Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Jun 2003

Vol. 568 No. 5

Ceisteanna – Questions. - Dublin–Monaghan Bombings.

Pat Rabbitte

Ceist:

1 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he has received an indication to date from Mr. Justice Barron, as to when he expects to complete his report into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which was originally expected to have been published in Autumn 2002; if he has satisfied himself that Mr. Justice Barron has all the resources necessary to allow him to complete his report at the earliest possible date; if consideration has been given to an interim report, especially having regard to the fact that May 2003 marked the 29th anniversary of this atrocity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13533/03]

Pat Rabbitte

Ceist:

2 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if he has received correspondence from the Justice for the Forgotten Group, urging that steps be taken to ensure that victims of violence know the truth as to the circumstances of their loss or injury, and asking that the two Governments and parties to the Good Friday Agreement commit themselves to the establishment of public inquiries whereby the truth as to the cause and circumstances of atrocities cannot otherwise be obtained; his views on the request from the group and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13534/03]

Enda Kenny

Ceist:

3 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when he expects the Commission of Inquiry into the 1974 Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk bombings to complete its work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14219/03]

Enda Kenny

Ceist:

4 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the costs which have accrued to his Department since January 2003 in respect of the Commission of Inquiry into the 1974 Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk bombings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14220/03]

Tony Gregory

Ceist:

5 Mr. Gregory asked the Taoiseach when Mr. Justice Barron will publish his report into the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14417/03]

Trevor Sargent

Ceist:

6 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach when the Barron report into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings is now expected to be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14726/03]

Enda Kenny

Ceist:

7 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach when he expects the Commission of Inquiry into the 1974 Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk bombings to complete its work; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15217/03]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Ceist:

8 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach when the report of the Barron inquiry will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15277/03]

Joe Higgins

Ceist:

9 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach when he expects Mr. Justice Barron to publish the report of the Commission of Inquiry into the 1974 Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk bombings; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16754/03]

The Taoiseach

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 9, inclusive, together.

I understand from Mr. Justice Barron that he has almost completed the drafting of his report into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings which also includes consideration of other events including the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973, the Castleblaney bombing of 1976 and the murders of John Francis Green and Bríd Carr and he expects his report to be ready for publication after the summer. I also understand that Mr. Justice Barron considers that he has the resources necessary to complete his work. He has not indicated his intention to make an interim report. The cost of the commission to date this year amounts to approximately €398,000.

I have received correspondence from the group, Justice for the Forgotten, urging that in discussions on the peace process, the needs of victims to know the truth as to the circumstances of their loss or injury be given full recognition, and asking that the two Governments and parties to the Good Friday Agreement commit themselves to the establishment of public inquiries where the truth as to the cause and circumstances of atrocities cannot otherwise be obtained.

At Weston Park, both Governments acknowledged that certain cases from the past remained a source of grave public concern, particularly those giving rise to serious allegations of collusion by the security forces. Subsequently, Mr. Justice Peter Cory agreed to undertake a thorough investigation of allegations of collusion in the cases of the murders of Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan, Pat Finucane, Lord Justice and Lady Gibson, Robert Hamill, Rosemary Nelson and Billy Wright. If Mr. Justice Cory considers that in any case a public inquiry is required, the relevant Government will implement that recommendation. With regard to any other public inquiries into other incidents or events, I believe it would be best to await Mr. Justice Cory's report and recommendations.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am grateful to the Taoiseach. When he says that the report is almost completed, could he indicate why it has taken so long? He gave the same answer on 22 April last year when he said that the report would be completed in autumn 2002. Is the Taoiseach aware of any of the reasons for the delay in completion? Has it to do with lack of co-operation from the British authorities or are areas still outstanding in which co-operation from those authorities is less than it might be? Does the Taoiseach know if Mr. Justice Barron will make specific findings, reach specific conclusions or make particular recommendations? When the Taoiseach receives the report, is it still his intention to refer it in the first instance to the appropriate Oireachtas committee?

The Taoiseach

It remains my intention that the report, when received, will be immediately referred to the appropriate Oireachtas committee where it will be examined. The latest indication is that we will have the report in September. It will then be referred to the committee, which could consider it straight away when it resumes its work in the autumn.

