Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Feb 2001

Vol. 529 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 21, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 22, motion re referral to the Joint Committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a proposal under the Fourth Protocol to the Treaty of Amsterdam (Procedures for granting and withdrawing of refugee status); No. 23, motion re Maternity Protection Act, 1994 (Extension of Periods of Leave) Order, 2001; No. 24, motion re Adoptive Leave Act, 1995 (Extension of Periods of Leave) Order 2001; No. 48, Aviation Regulation Bill, 2000 [Seanad], Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 5, Carer's Leave Bill, 2000, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) No. 21 shall be decided without debate; (2) proceedings on No. 22, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes and shall be confined to a speech not exceeding ten minutes in each case by a Minister or Minister of State, and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael and Labour Parties, who shall be called upon in that order; (3) Nos. 23 and 24 shall be moved and debated together and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael and Labour Parties shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes; and (iii) Members may share time; (4) Private Members' business shall be No. 108, Motion re Code of Conduct for Members of Dáil Éireann.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 21 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 22 agreed?

Mrs. Owen

I understand the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should have brought this motion to the House three months ago but failed to do so. Hence, the Government is now trying to rush it through the House. We have reluctantly agreed to it being taken today, but it is a disgrace that other Members of this House who are not on the committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights will not have an opportunity to prosecute the Government on its disastrous policy with regard to asylum seekers and refugees and that only speakers from the three main parties will be able to speak. I would like an explanation from the Taoiseach on why it is being rushed in at this stage, forcing the House to agree reluctantly to put it through. Could we have an explanation of what happened in regard to this proposal which should have been passed about three months ago?

The Taoiseach

Normally a motion such as this would be referred to a committee without debate. Time has been allocated so that Members can make their points, after which it can be debated at the committee. I am not aware of any delay. However, the point can be made during the debate.

Mrs. Owen

There has been a delay. Our information is that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform neglected it and hence must now put it through by 12 February. That is not the way to do business. I will rise again on the next matter. We are reluctantly agreeing to No. 22 in its current format, but it is not something we on this side of the House will give in to on every occasion.

Mr. Sargent

I appreciate Deputy Owen's consideration of the rights of smaller parties.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have speeches now.

Mr. Sargent

I would ask the Taoiseach to take on board the point she has made.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 22 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 23 and 24 agreed?

Mrs. Owen

These are being reluctantly agreed to. Why, if this extension of maternity leave was announced in the budget—

An Ceann Comhairle

There is provision under Standing Orders for a short statement if a motion is being opposed. The Deputy has clearly indicated that she is not opposing the motion. Therefore, there is no right to make a statement.

Mrs. Owen

I am objecting to the manner in which the Government has ordered business, given that this is something which was announced in the budget in December and it is only now being brought to the House. I welcome the fact that the Government has at last worked out how to carry out the budget promise.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

The Taoiseach

On a point of order, the Deputy has misunderstood. It was stated in the budget that this would be brought in on 4 April. The aim of this motion is to fast track it so that it can be brought in earlier.

Deputy S. Ryan rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have—

Mr. S. Ryan

In the context of No. 23—

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a question of whether or not the proposals are agreed.

Mr. Flanagan

There is such a thing as qualified support.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no recognition of qualified support in Standing Orders. I must put the question. The matter will be debated. It is the arrangements that are being decided upon now.

Mr. S. Ryan

On a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the point of order?

Mr. S. Ryan

I raised this with the Taoiseach the week before last. Is the Taoiseach prepared, in the context of the debate which will take place in the next half hour or so, to amend the order if a strong enough case is put forward?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. S. Ryan

It is.

Mr. Quinn

It affects the amount of time we are going to give to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 23 and 24 agreed? Agreed. I will now take Leaders questions.

Mrs. Owen

In view of the chaos in waste management and the difficulties we have witnessed in Galway, what is the Government's position with regard to announcements made by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, who has not taken any action? Is legislation to implement what the Minister publicly announced needed? We got a confused message in this House and a further confused message from the Minister. Does the Minister intend to bring in amending legislation with regard to waste management plans? His statements are causing huge confusion and chaos in all the county councils throughout the country. Could we have some clarity on this matter?

Mr. Quinn

Is the proposal of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, connected to his proposal to have directly elected chairs of county councils and mayors of major urban cities?

