Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 2000

Vol. 528 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 8, the Appropriation Bill, 2000, Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 45, Financial Motions by the Minister for Finance, 2000 – motion 4, resumed; No. 46, the National Stud (Amendment) Bill, 2000, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 46a, the National Training Fund Bill, 2000, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 2 Insurance Bill, 1999, Amendments from the Seanad and No. 47, Statements on the outcome of the European Council, Nice to be taken not later than immediately following the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; (2) the Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 8 shall be taken today and shall be decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; (3) notwithstanding the order of the Dáil of Thursday, 7 December 2000, the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 45 today; the speech of the Taoiseach and of the Leader of the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case, and the arrangements established by the order of the Dáil of Thursday, 7 December 2000, shall resume thereafter and the proceedings shall be adjourned after 90 minutes; (4) the Report and Final Stages of No. 46 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development; (5) the Report and Final Stages of No. 46a shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment; (6) the proceedings on No. 2, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair; (7) the proceedings on No. 47, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 70 minutes and statements shall be confined to the following Members, who shall be called upon in the following sequence, and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the statements of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case and (ii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes. Private Members' business shall be No. 112 – motion re BSE (resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are seven proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

Mr. J. Bruton

Yes.

Mr. Quinn

On that point—

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy oppose the late sitting?

Mr. Quinn

I would like to raise a point at this stage so that I am in order, Sir. Yesterday a request was made by my party to have the opportunity to move in Private Members' time a motion to be taken without debate that would refer particular legislation to the relevant com mittee of this House. The Chair undertook to examine whether such a procedure would be acceptable. I understand it is acceptable to the Opposition party that currently possess Private Members' time and the proposal would be that we would move the motion to be taken without debate. It is a procedural motion simply to refer the legislation to the relevant committee. I wonder if you, Sir, are in a position to indicate if that is permissible.

An Ceann Comhairle

It can only be taken in normal time this week.

Mr. Quinn

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. My understanding yesterday was that the Chair felt it could be taken in Private Members' time. It is a procedural motion to be taken without debate simply to refer the legislation to the relevant committee. Is the Chair now saying – I accept your ruling of course—

An Ceann Comhairle

There is an existing sequence in place for taking Private Members' time. It can only be taken in Government time this week.

Mr. Quinn

Then I will ask the Taoiseach at the appropriate time if he will allow for that motion, motion 111, to be taken without debate and to be amended to this order.

Mr. J. Bruton

On the same subject, my understanding is that the House can make any decision it wishes as to what time any business is taken. I hope the House, through the Taoiseach, will agree to Deputy Quinn's request.

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Quinn would agree to leave this matter until tomorrow morning, I will check it during the day. If I understand him correctly he is asking that the motion be moved without debate and allow the committee to be set up. Subject to checking it, and if that is the case I will agree to it in the morning.

Mr. Quinn

That is acceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

Mr. Deasy

A Ceann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are dealing with a proposal for the late sitting. The Deputy cannot intervene at this stage.

Mr. Deasy

I just want to make a point about the late sitting.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot do so as it is not provided for in Standing Orders. Under Standing Orders, only the leaders or a rep resentative from each party can comment. Therefore, the Deputy cannot make a comment.

Mr. Deasy

May I make a point on the Order of Business?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

The Appropriation Bill concerns the expenditure of vast sums of money, not least of which is the expenditure on education concerning the payment of teachers and the maintenance of the educational system. For the House to rise until 30 January, as the Taoiseach proposes, without debating the crisis in secondary education would be a great dereliction of duty on our part. Can the Taoiseach give an assurance if he is not willing to grant a debate on either the Appropriation Bill or on the issue itself that the Minister for Education and Science will go to the proposed meeting with the ASTI with a concrete proposal to resolve this dispute? In particular will he endorse the Fine Gael proposal for the establishment of a commission on teaching where all the issues affecting the conditions of work of teachers and the improvement of the educational system for the sake of students and parents can be dealt with in a structured way rather than through the confrontation which is causing enormous anxiety to young people and their families? I declare an interest in the sense that one of my own family is directly affected by this dispute.

Mr. Quinn

Yesterday, while the Taoiseach was understandably absent, a question was put to the Minister for Education and Science to the effect that if the Government was to agree to the establishment of a commission on teaching, similar to the commission on the nursing profession, a means could be found within which, without damage to the position on either side, a formula could be arrived at that would resolve this dispute. In the context of what the Leader of the Fine Gael Party has said, has the Government made a decision on the proposal for a commission on teaching?

