Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Nov 2003

Vol. 574 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 14, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a Council decision on the organisation of the joint flights for removals of third country nationals illegally present in the territory of two or more member states, back from committee; No. 15, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a Council directive on assistance in cases of transit through the territory of one or more member states in the context of removal orders by member states against third country nationals, back from committee; No. 16. motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 17, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Council framework decisions on the application of the principle of mutual recognition to financial penalties, and on confiscation of crime-related proceeds, instrumentalities and property; No. 18, motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a report by the Minister for Defence pursuant to section 4 of the Defence (Amendment) Act 1993; No. 19, motion re Book of Estimates, 2004.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 14 to 18, inclusive, shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 19 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 November and the speech of the Minister for Finance and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and the Minister for Finance shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; Private Members' Business shall be No. 39, motion re criminal justice system.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14 to 18, inclusive, without debate, agreed to?

Mr. Kenny

Sometimes information is so complex that it becomes difficult to decipher. I am grateful to the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip for the reports that are coming back from committees. The report dealing with Nos. 14 and 15 from the committee chaired by Deputy Ardagh, however, recommends that there should be no further debate on the motions by Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann. A committee reporting back to the Houses should not recommend that the Dáil or Seanad should not have further discussion if Members think otherwise.

Mr. M. Higgins

Hear, hear.

Mr. Kenny

No. 17 on mutual recognition of financial penalties involves the recognition of fines and their execution between countries. Will the Taoiseach indicate when legislation will be amended or introduced to deal with fines imposed in other EU member states to give compliance to the framework decision? The background note stresses that changes in legislation will be necessary.

Mr. Stagg

I thank the Chairman of the committee, Deputy Ardagh, for his report but I support the point Deputy Kenny made about the Government-inspired closure of the report. The House should tell the committees that we do not want a recommendation on the discussion of reports – that is a matter for the House to decide. This is a Government-inspired element in all reports, not just that of Deputy Ardagh, who has taken the Whip as a Government committee chairman. I object to that conclusion in the report. Otherwise the report is practically useless, it contains no information. It does not state that the committee divided on the idea that the matter should not be debated. I would like to see a real report so the House has some idea of what the committee did except to say the issue was discussed. This is an important issue and time should be provided to debate it in the Oireachtas. We object to the Order of Business on the basis that this should be debated.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is already at the airport.

Mr. Sargent

The Green Party has no problem with No. 16, but Nos. 14, 15, 17 and 18 involve issues that must be debated, particularly Nos. 14 and 15. Although we hear about the report, for those in smaller parties who do not have representatives on all committees, it is important that the "blacks" are available to read the debate leading to the report's formulation. In such cases we do not have the "blacks" and, as a result, it is difficult to make an informed decision on these issues.

Judging by the briefing note, No. 14 is objectionable because it allows for the use of legitimate force in expelling people. There are questions about how legitimate such force is and how it might be applied, and they should be debated. No. 17 should also be debated given that Jackson Way is being discussed in the news as a result of proceeds that may arise from crime.

With the Defence Forces' involvement in Liberia, it is also important that we debate defence matters if we are to do our job properly. It is totally objectionable that these matters be passed without debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On Nos. 14 and 15, the House is being asked to rubber-stamp measures designed to strengthen further the so-called fortress Europe mentality and its actuality in terms of immigrants. It is simply untenable that this House is being denied the opportunity to peruse the only real report of committee deliberations – a transcript of what took place at committee. As of this afternoon, and for reasons of pressure of work, the transcripts are not available and we do not have the opportunity to peruse in detail the contributions, concerns expressed and conclusions reached by members of the committee on this debate. This will facilitate shared, forced expulsions. Deputy Ardagh, or the Taoiseach on his behalf, might clarify whether this runs absolutely contrary to Article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which prohibits collective expulsions. Has this matter been addressed and will it not now be addressed in the Dáil? The issue cannot be allowed to pass without full and careful scrutiny.

There are two elements to No. 17, a proposition for greater EU harmonisation of judicial measures. These measures apply to every citizen of this State, as they do to other member states, so why will we allow this proposition to proceed without debate? It is like asking us to allow domestic legislation to proceed without a debate on Second Stage, and we would not accept that. Despite the assurances on EU scrutiny, we have a flawed process that must be addressed.

This continuing objection on the part of Opposition spokespeople is not intended for entertainment value or to pass the time, we have repeatedly made these points but the Taoiseach and his Cabinet colleagues refuse to take on board the valid and justifiable concerns of spokespersons. I appeal to the Taoiseach to ensure we have a more appropriate and streamlined method of addressing proposals as important as these that will have legislative effect on the daily lives of citizens.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to be brief. We cannot have a full debate on the matter.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will be opposing Nos. 14 and 15 in respect of the motion.

The Taoiseach

First, these are dealt with in committee. I emphasise again that Members who are not members of committees are entitled to attend the meetings. They can put forward their views and debate them in the committees. Looking at the time slots I see that one of these issues was debated for over an hour, although I do not know the cumulative time involved. The view is put forward, particularly by Deputy Ó Caoláin, that there was no discussion. A committee is a committee of the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That is not what I said. There is no reporting back.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Taoiseach should allow them to work.