I am not sure how Mr. Justice Barron intends to write up his report. I imagine he will try to give as much detail as he can, whether in the form of recommendations or further actions, on the manner in which we could proceed. The delay can be attributed to the ongoing nature of the deliberations, and the difficulties encountered by the British Government in acquiring the data. The Irish Government did everything it could to deal with this issue. There were direct dealings between Mr. Justice Barron and the British authorities through the NIO, the British Government and its agencies. We will have to wait for the report to see if Mr. Justice Barron is entirely happy with that co-operation, but no matters are currently outstanding at this stage. This is not to say that Mr. Justice Barron got everything he wanted as that might be an over-optimistic assessment. We will have to wait and see the recommendations.

The delay in publication can also be attributed to the fact that the team working with Mr. Justice Barron continued to follow through on the various issues. It spent considerable time consulting the records of this House, those of the Garda and those they received through the co-operation of the NIO and the British authorities. The team also followed up other related matters, as we in this House had asked them to do. We asked them not to confine their investigations to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings but to look at other cases, some of which were related to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings while others were on a different track. The team spent a good deal of time on those matters.

The end result is that we have dealt with all the outstanding cases. I am not aware of the situation in this regard and I do not want to give the impression that I am so aware. Mr. Justice Barron is not briefing me directly on this issue. I only know that he is at the final stages of drafting the report. I hope it will be printed and circulated in the House in September. I made it clear that is what I want. I do not want to go further, if that is possible, and I understand that will be possible.

Mr. Rabbitte

As regards the Remembrance Fund which was announced yesterday, when will the members of the commission be appointed? Perhaps the Taoiseach will indicate to the House when the families concerned may expect payments to be made. Will he also indicate the scope or parameters of eligibility in that regard? Has the Government given consideration to reopening the Garda investigation, given the dissatisfaction expressed publicly by the relatives and families of those affected about the Garda investigation at the time?

The Taoiseach

As regards the Remembrance Fund, I announced a few months ago that €3 million would be provided this year to address the needs of the victims in this jurisdiction of the conflict in Northern Ireland and it will be administered through the Remembrance Fund. I understand the trustees of that fund will be announced shortly by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Last week we agreed the proposals by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in relation to the administration of the fund. Those proposals will be proceeded with as a matter of urgency. Yesterday the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform met Justice for the Forgotten and he outlined the basis on which the payments will be made.

The payments involve acknowledgement payments of €15,000 to bereaved families or persons who were either killed in this jurisdiction or were resident in this jurisdiction at the time of their death, lump sums to spouses and dependent children of victims who were killed in this jurisdiction or resident here at the time of their death and injured victims, subject to the condition that amounts do not exceed €15,000 per applicant. Unless already covered by payments under the previous category, unmet and continuing medical costs and vouched medical expenses will be covered, including some health expenses not already paid for by another body or State agency.

There is an allocation of payments up to €15,000, subject to conditions, to people who had to move as a direct consequence of the conflict in Northern Ireland and the payment of a grant to the Northern Ireland Memorial Fund. There is also payment for the counselling needs of persons in this jurisdiction who were injured as a direct result of the conflict in Northern Ireland. This will be met by the health boards or the victim support groups, such as Justice for the Forgotten. Provision has been made in the Estimates for this purpose. The Government has approved expenditure of €9 million over the expected three year period of the fund. It is expected the commission will be in a position to seek applications for payments under the various categories of the proposed scheme later in the year.

I referred to ongoing medical expenses. A number of people, although not many, are still in receipt of ongoing medical treatment. A few individuals are still having shrapnel removed from their bodies. A case was highlighted recently where an individual had shrapnel removed from the knee and elbow, and there have been a few other similar cases. They will receive assistance because they have not received aid up to now.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will payments be made to people other than the immediate relatives concerned in the particular bombings?

The Taoiseach

No, other than those categories I mentioned, namely, the relatives of people who have been directly injured or killed or those receiving ongoing medical treatment. Some of those who are receiving medical treatment may not necessarily have been injured in the bombing but they suffered different ailments afterwards or were traumatised in one form or another and continued to have difficulties over the years. There is a small number of them.

Mr. Kenny

On 17 May 1974, 33 people lost their lives – 26 in Dublin city centre and seven in Monaghan. The purpose of the Barron inquiry is to determine whether British security forces colluded with the UVF in those attacks. It is probably difficult for anybody in the House or for our predecessors to appreciate the pain that lingers among the members of the Justice for the Forgotten group when they do not know what happened or the reasons for the deaths of their loved ones and so on. The publication of the Stevens report and the "Stakeknife" episode adds further confusion and pain to the memories of the people in the Justice for the Forgotten Group.

