Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 2002

Vol. 549 No. 1

Priority Questions. - Green Paper on Abortion.

Liz McManus

Ceist:

30 Ms McManus asked the Minister for Health and Children if his attention has been drawn to the letter written by the president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists expressing concern at the misrepresentation of the college's position in regard to suicide and abortion in the Government's Green Paper on Abortion and expressing the wish that the college would not want the debate on abortion to be misinformed; the steps he will take to correct the record in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5980/02]

Mr. Martin

On 4 February 2002 I received a letter from the President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists regarding the Green Paper on Abortion. The college drew attention to a quotation contained in the Green Paper from a report entitled "The Physical and Psycho-Social effects of Abortion on Women", which had been produced in 1994 by a private commission of inquiry under the chairmanship of Lord Rawlinson of Ewell. The college indicated in its letter that the quotation in question did not accurately represent the statement to the Rawlinson commission of one of the psychiatrists who gave evidence on its behalf. The college stated that the psychiatrist had said that there were no absolute psychiatric indications for termination of pregnancy and that termination of pregnancy would always have to be worked out on the basis of an individual patient.

The Government has noted the college's position on this issue. The quotation about which the college has expressed concern was quoted in the Green Paper on Abortion in good faith. It appeared in Chapter 5, which dealt with the many submissions which had been received and the arguments made in them. The Green Paper stated explicitly that the inclusion of a particular argument or statement in that chapter did not indicate that the Cabinet committee which was responsible for the preparation of the Green Paper was in agreement with it. It is not possible to amend the Green Paper at this stage, this document having been published in September 1999.

The proposals which will be put to the people in the Referendum on the Twenty-Fifth Amendment of the Constitution follow a detailed process of consideration and consultation. This included the preparation of the Green Paper and the detailed hearings held by the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution at which the issues were explored in detail with many of those who had made submissions. In the course of this, the all-party committee met representatives of the medical profession, including a number of psychiatrists, the churches, legal experts and a range of other interested parties to explore in detail the complex medical, legal and social issues involved. The Government believes that the evidence considered in the preparation of the Green Paper, and also the testimony and conclusions in the report of the all-party committee, do not support the maintenance of suicide risk as a ground for abortion in Ireland and would not justify the enactment of a legal basis for abortion to avoid such a risk.

Ms McManus

Does the Minister for Health and Children not accept that not only is he distorting the view of the Royal College of Psychiatrists by refusing to go back and set the record straight in the Green Paper, which he has a duty to do because it is inaccurate, but that he and his Government are peddling an untrue line in terms of psychiatric views of the possibility of suicide in pregnancy? The Royal College of Psychiatrists has made it clear that patients must be treated on an individual basis. The idea that there is no psychiatric justification for termination is simply ludicrous when one looks at what the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Irish division have stated as their view. Surely the Minister would accept that the Government is presenting a distorted view to the electorate about an issue that is extremely important, albeit rare. We know of two such situations already – the X case and the C case – where two young girls, one aged 14 and one 13, were at risk of suicide. The psychiatric report given in court in the C case was sufficient for a judge to determine that, in that case, the little girl had a right to a termination. Does the Minister accept that the continuing inaccuracy and misrepresentations even today from the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs on this issue, give incorrect information to the public and are misleading?

An Ceann Comhairle

I must point out that the Deputy used the word "lie".

Ms McManus

I did not use the word "lie".

An Ceann Comhairle

The term the Deputy used was "untrue lie". That is what the Chair heard.

Ms McManus

I am sorry. Sometimes the Chair does not hear anything but I did not use the word "lie".

An Ceann Comhairle

"Untrue lie" was used.

Ms McManus

I would not use such a word.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy says she did not use the word, the Chair will accept that.

Ms McManus

I thank the Chair. "Untrue" is what I said, but not "lie".

Mr. Martin

I reject the allegation that there is any distortion from the Government side on this issue. I refer to the submissions made by psychiatrists to the all-party committee. I could quote Professor Anthony Clare, who stated that the only reason he appeared before the health committee was that psychiatrists have become involved in the issue of abortion and that they have been drawn in to try to get people off the hook over this issue of danger to the health and life of a woman who is pregnant and wishes to terminate the pregnancy. He pointed out that there is no one better than a psychiatrist to say that if this is refused, a woman will kill herself.

Ms McManus

He also went on to say that there were cases—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister without interruption. The Minister must be let reply and then the Chair will give the floor to the Deputy.

Ms McManus

He is quoting selectively.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will give the floor to the Deputy in due course.

Mr. Martin

I am not.

Ms McManus

He is quoting selectively. I was at the hearings.

Mr. Martin

I have a statement here.

Ms McManus

I was at the hearings, I have the record and I know what Professor Clare said.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is aware that there is a time limit.

Mr. Martin

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

Ms McManus

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume her seat and allow the Minister to reply. The Deputy is aware—

Mr. Martin

That is what he said. He said there is no fail-safe test—

An Ceann Comhairle

The House is aware that there is a strict limit on these questions and we can only get full value from the question if the Minister is allowed to reply and then there is an opportunity for the Deputy to come back and ask a supplementary question.

Mr. Martin

The bottom line is that the Government, particularly after the interdepartmental committee which examined the suicide issue, looked at the submissions to the all-party committee by a range of consultant psychiatrists, obstetricians and gynaecologists. What came across clearly was that abortion would never be offered as a treatment for suicide. That is what psychiatrists said to the all-party committee.

Ms McManus

That is not true.

Mr. Martin

Psychiatrists did say that. The Deputy should not try to distort what was said.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will allow the Deputy to come back. Please, we cannot have two Members speaking. It is not permissible for two Deputies to be on their feet at one time. Please allow the Minister to make his answer and then the Deputy can ask a supplementary.

Mr. Martin

I went through Committee Stage of the Bill on the referendum with Deputy McManus. I know what psychiatrists said to the Oireachtas committee. They clearly said that abortion would not be offered as a treatment—

Ms McManus

They said suicide as a consequence of treatment being refused was a low risk but not absolutely non-existent. That is on the record of the submissions.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's remarks cannot be recorded in the Official Report.

Mr. Martin

I want to go further.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must be brief.

Mr. Martin

I have been trying but I have been repeatedly interrupted. I did not interrupt Deputy McManus when she made a whole range of allegations against the Government with which I disagree. I am quoting from oral submissions by psychiatrists to the Oireachtas committee of which the Government took consideration.

I also make the point that if we wanted really to debate the suicide issue up front and honestly with the people, those who are advocating that suicide should be retained as a ground for abortion should come out and say under what circumstances. The people have never been given an alternative option as to how suicide could be legislated for.

Ms McManus

That is also not true, the All-Party Expert Review Group—

Mr. Martin

How would we legislate for it? I am talking about political parties. Deputy McManus, you did not put forward any details—

Ms McManus

The Minister is wrong. He is misleading the House and he is wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must address the Chair.

Mr. Martin

The Deputy has refused to put forward the details of how she would legislate for suicide. She has refused to do it and her party has refused to do it.

Ms McManus

We would have no problem with legislating.

Mr. Martin

Publish legislation then.

Ms McManus

We would do a better job than this Government.

Mr. Martin

Then publish a Bill. Publish a Bill. The Deputy will not do it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is time to move on to Question No. 31. Under the rules of the House, the time allocated for this question has expired.