Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 2003

Vol. 573 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be No. 15, motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions; No. 16, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Cartagena Protocol to the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity, back from committee; No. 3, the Courts and Court Officers (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 21, the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 15 and 16 shall be decided without debate. Private Members' business shall be No. 37, motion re Hospital Services.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 15 and 16 agreed?

Mr. Kenny

I do not object to the change in the ministerial rota. I understand the business of the Whips being informed about what happens at committees when matters are referred to them by the House has not yet been sorted out. I do not know which committee dealt with the Cartagena Protocol to the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity. It might be appropriate that a paragraph indicating what the committee did be made available to the Whips so that we would not have to object to these matters.

Mr. Stagg

A format has been agreed by the Whips. Under the chairmanship of Deputy Power, we received a sample report which was satisfactory to the Labour Party.

Mr. Sargent

Although the items stand on their merits, I object to the manner in which they are being taken. The issue of the Ministers' rota for Question Time, as local an issue as one can get, is being lumped in with the question of preparation for a meeting in Malaysia next February, a global issue. Would the Dáil not be better served in recognising the separate nature of each item? By lumping the two together we demean the validity of each. I ask that they be revisited.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is that the two items be taken without debate. There will be an opportunity for Deputies to express their views on them separately.

The Taoiseach

I understand the two items are being taken together here but when the motions are moved, they will be decided separately. It has been agreed to take them without debate.

With regard to Deputy Kenny's point, in future there will be a short report from the committee. If it recommends that the House debate the issue, it will state this. In future its view that the House should have a further debate on the issue will be listed. This should avoid the problem we have encountered in the past.

Mr. Kenny

Again today, a number of Deputies made requests to adjourn the Dáil under Standing Order 31 to discuss matters of interest. In view of the fact that all parties have brought forward proposals for a more effective working of the Houses of the Oireachtas, when will the Chief Whip bring forward the Government's proposals on the matter?

Last year's interim report of the Flood tribunal was sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Has the Government received a report from the Director of Public Prosecutions regarding follow-up action which he might contemplate?

The Taoiseach

The Director of Public Prosecutions does not report back to the Government.

The Whips are looking at the issue of Oireachtas reform and a number of questions have arisen. A few years ago we introduced Leaders' Questions because the topical issues of the day were not being discussed. The Order of Business used to take a short time and only one question was allowed. We formalised our way of dealing with topical issues of the day. I suppose this shows what can happen.

Mr. Rabbitte

What, in the name of God, is the Taoiseach talking about?

The Taoiseach

When I started in this job, the Order of Business used to take 15 minutes. Many questions were raised as private notice questions to be dealt with on the Adjournment. I agreed, wisely or stupidly, that for the first time in the history of the State we would have Leaders' Questions every day to deal with the issue.

Ms O. Mitchell

On two days.

Mr. Allen

Thursday is a rest day.

The Taoiseach

The Taoiseach used never take questions on Thursdays.

Mr. Connaughton

He should have done.

The Taoiseach

The Taoiseach never took questions on Thursdays.

Mr. Allen

That is not true. The Taoiseach took questions on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Taoiseach never took questions on the Order of Business.

Mr. Allen

On Thursdays.

The Taoiseach

Never. It would be worth spending a minute on this because Members have forgotten was used to happen. There was an Order of Business on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays which used to take about 15 minutes. I now regularly spend half an hour or 40 minutes on the Order of Business, which I do not mind. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays there was Question Time which, shortly before my time, was extended from one hour to one hour and a half.

Because a number of Members were raising topical questions – the point Deputy Kenny has made – I agreed, in conjuction with other parties, that we would take an additional 30 minutes of Leaders' questions twice a week. We moved from having an hour and a half for questions to having Leaders' Questions for an hour, an hour and a half for parliamentary questions and God knows what for the Order of Business.

Mr. G. Mitchell

We still cannot get answers.

The Taoiseach

This is far longer than any other Government leader in Europe by about 400%.

Ms Burton

This explains benchmarking.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach wants to know if we think he is being wise or stupid. It would be invidious of me to choose between the two. I think he is being cute. When I came into this House, matters that could be considered for the Adjournment were raised by every backbencher and when the Ceann Comhairle said he could not proceed, the Deputy would ask if the matter could be considered for inclusion on the Adjournment. I do not understand this rewriting of history about the Order of Business lasting 15 minutes. There was a great deal more spontaneity and raising of current issues at the time.

My colleague, Deputy Connaughton, raised the question of the landslide at Derrybrien. I do not know what kind of landslide it would take before you, a Cheann Comhairle, would permit a debate on such an issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to cast reflection on the Chair. Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Mr. Connaughton

If it was flooding in Drumcondra, we could have it.

Mr. Rabbitte

We have had moving statues. Now we have a moving mountain but you do not regard it as a matter of urgency for discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should read Standing Order 31.

Mr. Rabbitte

I join Deputy Kenny in asking his question of the Taoiseach, especially after the obloquy which attached to all Deputies as a result of the Government deciding that the House should not sit last week. The media do not understand that it was the Government which decided that the House should not sit.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to ask a question appropriate to the Order of Business or resume his seat in order that we can move on to Deputy Stagg.

Mr. Rabbitte

Since the Government decided not to sit last week and brought obloquy down on the heads of all Members and all political parties, I ask the question to which the Taoiseach did not reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. Rabbitte

What is the Taoiseach's response to the necessity to reorganise the affairs of the House and bring forward a meaningful balanced policy of Oireachtas reform?

The Taoiseach

There is, increasingly, too little time for legislation, which is what the House is meant to be doing. Every year time is increasingly limited by giving more time to the Order of Business, Leaders' Questions, private notice questions and other special debates. We should seek ways of devoting more time to legislation, to which the Government is open. Several Ministers would be glad to be here on Fridays or earlier in the morning. It would be difficult to sit later at night because the House already sits late compared with other parliaments. We should spend more time on legislation. The Government will be happy to consider proposals to do this.

