Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 2003

Vol. 577 No. 4

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

As the Taoiseach is going to London this morning to meet the British Prime Minister and will not be here for the Order of Business today or in the House tomorrow, perhaps I could be given the liberty to express the hope that his discussions with the Prime Minister and the parties are successful and will bear fruit. On a personal basis I wish him all the best for the festive season and hope he is prepared for the enormous challenge of the Presidency on 1 January.

Taking into account that recent events have taught us that the victims of terrorism and their families must come first on issues such as the atrocity of the Omagh bomb, which left 31 innocent people dead, and that those elected to this House are in a privileged position to use authority legitimately to help people, the Taoiseach will appreciate that on a number of occasions during the past six weeks, he gave an indication to the House, endorsed by the Tánaiste last Thursday, that the Nally report would be published in some form or other. Having been given a copy of the report by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, for which I am grateful, and having read it, there are elements of it that should not be let into the public domain. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has said an edited version would be meaningless. In that case, and as it is the season of goodwill, will the Taoiseach give an undertaking that he and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will sit down with the families of the victims of the Omagh bomb and explain to them the elements of the Nally report they can explain to them and, at least, give them that comfort and a sense of interest in understanding the depth of grief these families still experience? In the event that the commitment given is not being honoured in terms of publication of the report in edited form, will the Taoiseach give that undertaking now in the season of goodwill?

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Kenny for his remarks and wish him and his colleagues season's greetings.

I did say previously that we would try to publish the report in some form. As the House is aware there was a considerable legal examination of the report to see precisely how we could deal with the matter. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made a statement last night in so far as he could go. He stated that due to legal constraints and on national security grounds he could only go so far in his statement. Deputy Kenny has asked that we give as much information as we can to the relatives committee, which the Minister met previously. I will discuss that with the Minister to see how best we can do it.

As regards all of these reports, personally I would rather give everything but that is not possible, and it is totally impossible in this case. I will discuss the matter with the Minister. One way or another we will have contact again with the relatives but we need to work out legally what we can give them. Certainly we will do that. However, there are large parts of the report we cannot give and that has been very clear to me. That was the reason for the delay in implementing the report, not that they would see any details that would assist them in any way, but just on grounds of national security. I will look seriously at the Deputy's suggestion.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for that. I hope it will be possible for him to give the relatives information that does not breach national security, for their own comfort so they may get at the truth. My understanding is that the Northern Ireland ombudsman, Nuala O'Loan, was given an undertaking that the group would go back to her before the report was finished, as it was on the basis of her information, intelligence and evidence given to the Government that the Nally report was commissioned in the first instance. Will the Taoiseach confirm whether or not that undertaking was given and, if so, why it was not honoured?

There are two central issues in the Nally report that do not leave it as a fully finished document. The person central to the entire report, known as the informant, was not questioned and when questions were submitted to him, through his legal adviser, they were not answered. There is also a divergence of opinion on the intelligence level and information available to the PSNI and the Garda Síochána in respect of certain aspects of the Omagh bombing. In order to move this forward, does the Taoiseach consider the group should re-examine these two issues or, as they are not professional investigators, could consideration be given to bringing in a professional investigator of international repute to examine those two issues? This could possibly be done in advance of the matter being discussed further here in the new session, when there will be more complete statements and an opportunity for questions and answers.

The Taoiseach

I can answer the first matter. The second matter should be left to the debate in the House. The Deputy has correctly given the answer to the second part of his question. The individual concerned has, on legal advice, not co-operated with the group. We will leave that until the Minister deals with it in the new year.

The members of the group have confirmed that no undertaking was given to Mrs. Nuala O'Loan, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, that she would be contacted again about the report. In fact, the group made it clear to the ombudsman that its function was to report to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and nothing else. No undertaking was given in any form to return to the ombudsman.

Mr. Rabbitte

Yesterday, I offered the Taoiseach my good wishes for the success of the Irish Presidency and I repeat that now.

Is the Taoiseach satisfied with the explosion in the cost of consultants employed by Government, as revealed in the figures recently secured by my colleague, Deputy Gilmore? These show the almost casual incidence of resort to consultants by Government, rising to a cost of more than €100 million in the years 2000-02. That is without including the three big Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Health and Children and Transport. This €100 million is taxpayers' money. It works out at more than €100,000 per day for the employment of consultants and shows an exponential rise over the years. The cost was €22 million in 2000 and almost twice that, €42 million, in 2002. This exponential pattern of increase is evident in most Departments. For example, the cost in the Department of Social and Family Affairs was €22 million, in a Department which seeks to pare €58 million off services to the weakest sections in our society.

