Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 2005

Vol. 609 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

As the Taoiseach is aware, thousands of farmers took to the streets today in protest at the European Commission proposals for the next round of the World Trade Organisation talks which will take place in Hong Kong in December. Farming is the one sector in Ireland not to have felt the benefit of the Celtic tiger as it should have. In 1977 the country had 130,000 full-time farmers and this number has reduced by 17,000 to 113,000 full-time farmers now. Since 1997 when the Taoiseach came to office, 50 full-time farmers have left the land each week. The average income in 1997 was €14,000. Since then in many cases farmers' incomes have reduced and average farming income now stands at just €15,000 while the average industrial wage is at €30,000 per annum.

The Taoiseach should be aware that the farming community is very fearful of the proposals made by the European Commissioner, Mr. Mandelson, who has proposed cuts in tariffs of up to 60% in some areas. These proposals would spell the end for small and medium-sized farmers in Ireland and throughout the EU, and could cost the Irish food sector €800 million. The farming community was given clear assurances during the lead-up to the CAP reform in 2003 that that reform would form the negotiating position for the WTO talks in December 2005. Irish farmers signed up for CAP reform with the then Commissioner, Mr. Fischler, on that basis. They are now being told they will need to accept more cuts. The ink had hardly dried on the Fischler proposals and the cheques had barely started to come through, and they are now being told there is no certainty that these will deliver for farmers.

Can I take it that the Irish Government will work with other EU countries to stop proposals on the basis that they go too far and will decimate Irish farming? Has the Taoiseach spoken to the Irish European Commissioner, Mr. McCreevy? What is his view from the Commission in respect of the proposals made by the European Commissioner, Mr. Mandelson?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy said, the negotiations in this matter have been going on for some considerable time. There has been a series of rounds of discussions both within the European Union and with the Americans. Throughout these negotiations we have taken the line that we are in favour of a successful round in the World Trade Organisation talks. We want to see the Doha round concluded. For the sake of trade and trade liberalisation, and to allow for world trade particularly for developing countries we want this round to be successful. We have been adamant in our position that the negotiations of 2003 which led to the latest round of CAP, building on the 1992 round, and the three other negotiations of CAP in recent years should not be given away. As the Deputy knows, we have had some disagreement in these negotiations with the European Commissioner, Mr. Mandelson.

Our view on the negotiations is that we have already given a significant round of concessions in the 2003 agreement. Therefore, our opening position should be that there is no need for us to give further breaks and changes, pending what the Americans will or will not give. The Americans have a different view and have been lobbied extensively on it. There have been several meetings on this, right up to yesterday's round. Yesterday, we were supported by the French, the Greeks and the Cypriots in the discussions. We will continue to put forward our position. At the European Council meeting two weeks ago in Hampton Court both the French President and I, and to a lesser extent other countries, continued our strong opposition to this and supported sticking to the CAP position. As Deputy Kenny knows, there is not a strong lobby on our position within the 25 countries, but we have held the line firmly.

Not to pick up Deputy Kenny, but to make the point as I see it and have held in negotiations, I do not believe it was an "understanding" in the 2003 discussions. It was a commitment. Those discussions were based on a commitment that would go into the next Doha round. It is incorrect, as we established in the meetings with both the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Coughlan, for Mr. Mandelson to feel obliged to give anything further on this. Our commitment was in the decoupling arrangements of 2003. I have argued strongly for the cause of Irish farmers on this. I have argued vehemently in opposition to many of the multinationals in this country who take the trade view. I continue to do that and have spoken to many of the presidents of multinationals here to outline why the issue of CAP reform is so important to us.

Mr. Kenny

Very few people comprehend what is going on or that a small handful of people behind closed doors make these decisions. I recall that at the end of 1996 I was involved in these trade talks in Singapore on behalf of the European Community.

This issue opens a much broader social and moral question about how much we value the need to have a domestic food sector here the quality and safety of which we can be assured. When we put profit before quality, we threaten our food supply and bio-security. These reforms will open the floodgates in Europe to a significantly increased market from, for example, Brazil, whose produce is often of a lesser standard and quality than we would employ. This must remain a source of concern to us. The public must face up to the debate on whether we want food to come from factory farms or hypermarkets, where consumers cannot be assured of traceability, origins or standards of production. We cannot allow imported food products such as beef that does not satisfy the same high standards we demand of our farmers to be sold in Irish retail outfits.