A sizeable proportion of people in surveys carried out in Britain recently, for whatever reason, do not trust the British Prime Minister in regard to the truth. I do not say whether that is the reality. Will the Taoiseach raise this matter with the British Prime Minister on Friday in Greece when he meets him at the EU leaders' summit? Will he remind him that Mr. Justice Barron expects to publish his report by September and that he will be unhappy if he does not have it out by September? Will he urge him again to make sure all the information relevant to the report is given by the British authorities to Mr. Justice Barron so that the central fact of collusion between the British forces and the UVF in 1974 may be apparent?

The inquest will resume symbolically on Friday but it will not have practical effect until following the publication of the Barron inquiry report. The case of one of the victims of the Monaghan bombing was not concluded and the inquest will re-open on that case. Does the Taoiseach consider from his sources of information that there is justification in calling for an expansion of that inquest in that other victims of the bombings may, in justice and in equity, feel the inquest should also resume in the cases of their loved ones?

The Taoiseach

I reiterate that we have gone through a long process of trying to get additional information from various sources within the British establishment and that has been completed. Mr. Justice Barron will make his views known on whether that was entirely satisfactory but I will not re-open that issue. We went through a long period of trying to get the information and set up meetings with him between various individuals. His team held those meetings and we will have to wait to see what Mr. Justice Barron states about it.

On the inquest, I have spent a great deal of time on all these cases over the years, including all the cases that we have referred to Judge Cory's inquiry. There are different views about what happened and why it happened but the House should understand the circumstances. In the Troubles of Northern Ireland at that stage atrocities were being committed practically on a daily basis. There was plenty of speculation about collusion at the time of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, which I remember well. It was strongly believed at the time that there was collusion but the question was trying to prove it. These issues were dealt with at a remove and I have spent long hours talking to the families over many years. However, the reality is the Barron inquiry has been our first real attempt to find and go through all the information to see where we get.

With regard to the Garda investigation, about which Deputy Rabbitte asked me earlier, I informed the families five or six years ago of my information about that. I found it extraordinary that the Garda investigation into the biggest atrocity in the South during the entire period of the troubles was opened and closed within a year. The position with the inquests was similar. They opened on 27 May 1974 and the death certificates were issued, and they were not held again. That is extraordinary. We must look at what was in the minds of people at the time, who were concerned with other issues. The findings of the Garda investigation have been available to Mr. Justice Barron. We must await the report of the Barron tribunal and see where we can go from there. There is no point in my trying to second guess that report.

When delegations from Northern Ireland ask me to look at individual cases I am advised that if we were to open all those cases, involving various groups and including the security elements, we would never achieve trust and confidence. I have views on that question which I may express when the Barron and Cory inquiries have been completed. I am frequently asked, by all sides, not to go down the road of inquiry. They may not ask publicly but they certainly do so privately. We must try to get to the end of the Barron and Cory inquiries. If we were to investigate every case and establish public inquiries it would create much difficulty, perhaps not now but for the next 20 or 30 years.

We are committed to completing the Barron inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and related cases and the Cory inquiry into the cases which were agreed in Weston Park, and we should complete those. I hope that in some of those cases there will be sufficient evidence and new information to justify full inquiries. I have always felt particularly strongly about the Pat Finucane case and I believe there is a large amount of evidence to justify an inquiry into it. However, that evidence must stand up and when Mr. Justice Cory reports in the autumn we will see that evidence.

The Garda investigation opened in 1974 and closed n 1975, and that sounds extraordinary now. The coroner issued death certificates in 1974 and then, effectively, the case was closed. In recent years I have asked myself why those events were not investigated. Mr. Justice Barron will review those records. I can only imagine that so many other atrocities were happening at the time that it was thought that the investigation could not be brought further. That seems strange when one looks back at what happened in 1975 and 1976 but those are the decisions that were made. The investigations were not subsequently reopened and successive Governments did not so request until we began to look at the question again in 1998 after the Good Friday Agreement.

Let us wait for the findings of Mr. Justice Barron's inquiry and examine them in this House. Let us also look at Mr. Justice Cory's report when it is made.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for his forthrightness in this reply. It is of critical importance that everything is done to determine the facts of what occurred so that people will know whether there was collusion between the British security forces and the UVF, and why 33 people lost their lives in 1974.

