Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Oct 2000

Vol. 525 No. 1

Other Questions - Decentralisation Programme.

Thomas P. Broughan

Ceist:

9 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Finance the progress made with regard to the Government's proposals for the decentralisation of 10,000 civil and public servants; when it is expected that the programme of decentralisation will commence; when it is expected to be completed; the procedures that are being used to determine locations for decentralisation; the discussions that there have been with trade unions representing civil and public servants; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23458/00]

Jim O'Keeffe

Ceist:

24 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Finance if he will confirm that Bandon, County Cork, will be included in the decentralisation programme; and if a Government office of suitable size will be relocated there. [23434/00]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Ceist:

25 Caoimhghin Ó Caoláin asked the Minister for Finance if a Cabinet committee on decentralisation has been established; if so, the membership of the committee; the number of times it has met since July 2000; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19973/00]

Austin Deasy

Ceist:

49 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Finance if he will set up an independent committee consisting of high level civil servants to oversee the proposed public service decentralisation programme to eliminate any possibility of political party advantage being tolerated. [23630/00]

Mr. McCreevy

I propose taking Questions Nos. 9, 24, 25 and 49 together.

It is my intention that the Government will be in a position to take decisions in relation to a new programme of decentralisation by the end of this year. As soon as the decisions have been taken the logistical arrangements, such as staff training and the provision of suitable accommodation, will be addressed. In view of the many considerations which need to be taken into account in the implementation of the programme, not least those of the staff involved and the need to ensure that the effective and efficient delivery of public services is maintained, it is difficult to indicate with any certainty the time it will take to complete the programme.

In taking its decision the Government is anxious to take into account the views of various interests, including those of the communities to which staff will be relocating, the Departments/offices/agencies involved and, of course, the staff who will be transferring. The Government has recently asked the Secretaries General, as a group, to indicate their views and has also asked the civil and public service staff unions to advise it on the criteria they believe should be applied in making decisions on the areas to be decentralised and the criteria which should apply to the selection of locations. This recent initiative is the latest in a series of consultations which have taken place with the civil and public service staff unions. Through the general council, the unions have been kept abreast of developments since very early this year. In addition each of the unions concerned was met individually by officials of my Department and I personally met them jointly.

While I accept that Civil Service management and staff have an important role to play in the decentralisation process, the issues raised by decentralisation involve other groups and interests whose advice and aspirations will also need to be evaluated. The Cabinet Sub-Committee on Decentralisation which, apart from myself, includes the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for the Environment and Local Govern ment will, therefore, take into account management and unions' views which have been invited and these views, with the submissions and representations received from or on behalf of some 120 urban centres throughout the country, will contribute to informing the Government's ultimate decision.

With regard to the submissions received I have been careful to date, and I do not want to depart from that position, not to prejudice the decisions which have to be taken by the Government in embarking on this ambitious programme. At this stage I do not think it would be helpful for me to say any more than that I am aware of the many cases made for inclusion in the forthcoming programme and to assure Deputies that they will be taken fully into account by the Government in their consideration of the issue.

Mr. McDowell

We have a problem here. There is a real difficulty in the Minister saying he has received representations from urban district councils and from Members of the House, that he does not intend to say how he will make decisions on decentralisation and that he will not tell us the criteria for making those decisions. The least we can expect is that the criteria by which decisions will be determined should be made public. The Minister is not being asked to set up high level interdepartmental groups. He is simply being asked to tell people what will decide the issues. That is hardly unreasonable.

Mr. McCreevy

By the time the current programme of decentralisation is completed by the end of next year, part of which commenced when Deputy Noonan was in government, 14,000 civil and public servants out of a total of 31,700 civil servants and 2,500 public servants will have been relocated outside Dublin. It is my ambition to add a further 10,000 civil and public servants to that list, whereby at the end of the process 75% of civil and public servants will have been relocated outside Dublin. Various criteria will be taken into account, including suggestions made by management, the civil and public service unions and the centres to which civil and public servants may be relocated. All these matters were taken into account by previous Administrations in making final decisions. The figure of 10,000 represents the largest number of civil and public servants to be relocated in one go.

Mr. McDowell

Which factors will be taken into account?

Mr. McCreevy

Many considerations will be taken into account. I will not tie myself down by stating that little boxes will have to be filled in to ascertain whether proposed locations meet various criteria. At the end of the process more people will be displeased than pleased.

