Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 Dec 2003

Vol. 576 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 11b, motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Adjustment of Profits of Associated Enterprises) Orders 2003; No. 11c , motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences) (Alteration of Duties) Order 2003; No. 12, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the draft Council decision concerning the signature of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Iceland and the Kingdom of Norway, considered by the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights on 2 December 2003; and No. 11afinancial motions by the Minister for Finance, 2003, motion No. 5, resumed.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 7.30 p.m.; (2) Nos. 11b, 11c and 12 shall be decided without debate; (3) the following arrangements shall apply for the resumed debate of No. 11a:(i) the speeches of the main spokespersons or a Member nominated in his or her stead for the Taoiseach, the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 40 minutes in each case, with the spokespersons for the Technical Group being confined to a spokesperson for the Green Party, Sinn Féin and the Independents; and (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon, who may share his or her time, shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; and (4) the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business, that is, within the meaning of Standing Order 26(2) and (3), the taking of any divisions shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 9 December 2003, and accordingly business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 11a Financial Motions by the Minister for Finance [2003] motion No. 5 (resumed), which shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn at 1 p.m.; and No. 3, European Arrest Warrant Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 11b, 11 cand 12, motion re referral to committees of proposed approval by Dáil of the draft Council decision concerning the signature of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Iceland and the Kingdom of Norway, agreed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. 12 is a motion to approve a Council decision concerning an agreement between the EU and Iceland and Norway. It allows for the provisions of the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters to apply in this case. There are very serious ramifications involved in this extension, particularly in the area of extra-State surveillance of individual citizens or people who have made this jurisdiction their home. This includes the right of application for telecommunications monitoring by another State of citizens in this State.

There are very serious matters that must be properly addressed. This matter was referred to committee only on Tuesday of this week, with a very cursory examination of it, and, as with so many of these propositions in the past, the so-called EU scrutiny that we allegedly exercise in this House is not being applied. It is absolute nonsense. We do not have the opportunity to scrutinise it. We have no report back from Tuesday's brief committee deliberations. The great majority of Members of this House therefore have no idea of what is involved in the detail of the proposition before us. To allow this to go through without further detailed scrutiny and debate in this House before determining a decision is irresponsible in the extreme.

I am not standing here merely for the sake of offering an objection. On numerous occasions I have made the point regarding the process of EU scrutiny. The approach to this work is very flawed. I appeal to the Taoiseach to regard this as a priority for address in the new year. This cannot continue because we do not know the extent of the effects on the civil and human rights of our citizens of measures we are adopting in this House. I must protest and can do so only by recording my opposition to this measure proceeding at this stage without debate.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I rise to oppose this matter. The EU scrutiny sub-committee has examined over 400 items in the 12 months since the procedure was set up last October. Some Ministers and Departments have been better than others in co-operating with the committee. Under a law passed by this House and the Seanad, the committee is due to report to both Houses of the Oireachtas on the workings of EU scrutiny up to 31 December. While there has been a great improvement in the way we do our business, in scrutinising regulations and directives in advance, there are continuing difficulties – for example, some draft decisions have not been sent for consideration.

The sub-committee met this morning at 9.30 a.m. and will meet again in two weeks' time. The members are working extremely hard and refer to other committees matters for more detailed consideration. There are resource issues – for example, a staff member seconded from the Department of the Taoiseach was removed and not replaced. I understand there are difficulties relating to Ireland's EU Presidency. The Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs have tried to co-operate, but there are difficulties. These difficulties will be reported to the House in the new year and I hope the House will provide an opportunity to consider them and to deal with any hiatus that exists. Though much progress has been made, more needs to be made.

Mr. Stagg

Will the Taoiseach explain why this matter is before us without a report back from the committee?

Mr. Cuffe

There is a serious concern that such matters are coming through the committee very quickly and that there is not enough time to reflect on them, nor to consider the report. I acknowledge that a report came back from the Chair, but I understand that became available only yesterday evening. Notice of one or two days is not sufficient to allow discussion of such a detailed and technical matter that may well have serious ramifications for the monitoring of communications in this and other countries.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate the points made by Deputy Mitchell. New work and new procedures were involved and we have improved, and will continue to improve, our handling of it. Regarding what Deputies Ó Caoláin and Cuffe said, this matter was fully debated this week by the sub-committee. It is about extending to Norway and Iceland Schengen rules on mutual legal assistance. A report was prepared by the committee, but I am not sure where it is.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

There is no sighting of it by the Taoiseach.

Mr. Stagg

It is not a very efficient office.

The Taoiseach

There was a report. I emphasise that committees are fully operational. Deputy Ó Caoláin's party is larger now than previously. I could understand his position when he was the sole representative of his party in the last Dáil, but there are now a number of representatives of his party and he will just have to make arrangements to send somebody to these meetings.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That is an outrageous remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin, allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy would be better informed if a representative of his party attended the meetings.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach does himself no justice with such a juvenile response.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy considers it a juvenile response, then I will make the teacher's response. Somebody from the Deputy's party should attend these meetings because it is their duty to do so.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 11b, 11c and 12 be agreed.”