The Taoiseach

As Deputies Bruton and Quinn said, the Minister for Education and Science is due to meet the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland shortly. That meeting is in the process of being arranged.

Mr. J. Bruton

When?

The Taoiseach

In the next few days, as soon as it is arranged between the Minister and the leadership of the ASTI. At that meeting all the difficulties that are continuing to arise in this regard will be debated and discussed. I have already said in the House if the teachers' case is that they believe matters have changed, that there are new matters or matters that should be aired they have a process in which to do that as have other teachers, public servants and other sectors. That procedure is set out in an independent benchmarking process. I hope in the discussions with the Minister that they can take that up. Prior to the start of the dispute, the issue was that there was no certainty that anything could be achieved in the monetary sense until the summer of 2002 or later from that process. That stipulation which seemed to be the kernel of the case put forward by the teachers no longer applies since last Monday week when the Congress of Trade Unions, IBEC and the Government formally agreed a new process. The process is that the benchmarking has started and runs up to the summer 2002 and payments can date back to December next year. It also allows people to put their case comprehensively. I am at a loss to know, quite frankly, what this dispute is about when that benchmarking process is available. If there is something else we can usefully do, and the Minister can usefully explain in the deliberations he has entered into, hopefully we can resolve it. The Government will do all it can to avoid the unnecessary disruption to the only people who are really suffering, that is the children.

Mr. J. Bruton

If the Taoiseach—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a prolonged debate. Just a brief question.

Mr. J. Bruton

If the Taoiseach is at a loss to know what this dispute is about then the debate should certainly take place in this House so that he can be informed. He has displayed a total lack of urgency, understanding and sympathy for the dilemma of many parents and their children particularly those sitting the leaving certificate examination. For those reasons, I believe we should have the debate. I oppose the motion not to have a debate on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Quinn

I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that the Government's position is that it is not prepared to contemplate, at this stage, the establishment of a commission on teaching. If that is the case, likewise the Labour Party will oppose this motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing No. 8 agreed to?

Mr. J. Bruton

No.

Question put, "That the proposal for dealing with Item 8 be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.

Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gregory, Tony.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Hogan, Philip.Kenny, Enda.

McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Nl, Deputies Flanagan and Stagg

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 45 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 46 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 46a agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 47 agreed to?

Mr. J. Bruton

The Treaty of Nice is of such importance that we deserve a proper debate in the House which would allow all Members who wish to contribute to do so. The issues concerned involve Ireland's likely loss of its Commissioner and its reduction in voting strength in both the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers for no apparent gain and for a treaty that may, because of the voting structures involved, make decision making more difficult in the EU, which could prove to be to the detriment of all. In view of this does the Taoiseach agree that a much longer debate on the treaty is required than the very short statements proposed?

Mr. Sargent

It is ironic that such a short truncated debate is proposed for the Treaty of Nice given that the purpose of the treaty was to find a way of ensuring that smaller countries and minority voices had an equitable involvement with the larger partners. The proposal for this debate entails the opposite. The large parties will debate the treaty to the exclusion of other parties in the House who are not recognised as a group under Standing Orders.

I ask you, Sir, to respect the spirit the Treaty of Nice was supposed to fulfil, to give equal and fair opportunity to people to voice their opinion and have their point of view heard. That is not happening in respect of No. 47. I object to the way the debate on the Treaty of Nice is proposed and will vote against the proposal unless the Taoiseach can indicate how it is to be changed to ensure that smaller parties can become involved.

Mr. Quinn

The House has conventionally debated in the unsatisfactory manner prescribed in the order the report from a council or summit. It means a series of statements are made in the absence of a dialogue. The Minister for Foreign Affairs or his spokesperson reads from a prepared script, anticipating what might be said in advance. It is nonsensical.