This is an issue of social and moral consequence. Consumers must be assured that the food they consume is of the highest standard. The current proposals will weaken bio-security and the safety of food for all consumers. Does the Taoiseach share my view that the European Commission needs to revisit these proposals, that if it does not, the proposals will decimate Irish farming and expose the consumer to food production practices of doubtful quality and lower safety standards than we have and if implemented, will introduce a regime of cheap food policy? The Government should declare its position openly and clearly.

The Taoiseach

Commissioner Mandelson has stated, following the special meeting attended by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Coughlan, that he would stick to the mandate of 2003. The issue was that he should not go outside that mandate. If we gave away too much, it would help Brazil particularly, and other countries. While we want a liberated trade agreement that helps trade all over the world and deals with tariffs and exports, we do not want one that damages European farming or the Irish position and what was negotiated in the last round of the 2003 agreement.

We are not opposed to changes in the food regime. Part of our negotiating position for several years has been that we help developing countries, particularly the least developed countries. We have been supportive of allowing imports from developing countries into Europe. Europe now has the best record in the world of giving an opportunity to developing countries. This campaign has been fought by NGOs for some years and we have supported it. These imports must live up to the quality standards of the EU. An important point about the CAP, which is not always understood by some of the biggest countries in Europe, is that it provides us with the advantage of good food arrangements, good hygiene standards and good quality. I agree that is hugely important. We have argued this point throughout the discussions.

On domestic supports, the European Union has carried out a radical reform of CAP by decoupling direct payments. That is the position we continue to outline in the talks. We have outlined a strong position, but we are in a minority on that position. We will continue to outline it. It is put forward by some that to be pro agriculture is anti trade or business, and Deputy Kenny raised this issue. We want a balanced agreement. Irish agriculture has gone through three rounds of reforms in the past 15 years and we have given quite a deal in that time. We should not have to give more on the basis of an arrangement where others might give something but have not got agreement for it. I, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with responsibility for trade, Deputy Michael Ahern, have been involved in numerous discussions. It is our view that we should not go outside our mandate and we will continue to hold that position in the weeks ahead.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am sure the Taoiseach will join me in deploring the circumstances in which 13 Latvian workers were abandoned on a small island off the coast of Skerries. This is part of a pattern. It is the latest, but most extreme example of the casual regular everyday exploitation of immigrant workers, in particular poorly paid workers.

The case history is well established. In the case of Gama, it was due to official policy — sponsored invitation from the Minister of the day to that company. The Taoiseach has made his views known in the House on the case of Irish Ferries, where Irish workers were displaced by cheap labour, but I am not sure he has managed to do anything about it. There is a dispute ongoing in Doyle Concrete, in Rathangan, in the constituency of my colleague, Deputy Wall, where workers have been disemployed to allow for the employment of cheap labour. We have had some horrific cases of abuse of migrant workers in domestic service, who are excluded from the terms of the Employment Equality Act. Domestic service was not a phenomenon at the time it was enacted.

One of the latest cases I know of from the rights commissioner is that two workers employed for only three weeks were found to have been cheated out of €7,000. It is unclear whether the money will be paid to the people in question on foot of the rights commissioner's findings. In another case, a person who worked on a mushroom farm for 12 hours a day, seven days a week, was paid half the minimum wage rate. Such cases are part of a pattern.

The number of inspections carried out by the labour inspectorate decreased from 8,373 in 2002 to 5,160 last year. Four new inspectors have been appointed to the labour inspectorate, bringing the total number of inspectors from sixteen and a half to twenty and a half. There is less than one inspector for every 100,000 workers. There is less than one per county. Every county has a dog warden, but not every county has a labour inspector. The number of labour inspectors is inadequate to force compliance with employment legislation and to tackle the phenomenon I have mentioned.

The Taoiseach

I join Deputy Rabbitte in condemning the actions of an employer of some sort, who abandoned a group of Latvians on an island off Skerries at the weekend. The status of the employer in question is not quite clear from the reports I have been given, although I have received a name. The people in question were abandoned off Shenick's Island, which is half a mile from the coast of County Dublin. They would have had to stay on the island overnight if it were not for the assistance of the Skerries lifeboat and the marine co-ordination centre. I have received a report outlining the details of what happened in this case, but it will probably be tomorrow before more detailed reports are available to me. A number of parties, including the Garda Síochána, the Health and Safety Authority, the marine inspectorate and the labour inspectorate, have started to investigate the incident over the past day or two. One of the issues being examined is whether the employer in question had a licence to engage in activity of this nature. If he was involved in some formal way in the production for sale of periwinkles, which I presume he was, he was subject to many Acts and may well have been in breach of them. Such matters are being followed up and examined by the various relevant authorities.

