Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Feb 2000

Vol. 513 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: motion re Referral to Joint Committee of proposal to approve terms of Memorandum of Understanding for a Framework of Co-operation between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the State of Israel; motion re Referral to Joint Committee of FOI Civil Service Users' Network Report and proposal to approve draft FOI regulations; Planning and Development Bill, 1999 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed); and Statements on the White Paper “Ensuring the Future – A Strategy for Rural Development in Ireland”, to be taken not later than immediately following the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall not resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 17 and 18 shall be decided without debate and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 44: the opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael and Labour Parties shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the statement of each other Member shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; and Members may share time.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 17 and 18 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 44 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Although it is not strictly in order, I take this opportunity to wish the Taoiseach well in the task he and the British Prime Minister are undertaking today. No one under estimates the difficulty of that task. Will the Taoiseach make time available for a debate on this issue in the House next week so that the outcome of his discussions with the British Prime Minister may be considered? Given that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has indicated that the Government is not contemplating the suspension of the institutions, what then is it seeking in the event that no clear timetable for the decommissioning of weapons is vouchsafed by the paramilitary organisations? What is the Government seeking if that situation, which we hope will not occur, arises?

Mr. Quinn

On the same topic – as Deputy Bruton indicated, it is not fully in order but it complies with the convention we have established – in the likelihood that there will be fairly substantial developments by Tuesday next, will the Taoiseach make time available at the earliest opportunity on that day to discuss the Good Friday Agreement and its implementation in light of the developments which may take place? Prior to such a debate, perhaps the Taoiseach could arrange a briefing for those parties which require it.

Mr. Sargent

I also request a debate on this issue, given people's interest in it. The Green Party has been excluded from the statements on rural development which will be taken later today and I wish to ensure that we are included in the debate on Northern Ireland.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Bruton for his remarks. It will become clear during the course of the day whether progress can be made. I will make arrangements for a debate on this matter next week. Deputy Bruton can rest assured that there are not any alternatives if clarity is not achieved on the decommissioning issue. The comments of the Minister for Foreign Affairs were made on the basis that clarity and certainty would be achieved. Product is not the issue, it is a question of achieving clarity. I made it clear yesterday, in the straightest and bluntest terms possible in front of a number of witnesses, that that is what the Government and the House desire.

Mr. J. Bruton

It was for clarity that the people voted.

The Taoiseach

My officials are in Belfast at present and I will travel to meet the Prime Minister immediately following the Order of Business. If any urgent matters arise, I will arrange for the Opposition leaders to be briefed.

Mr. J. Bruton

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply and I hope we will not detain him too long in the House.

Mr. Quinn

On another matter related to the Order of Business, the Ceann Comhairle received a letter yesterday afternoon signed by the Whips of Labour and Fine Gael requesting a special meeting, at the earliest opportunity, of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Is he in a position to indicate when that meeting might take place?

The Taoiseach

A meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is due within the course of the next two weeks. I cannot give a commitment in respect of the day on which it will be held.

Mr. J. Bruton

No one can be quite sure where we will be in two weeks, given the way things are going.

Mr. Quinn

I do not wish to be disorderly but we have a crisis in the interpretation of the Order of Business in relation to another matter. It is not usual that the Ceann Comhairle should receive a letter of the kind to which I refer. With respect, we are seeking a more committed response than the one he has just given.

An Ceann Comhairle

I assure the Deputy that there will be a response in a number of days with regard to the date and time of the meeting.

Mr. Quinn

We are seeking a meeting as a matter of urgency. The issuing of a response to our request in a number of days does not indicate the sense of outrage I feel about the way we are being frustrated from asking questions about matters which are legitimately in the public domain. We have the nonsensical situation whereby individual citizens can get more information from Departments under the Freedom of Information Act than we can get as elected representatives.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have indicated that such a meeting will be held.

Mr. Quinn

Can you indicate when, Sir?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not at this stage.