There are two issues involved here. This was an intergovernmental conference as well as a normal summit. It is the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Conference – the Treaty of Nice – that needs comprehensive debate. The prerequisite of such a debate is the text of the treaty. I have not received a full text in the English language. There have been newspaper reports, but the devil is in the detail. Will the Taoiseach undertake to ensure that we have a full, free and open debate in the House on the Treaty of Nice, as distinct from a report on the summit meeting of the Council of Ministers? We cannot have that debate until a published version of the treaty is made available to all Members.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair must draw attention to the terms of Standing Order 26(2) which states that when a proposal is opposed, as in this case, the Ceann Comhairle shall permit a brief statement from a representative from each party in opposition and the Taoiseach before I put the question. Three parties in opposition are recognised under Standing Order 84, therefore, Standing Orders prevent me from giving the floor to the Deputies offering. I call on the Taoiseach—

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I want to make a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no option but to apply Standing Orders. The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I want to make a point or order regarding the ruling of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The ruling is the ruling from Standing Orders and it is being applied. The Deputy must abide by the Standing Orders. The Chair has no option or discretion but to apply these Standing Orders and I now call on the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I am looking for clarification on the Standing Orders. Previous rulings relating to when matters may be raised on the Order of Business—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not on the Order of Business, but a proposal that is clearly covered by these Standing Orders. We cannot change Standing Orders. There is a way to do that, but this is not the way. I have explained to the Deputy that we are not on the Order of Business, but on a proposal on the Order of Business. If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I want clarification.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the clarification?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The speaking arrangements in the Dáil today are reminiscent of the ways of the late and unlamented Stalinist Politburo.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not clarification. If the Deputy requires clarification, I ask him to read Standing Order 26(2).

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Only the Leaders of Fine Gael and the Labour Party —

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called the Taoiseach. If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will have no option but to take measures. The Deputy must resume his seat or I will call on him to leave the House.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): It is outrageous.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will have to name him. I call the Taoiseach.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, for clarification on a decision you have taken to disallow two questions based on this proposition before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise now.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): It does.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are on a proposal. Deputies should resume their seats and allow the business to continue. I have already asked Deputy Joe Higgins to resume his seat.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): If the Labour and Fine Gael parties had any principles of democracy they would stand up for small parties.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please leave the House? I must now move: "That Deputy Joe Higgins be suspended from the service of the House." Is this motion opposed? The Deputy must now leave the House.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I have sat down.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must leave the House.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I have sat down, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has made a ruling and the Deputy must leave the House. I call the Taoiseach.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I will not be driven out of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must leave the House. I have now called the Taoiseach.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): When can I come back?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will you, a Cheann Comhairle, clarify why you disallowed two questions in relation to—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has been suspended.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Until when?

Mr. Rabbitte

Until 2001.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is suspended now from the sitting. The Deputy must leave the House as he has been suspended.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Until when am I suspended?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not open to cross-examination. I am telling the Deputy he has been suspended. He has no right to be in the House as of now.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I refuse to leave this House. This is outrageous. I had sat down when you made that ridiculous ruling.

Sitting suspended at 11.15 a.m. and resumed at 11.20 a.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are resuming on item No. 47, the seventh proposal. I call the Taoiseach.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to ask about the procedure in relation to why there was no vote on the suspension of Deputy Higgins.

An Ceann Comhairle

The suspension was not opposed, therefore there was no vote. I call the Taoiseach.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What is the procedure in relation to a vote—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is too late; the matter is disposed of. The Deputy must resume his seat or I will ask him to leave the House. The proceedings cannot be held up any further. It is the Deputy's choice. I have called the Taoiseach.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Can the Ceann Comhairle not explain to us—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not in the business of giving explanations. The Chair has made its decision in accordance with Standing Orders. That is the end of the matter and if the Deputy persists, I will ask him to leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It was not your—

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy persists, I will ask him to leave the House. I call on the Taoiseach.

Mr. Deasy

Has the Taoiseach any intention—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach. Deputy Deasy must resume his seat. I pointed out to Deputy Deasy that once a representative of his party speaks on this issue, no other Member may speak.

Mr. Deasy

I am attempting to raise the matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

Unfortunately, under Standing Orders the Deputy cannot raise the matter. The Deputy must resume his seat or I will ask him to leave the House.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Deasy must resume his seat or leave the House.