Assuming Mr. Justice Cory and Mr. Justice Barron bring in their reports on time and given the Taoiseach's personal interest in this matter, if either inquiry finds evidence that would require the reopening of the Garda inquiry here will he be prepared to follow through on that and order such a reopening? It seems extraordinary that the Garda inquiry finished up in 1975 at very short notice. I ask the Taoiseach to reiterate the importance of this matter when he meets Prime Minister Blair on Friday – perhaps he will confirm that he will at least mention it to the Prime Minister.

The Taoiseach

I know Deputy Kenny is not suggesting this but if I say I will not open up that inquiry, it will seem I am not prepared to do so. I am prepared to do anything to get to the truth.

On the lapse of time, the extensive records which existed were examined. Therefore, it was not that the Garda Síochána did nothing, but its members obviously brought it to a particular stage. In the circumstances which probably existed at the time, they may have felt they would not get any further and other events probably took over.

At least substantial information exists and the Garda has totally co-operated and been very helpful in all of this. As the Deputy can imagine, 26 or 27 years later no one involved in those investigations at any level remains but people, within and outside this jurisdiction, came forward to Mr. Justice Barron, and to Mr. Justice Hamilton in the first instance, and therefore they have had the benefit of all that information. I am not a legal person and cannot say whether this will stand up. Unless I am entirely wrong, as I have said time and again to the British authorities and in this House, there was collusion in the Pat Finucane case. Again, the question is whether this will stand up. I will be very disappointed – but I will have to accept it because that is what I agreed to do – if Mr. Justice Cory does not opt for a public inquiry in the Pat Finucane case, and perhaps in other cases also. We will have to await that decision but we will know soon enough. In fact, Mr. Justice Cory is finished a number of his reports and those reports are now being held pending the completion of all the reports which he wants to present to both Governments. We will just have to wait.

There has been recent evidence about Rosemary Nelson which Stevens must further investigate. Loyalist paramilitary people have stated that members of the then RUC offered to treat them in a particular way if they were to look at some of the people who were causing them problems. These are serious allegations and must also be examined by Stevens. I have made no comment about Stakeknife because, frankly, I do not have sufficient evidence although I have heard plenty about him. I honestly do not know what is the position.

I have been assured that Mr. Justice Barron will complete his work over the summer and I still believe Mr. Justice Cory, whose work has been delayed by a few weeks because his wife has been ill, will finish his report in the autumn.

Mr. Gregory

Given that the Taoiseach has described the period between the opening and closing of the Garda investigation at the time as being extraordinarily brief, is he aware whether Mr. Justice Barron has pursued this issue with the members of the then coalition Government and, if so, has he received full co-operation from the members of that Government in this inquiry and on that specific question in which they must have had quite a deep interest?

On the meeting due to be held this Friday with the coroner on the arrangements for the resumption of the inquest, there appears to be an issue regarding co-operation with the police authority in the North of Ireland. On any resumption of the inquest, which I understand will take place following the publication of the Barron report, will the Taoiseach ensure that steps are taken to ensure full co-operation and that wherever co-operation is sought, such a request will have the full backing of the Government?

The Taoiseach has referred to Mr. Justice Cory's investigation. If Mr. Justice Cory recommends the need for a public inquiry into the murders he is investigating, does the Taoiseach agree that would at the very least add to the case being made by the relatives of the Dublin and Monaghan victims for a full public inquiry following the publication of the Barron report?

The Taoiseach

We will give full co-operation and assistance in the matter of the inquest.

Mr. Gregory

The issue is whether there will be full co-operation by the Police Service of Northern Ireland and that it will give whatever information is sought by the inquest.

The Taoiseach

I believe it will. The new Chief Constable, Mr. Orde, has been very co-operative. I do not think there will be a difficulty. I believe they will co-operate if they have any data and records and we will endeavour to ensure that co-operation.

The Garda investigation does not have anything to do with the Government. It was a Garda operational matter and the Garda would have dealt with it on that basis. The Garda conducted the investigation but the circumstances of the time were different and it was probably thought that the investigation would not get any further. That information has been made available to Mr. Justice Barron. He has spoken to the Garda. I have not been directing his investigation. The Government appointed him to do a job and both he and the late Mr. Justice Hamilton have expended an extraordinary amount of effort and commitment on the job. The only area in which the inquiry was assisted by the Government was when we were asked to facilitate them by opening doors through contacts with the Garda Síochána or Departments, the Northern Ireland Office, the British Government or the security system. In each case we used our good offices to do that.

