Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Nov 2003

Vol. 574 No. 1

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny:

Does the Taoiseach condone and stand over the secret deal done regarding facilities at Punchestown? Almost €15 million in grant aid was approved by both the Ministers for Finance and Agriculture and Food for a project in the Minister for Finance's constituency. Is he aware the deal was approved for 100% grant aid within seven days and, when costs doubled, funding was subsequently approved within 14 days? Is he further aware that no cost benefit analysis was carried out; Department of Finance guidelines were not followed; no independent technical advice was sought in regard to running costs or long-term benefit; no research was conducted on the need for such a facility; no other potential providers were asked for their views of expressions of interest; and that it was not even referred to the legal advisers in the Departments of Finance and Agriculture and Food?

Does the Taoiseach condone such activity? Does this not show blatant contempt for the efforts of thousands of people who day in, day out attempt to raise moneys as part of their percentage of funding for boxing clubs, tennis clubs, football pitches and other community pitches? Does it not show blatant disregard for elderly people and those with disabilities who must provide tax and medical certificates to qualify for a shower under the disabled person's grant scheme? Does it not make a mockery of the procedures relating to primary school projects, which must go through six phases and take between three and five years for approval in the first instance while, in some cases, parents must raise a 25% local contribution?

The Minister for Finance railroaded the project through his own guidelines. The Estimates will be published shortly and he has issued a warning to the Secretary General of every Department to scrutinise every euro of expenditure for value in the public interest, yet a situation like this can apply for the rich so that the Ministers for Finance and Agriculture and Food can gain political kudos and stay in with the horsey set. How can the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, who stated the Government must learn lessons from this, stand over it? How can they stand idly by while this happens?

The Taoiseach:

I have been looking back at the file on this because I understood something new had come up late last week but this project was discussed by a select committee on 7 June 2000 and included in an Estimate before the House on 27 June 2000. It was raised again on 13 June 2001, 27 June 2001, 20 March 2002, 26 March 2002, 21 May 2003 and 27 June 2003.

Mr. Kehoe:

The Taoiseach is making a laugh of this issue.

The Taoiseach:

I have read comments by senior members of the Deputy Kenny's party. They said they were delighted to see that in subhead E5, funding is providing for the establishment of a national agricultural show and international eventing and competition centre at Punchestown. They said they were pleased to see this in the Kildare North constituency.

Mr. Kenny:

Will the Taoiseach stand over it?

The Taoiseach:

Some thought quite a deal of money had been provided under the subheads. Others referred to the resources provided under the relevant subheads for a national and international agricultural show centre at Punchestown and hoped that, next year, funds would be allocated to Clones greyhound track – I do not know if that happened. Others acknowledged the intrinsic value of the project. That took place over the last number of years.

With regard to the history of the project, the Punchestown organisation – I understand it is a trust body – wrote to the Department of Agriculture and Food in November 1999, proposing the development of the location as an event and exhibition centre for national events. It subsequently indicated that, following more detailed consideration, it proposed to make significant structural changes, as it did. This revised proposal cost an additional IR£6 million.

On 3 October 2001, the Punchestown trust requested further funding to meet Kildare County Council planning requirements, a sewage treatment plant, additional car parking and other ancillary costs. All of this was highlighted in a major way, both locally and nationally. No other promoter made an approach to the Department to provide facilities for such a centre in the country. That is understandable in the context of the scale of the facilities required, particularly the large land bank which nobody else was able to provide. Events and exhibition centres do not generally make profits, as is well known, and have to look towards a long-term investment in the infrastructure. The letters and details of relevant dates are attached to the report.

In his report, the Comptroller and Auditor General said the proper tender procedures were observed in connection with the placing of contracts and the Department had satisfactory controls in place with regard to processing and payment claims, site inspections and administrative checks. However, he expressed concern as to the adequacy of the valuation in the form of an agreement and stated that, in view of reservations with regard to deficiencies in the form of the agreement, the relevant papers are being examined by the legal services unit of the Department for legal consideration as to whether a new agreement is necessary.

This centre is now up and running. It is regarded as a considerable national asset in the agricultural sector, has already hosted a number of important events and I hope it will continue to go from success to success.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputy Kenny, without interruption.