Mr. Deasy

I will leave the House—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should leave now and allow the proceedings to continue. I call the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

In reply to questions raised, the report from Nice is the normal report which is available today. Deputy Quinn outlined the Intergovernmental Conference as well as the normal meeting. As the issue was raised several months ago, I saw what happened in relation to Amsterdam when requests were made to hold discussions in advance in the Foreign Affairs committee. Unfortunately, that did not happen but I did not take that view on this occasion. There have been a number of sessions of the Foreign Affairs committee on this issue. Following Biarritz, Deputies Quinn and Bruton asked for a pre – and post-Nice session in the Foreign Affairs committee, to which I agreed. Before Nice, there was a long and detailed pre-session. I believe Friday has been set for a post-session, but I am open to correction on that. Deputy Quinn suggested that perhaps we should also debate the issue when the full text is available in the new year, to which I agree.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is important for every Member of the House to have an opportunity to speak on the Nice Treaty. I would like a firm assurance from the Taoiseach on when we will have a debate in this House on the Nice Treaty. Will he give an assurance that a debate will take place in the first week of the new session at the end of January or the beginning of February?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Quinn made the point about the legal text. I hope there will not be a mess such as followed the Amsterdam Treaty when the legal text was not available for three and a half months. I have no problem debating the issue as soon as the legal text is available.

Mr. Quinn

I welcome what the Taoiseach has said. However, he may be factually inaccurate in relation to a report back from Amsterdam. If he will recall, there was a general election prior to the Amsterdam Intergovernmental Conference Council meeting. In fact, a new Government was in place when we returned from Amsterdam and those who attended Amsterdam were not in a position to report back. I welcome what the Taoi seach has said. I understand he is saying that at the earliest opportunity in the new year, subject to the text being available, there will be a full debate in which every Member can participate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Item 47 agreed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No, it is disagreed.

Question put, "That the proposal for dealing with Item 47 be agreed to."

Deputies

Vótáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies who are claiming a division please rise?

Deputies Gregory, Healy, Ó Caoláin and Sargent rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Members have risen, I declare the question carried. The names of the Deputies who claimed a division will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about a matter of great concern to many parents. I refer to a report published today in The Irish Times which suggests that there are not adequate facilities—

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please, the House is in session.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the safety of allowing meningitis vaccinations take place in GPs' surgeries. Is he aware of a report by Dr. Gueret which suggests that only 5% of the surgeries in the eastern region in which these meningitis vaccinations are taking place have the necessary equipment to deal with a situation where a patient has an acute reaction to the vaccine and that most surgeries lack access to oxygen and ventilation equipment and would be unable to put people who may have a reaction on drips? This is suggested to be the tip of the iceberg as far as the under-equipment of GPs' surgeries in the eastern region, and generally, is concerned. Are steps being taken in the light of this alarming report by Dr. Gueret about the safety of meningitis vaccinations, which is published in The Irish Times this morning?

The Taoiseach

Meningitis is a serious disease. I will examine the report. I have no information about it. Because of the high instance of meningitis in our society, the health board, through the substantial resources that have been made available to it in the last few years, has been trying to ensure that all GPs can provide a vaccination service. I assume the study has been done in the Eastern Regional Health Authority area. The report will have to be examined. I assume it is factual.

Mr. J. Bruton

I can give the Taoiseach a copy of the report which suggests that only 5% of GPs' surgeries are safe for the administration of these vaccinations. Dr. Gueret, who is a member of the ERHA, has called for vaccinations to be stopped. I do not endorse that call because I believe in vaccination but I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that steps are taken by the Minister for Health and Children to deal with this matter. It should not be left on the long finger.

Mr. Quinn

On Monday, 4 December, it was reported in the newspapers that the Taoiseach promised to bring forward a package of legislative measures to deal with the issue of ethics in Government and the conduct of politics. The report referred to legislation relating to lobbyists, whistleblowers and the capping of donations. I draw the Taoiseach's attention to the fact that this House passed 18 months ago, on Second Stage, legislation in relation to lobbyists. The House passed legislation in relation to donations which came into effect on 1 December and the Seanad has passed legislation in relation to lobbyists.

Given the fact that, as we saw yesterday, the Taoiseach has not met his own legislative drafting record and is seriously behind his own timetable, will he recognise that much of what he is proposing has already been drafted and, in the case of the three pieces of legislation I have mentioned, is on Committee Stage. These Bills could be appropriate vehicles for the enactment of measures prior to the next election, assuming the Taoiseach is serious about having them enacted.

The Taoiseach

With regard to the Deputy's general point about the legislative programme, 13 of the 15 Bills on the list for this session will be circulated as well as two further Bills which were not on the original list.

With regard to the specific legislation referred to, the Government is bringing forward those Bills. I have already acknowledged the input of his party and the Fine Gael Party to the legislation. Because most of this legislation affects Members of the House as well as others, I offered to bring these matters forward on an all-party basis but that offer was declined, particularly by Deputy Quinn. The Government proceeded with the legislation. It will take into account work that has been done by others or Bills that have been before the House.

