Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Oct 2001

Vol. 542 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business today shall be No. 53, Ordnance Survey Ireland Bill, 2001 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed); No. 53a on a Supplementary Order Paper, Statements on the current situation in Aer Lingus (to be taken at 12.30 p.m. and to conclude after one hour and the order shall resume thereafter); No. 54, Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Bill, 2000 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; and No. 55, Heritage Fund Bill, 2001 – Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the proceedings on No. 53a, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after one hour and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening statements of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case and Members may share time; (ii) following the statements, the Minister for Public Enterprise shall take questions for a period not exceeding 30 minutes; and (2) Question Time tomorrow shall be taken at 3.30 p.m. until 4.45 p.m. and in the event of a Private Notice Question being allowed, it shall be taken at 4.15 p.m., and the order shall not resume thereafter.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 117, motion re co-ordination of services to western counties (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for taking statements on the current situation in Aer Lingus agreed?

Mr. Sargent

It is not agreed, a Cheann Comhairle. It is a matter that applies to every Member of this House. As Leader of my party and a Member for the Dublin North constituency, I feel very strongly about this issue. I ask the Chair to ensure that all parties and groups in this House can make statements on the matter. It is a basic suggestion, one that should not disrupt the order of the House. I ask the Ceann Comhairle to facilitate that. I am not in a position to accept the Order of Business until that is made clear.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the House to decide, not the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Sargent

I ask the Ceann Comhairle to put a motion before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for the House to decide. There is a proposal before the House on that matter.

Mr. Sargent

I am making an appeal.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed to?

Mr. Sargent

No.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Government change the proposal?

The Tánaiste rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for taking statements on the current situation in Aer Lingus agreed to?

Mr. Gormley

The Tánaiste wants to speak.

Mrs. Owen

The Tánaiste wants to help.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Tánaiste wish to comment?

The Tánaiste

What I said earlier was in accordance with Standing Orders, but the Government will facilitate Deputy Sargent and others in sharing time and asking questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed to?

Mr. Sargent

We need more clarification. Sharing time is a vague notion. We do not know whose time is involved.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the following question: "That the proposal for taking statements on the current situation in Aer Lingus be agreed to".

Mr. Sargent

It will not take long.

Question put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal in relation to the taking of Question Time tomorrow agreed to? Agreed. We will now take leaders' questions.

Mr. Noonan

Good morning, Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

Good morning.

Mrs. Owen

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

Ms O. Mitchell

The Tánaiste should be on her guard.

Mr. Quinn

The Tánaiste was supposed to say "good morning teacher".

Mr. Belton

It means she is still there.

Mr. Noonan

No doubt the Tánaiste as the leading woman Minister is aware of the crisis in the health services in Dublin, particularly in the maternity hospitals. The crisis is such that Dublin mothers can no longer reasonably expect to have their babies in Dublin maternity hospitals due to the shortage of midwives. Does the Tánaiste find this situation acceptable in the Government's fifth year in office? What are her views on the medical, legal and clinical implications of the fact that 110 midwife posts remain vacant in Dublin? Has the Government considered introducing a Dublin weighting to alleviate this problem and fill the vacancies?

Mr. Quinn

In addition to the question put by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, will the Tánaiste, on behalf of the Government, indicate when the much heralded strategy on health will be published? The Taoiseach indicated around Easter that it would be published early in the summer. The Minister for Health and Children has announced it on a number of occasions. Has a draft been presented to the Cabinet and does it contain estimates regarding the additional funds necessary to resolve the crisis to which the Leader of the Fine Gael Party referred? When will the health strategy be published with those details?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Which one of the leaked drafts is correct?

Mr. Belton

World class.

Mr. Stagg

Gazumped.

Mr. Belton

There have been four and a half years of misrule.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Leader of the Fine Gael Party for his warm greeting this morning. I am aware of the difficulties in relation to the recruitment of midwives for the three Dublin maternity hospitals. The Minister for Health and Children has established a forum with a view to resolving the issue.