Mr. Kenny:

The Taoiseach would win an award on any version of Ripley's believe it or not. Not once did he refer to the procedure followed, which is the issue in which I am interested. Was there a public tendering process for this project? If the public has paid 100% of the cost of the centre, does the public own it, or will it own it in due course? As it happened, I was Minister for Tourism when Punchestown was awarded the world equestrian games but had to withdraw due to inability to live up to any of the conditions set out at that time.

The Government's code of conduct for office holders sets out that they should act only by reference to the public interest and dedicate the resources of their offices in furtherance thereof; that they should not be influenced in their official duties by personal considerations and should be accountable for their decisions. As Deputy Rabbitte pointed out at a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee, the Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture and Food said this was a matter as between Minister and Minister and he, as an official, could not comment on ministerial responsibility.

The Taoiseach is in charge of those Ministers. As I see it, the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Minister for Finance have blatantly disregarded every guideline laid down for projects of this magnitude. There was no regard for the public interest, only public kudos. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, who said we must learn lessons from this, sat or stood and watched those two big dippers into the public purse. They stood idly by, like Bonnie and Clyde, watching the public purse being plundered, without any regard to the guidelines they have espoused so strongly in respect of every Department.

In publishing the Estimates this week, the Minister for Finance has specified that every Department Secretary General must scrutinise every euro of expenditure. He should say that to the parents and teachers of school children who need €300 million for primary schools which are falling down, the community groups which are seeking community centres, boxing and tennis clubs, the small organisations which are breaking their backs in an effort to raise a few miserable euro to qualify for a pittance of a grant. How can the Taoiseach sit and watch the approval of €14 million, within a matter of three weeks, with no regard whatsoever to value for money?

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy has gone one and a half minutes over time.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach:

Deputy Kenny asked if proper procedures were followed. The project was examined in detail by the Department of Agriculture and Food; a letter of offer, with 17 conditions, was issued on 1 August; Punchestown accepted the Department's offer by letter of 9 August; the formal exchange of letters was taken by the Department and Punchestown as a binding agreement, as is normal practice in grant-aiding projects by the Department; a separate subhead was provided for the project in the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture and Food for all years while the project was under way. Accordingly, the provision of funding for the centre was open and transparent. Each year, the Department's Estimate was scrutinised by the relevant Oireachtas committee. It is nonsense to suggest it was hidden or not transparent.

The Comptroller and Auditor General stated in his report that proper procedures were observed in connection with the placing of contracts and the Department had satisfactory controls in place for processing and payment of claims with regard to site inspections. As to the aspect on which the Comptroller did not agree, he expressed reservations about possible deficiencies in the form of agreement. Those papers have been referred to the legal services for examination of that issue and to consider whether a new agreement is desirable or necessary. That is an issue to which the Minister will return again.

The Punchestown organisation is a non-profit trust. Although I am not familiar with the deed of trust, I understand that a number of reputable people from different walks of agricultural life are involved in that trust. Part of the requirement for a national centre was to move elements of agricultural exhibitions away from the Royal Dublin Society to a suitable alternative location. It did not relate only to equestrian events but also to agriculture. Those are the issues.

As I said, the project was welcomed wholeheartedly by all who spoke on the matter at all stages. I cannot find any negative comments on it. It is now a resource for everybody and every organisation to use, as they are doing.

Mr. Rabbitte:

Punchestown was a ready-up in the winners' enclosure by the two Cabinet Ministers involved. Last Wednesday, I referred to the PWC report commissioned by the Minister for Transport, which showed that, as stand-alone airports, Shannon would not be viable and Cork would be a serious loss maker. The Taoiseach then said the report would be made available to both sides and the Minister, Deputy Brennan, agreed. However, that had not been done when discussions took place last Friday between the unions and management. Two days later, RTE corroborated my version of the contents of the PWC report, but the question was not put to the Minister as to why he misrepresented the contents when he said that, if the historical debt had been stripped out, the two airports would be viable. The report said nothing of the kind.