In some legislative areas much work is required. Only a few countries have passed lobbyist legislation and most of those repealed it after a few years. If we are to have lobbyist legislation, which I sincerely wish to see, we must put considerable effort into drafting it. Deputy Quinn has put forward his views on whistleblower legislation. We will bring forward legislation in these areas as soon as it has been drafted. I have out lined the proposals which will be included in that legislation.

Mr. Quinn

Since we are not making sufficient progress with regard to the overall legislative programme, the House has passed the Second Stage of two pieces of legislation, the other House has passed the Second Stage of the lobbyist legislation and there is precedent for a Government having the humility to accept in principle legislation drafted on the other side of the House and amend it as it sees fit. If the House is serious about enacting this legislation within a realistic timetable before the next general election and having it in place, surely a vehicle which is already in the station and ready to travel would be more effective than proposed legislation from the Government, the heads of which have not even been drawn up? Why can the Taoiseach not accept our three Bills, bring them to the two Houses, amend them as he sees fit but get on with the business so that politics is not traduced as it is currently in Dublin Castle by a Member of this House?

The Taoiseach

I do not wish to have an argument with Deputy Quinn. However, if he had agreed to my proposition last May this legislation would have been enacted by now.

Mr. Quinn

No. The Taoiseach would not even give us the constitutional advice he had been given.

The Taoiseach

That is not how it was. We are proceeding.

Mr. Hayes

At a snail's pace.

The Taoiseach

The Electoral Bill, which includes a number of measures, was passed by the Cabinet this morning and we are working on the other legislation. Legislation must be properly thought out and comprehensive. We will accept measures in Deputy Quinn's proposals.

Mr. Quinn

They are not proposals. The Bills have passed Second Stage.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Appropriation Bill is to pass through the House without debate. Deeds of trust are required by projects which have been grant aided by the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. These grants cannot be drawn down because of the deeds of trust problem. The money is being voted today.

Will the Taoiseach accept solicitors' undertakings in place of deeds of trust? Many projects, such as that of the Oblate Fathers in Inchicore and St. Jude's in Templeogue, will not go ahead because the money cannot be drawn down.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation advises me that he is trying to find an administrative way to proceed by rais ing the limit. Talks are in progress between the Chief State Solicitor and the Attorney General to find a mechanism to allow the grants to go through.

Mr. J. Bruton

That needs to be in place before legislation is passed.

Mr. G. Mitchell

This is causing huge problems.

The Taoiseach

I know that.

Mr. Sargent

First, I declare my enthusiasm for speaking on the European Council debate and I hope there will be an opportunity to do that.

With regard to forestry legislation, is the Taoiseach aware that 1.2 million households have been sent certificates saying a tree has been planted on their behalf as part of the millennium project? However, after ten years only 35,000 families will have trees, after thinning. When will legislation be brought forward to expose the fraudulent nature of this scheme?

Mr. E. Ryan

The Deputy cannot see the wood for the trees.

Mr. Sargent

It would require a planting of 25 million trees to give every household a tree. Will the Taoiseach return to this matter?

The Taoiseach

We have all received our certificate and I congratulate the millennium committee on its work.

Mr. Allen

During the Taoiseach's unavoidable absence yesterday, I raised the question of the threat to the future of the community games. I was assured by the Minister for Education and Science that the matter had been resolved. Last evening, the organisers of the community games told me the matter has not been resolved.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter is not in order on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. Allen

A Cheann Comhairle, it is in order if the wrong information was given. The House was effectively misled, perhaps unintentionally.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment?

The Taoiseach

Yes, a Cheann Comhairle, as the Deputy suggested the House may have been misled. The Ministers involved, Deputies Woods and McDaid, discussed this issue with me today. Following meetings between the National Community Games and officials of the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation last Thursday, the Government's understanding is that Mosney will be used next year. Mosney will ultimately sell the land, but that was the outcome of last Thursday's meeting. If there is some confusion—

Mr. Allen

There is no confusion.

The Taoiseach

That was the outcome of the meeting.

Mr. Allen

May I comment on the Taoiseach's response, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will allow the Deputy a very brief comment.

Mr. Allen

The National Community Games informed me it is still in discussions with the refugees' directorate and that no final decisions have been made.

Mr. Finucane

That is true.