Mr. Quinn

A Cheann Comhairle, I invite you and your officials to understand the sense of urgency which is our concern about this matter. We will have to consider our position as regards how we co-operate in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The meeting will be held.

Mr. Stagg

On the same issue, a Cheann Comhairle, another matter has been referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which needs the urgent attention of the committee, and not just its Chairman. This matter should be dealt with this week. Will you advise us of the date and time of the meeting today?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's request is being considered.

Mr. Stagg

It is not my request, a Cheann Comhairle, it is a request of the two main Opposition parties.

An Ceann Comhairle

I was referring to the Deputy's statement in the House.

Mr. Noonan

During the week the Taoiseach informed the House that the Finance Bill will be published on 10 February. The heads of the Bill were published last week. A number of announcements are arising from the pay talks which will have major implications for the Finance Bill and will have to be reflected in its provisions. Will the Taoiseach arrange for amended heads of the Bill to be given to Opposition parties and tax practitioners in advance of the publication of the Bill so that what happened in the past will also happen this year, and people will know the general areas of tax changes before the Bill is published?

The Taoiseach

I will inform the Minister for Finance of the Deputy's request. I am not sure that there are other heads but I will make the Minister aware of the Deputy's request.

Ms McManus

We recently saw the effects of a very serious strike where health professionals – nurses – picketed hospitals. We are still experiencing the impact of that strike. A serious situation is building up and junior hospital doctors will be balloted shortly regarding industrial action. The Labour Party published the Protection of Patients and Doctors in Training Bill, 1999, which deals with the protection of patients and junior hospital doctors. Will the Taoiseach agree to take this Bill in Government time to pre-empt and prevent the serious industrial situation which is building up in hospitals?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a question on promised legislation.

Ms McManus

We will see doctors on picket lines unless action is taken by the Taoiseach to ensure that patients are protected.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make a statement.

Ms McManus

The Minister for Health and Children is more interested in criticising doctors than ensuring they work proper hours.

Mr. R. Bruton

What is happening to the minimum wage legislation? Carers cannot be employed by the Eastern Health Board because the rate is only £3 per hour. Very expensive acute hospital beds are being taken up because basic community care services cannot be provided at that rate. Where is the minimum wage for the Department of Health and Children?

The Taoiseach

The Bill has been published and must be passed by both Houses before 1 April.

Mr. Gormley

Is the Taoiseach aware that Kerbside Recycling in Dublin is in crisis with about 40% of waste collected going to landfill sites? In spite of this, the Minister for the Envir onment and Local Government continues to tell people to recycle waste.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question.

Mr. Gormley

Does the Taoiseach agree that the EPA should have a monitoring role in recycling? In that context, will he speed up the introduction of the EPA Bill because he seems oblivious to the environmental problems we are experiencing?

The Taoiseach

The EPA Bill has nothing to do with Kerbside management.

Mr. Gormley

It should have. We need a proper EPA Bill and the Taoiseach should expand it. If he cared about the environment he would introduce a proper EPA Bill.

The Taoiseach

There is a waste management plan and I hope the Green Party will support the plan implemented by the Minister.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Will time be made available to debate the Freedom of Information Civil Service Users' Network report in the House because of the nonsensical situation where Members are refused replies to parliamentary questions but can obtain the information under the Freedom of Information Act? It is absurd that we can get information under the Freedom of Information Act but Ministers will not supply that information in the context of parliamentary questions. Will the House be given on opportunity to debate this matter so that this point can be raised?

The Taoiseach

It has been agreed that this issue will go to committee. Perhaps when the committee has completed its deliberations the matter could come back to the House.

Mr. S. Ryan

Will the Taoiseach be more precise about the publication date of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, other than the information given in the Government's programme of legislation?

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be published during this session. I cannot be more precise than that.

Mr. Naughten

When will the firearms Bill be published? Will consideration be given to changing the current legislation whereby a 16 year old can hold a legally-licensed firearm?

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be published in the middle of this year.