I now have new information which relates to the memo brought to Government on 14 October. Apparently, the July decision of Government prohibits Exchequer funding in future for Shannon or Cork airports. The competitive implications of that are disastrous in their knock-on effects for the eight regional airports, especially Kerry, Galway and Knock. There are sensitive issues relating to the pension entitlements of the workers. I have the actual text of the Department of Finance view, which is as follows:

The Minister notes that the memorandum expressly states that the legislation may require review as issues evolve in relation to share capital and regulation by the aviation regulator. Furthermore, consultants with significant legal input are being engaged as advisers to assist the Department of Transport in all aspects of implementation of the restructuring process. The Minister for Finance therefore considers that the drafting of heads of a Bill and the introduction of legislation at this stage is premature and, accordingly, is not in agreement with the decision sought. The drafting of legislation should be done when all issues are resolved.

Why is the Minister for Transport proceeding against the advice of the Minister for Finance and his Department and creating chaos in the immediate industrial relations environment and, more importantly, putting regional airports at risk? Deputy Kenny came from Knock this morning and I came from Sligo.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy's time is concluded.

Mr. Rabbitte:

In the new environment of a prohibition on State or Exchequer funding for Shannon and Cork, those airports will not be able to function. That is the implication for Knock, Kerry and Galway. Why was that concealed from the public? Why did the Taoiseach not make the reports available to the trade unions? He said he would do so last Wednesday.

The Taoiseach:

The enormous aid and resources the Government gives to the airports are what is keeping those airports open. Every single seat is highly subsidised and that is what keeps the regional airports going. The considerable extension in the number of flights to those airports is due to those huge subsidies, as not one of them would be viable otherwise.

Regarding the Pricewaterhouse report on restructuring, my information is that back in March Pricewaterhouse prepared certain financial information for the Department to assist it in advising the Government on the commitment to greater autonomy for Shannon and Cork airports. The report was highlighted as containing sensitive information and, in particular, it referred to the Aer Rianta Eurobond loan and the listing on the Dublin and London stock exchanges, among other issues. PWC information was used in the memorandum for Government which recommended the establishment of three separate airports. Last Wednesday Deputy Rabbitte gave the impression that this was hidden information and did not form the basis of the Minister's presentation but that is totally incorrect.

Mr. Rabbitte:

It is still hidden.

The Taoiseach:

That is totally incorrect. It was part of the memorandum that came to Government. The current position is that there was no formal PWC report as such but an analysis of the projections provided by Aer Rianta was undertaken by PWC to assist in this process. It made no recommendations whatever on policy, in spite of Deputy Rabbitte's comments last week that these were policy recommendations which were put forward. There is no difficulty in sharing this information with the trade union movement apart from the sensitive data. That is the position. The Department of Transport is in consultation with Aer Rianta to make sure the issues of commercial sensitivity are dealt with and when those are addressed the information can be made available.

As I said last week, it is the Minister's view that both Cork and Shannon have an excellent future with this debt-free start. He brought this view to Government last week and the Government agreed with him. The new boards at the independent airports in Cork and Shannon will provide dynamic futures for those regions and it was on that basis that the decisions were made. I understand there is continuing engagement with the trade unions on matters of concern to them. Department officials met the Aer Rianta unions last Friday to discuss issues related to the current stopover policy and future meetings have been arranged, though I have no dates for them. The Minister has repeatedly stated publicly that Aer Rianta workers have nothing to fear from the restructuring. There will be no diminution of their tenure or terms and conditions of employment. That remains the position.

Mr. Rabbitte:

The one part of the Taoiseach's response which was not scripted for him will cause alarm throughout the regions in terms of its implications for the regional airports. He said, "every single seat is subsidised." We know that. What will happen when they are not subsidised and the regulator prevents them from being subsidised? Is the Taoiseach telling the people that Knock, Galway and Kerry will shut down? What is the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, saying about the implications for Kerry? What is the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, saying about the implications for Galway? What is the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, saying about the implications for Knock? Why was this concealed? Why is the Taoiseach proceeding when the Minister for Finance says he may not proceed at this stage because none of the essential work in unravelling the Aer Rianta corporate structure has happened and because it is necessary to get advice on borrowing, bond arrangements and pension entitlements, all of which are complex? The implications for the regional airports will be disastrous if the Taoiseach presses ahead.

