside and outside the home, will the Taoiseach indicate if any health or justice legislation will be brought before the House to improve child care facilities——
That matter is not appropriate. The Deputy must ask about promised legislation.
—and ensure health boards can carry out inspections of crèches, etc. ? That was promised in the Government's manifesto but we have seen no action by the Government to improve the position regarding child care.
The Deputy is out of order. I call Deputy Connaughton.
Does the Taoiseach agree with the remarkable outburst by the Minister for Finance which insulted every farm family in the country?
That matter is not in order. There are other ways of raising it in the House.
What did the Deputy do when he was in Government?
I ask Deputy Connaughton to resume his seat. There are other ways of raising the matter in the House. I call Deputy McManus.
I want to know where the Taoiseach stands on the matter.
Deputy Connaughton, the Chair is on his feet. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. I have called Deputy McManus.
I am sure the Chair welcomes the commitment given by the Taoiseach today to inform the House of pending Supplementary Estimates which is a welcome change.
A question on promised legislation.
In view of his commitment to change the position that obtained in the past, when Supplementary Estimates were produced without warning, does the Taoiseach expect a Supplementary Estimate will be forthcoming from the Department of Health and Children to deal with the crisis in the acute hospital services?
That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. The Taoiseach dealt with that question.
With respect, he did not.
He answered the question on Supplementary Estimates. I call Deputy Finucane.
He did not answer the question I asked. It is a separate question.
The Taoiseach has already answered that question.
He did not answer my question which is separate.
I have ruled on the matter, Deputy, and I have called Deputy Finucane.
Is the Taoiseach not willing to say "yes" or "no" to the question?
The Chair will appreciate that I do not wish to be discourteous to my colleague.
The Taoiseach has no problem being discourteous.
Will the safety implications arising from the report on the Carrickatine tragedy, which has now been published, be debated in the House?
That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business. I call Deputy Joe Higgins on the Order of Business.
Will we have an opportunity to discuss the report?
It is not appropriate to ask about discussions on the Order of Business.
What platform does the Chair recommend so that the safety recommendations in this report can be discussed?
Standing Order 26 is very specific about what is allowed on the Order of Business.
It is not a sensible proposal.
(Dublin West): Will the Taoiseach elaborate on the new legislation implied by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government when he was out barking at the house price speculators? In view of the need to bite these people rather than bark at them ——
Is there legislation promised in this area?
(Dublin West): ——does the Government have any plans to curb their speculation?
Legislation was voted down.
The Minister stated last week that he would request developers and builders to operate a code of practice in this area and that if that did not happen, he would take further action.
(Dublin West): It is still happening.
To show there is a bit of humanity left in this building, and on behalf of those of us on this side of the House, I welcome the Government Chief Whip back to the House following his short illness. I was awaiting his return because I wanted to ask the Taoiseach about his appointment as chairman of the millennium committee. What input will Opposition parties have into such a committee and have any moneys been voted to it for particular millennium projects?
Is the Deputy planning to be in Opposition in the year 2000?
There are a number of questions on the Order Paper which the Minister of State will take shortly. Moneys will be voted in respect of the committee and he will endeavour to ensure the committee is as representative as possible.
Seeking the Chair's plentiful indulgence on the Order of Business, will the Taoiseach ask the Government Whip to make time available to discuss the watershed report on rail safety bravely produced by the Minister for Public Enterprise?
That question has already been answered by the Taoiseach.
Will the Taoiseach ask the Government Whip to put this matter on the agenda for a debate?
That is agreed.
Dr. Upton
Will the Taoiseach indicate when the legislation to introduce penalty points for road offences will be introduced? Can we expect it before Christmas as it may minimise the carnage on our roads?
That was one of the suggestions in the traffic report published in July. The Deputy should put down a question to the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, who is dealing with the issue.
From the response to questions raised by Deputies Quinn and Rabbitte on a resolution passed by the House on 21 October, is the House to understand that the Taoiseach——
The Deputy is out of order. I call Deputy Sheehan.
——does not propose to proceed with legislation promised?
I call Deputy Ulick Burke.
This is an important question.
What action does the Taoiseach intend to take on the statement by the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, in regard to malpractice by the——
That matter is not in order. I call Deputy Gilmore for a final question on the Order of Business.
On the promised vocational education Bill to reform the way in which vocational education committees are appointed, the vocational education committees are due to be appointed——
The Deputy wants to ask about the legislation?
Yes.
Taoiseach, promised legislation on vocational education?
I have not finished asking the question, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
There is nothing more to the question on the Order of Business, Deputy Gilmore.
There is more to it.
Why does the Chair not simply close down the House? This is getting impossible.
It is the Standing Order, Deputy Rabbitte.
It is not acceptable. The Chair will not allow elected Members of this House finish their sentences. A cogent point cannot be made since you got into the Chair.
We spent half an hour on the Order of Business, Deputy Rabbitte.
So what? That is what we are here for.
Members are here to ask specific questions.
What do you think is the reason we are elected to the House? We are getting sick of this.
Deputy Rabbitte, we must have order in the House. The Chair simply implements the Standing Orders as laid down in this House.
Did the Chair ever hear of the advantage rule?
The vocational education Bill is on the Government's list promised to be published at the end of 1999 by which time the vocational education committees, whose appointment the Bill is supposed to reform, will already have been appointed following the local elections in June of next year. Are there any plans to bring forward the publication of the Bill?
I note Deputy Gilmore's comments on bringing the Bill forward, but I am told by the Minister for Education and Science that that will not be a problem and that those difficulties will be accommodated. The heads of the Bill are being prepared in the Department and it is due for late next year as I stated. The Minister for Education and Science has said that the points raised by the Deputy can still be catered for, even if it is late.
How?
This is nonsense.