The Taoiseach

On the question of legislation, discussions are ongoing. On the issue of waste management planning generally—

Mrs. Owen

Is legislation needed?

The Taoiseach

I will answer that. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government has considered all the options for bringing the process to an early and satisfactory conclusion. He will make a statement on the matter at the appropriate time.

Mr. Quinn

On a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption. I will call the Deputy.

The Taoiseach

Let me finish first, a Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Quinn

If the Taoiseach is reading from a script it is normal courtesy for the information to be circulated to the House.

The Taoiseach

I am not reading from a prepared script. I am speaking from a note from the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. There is no point in asking a question if the answer is not listened to. I take the opportunity at this stage to make it clear that any legislative changes that might be introduced would not specify any particular waste management instruments. The purpose would be to ensure the adoption throughout the country of regional waste management plans which would adopt an integrated approach to waste management, respecting the widely accepted waste hierarchy. That is that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government stated.

Mrs. Owen

This is causing confusion. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government indicated that he was of a mind to restore to county managers the power to implement waste management plans. Does that or does it not require legislation in this House, given that at the moment that function is a reserved function of the county councillors? We need clarity. One minute the Minister implies that he is will bring in legislation and restore power to managers and the next, the Taoiseach says it is being examined and that he has not a clue.

The Taoiseach

I did not say that.

Mrs. Owen

I interpreted that to be what the Taoiseach said.

The Taoiseach

I said the Minister has completed his examination of all the options and will make a statement on that matter at the appropriate time.

Mr. Connaughton

As he always does.

Mr. Quinn

On a separate matter relating to the same Minister, when does the Taoiseach intend to require the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, to divest himself of his conflict of interest where he is simultaneously responsible as treasurer—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have repetition.

Mr. Howlin

It is bad enough that the Chair is trying to corral us.

An Ceann Comhairle

These are Leaders' questions on topical matters.

Mr. Quinn

Can the Chair now determine what a Leader shall ask?

An Ceann Comhairle

I stated from day one that they must be topical questions. The Deputy should cease trying to amend Standing Orders.

Mr. Quinn

I wrote to the Taoiseach on 4 January in response to an article he wrote on 4 December in The Irish Times on standards in public office and the obligation of politicians of all parties to maintain such standards. I brought to his attention the fact that there is a clear conflict of interest—

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but the Deputy raised that matter on three occasions last week.

Mr. Rabbitte

We might as well be on line. We might as well communicate with the Chair from home by way of a word processor.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a ruling of the Chair in regard to Leaders' questions on topical matters.

Mr. Quinn

I wrote to the Taoiseach drawing his attention the fact that there is a conflict of interest within the Fianna Fáil Party in the Cabinet whereby a Minister is responsible for increasing by 50%, from £2 million to £3 million, what Fianna Fáil can spend in the next election and he also has responsibility as treasurer of the same organisation.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has a brief question, he may put it.

Mr. Quinn

My question to the Taoiseach, which I would have completed if I had not been interrupted, is – when does he intend to reply to my letter of 4 January?

A Deputy

He is too embarrassed.

The Taoiseach

I am not embarrassed. I will reply to the Deputy's letter. I remind the Deputy that in a Bill – for which I am sure there is collective responsibility – passed in the early months of 1997, limits were specified, but those limits were never implemented and there was no limits on expenditure in 1997. That is correct.

Mr. Howlin

There were five by-elections since. Why does the Taoiseach wish to change the position now, when he fought tooth and nail for that?

The Taoiseach

Let me finish.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Under the revised limits that will be introduced by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey – they will not be decided by the Minister but by the House – the expenditure that could possibly by spent by all the political parties would represent an enormous reduction on the 1997 position. In some cases it will be by not more than half. I ask Members to recall that.

Mr. Stagg

In terms of the reduction for the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Taoiseach without interruption.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Stagg knows, it could not be even be kept below the figures in the two by-elections.

Mr. Howlin

That is a load of rubbish.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. S. Ryan

On a point of order—

Dr. Woods

That is the factual position.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the point of order?

Mr. S. Ryan

When the Taoiseach is making selective references, will he also refer—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. S. Ryan

—to the activities of his own director of elections in Dublin North when the election posters were printed before the date of the commencement of the election.