The Garda investigation at the time was an operational matter. Mr. Justice Barron's inquiry has been able to follow those issues through. The period of time in question saw many events and issues happening in this jurisdiction, including many atrocities. The Garda investigating teams would have been involved in the investigation of those events. We must await the publication of Mr. Justice Barron's report to see whether he was given all the co-operation he required.

Mr. Sargent

Like Deputy Gregory, I picked up on the comment made by the Taoiseach that the suspension of the inquest is extraordinary. Given that it was the largest act of mass murder in the history of the State, it is implausible to state that the inquest was suspended because it could not be progressed any further. Is that the most plausible reason the Government can give? I know there was trauma at the time. I was caught up in it but luckily, I was not injured. Is it acceptable to say that it could not be brought any further?

I understand the €9 million remembrance fund is to be established on a statutory basis pending the approval of the Attorney General. Is this matter being dealt with in a manner satisfactory to the Minister for Finance, given the times we are living in? Will the Taoiseach confirm that the fund will be operational by September?

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the Stevens inquiry, which dealt with collusion in the late 1980s? All collusion, not just that in the late 1980s, needs to be investigated and exposed. Will the report of the Stevens inquiry be made available in full to the Government and Opposition parties and will it be made public? To what extent will the report be published?

The Taoiseach

Does the Deputy refer to the report of Mr. Justice Barron?

Mr. Sargent

I want the Taoiseach to deal with the Stevens report, the publication of which will give us an idea of the extent of the collusion that needs to be investigated. Will the Government look for disclosure in relation to the full period of the Troubles, as there has been a suggestion that collusion was a deep-seated aspect of the entire sorry episode?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked about resources and I can inform him that the money has already been provided in this year's Estimates. That is up and running.

Mr. Sargent

For September.

The Taoiseach

Yes, it is already in the Estimates. The resources will be available as soon as the period of the Estimates commences. Some €3 million per year is being made available over a three-year period.

All I am giving in relation to the inquest is the factual position. As most of us recall, the bombings in Dublin and Monaghan took place on the afternoon of Friday, 17 May 1974. The inquest met ten days later, on 27 May 1974, and a report was produced. The evidence presented, which concerned the identities of the victims and medical evidence, enabled the death certificates to be issued. The inquest adjourned and did not meet again until the other day. I can dramatise my view of how things happened, but I am just giving the factual position. If the Garda investigation took place now we would all be in here standing on our heads, but there were different circumstances at the time. The matter was investigated in detail at a certain period in time and then it stopped.

Mr. F. McGrath

Shame.

The Taoiseach

That is what happened. After the Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998, the relatives of the victims, with whom other Members and I had been in contact over the years, asked the Government to see what could be done in relation to the matter. I asked for clearance from the Government and then we moved. That is what has brought us to this point. There was no active file on the matter, or on hundreds of other cases on this island, between 1976 and 1998. That is the reality. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to go back and deal with all these cases. We can do our best through the Barron and Cory investigations. The cases that were to be included in the Cory investigation were agreed two years ago at Weston Park. If there are public inquiries into some of these issues, in whatever jurisdiction, the Governments have agreed to deal with them. There will be public inquiries into such matters. I fought hard in the previous Government for the establishment of the Saville inquiry and I convinced the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, to establish the inquiry, which is ongoing. It is hoped that the inquiry will bring some conclusions to this issue.

In 1997 I saw the difficulties that exist in this regard. President de Klerk, Cyril Ramaphosa and others, who were at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, said that the only way to deal with these matters was by means of a truth and reconciliation commission. I floated this idea at the time but did not receive much support. I received less support when I floated it again. I am quite frank about this issue. We have to deal with it on whatever basis we can. It is best if we allow Mr. Justice Barron, who is examining the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and four or five related cases, and Mr. Justice Cory, who is looking at another half a dozen cases, complete their work before we analyse the issue as a whole. If we believe that we can open up all cases and have public investigations into them all – if one wants to do that, I am sure we can do so – we will not get trust and confidence and we will not be able to move the political agenda forward at the same time. That is my fear.

What we have agreed to, we will finish. It is difficult, but we must try to deal with this as best we can. Not a week passes during which I do not meet the relatives of people involved in some terrible atrocity. This is happening more and more. It has been, and will be, extraordinarily difficult to investigate and get to the bottom of all of these matters.