Mrs. Owen

That is great. Tell that to Dublin mothers.

Mr. Belton

After four and a half years?

Mr. Stagg

It is similar to the other forum.

Mr. Belton

The Government should make sure it has a few spin doctors.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. Allow the Tánaiste to reply.

The Tánaiste

As the Deputies know, one of the reasons the Government introduced a working visa arrangement for nurses was the shortage of and difficulties in recruiting nurses, particularly in the Dublin area.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Minister does not have enough people to fill the posts.

The Tánaiste

Almost 1,000 foreign nurses are currently working in Ireland, many of them in the Dublin area.

Mr. Belton

The Government would not pay student nurses. They had to march outside the gates of Leinster House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

The net number of vacancies is 54 and the Government has enhanced the pay of midwives. We hope it will be possible to resolve the recruitment difficulties very soon. The health strategy is being finalised and will come before the Cabinet in the next few weeks.

Mr. Noonan

I cannot understand the Government's complacency in its fifth year in office when the health services are in such chaos. Young Dublin women, who have been driven out of the city to far-flung midland towns by the Government's failed housing policy, will not now be allowed to have their babies in Dublin hospitals. The Government is threatening young mothers who are resident in Dublin that they may have to move to hospitals in the midlands that are already full to have their babies.

Mr. Belton

Some 75 spin doctors.

Mr. Noonan

Is there any level to which the Government will not go before its complacency is fractured? Does the Government realise that some Third World countries can readily facilitate expectant mothers with maternity services near their homes? The Government is continuing its bland rigmarole in its fifth year in office that it is holding a forum where the matter will be discussed.

Mrs. Owen

Another committee.

Mr. Noonan

It will establish another committee and people should wait for its strategy. Does the Government have any notion of what is happening in normal life in urban and rural areas at present? Can the Government give any type of adequate response to the crisis in the health service?

Mr. Belton

There are 75 spin doctors.

The Tánaiste

I do not accept there is a crisis. The Government has more than doubled expenditure on the health services.

Mr. Howlin

Crisis? What crisis?

The Tánaiste

I agree there are difficulties.

Mrs. Owen

Women must leave hospitals within 24 hours of having their babies.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

There are difficulties and pressure points.

Mr. Shatter

The crisis in maternity services is unprecedented. It has not happened since the foundation of the State.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Tánaiste to reply.

The Tánaiste

Some 1,700 extra nurses are working in the health services and the training of nurses is up 50%.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Thirty thousand nurses—

Mr. M. Smith

Do Members want to hear it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

All is not well. There are problems and difficulties, but things are much better than they were.

Mr. Belton

There are 75 spin doctors.

Mr. Quinn

I am glad the Tánaiste is present this morning. In light of the Government's decision to bring forward a referendum to reverse the Supreme Court decision in the X case, which was to enable a young raped girl, who was under 14 years of age and suicidal, to avail of an abortion, when did the Tánaiste and her party change their stated position? Will the Tánaiste tell the House and the women of Ireland why she changed her position?

Mr. Noonan

Will the Tánaiste clarify the position of her party? She is reported in the newspapers as having agreed to the Bill before the House, but not a date for the referendum. She is also reported in the newspapers as saying that her party will have a free vote at some point during the process in the House. The indications are that the instruction to her party's Whip is that the debate will be open ended and that Second Stage will drift on until the spring. What is the position?

The Tánaiste

Regarding Deputy Quinn's point, the reason I was absent last week is that I was attending the funeral of a 27 year old public servant from my Department. That is why I was not present last Thursday morning.

In relation to the abortion issue, it is important that it does not become a party political issue and that there is no repeat of the divisiveness—

Mrs. Owen

Tell that to the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and the Attorney General, Michael McDowell.

Mr. M. Smith

Members should be serious.

Mr. Farrelly

Des has been bought off. His daughter got a job.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

It should not become a bitter and divisive issue as it was in the past. I look forward to hearing the views of the Fine Gael Party on the matter.