Mrs. Owen

At a cost of £600,000.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly and he should resume his seat.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Taoiseach should be accurate.

The Taoiseach

I will answer Deputy Quinn's letter, but I do not understand the accusation made against my colleague that there is a difference in terms of the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, being Minister for the Environment and also treasurer of the party and Deputy Quinn's position when he was in charge of the coffers of the State and Deputy Leader of his party. I do not see anything wrong with either.

Mr. Quinn

I was not at any stage treasurer of my party.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Leader, he was far more powerful.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach should reread his admonition to the nation at large published on 4 December when he asked every Member of this House to maintain standards in politics and talked abut what is required of all of us. How can he reconcile that with the joint treasurer of his party being the Minister responsible for secretly instructing increases as far back as February last when his colleague the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in his capacity as Chairman of the Parliamentary Party was brought into the charade—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly. He should resume his seat. We will move on to the Order of Business proper. I call Deputy Owen.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach should ask the Minister to remove himself from his position or from the position he holds in the party.

Mrs. Owen

A Bill that was expected to be published at the start of this session appears to be already in place – the Criminal Justice (Temporary Release of Prisoners) Bill. Given that in the past two weeks, two prisoners took temporary release when in the care of prison officers, what will the Government do to ensure the security of prisoners when they are being transported from one place to another? I have no doubt that if the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, was on this side of the House he would already be shouting from these benches and calling for the ditches of Kerry to be scoured for the prisoners and for whoever was responsible for their escape. Two dangerous prisoners who have escaped within one week seem to be pre-empting that Bill by taking their own temporary release. The position is a shambles.

Mr. Shatter

The only prisoner the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has is Deputy Healy-Rae.

The Taoiseach

The heads of that Bill were approved on 21 November and it is due to be ready this session.

Mr. Howlin

On promised legislation, the Immigration Bill, will the Taoiseach indicate when the Government will set out a clear policy on immigration in light of a news programme, "Newsnight", broadcast in the United Kingdom last night where views, purported to be the views of this House, were enunciated by Deputy Healy-Rae? I am sure most of us would have been embarrassed at the unchristian and closed attitude portrayed that was not disowned by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

Statements are not in order.

Mr. Howlin

It is time we had a statement on rational immigration policy.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. Howlin

I ask once again when the Government will produce legislation and policy on immigration rather than the draconian measures that are the only response we received to this issue for the past two and a half years.

The Taoiseach

I cannot accept there is any draconian legislation in this area. The Government has been enormously helpful and co-operative—

Mr. Stagg

Tell that to the Moldovans.

The Taoiseach

There are two further Bills, the immigration liability Bill and the immigration residents Bill, which are due to be ready during the year.

Ms O. Mitchell

On legislation promised by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, over the Christmas period, to regulate the road opening activities of telecom and cabling companies, how quickly can that be brought before the House. I am sure the Taoiseach is aware there is more or less open war on the streets between the various telecom and cabling companies to get in ahead of their competitors. As most of the cabling will be done by the end of next year, if we delay the introduction of this legislation, it will be largely irrelevant. I am sure the Taoiseach is aware of the urgency to do something because of the impact that work is having on our streets.

The Taoiseach

A Bill and an order with CIE are being examined. The legislation promised by the Minister of the Environment and Local Government referred to by the Deputy is to co-ordinate and ensure that any of the agencies or private utility companies involved must have the permission of the Minister for the Environment or at the least of the committee that will co-ordinate the activities. That legislation is being prepared urgently. It will be a short Bill. It was not on the original list.

Mr. Sargent

Will the Taoiseach indicate if , as widely reported, the Waste Management (Amendment) Bill, is a legislative vehicle to give the Minister for the Environment and Local Government more powers over local authorities? Will the Taoiseach comment on that, as that is the widespread report?

An Ceann Comhairle

Comments on the contents of a Bill are not in order.

Mr. Sargent

I want to find out when the Bill is to be produced and I also want to find out if the Taoiseach will consider the cross-departmental committee on waste, given that it affects so many Departments, such as the Departments of Finance, Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Environment and Local Government.

Legislation is required to establish the International Criminal Court and last Thursday the Tánaiste said it was intended to have a referendum on that matter in May and on other mat ters. Is she referring to the Nice treaty when she says "other matters"?