The Taoiseach

It is not a committee of people talking among themselves in Monaghan. It is a committee of this House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach should take my points seriously and not try to fudge them.

The Taoiseach

If we believe in the committee system—

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to remain silent and allow the Taoiseach reply.

The Taoiseach

Does the Deputy want to bring them all in here and have no committees? They are discussed and I resent the view put forward every time this comes up that there was no discussion. We cannot use this House to debate every issue that arises anywhere and then say the committees do not work because that—

Mr. M. Higgins

Then allow the committees to work.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Higgins allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption?

The Taoiseach

That is what we are endeavouring to do.

Mr. M. Higgins

They are sham committees. They are not resourced and they are not given autonomy.

The Taoiseach

They are given enormous autonomy.

Mr. D. Ahern

They have more resources than they need.

Mr. M. Higgins

Some of us know a little more about committees.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to allow the Taoiseach continue without interruption. Deputy Stagg made a contribution on behalf of his party.

Mr. Rabbitte

It will not be too long before the Minister, Deputy Michael Smith, is back as Chairman.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On the forum on the European Convention—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to continue.

The Taoiseach

Deputies Stagg and Kenny asked about the recommendation of the committee. That was merely the committee giving its view, having discussed it, on whether we should have a discussion. Perhaps it can be worded in a different way but it is the committee dealing with it and giving a view to the House. This is a new procedure and we can work out how we do it, but I think that is useful.

Question put

"That Nos. 14 to 18, inclusive, be taken without debate."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.

Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Seán.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Wallace, Dan.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deasy, John.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Olwyn.Gilmore, Eamon.Gormley, John.

Harkin, Marian.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Kehoe, Paul.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McHugh, Paddy.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.

Níl– continued

O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.Pattison, Séamus.Penrose, Willie.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.

Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 19, motion re the Book of Estimates, agreed to?

Mr. Kenny

I do not agree with the proposal because every Member in the House is concerned about the Book of Estimates and the consequences both nationally and locally. I oppose guillotining this motion at 7 p.m. tomorrow. We should have an open-ended debate because Members want to speak about issues of concern to them.

Mr. Rabbitte

I support Deputy Kenny. We have already discussed briefly and inadequately the meanest cuts in social welfare we have seen in many years. However, there are other major issues concerning investment in infrastructure which should be debated, but which cannot be debated within the time prescribed. I support Deputy Kenny's request.

Mr. Boyle

We also support the request for more time to be provided to discuss the Estimates. They have caused more public disquiet than any in recent years. This House should give them full and proper consideration. Every Member should have time to contribute properly to such a debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I join with the other Opposition spokespersons in calling for additional time. It is imperative that Members have the opportunity to address some of the cruellest cuts applied to the citizenry of this State in a long time.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 19 be agreed."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.

Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Seán.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Wallace, Dan.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deasy, John.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Olwyn.Gilmore, Eamon.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Higgins, Michael D.Kehoe, Paul.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Padraic.McGrath, Finian.

McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Mr. G. Mitchell

There are now reports from two different committees on the funding of embryo research and the vote on whether to use EU funds for embryo research that will take place at next week's European Council meeting. I have my own views on the matter but I am entitled to know the views of other Members. The House has a right to hear the reasons the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment intends to vote in favour of the proposal and decide whether to give its approval. That is the purpose of the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002. This is absolutely wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question?

Mr. G. Mitchell

I ask the Government to provide an opportunity to debate the two reports on this important issue so that we may find out why the Minister is taking this decision without consulting this House. It is fundamentally wrong that she should do this.

Mr. Neville

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I understand the Minister has already appeared before the relevant Oireachtas committee to speak about this issue or is due to do so. There is no reason people cannot put down parliamentary questions on the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Minister has not appeared before the committee.

Ms Harney

I have offered to do so.

Mr. G. Mitchell

This decision is being made on 27 November, which is next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on the issue.

Mr. Gilmore

Will legislation be introduced to establish the national infrastructure board? The answers we have received on this matter have been confusing. I would like to know with certainty whether there will be legislation.

The Taoiseach

I have answered this a few times but I will do so again. Proposals are being prepared in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government which, after being approved or amended in Cabinet, will come forward in legislation. The proposals have not yet come to Government.

Mr. Allen

The Government is not even fast-tracking the fast-tracking body.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Given the ongoing serious denial of the dignity of the right to work to many people who come to our shores, when can we expect the employment permits (No. 2) Bill to come before the House? It was promised in this legislative term.

The Taoiseach

The employment permits (No. 2) Bill will be published this session.

Mr. Stanton

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has said that he may introduce legislation from 1 January to privatise the prison escort service and to introduce new State management arrangements at Shelton Abbey and Loughan House. Do we need such legislation? Is it in preparation and, if so, when will we see it?

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation listed as yet but the Minister has made it clear that if there is no resolution of the overtime issue he will have to deal with these matters.

Mr. Costello

I want to correct the record in the matter of the item on which we voted. I dissented at the committee from the decision that the matter would come back to this House without debate in either House of the Oireachtas. That is not reflected in the minutes and it should be. I regarded the matter as a fundamental issue of policy that needed to be dealt with by the full House rather than simply being referred to a committee which would then decide whether the House should consider the matter at all. I felt this to be undemocratic.