The Taoiseach says the unions may have the information except for the sensitive data, but every single page of the PWC report has "sensitive data" marked across it. The Taoiseach is the one who said in this House that they could have the report. The Minister for Transport told journalists they could have the report but when they met last Friday they were not given the report. The Taoiseach has no intention of giving them the report. Furthermore, it was the intention to conceal the advice of the Minister for Finance and his Department in this situation.

The Aer Rianta situation, like so much that the Minister for Transport touches, is a shambles. It is like the port tunnel or the Red Cow. You name it, it is a shambles.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The time is concluded.

Mr. Rabbitte:

The Minister thought it was a marvellous idea, in the interests of competition, to break the airports into three. He looked at none of the implications then – he looked at them afterwards.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I ask the Deputy to give way to the Taoiseach. He has already gone over two minutes.

Mr. Rabbitte:

It is like the proposal to put the Red Cow interchange on stilts. Did anyone ever hear anything so ridiculous? When will the Taoiseach get a grip on his Cabinet? The incompetence of Minister after Minister is shameful and now they want to break up this company, with all that that implies for regional Ireland.

The Taoiseach:

I am glad to hear people are worried about regional airports. I am around long enough to remember how hard people worked to make sure we did not build them in the first place.

Mr. D. Ahern:

Hypocrisy.

The Taoiseach:

We have to listen to that.

The Government has been totally supportive of regional airports. Year after year we have given enormous subsidies to keep the airports open. We have been listening to talk about issues relating to Shannon and Cork for years. People in those areas want autonomy and separate companies within the Aer Rianta structure to market their regions and to get flights which suit their timeframes; then they will not depend on decisions made in Dublin. All the technology companies in Cork and Shannon, in particular, have pointed out time and again that they cannot bring in inward investment and extend otherwise. I have heard this point made by Michael Dell himself and others who are significant employers in the region. They have to be allowed a say in their own region—

Mr. Rabbitte:

Give them autonomy.

The Taoiseach:

—so they can bring in more business.

Mr. S. Ryan:

The Government is stopping Aer Rianta from making decisions.

The Taoiseach:

Deputy Ryan wants Aer Rianta, Dublin, but he wants Shannon and Cork to be part of Aer Rianta, Dublin, also, with no consideration for the regions. That is not the Government's policy.

Mr. S. Ryan:

That is not what I said.

The Taoiseach:

What I said last week was that sensitive information cannot be given but most of the information can and will be shared with the trade union movement.

Mr. J. Higgins:

Yesterday, in hospitals from Tallaght to Ballinasloe and from Blanchardstown to Cork, well over 130 patients languished on trolleys in hospital corridors. Many of them are seriously ill and lying under glaring lights, night and day. All of them are in great discomfort. In Tallaght, 37 patients were on trolleys and 19 were in the corridors beside the emergency room, while that hospital has 35 beds closed in order to save money.

What does the nursing profession have to do to be given the necessary resources to provide beds, given that 3,000 beds are needed? Should some nurses be dispatched with a bottle of champagne to the Punchestown races, in hope of tripping across the Minister for Finance, who might fortuitously be in the company of the Minister for Health and Children? Should they drink a toast to Fianna Fáil, promise a contribution to that party's funds and then return with the resources necessary to care for their patients?

We have this crisis at the beginning of winter, before the real brunt of winter illnesses sets in which will put the elderly, in particular, at risk. Incredibly, we now have a situation where many senior citizens, who could be helped to avoid getting ill and therefore avoid being hospitalised, avoiding further pressure on the hospital system, cannot afford to have the anti-influenza vaccination administered. Whereas the dose is administered from general funding, the administration of it is not and may cost up to €40, €50 or €60. While medical card holders are covered, the limit is only €7,000 per annum and many people are suffering grave hardship as a result. Will the Taoiseach intervene to ensure urgent redress for the lack of hospital beds at the start of this winter and to instruct that all citizens who are at risk from influenza, particularly the elderly, will have the vaccination administered from general funding?