Mr. Sargent

Who will see the Stevens report?

The Taoiseach

We have sought early publication of the report. As we have seen, the interim reports from Stevens were published about a month ago so I am sure the final report will be published.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Late last year, the Taoiseach in response to questions on the Barron inquiry, stated that Mr. Justice Barron's report would be available in early 2003. Today he gave us a number of answers as to when he now expects it to be published mentioning "after the summer", "September" and "in the autumn". Given that the Taoiseach earlier indicated different expected closing dates over the period of Mr. Justice Hamilton's and Mr. Justice Barron's work, how confident is he that any of the three responses he gave today will prove to be correct and that we will see publication in any or all of those cases? Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that the publication of the report is but the first part of a process and that the report must then go before an Oireachtas committee? What is the current position in that regard?

Does the Taoiseach support the oft-repeated demand of members of the Justice for the Forgotten group – the families, the bereaved and the injured – for a full public inquiry into the events of 17 May 1974 in this city and in my home town of Monaghan? Will he support that call and what is his position on it?

The Taoiseach indicated that some material may or may not have been presented to Mr. Justice Barron. He stated in his reply that he has all the material—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should confine himself to questions.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is a question, a Cheann Comhairle. The Taoiseach indicated that Mr. Justice Barron has all the material he requires but added, quite wisely, that this does not necessarily mean that he received all the material.

What efforts has the Taoiseach employed in the recent past in arguing the position with British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, that full co-operation is an absolute requirement in terms of reaching the full truth and, ultimately, justice in these particular cases and that the responsibility rests with the British Prime Minister to ensure full co-operation from all elements of the so-called British security forces and the secret services which operate under their control? Just to—

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, there is no time for another question. The Deputy has asked four supplementaries.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is a very brief addendum.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Joe Higgins also submitted a question. Deputy Ó Caoláin spent four minutes asking questions. I call Deputy Higgins.

Mr. J. Higgins

When did the Taoiseach last speak to the British Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, on this issue? Mr. Justice Barron told The Irish Times recently that he would be very unhappy if his report was not out by September.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Mr. J. Higgins

Is the Taoiseach aware of this statement and of any reason why this might not happen? Does it relate to co-operation from Britain?

The Taoiseach indicated that the circumstances in 1974 were different from now in explaining the speed with which the inquest was opened and adjourned. What is so different about cases in which dozens of people are killed? It is an extraordinary situation, even at this remove. Does the Taoiseach agree that the Government and Cabinet of the day, specifically the Ministers for Justice and Defence of the day, had political responsibility for this sensitive political issue which was not an operational matter? Does the Taoiseach believe that, for political reasons, the Cabinet of the day did not push the question because of fear of what might be found, in terms of collusion by security forces north of the Border?

A Deputy

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I am not writing the report – it is being written by Mr. Justice Barron. There is a quasi-judicial system in operation. With the agreement of the House some years ago, the Government consulted with the then Chief Justice, the late Mr. Justice Hamilton, as to how to deal with such matters. The Judiciary is totally independent in terms of its work and how judges deal with their investigations – and that is how it should be. My record of predicting the completion of tribunals has not been good in the past five years. However, I hope this will be finished in September and it is certainly my understanding that it will be.

In reply to Deputy Joe Higgins, I am trying to look at the context in which people's minds would have been on different investigations. There were many atrocities and a huge number of issues affecting the security of the State in those years. No doubt, those concerned were carrying out investigations without making any progress and were moving on to other issues, many of which all of us will remember. At this remove, I can only assume that must have been the reason – that they felt they were not going to get much data or information and, accordingly, these matters were closed and they moved on to something else. I do not believe there was any malice involved. Apparently, that was how they were operating, strange as it may seem. I believe that is the reality.

I have raised all of those issues with the Prime Minister Mr. Blair, with successive Secretaries of State and others in the British establishment over several years. We have now reached a certain point and we will just have to wait to see what are the views of Mr. Justice Barron. As he is the person for whom we were trying to obtain information, we will have to await his views on the information he has received, the meetings he has had and the assistance he got from Mr. Blair directly and from the Secretaries of State. I just do not know whether he got everything he needed and what was actually available. We will just have to wait for his report.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Taoiseach support the call from relatives of the victims for a full public inquiry?

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Questions to the Taoiseach. We now move to Ceist Uimh. 75, in ainm an Teachta Allen, to the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government.