Is the Taoiseach satisfied there is not an overly cavalier resort to the use of consultants and that this is not seen as a honey pot where application for contracts is not impeded by close affiliation to Fianna Fáil, as we have seen in a number of instances? Four years ago the Comptroller and Auditor General did a value for money audit of the resort to consultancies by Government, and expressed a number of concerns about the guidelines which ought to apply, not just to the tendering process and recruitment, but to the matters on which consultants are brought into various Departments.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Rabbitte asks if I agree that the figure for the last number of years is quite high. The figure is high and it has grown, like most areas of public expenditure. The Deputy asked if this was necessary in all cases. Without examining every case, there has been increasing recourse in the public service in the past ten or 15 years to seek outside advice on policy decisions and to have some expert examination undertaken by international consultants and domestic firms. The record of who has received this money is available.

Deputy Rabbitte mentioned the Department of Social and Family Affairs. This was spent on the service delivery model for the information technology programme to improve the ability of the Department to pay individuals. In many other Departments consultants have been concerned with information technology. In other cases consultancies have been used as part of the modernisation agenda and are partly concerned with human resources. Ecological and environmental reports are made in cases of infrastructure. An aviation report on Dublin Airport was done by international aviation consultants. Many of these are costly.

Mr. S. Ryan

Which one?

The Taoiseach

There have been several.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Government kept rejecting—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ryan, this is Leaders' Questions.

The Taoiseach

Perhaps Deputy Ryan would like Ministers to make decisions without taking account of any advice from international experts.

Ms Burton

That is what Minister for Finance did.

The Taoiseach

He did not. Many of these reports are necessary. They are made by considered professional experts who give their assessments before the Government makes decisions which involve expenditure of several billions. That is a recurring figure. The analyses in many reports lead on to expenditure of billions of euro in the years ahead.

Mr. P. McGrath

And underestimating social welfare requirements.

The Taoiseach

If they were not done the House would be critical of public servants for not analysing the position in advance, which is the correct thing to do.

Mr. P. McGrath

The Minister could not count how many children are in the country.

Mr. Rabbitte

Deputy Gilmore has given me a letter which the Minister for Transport kindly sent to him because his is one of the Departments not included in the figures. It shows that the number of different consultancies in his Department increased from 48 in 2000 to 136 in 2002. The Taoiseach appears to be saying that this is concerned with expenditure of hundreds of millions of euro. That is true, but have we built more roads more quickly and more cheaply? Has Luas come in earlier and on cost as a result of these consultants? One would need to reflect on the use of 136 consultants in the Department of Transport.

I would have thought the Government is particularly well armed with public relations consultants. They crowd around every Minister, yet we see PR consultancies brought in. There is no difficulty in doing that yet we make cuts in social welfare. Is the Taoiseach saying the expertise is no longer retained in the Civil Service to do some of the work that would have been regarded as normal routine work in the past? People would be shocked to learn that, apart from the three big Departments, €100 million has been spent on consultants, or more than €100,000 per day.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Transport has advised me that he has been involved in four consultants' reports.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach should not blame the former Minister. That is not fair to Senator O'Rourke.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, please allow the Taoiseach the same courtesy which was afforded to you.

The Taoiseach

When Senator O'Rourke was Minister she commissioned a large number of consultants' reports on rail safety. In this House I always pointed out that I was happy to put money into rail safety and we used professional outside consultants. We do not have experts on rail safety in the public service, nor do we have them on ecological or archaeological services.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Government had an archaeological service.

The Taoiseach

Such expertise was needed in the large contract in Carrickmines.

Mr. F. McGrath

What about the cuts?

The Taoiseach

We do not have expertise on international aviation, rail safety and other matters. Some people think people are overpaid in the public service. We do not have international experts who receive millions of euro who are capable of doing this work.

Deputy Rabbitte asked if we are wasting money and if consultancy is growing too much. We should not use outside consultants if they are not necessary. We rarely use public relations consultants. A small number of the contracts are in that area. Most reports are technical and are made by technical experts.

Mr. M. Higgins

Were they consulted about the war?

The Taoiseach

We should only use this money where required. It has improved roads and other matters. A total of 30 major road projects have been completed, involving almost 230 kilometres of road. There are a further 16 schemes and consultants are involved on some aspects of them.