Mr. M. Higgins

During the last session I asked the Taoiseach if he would review the timing of legislation coming before the House. There are 18 Bills on one list of the Government's legislative programme for which heads have been approved by Government, but the texts of which are being prepared. There are 63 Bills for which heads have not been approved by Government. Will the Taoiseach consider changing the drafting monopoly of the draftsman's office to make it possible for any Government's legislative programme to be achieved in the period between elections?

The Taoiseach

The legislative committee meets every week with all relevant people to look at the stages of legislation to see if the legislation proposed for that session is moving on. There have been a number of recent debates in the House on this issue which the Deputy raised.We have started to involve more people from outside in the preparation of Bills which is speeding up the system.

Mr. Finucane

More than four months ago the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources submitted proposals to Brussels which were leaked to the Irish Farmers Journal. There is much uncertainty in the forestry industry.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not wave a document in the House.

Mr. Finucane

When is Brussels likely to approve this package?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Finucane

It is relevant, there is an industry out there.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): In light of the extremely sinister development in Austria where an extreme right wing, racist party is poised to come to power, and the fact that people seeking refuge in this country can, under the Dublin Convention, be sent into the arms of such a regime—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement. He should ask a question.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Taoiseach bring forward the immigration and residence Bill as a matter of urgency so that those seeking refuge in Ireland from political persecution are not delivered into the hands of an extremely anti-immigrant, right wing party which might come to power in Austria, with control of sensitive ministries such as justice?

The Taoiseach

Work is progressing on that Bill. It will take some time to prepare but it is due this year.

Mr. Quinn

The question of a debate in the House on the emerging social partnership agreement was raised at the Whips meeting last night. Further to my question to the Taoiseach yesterday, and in view of the fact that a new procedure is being adopted by ICTU which will consult its members prior to a ballot, is it the Government's intention to enable the House to be similarly consulted prior to a final decision in light of the many legislative commitments that would form part of that agreement? Can the Taoiseach indicate whether time will be made available in the next week or so for such a debate, assuming that the total programme is agreed by this weekend?

The Taoiseach

The talks are still going on. I am not sure when they will be completed. They are well advanced but there is not a deadline for their completion and there is no great urgency. I understand the Government Whip last night agreed there would be a debate.

Mr. Quinn

Maybe I am not expressing this very clearly.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very briefly, Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

Will that debate take place before it is voted upon by the social partners and will the Government give an undertaking, in light of the fact that there will be consultations with the only body which will vote – the workers, through their respective trade unions – that there will be a debate in this House simultaneous to the consultation process that will take place with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and its members?

The Taoiseach

Yes, but I restate that we cannot have a debate until we have something to put to the House to debate. I do not accept it is very different from any of the other agreements. Every agreement since 1987, whether Programme for National Recovery , PESP, PCW or Partnership 2000, was put to the unions for consultation – how it was put does not matter. All of them were debated by the delegated unions to congress before they were voted on and that is what will happen this time also.

Mr. Sargent

Tá ceist agam maidir le dhá Bhille ar an liosta atá geallta. Bhí an chéad cheann geallta i 1999. It was subject to the determination of the former Minister for Education and Science but it has come to naught. On the teaching council Bill, cathain a fhoilseofar é sin? Baineann an tarna cheist le Bille a bhfuil ainm fada air agus níl fhios agam cad é an Ghaeilge atá air.

The sea pollution, hazardous and noxious substances civil liability and compensation Bill is particularly relevant given the House of Commons debate on MOX fuel and the transport of MOX fuel from Sellafield through the Irish Sea. It needs to be taken quickly on that account.

Mr. Yates

Send it to Tullamore.

The Taoiseach

Both Bills will be taken in this session.

Mr. Stagg

Arising from the Ceann Comhairle's decision yesterday morning to rule issues out of order on the Order of Business, four matters allowed this morning would have been ruled out of order under that ruling. There is no consistency in the ruling of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes the Order of Business.