An Ceann Comhairle

We have already discussed the Nice treaty.

Mr. Sargent

Can the Taoiseach clarify the Tánaiste's remarks?

The Taoiseach

The heads of the Waste Management (Amendment) Bill have been prepared in the Department and the Bill will be due by summer. That is the intention. I answered questions on the other matter earlier.

Mr. Coveney

In light of the continuing increase in substance abuse and addiction, when are we likely to see the national drugs strategy review published? Will legislation be required to implement its recommendations?

The Taoiseach

The review is due and as far as I know there is no legislation relative to that.

Ms O'Sullivan

When the Government took office it promised people with disabilities that it would introduce a Bill guaranteeing them certain rights. That Bill is now promised for the end of 2001 despite the fact that it has been on the Government's programme since the very beginning. Has the Taoiseach given up on his commitment to people with disabilities? Even with his timescale for the next election I cannot see this Bill being passed during the lifetime of this Government. Has the Taoiseach led people with disabilities up the garden path or will he introduce legislation guaranteeing rights for those with disabilities? Is there any urgency on this matter?

The Taoiseach

No Government since the foundation of the State has done as much on this.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Howlin

Untrue.

Mr. Martin

It is true in funding.

The Taoiseach

I assure Deputy O'Sullivan that work is progressing on the Bill. As I have said on numerous occasions, work did not begin on that Bill until other legislative measures were taken and the National Disability Authority was set up.

Ms O'Sullivan

A year ago.

The Taoiseach

The heads of the Bill are expected in the next few months and I hope the Bill will be passed this year.

Ms O'Sullivan

It was a year ago. There is no sense of urgency about this.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will legislation be brought forward in this session to amend the Refugee Act, 1996, so as to remove the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's veto of the publication of the names of people seeking asylum?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this promised legislation?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): This is to favour a provision where only the informed consent of an asylum seeker is needed. In view of the fact that many of those seeking our shelter and support often have stories of horror and persecution to tell, this is a very important issue. The press can then name people without consulting the Minister if the consent of those people is given—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not make a statement. A brief question.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Irish Examiner today stated that—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot quote.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I want the Taoiseach to confirm if such legislation is coming forward as promised in The Irish Examiner today.

The Taoiseach

There is promised legislation. This was in the original Refugee Act and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, in line with practice in other EU member states, intends to amend section 19(2) at the earliest opportunity. Following that amendment it would still be necessary for a publisher or broadcaster to obtain the informed consent of an asylum seeker before revealing his or her identity. It will be a protection for the asylum seeker but the amendment will be brought in as soon as the Minister has the opportunity to enact it.

Mr. Gilmore

When replying to Deputy Quinn the Taoiseach said that the election spending limits—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss this matter further. This is the Order of Business.

Mr. Gilmore

Yes, it is a reply the Taoiseach gave on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have passed that. It came under Leaders' questions.

Mr. Gilmore

This is legislation which is before the Oireachtas.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. He should ask a particular question about legislation, just legislation and nothing else.

Mr. Gilmore

Yes, I am asking about the electoral Bill which has been published. I am asking the Taoiseach if his reply, that the spending limits will be a matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

That refers to the contents of the Bill. The Deputy cannot come in on a question raised by a party leader.

Mr. Howlin

Why?

Mr. Gilmore

I am asking a question—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can ask about the timing. This is the Order of Business.

Mr. Gilmore

Then I am asking my own question and I will forget about the leader.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the timing and when it will be introduced.

Mr. Gilmore

My question is this: does the Taoiseach intend to introduce Government amendments to reduce the limits which are—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order on the Order of Business. The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Gilmore

I have questions on other legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask questions on that legislation.

Mr. Gilmore

May I ask—

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, am I right in assuming that there are no Standing Orders in existence regarding Leaders' issues, as the Chair described them.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have made it quite clear it is a ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Stagg

The Chair is introducing that ruling himself—

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, that is a ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Stagg

—without requests from anybody on any side of the House. The Chair is making new rules and preventing Deputies who are in order from raising questions about legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly. I will conclude now on the Order of Business and we will proceed to item No. 21, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions.

(Interruptions.)