Ms O. Mitchell

What is the Government's view on it?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Perhaps the Tánaiste could send me the documents today.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste without interruption.

The Tánaiste

The Government has decided to put forward legislation that will be put to the people in a referendum. If this legislation is adopted by the people, it can only be changed in a subsequent referendum. The Government has not decided when that referendum will take place because, clearly, it would not be wise to proceed down the road of a referendum if we cannot build consensus, particularly among those in the middle, around this proposal.

Ms O. Mitchell

That is different.

The Tánaiste

The fact is that the Government has not set a date for the referendum.

Mr. G. Mitchell

So there may not be a referendum?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. Noonan

What is the timetable?

Mr. Shatter

Is this a Fianna Fáil or a Government proposal?

Mr. N. Ahern

It is leaders' questions.

Mr. Quinn

Many people in the House have admired the Tánaiste over many years for her courage and forthrightness inside and outside the House. When did her party change its stated position on the issue of the X case and why?

The Tánaiste

I will not take lectures from Deputy Quinn or anyone else on this issue.

Mr. Farrelly

Answer the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption.

The Tánaiste

The Government spent four years examining this matter.

Mr. Stagg

Answer the question.

The Tánaiste

I will answer the question. If the Deputy is serious and wants the question answered, I will answer it. When the Medical Council adopted its guidelines recently, the Government felt it was then practical and workable to proceed to enacting in legislation the practice that exists in Ireland. There is no ideal solution to this issue, as the Labour Party is aware. The proposals put forward protect women whose lives are at risk during pregnancy. For the first time, it puts on a statutory basis the procedures that are currently carried out on a non-statutory basis. That is a major step forward for women in Ireland, particularly for expectant mothers.

Mr. M. Smith

What is the Labour Party's policy?

Mr. Quinn

The Tánaiste cannot seriously believe that.

Mr. Howlin

Reverse the X case judgment.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes leaders' questions. We now take relevant questions on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Rabbitte.

The Tánaiste

What does the Labour Party want?

Mr. Howlin

Legislate for the X case.

Mr. Quinn

That was promised on 21 October 1992.

Mr. McGuinness

The Labour Party should decide its policy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. The Tánaiste should not respond to interruptions.

Mr. Belton

The Tánaiste is being very disruptive.

Mr. Rabbitte

When will the Campus Ireland Stadium Bill be brought before the House? Will it have the support of the Progressive Democrats Party?

An Ceann Comhairle

The first question is relevant while the second is not.

The Tánaiste

As the Deputy will be aware, a firm of consultants, HPR, was recently appointed by the Government to examine the financial costings for this proposal.

Mr. Allen

It already reported.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

I understand it will report to the steering committee later this week and, no doubt, that report will come before the committee.

Mr. Allen

It has been in all the newspapers.

Mr. Farrelly

Does the Government intend to introduce legislation to allow investors back into the housing market?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there promised legislation?

Mr. Farrelly

Rental subsidies have increased since the Government took up office from £73 million to £135 million this year.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement. Unless the question relates to promised legislation, it is not relevant.

Mr. Farrelly

Is that not an indictment of the Government—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can table a parliamentary question.

Mr. Gormley

I refer to the control of road openings Bill. Does the Tánaiste agree the situation in Dublin city in regard to road openings is out of control and there needs to be greater co-ordination between local authorities and telecommunications companies? Will she ensure the Bill is introduced before the Government departs the scene?

The Tánaiste

The Bill will be introduced before the next election.

Mr. Flanagan

With regard to legislation on public service reform, will the Tánaiste confirm that there are 75 full-time press officers aiding and assisting Ministers and Ministers of State?