Mr. S. Ryan

On the Red Cow roundabout?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Taoiseach wants to get his money back.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy was against the very good report issued by the consultants.

Mr. Durkan

Where are the consultants? Are they on the Red Cow roundabout?

The Taoiseach

We have had a further 16 schemes of construction involving 173 kilometres of roads, of which 155 kilometres are motorway.

Ms Burton

Millimetres.

The Taoiseach

The answer to Deputy Rabbitte's question is "Yes". Almost 400 extra kilometres of road have been constructed in recent years and consultants have helped considerably in that also.

Mr. J. Higgins

Christmas is approaching and irrespective of religious belief, most Irish people see it as a time for flaithiúlacht, generosity of spirit, and inaction. A group of people urgently need a generous response from the State. They are immigrant parents of children born here who had lawfully applied for residency in Ireland before February 2003, when the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform changed the rules and stopped processing all applications not already determined, leaving thousands of people in a twilight zone. Some of these people were applicants for asylum but when they had children here they were advised, including by those in official positions, to withdraw their applications on the basis that they would get residency as parents of Irish citizens. Those who took the advice are in a precarious and exposed position.

Furthermore, most cannot afford adequate legal representation to advance their case since, unfortunately, they are forbidden to work. It means that children of two, three and four years of age who are Irish citizens, attending school and speaking with Irish accents have parents who are in fear and dread of receiving letters ordering them to leave the country. In some cases they face being forcibly wrenched from communities where many have well integrated and being sent out of the country. It is taking a heavy mental and emotional toll.

The Taoiseach is aware of this because he has visited immigrant support centres and been photographed with the children. As we approach the Christmas season, with one million of our own people settled in Britain, hundreds of thousands in other countries and tens of millions overseas whose parents came from this country, will the Government give a generous response and grant those few thousand people the right of residency here? This would give them the right to make a contribution to society, which they want to make, and to find the same security and future here that millions of our people found around the world.

The Taoiseach

Given our historical position, we in this country have been very generous in dealing with the influx of immigrants and asylum seekers over recent years, and we continue to be so. I do not need to give the Deputy a litany of all the areas, resources and staff involved. The largest influx of staff into any area of the public service was the 150 additional staff recruited mainly this year to deal with the follow-up to the case to which the Deputy referred, the Supreme Court judgment on the residency and status of Irish born children. The relevant section of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was established to deal with the cases to which the Deputy referred, which have arisen because of the Supreme Court judgment.

Legislation has been enacted to address this issue and the Deputy knows that every effort is being made to deal with the outstanding cases. No new legal changes are necessary to deal with them. In so far as this is the Christmas period, the services provided by the State to those who have come here in recent years have been outstandingly more friendly and accommodating than those in almost any other country in Europe. We will continue to operate on that basis.

Mr. J. Higgins

Unfortunately, if I may use the Christmas analogy, the child born in the Irish stable is a citizen but the oxen have more security of tenure than the parents. That is the reality. I met 15 people last week, mainly women in their 20s and some young men, parents of young children who are in this twilight zone. Dealing with the human questions that arise in this area does not call for more staff but a simple change of policy in respect of this cohort of people. It is in the Taoiseach's hands to ensure that happens.

The Coalition Against the Deportation of Irish Children has been established to deal with this problem and it is supported by groups such as Amnesty International, Residents against Racism, the National Women's Council, the Children's Rights Alliance and others. Will the Government change its policy on families of Irish citizen children who had made applications prior to February? Will it also provide the adequate legal assistance to help them make their applications, especially those who are facing deportation orders?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's points can be looked at. To what year is he referring?

Mr. J. Higgins

February 2003.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy knows that there is a Supreme Court judgment in this case.

Mr. J. Higgins

I am referring to a policy decision.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy knows it is not such a simple matter. He picked one aspect of it with which I have some sympathy, where the children are in this country. He also knows that there are many cases where the child has been born in Ireland and the parents have left immediately afterwards. It is a regular occurrence that people come here from various parts of the world to have their children and then return to their own countries. They come here merely to use the maternity services and to get citizenship. I accept the Deputy is aware of the distinctions that can be made in this area, but it is not a simple matter to decide on a loose policy that would enable anybody to use such services. I accept the Deputy's definition of the cohort and in any policy changes all of these issues will be considered but the system cannot be changed in a loose, unregulated way.