Mr. McDowell

Is it not reasonable to ask that the Minister should state the obvious, that a town should have sufficient social and transport infrastructure to sustain the body to be relocated or is the Minister afraid that when push comes to shove towns such as Cahirciveen will not measure up and he will end up breaching the criteria? Is that the problem?

Mr. McCreevy

There is probably a textbook which lists matters such as those mentioned by the Deputy, which will be taken into account. It is one of the reasons the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is a member of the Cabinet sub-committee. The Department of the Environment and Local Government will have an input in such matters, as will the Office of Public Works, for which my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen, has responsibility. It will be its responsibility to secure and fit out accommodation.

Mr. Noonan

I hope it connects the telephones on time.

Mr. Cullen

That is a matter for the Houses of the Oireachtas, the committee of which the Deputy is a member.

Mr. McCreevy

If I was to fill in all the boxes which Deputy McDowell wants me to list with the marks scored, relocations would only occur to certain centres. Nearly everybody wants to remain within a circle around Dublin, mostly my home county and County Meath, but this does not amount to decentralisation.

Cecilia Keaveney

Does the Minister agree that the programme of decentralisation to towns such as Letterkenny has worked extremely well and that, contrary to newspaper reports that civil servants supposedly do not want to move, there are many towns to which they would be quite happy to be relocated? There is a significant demand for places in towns such as Buncrana, but an insufficient number of Civil Service jobs available. The decentralisation programme, therefore, has many pluses.

Mr. McCreevy

I agree wholeheartedly with my colleague.

Mr. McDowell

Does that include the bit about Buncrana?

Mr. McCreevy

When the decentralisation programme was introduced all the difficulties mentioned were highlighted. The success of the programme in towns such as the one to which my colleague referred as well as Sligo and Letterkenny has encouraged civil servants in Dublin to relocate to other parts of the country. Even trade union leaders are surprised at the level of interest shown in the programme. Despite the official line, many civil servants wish to relocate for reasons of lifestyle and education, among others. They are aware of the advantages. Everybody has benefited, including the towns con cerned. I was informed recently by a trade union leader in the nursing profession that they are inundated with requests to relocate to other parts of the country, that nurses will not take up jobs in the Dublin region. The advantages and mistakes learned will be taken into account.

Mr. Naughten

As the Minister is aware, vacancies in the Dublin region cannot be filled while there is a huge demand for staff in other parts of the country. Does he agree, therefore, that it is vitally important that the decentralisation programme is up and running as quickly as possible to try to fill these vacancies? People want to leave Dublin within a week of their arrival because of the Government's failure to provide necessary infrastructure. While I take the Minister's point that he should not have to tick boxes, surely some criteria have been laid down. Is it the case that towns included previously in the programme will be included again or will new towns be added? Is it the case that to be included there must a Minister in a constituency?

Mr. McCreevy

The latter will not be a criterion, that there will have to be a Minister in a constituency. The Deputy referred to only one aspect of the criteria. Some of the more loftier commentators do not want the fact that a town has been included in the decentralisation programme previously to be taken as a consideration. They argue that there should be other more objective criteria. It will, however, be one of the criteria considered.

One of the points well developed at the committee meeting which Deputies Noonan and McDowell attended was that there is an advantage in having a decentralised Department in a region in terms of recruitment, promotion and career path. Travelling 20 miles from one town to another is not a big imposition whereas travelling 20 miles in and around Dublin is. For the decentralisation programme to be successful as big a group as possible should be relocated in a region so that individual civil servants would see a clear career path and would not be faced with the prospect of being an executive officer for the rest of their careers. That would not be fair. They should be able to see that if they join a particular Department, there is another section of the same Department or other Departments within a radius of ten to 25 miles. Dublin is the not the only place in Ireland. If we were starting with a green field I am sure Parliament would not be located in Dublin either. We should think about what the situation would be if an entire Department was located in some of the towns mentioned, whereby instead of heading for Dublin on a Monday morning Ministers would head for town A. I intend to introduce some lateral thinking to the subject.

Mr. McDowell

Is it likely that any part of the Department of Finance will be decentralised? It has been suggested to me that under the Public Service Management Act Secretaries-General who are responsible for the internal management of Departments would have a serious role in any decision which might be taken. What is the Minister's view of that opinion? I appreciate that he has established a committee which includes Secretaries-General, but how does he read the legal position?