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Séamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Fahey, Frank.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.

Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Conor.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Wallace, Dan.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Broughan, Thomas P.Burton, Joan.Costello, Joe.Cowley, Jerry.Cuffe, Ciarán.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Éamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Healy, Seamus.

Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.Lynch, Kathleen.McCormack, Pádraic.McManus, Liz.Morgan, Arthur.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan. Pattison, Séamus.

Níl–continued

Penrose, Willie.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Eamon.Sargent, Trevor.

Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Ó Snodaigh.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11a, financial motions by the Minister for Finance, agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow agreed?

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not wish to divide the House on this matter, we do not need another vote, but if the House is to have Friday sittings in the new term, provision ought to be made for the Order of Business, Leaders' Questions and Question Time, otherwise it is not a meaningful convention of the House.

Mr. Sargent

The matter of tomorrow's sitting is running into the sand. I object to the imposition of a guillotine. This is a matter on which Members wish to speak and sufficient time has not been made available. I therefore object to the proposal.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I object to the guillotine being imposed tomorrow on the European Arrest Warrant Bill in particular. Another issue is being rushed through the House and Members did not have full sight of the implications. The imposition of a guillotine means there will not be a proper debate and the House will not be informed of the full implications of an important Bill.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Friday's sitting be agreed."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Fahey, Frank.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.

Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Wallace, Dan.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Connolly, Paudge.Cowley, Jerry.Cuffe, Ciarán.Ferris, Martin.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.

Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.McGrath, Finian.Morgan, Arthur.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.Ryan, Eamon.Sargent, Trevor.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Boyle and Ó Snodaigh.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

I, like others, welcome the return of the Taoiseach to the House on a Thursday morning. I hope it heralds more attendances by him on Thursdays. In respect of yesterday's budget statement by the Minister for Finance, there are 11 tax relief schemes, some which are being extended while others are new. How many of those schemes will require notification to the European Commission, or has the Government had discussions with the Commission to ascertain whether approval for them will be forthcoming?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not really arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

It does.

An Ceann Comhairle

It might be more appropriate to the debate on the financial resolutions.

Mr. Kenny

It arises on the Order of Business because we want to know how the debate will be structured around that element of the budget.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a question to the Minister concerned.

Mr. Durkan

The Taoiseach wants to answer the question. He has the answer at his fingertips.

Mr. Sargent

I have a question on promised legislation but I wonder if a debate on Northern Ireland is to be scheduled soon? It seems odd that after the election—

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter was dealt with yesterday, Deputy.

Mr. Sargent

It needs to be dealt with again because it has not been resolved.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot waste the time of the House with repetition.

Mr. Sargent

I want to ask a question about the Garda Síochána Bill. Since 1988, only one extra garda in the north Fingal area—

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment on the Garda Síochána Bill?

Mr. Sargent

There has been a 50% increase in population in that area so it is about time we got serious about the Garda Síochána.

The Taoiseach

Yes, the Bill will be introduced next year.

Mr. Sargent

The legislative list indicated that it would be introduced in this session.

The Taoiseach

It will be published before the next session starts.

Ms McManus

Following yesterday's budget announcements concerning social welfare increases, will the Taoiseach clarify what legislation is required to ensure that people who are currently on medical cards will not lose them as a result of these increases?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this regard?

The Taoiseach

Yes, the Social Welfare Bill will be circulated before Christmas.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Earlier this week, Dublin City Council unanimously passed a request for legislation to extend the franchise in presidential elections to citizens north of the Border. This followed an earlier request from Newry and Mourne District Council. In the light of growing public support and demand for such legislation, when does the Taoiseach propose to accommodate all-Ireland participation in future presidential contests?

The Taoiseach

Although there is no date to bring forward changes, there are outstanding issues which are being examined by the constitutional review group.

Mr. Naughten

When will the Taoiseach introduce the legislation required for the decentralisation of Departments? I understand that some elements of the plan will require legislation so perhaps he will outline the specifics of that. When will we see the Civil Registration Bill to allow for the decentralisation of the General Registry Office to Roscommon town, which was promised by the Government over 12 years ago? I hope that does not mean that the next round will take another 12 years.

The Taoiseach

The Civil Registration Bill has been published and I am sure Second Stage will come before the House shortly.

Mr. Naughten

What about the General Registry Office?

The Taoiseach

As with the previous decentralisation, most of these areas do not require legislation.

Mr. Naughten

What about the Land Registry?

The Taoiseach

Some will require legislation and in those cases individual Ministers will bring that forward.

Mr. Naughten

Has the Taoiseach not discussed that yet?

The Taoiseach

Legislation will have to be introduced in cases that require it, but many of them do not.

Ms O'Sullivan

Yesterday, many students from the Dublin Institute of Technology protested outside Leinster House because they are working in totally inadequate conditions. When will the Grangegorman Bill be introduced?

The Taoiseach

It will be published either in the next few weeks or in January.