I have been Leader of the Opposition and a Minister in a number of Governments. When I was Leader of the Opposition, if I was not quick in getting off the blocks in the first 20 seconds of the Order of Business, I was ruled out of order and had lost my chance to raise my issue for the entire day. It is not like that now, but that is the way it was and I complied with that.

Mr. Rabbitte

I sat on the Government benches where I looked at the now Taoiseach and do not remember that.

The Taoiseach

I remember it only too well. The Deputy knows who the Chair was at that time and business moved on smartly and quickly. The position is far different now. I am not arguing about that – it does not matter – and I know it will go on after my time, but the difficulty is that we are cutting down too much on our legislation time. If the Deputy asks me what issue we should deal with, it is not jumping up and down on issues that might or might not be important, it is legislation, which is important. That is both my view and that of the Government.

Mr. Sargent

I thank the Taoiseach for making such a convincing argument for a five day Dáil week to provide more time for legislation and I look forward to hearing the timeframe in which it might be introduced. Perhaps the Taoiseach will elaborate on this so that we can start planning for a more productive Dáil week.

As regards more effective legislative throughput, perhaps the Taoiseach will move on to the starting blocks the charities regulation Bill which has not moved forward since the Costello committee report of 1980. I think it has been passed to a third Department. I ask that it stay with the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and be enacted from there rather than be shifted to another Department. Will we get moving on legislation and introduce a five day week?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Sargent represents a party all of whose Members bar one are based in the Dublin area. People must acknowledge that there are difficulties in that Members represent constituencies all over Ireland and that must be taken into account. That should be considered in any debate.

Mr. Sargent

We could meet at lunchtime on Monday.

The Taoiseach

Let us think not just of Dublin-based Members who live within a couple of miles of Leinster House. If one lives in Donegal or west Cork it is a different issue and this must be taken into account. The Government is prepared to look at longer legislative time if that is necessary. I never mentioned a five day week – most Deputies work a six or seven day week.

The heads of the charities regulation Bill are expected early next year.

Cecilia Keaveney

The Green Party must be expecting to expand.

Mr. Hogan

Has the Taoiseach resolved at Cabinet the issues regarding the establishment of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board and will the legislation be published shortly?

The Taoiseach

The legislation is due in about a week.

Mr. M. Higgins

What has happened the legislation on the Great Blaskets, promised by the last Government, as a result of the Supreme Court decision against the State?

Mr. Quinn

It relates to an offshore island of a former leader.

The Taoiseach

I cannot remember what happened it and I will refer to it again. If I remember correctly, there were legal difficulties about bringing forward the legislation. I will check this and communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Cuffe

Fiche bliain ag fás.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Given that there was never a greater need for a financial services ombudsman as citizens are being fleeced by financial institutions right, left and centre and these same institutions—

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on promised legislation?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

—have been facilitating serious and rampant tax evasion, when will the Central Bank and financial services authority of Ireland (No. 2) Bill be published?

The Taoiseach

While I do not have an exact date it will be published this session.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will it be published before Christmas?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. Connaughton

Given the problems they have encountered with landslides, what help will the Government give to the people of Derrybrien?

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Connaughton

On a point of order, will the Ceann Comhairle give me an idea of what mechanism I can use to make the Government accountable and at least tell us what it will do about Derrybrien?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to raise the matter on the Order of Business.

Mr. Connaughton

What is appropriate?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy consults my office he will be advised on a number of ways.

Mr. Connaughton

I sought to raise this matter on the Adjournment and raised it under Standing Order 31, but I still cannot get a word out of the Taoiseach. What am I to do?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Connaughton

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a point of order.

Mr. Connaughton

One talks about accountability to this House. There was a landslide in Galway, but if it happened in Drumcondra the Taoiseach would run out to it. No Minister has—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. Connaughton

A Cheann Comhairle, can you indicate how I can get the Taoiseach to answer a question?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy consults my office he will be given a number of indications.

Mr. Connaughton

Let the Taoiseach answer the question. Will the Government help the people of Derrybrien?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. Connaughton

I am told I am disorderly on a day when we have had a landslide the likes of which we have never seen in the west. Will you give an undertaking that the matter can be raised on the Adjournment?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can consult my office.

Mr. Connaughton

I have already written to the Ceann Comhairle's office.

Mr. Gilmore

Some time ago the Government voted down a Labour Party Bill requiring companies to recognise trade unions. SIPTU is currently in dispute with a company that has waste management contracts from local authorities and the company concerned refuses to recognise the union. In the context of national partnership, is it permissible for a company that holds contracts from a public authority to refuse to recognise a trade union? Is legislation required to oblige local authorities and other authorities to give contracts only to those companies that are at least willing to recognise the basic right of workers to join a trade union. It is 90 years since 1913 and, in an independent Ireland, it surely should be possible that companies would recognise trade unions.

The Taoiseach

There is legislation in this area – the 1990 Act is the relevant one. There is no proposed new legislation.

Mr. Boyle

Is primary legislation required to deal with the plans of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to take over responsibility for community welfare officers from the Department of Health and Children?

The Taoiseach

While social welfare consolidation legislation is proposed, no particular legislation is proposed to deal with this issue, but I am sure it will arise in that legislation which is due next year.

Mr. Deenihan

This time last year the Taoiseach promised that the health and social care (professionals) regulatory Bill would be introduced after Christmas, but it has not been introduced to date. Will the Taoiseach guarantee that it will be introduced before Christmas or at least immediately after it?

The Taoiseach

While the legislation will be published this session, it may not be taken until the next session.