The Taoiseach

The directorate is involved because refugees will be on the site. The National Community Games is using the site.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Committee of Public Accounts heard evidence last week that the absence of regulation in the financial services industry is solely due to political disagreement. When will the Bill regarding a single regulator for the financial services industry be published?

From his exchanges with Deputy Quinn, am I correct in saying the Taoiseach is suggesting the whistleblowers Bill, which his Government accepted in good faith in this House, will not proceed to Committee Stage but will have some of its elements rolled into a multi-purpose Bill which we will see at some stage in the next year?

The Taoiseach

The whistleblowers Bill will be separate legislation. It will not be rolled into a Bill, there will be a new Bill. As regards the single regulatory authority, we made provision a few weeks ago that both sides of this argument would be put forward at one of the committees. Deputy Rabbitte was involved in those discussions and we are endeavouring to finalise the matter as quickly as possible.

The Deputy will be aware there are deeply held views on both sides of this debate. This is not a political argument but one about how to find the most desirable way of implementing a regulatory authority. The debate involves taking account of the successful regulatory role carried out by the Central Bank on the one hand, and the desirability of such an authority having a stronger consumer role and voice. Those are the conflicting arguments and we are endeavouring to finalise the issue as quickly as we can.

Mr. Rabbitte

May I make a brief comment, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

Time is getting on and we cannot have a prolonged discussion.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach is correct to state that the arguments are complex and weighty. However, it is also the case that there is disagreement between the two Ministers, one of whom must sponsor legislation, and a very important industry is awaiting certainty.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement.

Mr. Rabbitte

This legislation is being held up solely by difficulties between the two Ministers.

Mr. Quinn

The situation is outrageous.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Higgins and ask him to be brief as a number of his colleagues wish to ask questions.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): The Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill is listed at No. 143 on the Government's list of promised legislation. This is important legislation from the point of view of facilitating the booming telecommunications industry. Will the Taoiseach confirm whether a decision has been made to abandon, withdraw or redraft the Bill? The word in the e-commerce world is that the Bill will not proceed.

The Taoiseach

The legislation was awaiting Second Stage in the Seanad. There is a proposal to merge the Bill with other legislation.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): With what legislation will the Bill be merged?

The Taoiseach

It will be merged with the telecommunications Bill. The telecommunications regulation Bill and the communications regulation Bill will be brought together. Work will conclude early in the new year and, I hope, legislation will be brought forward.

Mr. Stagg

No. 47 on the Order of Business, which we have agreed, allows 20 minutes for the main parties, including the Labour Party. However, it does not refer, as is normal, to the possibility of sharing time. Deputy Quinn would like to share time with Deputy Sargent, giving him five minutes, if that is agreeable to the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sharing time is a matter for Members.

Mr. Sargent

I appreciate that, a Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Naughten

The Government published its road safety strategy two years ago. Since then 1,000 people have been killed on our roads. Last month the Minister launched a £500,000 road safety advertising campaign.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement.

Mr. Naughten

The Taoiseach gave a commitment in the House that the road safety Bill would be published before Christmas. Yesterday the Minister for Education and Science informed us the legislation will not be published until the new year. Will the Taoiseach clarify the situation and the reason for the delay? This Bill is two years overdue. When will it be published and when will the measures be enacted?

The Taoiseach

The Bill was to be ready by Christmas but the officials concerned were involved in another obvious issue for the past three or four weeks. It looks as if the Bill will be published shortly after Christmas.

Mr. Flanagan

A Cheann Comhairle, if I may direct a matter towards yourself. One of the reasons the Order of Business was so lengthy and protracted was that there were a number of votes. I wish to refer to the withdrawal of Deputy Deasy concerning matters arising under Standing Order 26(3). I put it to you, a Cheann Comhairle, that there has been a change in that Standing Order which has given rise to confusion among Deputies. I ask you to prepare a written note on the matter or perhaps make a statement on the Order of Business tomorrow. Deputies are somewhat confused about this issue and some of that confusion arises from an inconsistency on the part of the Chair which, if addressed, would benefit all Members.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Crawford

This House will close for business on Friday, but many farm families may close for good. Is legislation necessary to provide funds to rectify the disastrous decisions taken in Brussels—

An Ceann Comhairle

A question on whether legislation is necessary is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Crawford

A Cheann Comhairle, it is necessary for farm families.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Naughten

It is an important issue as farmers' livelihoods are at stake.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business is concluded.