The Taoiseach:

I am aware there were ongoing difficulties in some accident and emergency departments but I am also aware of the considerable resources that have been put into the system by the Minister and the ERHA in the hospitals mentioned. My information is that the Minister for Health and Children recently allocated resources to the ERHA, under the bed capacity initiative, to facilitate the discharge of patients from the acute system to alternative care, thereby allowing for the moving of about 200 patients over the coming weeks in order that emergency cases in A&E departments where there are delays will be provided with an adequate number of beds. Additional A&E consultants were recruited under the winter initiative. They have been appointed specifically to Dublin hospitals. Other issues concerning A&E departments are ongoing in terms of the winter initiative, which the Minister introduced this year and in previous years.

My information is that there is no shortage of the influenza vaccine. All those over the age of 70 and all medical card holders have received it, which accounts for a great number of people. Some 470,000 doses of influenza vaccine were distributed to the health boards and to general practitioners under the influenza campaign. I am aware that an A strain of the flu has been quite severe on children and the elderly. An additional 100,000 doses of the vaccine are available to meet the increased demand in health boards nationwide, which has been notified to the central units of the ERHA. I do not know what the Deputy is talking about in this regard. It is not something on which I have information.

The influenza vaccine is available free to general practitioners for medical card holders and those who come under the ‘at risk' group, who include persons aged 65 or over with special chronic illnesses such as heart, lung or kidney disease and those who have a suppressed immune system, the majority of whom have a medical card. The issue has been well covered. The fee for administering the vaccine in cases where people have no cover is dealt with by the general practitioner and the patient. Everyone in the country cannot have a medical card.

Mr. J. Higgins:

The Taoiseach did not respond to my key questions. I did not speak about a shortage in general of the vaccine but of the ability of a certain cohort of elderly people at risk to afford it and have it administered without causing further economic difficulty – those who do not qualify for a medical card.

Does the Taoiseach agree that the vaccine should be available from general funding to all people in those categories? Does he agree that the 200,000 people who were supposed to benefit from medical cards but who were cheated of them in a subsequent U-turn by the Government should qualify? Is he saying that the only remedy promised for the entire winter is the moving of 200 people out of beds they are currently occupying to enable those on trolleys to be moved to those beds? What about the 3,000 beds that are necessary in the system? Far more than 200 beds are necessary as an emergency measure.

The number of patients on trolleys in Blanchardstown hospital yesterday was 25, yet a state-of-the-art accident and emergency department lies unopened in that hospital and members of the nursing profession there are strongly suspicious that the last tranche of funding to enable it to open is being withheld until a time closer to the European and local elections. Does the Taoiseach agree that would be the most contemptuous cynicism in the treatment of our medical system and those who are desperately dependent on it? Will he address clearly the two or three questions I have put and not give me a second lecture on the strains of the influenza virus? We will leave that to others for the moment. I am concerned about to whom it is available.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy's first question was about the ‘at risk' group – a patient who falls into the ‘at risk' group who is not a medical card holder. There is no charge for the vaccine.

Mr. J. Higgins:

I know that.

The Taoiseach:

It is provided free of charge to general practitioners from health boards' supplies. However, the fee for administering the vaccine in such cases is a matter between the general practitioner and the patient. That seems to be a fair and reasonable position.

On the beds initiative in regard to Blanchardstown hospital and the other hospitals mentioned—

Mr. Healy:

What about the additional medical cards promised?

An Ceann Comhairle:

I point out that this is Deputy Joe Higgins's question.

The Taoiseach:

—I have already stated that an allocation has been made to the ERHA under the bed capacity initiative to facilitate the discharge of patients. Deputy Joe Higgins argued with the figure mentioned—

Mr. F. McGrath:

Patients are on trolleys in hospitals.

The Taoiseach:

—but I cannot resolve that here. Perhaps Deputy Joe Higgins is right or perhaps I am right. The issue is to try to move people occupying acute beds to alternative accomodation. We are trying to do that. We have started to move some 200 patients, but the Deputy said that more should be moved. However, at least we are trying to do that and I am sure he acknowledges that.

On the overall position in terms of consultant care, medical care, bed capacity and other resources, the Minister has been endeavouring to improve the position in A&E departments. They experience peaks in demand at certain times of the year. The issue is to be able to treat the people who are brought to A&E departments and, if they require admission, that beds should be available for them. It requires significant resources to deal with this issue, which is what the Minister is endeavouring to do.