Mr. Belton

All telling the truth.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. M. Higgins

Yesterday when the Minister for Foreign Affairs replied to questions during Question Time, he made statements regarding inability to call for the end of war and the establishment of aid corridors. Given that we will not have an opportunity to debate the Afghan conflict, the threat to civilian life, the loss of humanitarian aid and the capacity to deliver aid, will the Tánaiste arrange for time to be allowed tomorrow for statements on the situation in Afghanistan, the threat to civilian life and, in particular, the failure to initiate a proposal of the Security Council to establish aid corridors to enable aid to be delivered to the people of Afghanistan?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. Stagg

There is no such thing as a matter for the Whips.

Mr. M. Higgins

Time should be made available before the end of the this week's sittings to facilitate a debate on this matter.

The Tánaiste

That may well be a good idea and perhaps the Whips could discuss that suggestion this evening. EU Foreign Ministers are meeting in Luxembourg tomorrow to discuss the aid implications of what is happening.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The number of ambulance calls out in Dublin has increased from approximately 20,000 in 1985—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a statement.

Mr. G. Mitchell

—to almost 90,000 today; yet there are still only 11 ambulances. Will the orders to implement the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act be laid before the House shortly? Will an opportunity be taken to explain why Dublin has been left critically short of ambulances and is unable to cope with any further emergencies?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can table a parliamentary question regarding the latter question. Is there legislation?

The Tánaiste

No.

Mr. Howlin

Some time ago we published a document aimed at ending the chaos relating to asylum issues and work permits. The Tánaiste promised the early presentation of the work permits Bill many months ago. Will it be introduced before she leaves office?

The Tánaiste

Yes, the heads of the Bill are ready and the legislation will be published soon I hope.

Mr. Howlin

When?

The Tánaiste

Fairly soon; later this year or the beginning of next year.

Mr. R. Bruton

Will the Tánaiste bring forward the Garda ombudsman Bill? The GRA is reporting that gardaí on the beat are an endangered species and that we must depend on virtual policing. This zero tolerance Government has reached the stage where it is not able to offer anything but high-profile policing at junctions without any other serious policing being undertaken.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to make a statement.

Mr. R. Bruton

A proper debate on resourcing of the Garda is needed.

The Tánaiste

The Garda Síochána Bill will be published next year.

Mr. Quinn

That is a different Bill.

Mr. Boylan

Will it be published before or after the election?

The Tánaiste

We have more than half a year.

Mr. Gilmore

I refer to the Housing (Private Rented Sector) Bill, for which the Tánaiste's party colleague, Deputy Molloy, has responsibility. The Taoiseach stated yesterday the Bill would be published during the lifetime of the Government, which was the first specific commitment we received in regard to this legislation. However, it is still listed as a Bill for which heads have not yet been agreed. When does the Tánaiste expect the heads to be agreed by the Government?

The Tánaiste

I understand the heads of the Bill will be brought to Cabinet before Christmas and the Bill will be published next year.

Mr. Noonan

The Tánaiste will be aware under normal Cabinet procedure that when a Bill is brought to Cabinet the sponsoring Minister has a brief which enables him or her to answer all questions posed by colleagues on the detail of the legislation. I sent 34 questions to the Taoiseach two weeks ago regarding the Bill that will underpin the next referendum but I have not received a reply yet. What is the difficulty with the answers? Answers are normally ready and available.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not in order on the Order of Business. The Deputy knows there are other ways to raise that issue properly.

Mr. Stagg

There will be no referendum.

Mr. Howlin

The Government is back-pedalling.

Mr. Rabbitte

Has the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell, rebelled again?

Mr. Noonan

Could the Tánaiste exercise her Blessed Virgin role with the Taoiseach and intercede for me to ascertain whether I will get answers?

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is not in order on the Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Noonan has made many sexist comments this morning and it is not in his nature.

Mr. Noonan

I did not intend them in any sexist way.

The Tánaiste

I hope not. The Deputy will get full answers very quickly. I understand the replies are being worked on.

Mr. Belton

When can we expect anti-terrorism legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there promised legislation?

The Tánaiste

Yes, a large number of Bills are promised, which will be published over the next few weeks in the run up to Christmas. Seven different Bills will be published over the next month or so.

Mr. Martin

The Deputy will be busy.