Mr. McCreevy

The Deputy answered part of his question. Secretaries-General, as a group, are being consulted as part of the recent initiative. Their views will be taken into account. We must also take account of the need to make Departments work efficiently and this is one of the matters under consideration.

If this is to be successful we must bring a new mind-set to the deliberations. For example, Germany, with a population of approximately 80 million, moved its entire administration from one city to another.

Mr. McDowell

Many would prefer to go back to Bonn.

Mr. McCreevy

A decision was made and everything, including embassies, had to move. In golfing terms, Ireland is a drive and approximately a four iron to get around from one end to the other. We talk of 60 and 100 miles being big distances to travel. That is nonsensical. I have looked at maps in other parts of the world where Ireland did not feature because it is so small. We make a big issue about a few miles. We must stop thinking like that. For example, we must stop persisting with the idea that because a Department, or part of a Department, has been in Dublin for the past 70 years it must remain in Dublin.

In this decentralisation programme we will give consideration to all locations. All will have an equal chance.

Mr. Noonan

The Minister's monologues are very entertaining.

Mr. McCreevy

The Deputy's interruptions are entertaining.

Mr. Noonan

Especially when he goes into K Club mode and starts talking in terms of a drive and a four iron. Will the Minister elaborate on the notion that decentralisation might arise from decisions to cluster Departments or sections of them? Does he see a model where a Department could be located in, say, the Limerick area with sections of it placed in, say, Ennis, Shannon, Tipperary town, Nenagh or Newcastlewest? The Minister appears to favour that kind of development. Is that the case? Could he elaborate with examples from around the country?

Mr. McCreevy

I do not propose to illustrate by way of example, but decentralisation in clusters is to the forefront of my mind. I have had individual meetings with Ministers and their Secretaries General and have tried to get them to think in terms of what is being proposed here. The Deputy's analogy of his region could equally apply elsewhere. Within that region there could be sub-relocations. That would give a new impetus to people joining in terms of their career path and the services provided. I am pleased that, apart from me, at least one other Member has given thought to this aspect.

This will be an important criterion in making decisions. I hesitate to elaborate in case some may take the view that some areas will be excluded. That will not happen. If the country is considered on this basis a far different picture will emerge on what should be done.

Mr. Naughten

I am pleased the Minster has referred to clustering. It means Roscommon will probably be included given the various Departments located around it. What is the Department's position on the establishment of a proper electronic commerce and State server? This will be fundamental to any decentralisation and streamlining of Departments.

The General Registry Office is supposed to have been decentralised to Roscommon for the last ten years. When will this occur? Will the proposed decentralisation of other Departments take as long?

Mr. Belton

At my request the Minister attended a meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service when he elaborated on what he said here. That was four or five months ago, but nothing has happened. It reminds me of an advertisement from the national lottery to the effect that if people continue to participate everybody will get the same chance.

I do not believe the Government is serious about this programme. It has thrown in the towel because it could not agree on what is to be done. The Minister will not admit it, but he is as well to say it now rather than in six or 12 months when it will become more than apparent.

Mr. Flanagan

I was interested in the Minister's comments on clustering. Will he elaborate? Perhaps the most appropriate and suitable cluster outside the immediate Dublin rim would be one involving Kildare town, Portarlington and Portlaoise. I understand submissions on those lines have been received in the Department. The only difficulty with such a cluster is that a Minister is not resident in any of those towns. All the experience with the Government, and all the indications, suggest that if a town does not have a resident Minister the area does not have a chance of being considered. Will the Minister deny this and will he indicate that towns other than those with resident Ministers will be considered?

Mr. Noonan

Will the Minister indicate the extent of the reluctance of the professionals within Departments to move? What kind of nego tiations are ongoing with the professionals rather than the administrators in the Departments?

Mr. McCreevy

We have not reached the stage of negotiating with professional grades, but the Deputy is right in so far as advisers have indicated it will present difficulties. It will have to be addressed.

There are many aspects to be considered in the decentralisation programme. However, it will not be a requirement to have a Minister resident in the constituency or in a town.

Mr. Flanagan

That is a U-turn. Is the Minister happy with that?

Mr. McCreevy

When the Deputy's party was last in power it moved the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to the then Minister's constituency and the EPA to the constituency of the then Minister for the Environment. We will not go down that road.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must proceed to Question No. 10. We are way over the limit.