I am keeping in close touch with developments in respect of Irish Ferries. The latest position is that the unions met yesterday and it is expected that the court will issue its determination shortly. Both sides restated their positions yesterday but did not engage in negotiations, unfortunately.

Deputy Rabbitte referred specifically to the labour inspectorate. The recently recruited cohort of inspectors will be allocated specifically to areas of employment dominated by migrant workers, such as cleaning, agriculture and services. The Government provided funding at the end of April to meet the cost of an additional ten labour inspectors and a supervisor, to be appointed to work mainly in that area. The interviews have been completed and some inspectors have been employed. When they are all in place, there will be a total of 31 labour inspectors. The Deputy was correct to state that fewer inspections have been conducted this year than last year. The decrease took place when a number of inspectors were taken from other work and asked to examine certain issues relating to Gama Construction. That was the right thing to do at the time.

Although most employers, including those who employ workers from the new EU member states, follow the rules and obey the laws, there are breaches. We have to use the additional inspectors being recruited to work on such cases. I hope that will be enough. Some 8,000 inspections were conducted each year under the old system. Extra work has had to be done on the detailed inspections. The Minister will keep the system under review. I deplore the breaches of the law to which I have referred.

I remind Deputy Rabbitte and certain people outside the House that the Government decided last year to allow people from the new EU member states to work in this country from 1 May 2004. That decision was taken to help the position of the Irish labour market and to deal with the fact that we had full employment, in effect. We were confident that laws were in place to ensure that such people were treated properly. It behoves everybody to obey the laws to which I refer. We have to come down extremely heavily on employers who are in breach of those laws. The Government is in the process of increasing the number of labour inspectors from 20 to 31. I hope that will make an impact. I will give Deputy Rabbitte the full details on this issue as soon as I have them, but it will probably be tomorrow.

Mr. Rabbitte

Can we deal with the facts? The number of labour inspectors has not yet been increased from 20 to 31. A recent response to a parliamentary question made it clear that there were sixteen and a half inspectors. Just four of the ten new posts mentioned by the Taoiseach have been filled. Therefore, there are twenty and a half labour inspectors, in my language. We are not talking about the complement — we are talking about the number of labour inspectors actually in the service. I would like to comment on the report submitted by the labour inspectorate to the Government. According to The Irish Times of 8 April last:

Lack of staff, resources, training and legal support is hampering the pursuit of employers who exploit their workers, labour inspectors have told the Government. Confusing legislation, inadequate powers, ambiguous targets and a lack of clarity on their roles are also hindering their work, the inspectors say in a confidential document [submitted to the Government].

That is the actual position. We are facilitating the development of an underclass of cheap labour in this economy. We can see on our television screens the implications elsewhere in western Europe of alienating an underclass who are abused.

Mr. Quinn

Hear, hear.

Mr. Rabbitte

As far as I understand it, the extent of the abuse of the underclass in that country is not as bad as what is going on in this country.

Ms McManus

Hear, hear.

Mr. Rabbitte

Many people from other countries, who are working in domestic service, are prisoners in the homes of this country's nouveaux riches. They are being exploited and abused as they work for long hours to do the most menial of tasks for the poorest of pay. Such abuse is not confined to sections of the construction industry, Irish Ferries and Gama Construction. The Minister promised portable work permits, but the Bill that was brought to the House did not measure up to the Minister’s promises. The work permits that will be issued to people from other countries under the Bill will not be portable. The proposed legislation is an inadequate improvement on the existing position. Even if the 31 labour inspectors were in place — they are not in place — there would be little more than one inspector for every 100,000 workers. We need to take action if we do not want to build problems for ourselves. The casual replacement of workers taking place in Rathangan shows that the policy being pursued at Irish Ferries is catching on. It is possible to casually replace a number of indigenous or other workers with cheap labour. We need to address such matters now and to show the foresight that will help us to avoid the kind of problems being encountered in the suburbs of Paris and elsewhere.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

If legislation is not in place to prevent or dissuade people from engaging in any kind of abuse in any area, we should strengthen the existing provisions. Most trade unions and employers have said that the current legislation is adequate in most areas.

Ms McManus

For shame. What else does the Taoiseach expect the employers to say?

Mr. Stagg

I do not know of any unions that hold that opinion.

The Taoiseach

On summary conviction, people engaging in such abuse can face a fine not exceeding €5,000 or imprisonment of up to six months, or both. In a case of conviction on indictment, people engaging in such abuse can face a fine not exceeding €100,000 or imprisonment of up to two years.

Ms McManus

How many people have been convicted?

The Taoiseach

A host of tough provisions can be used if a person is proved to have been in breach of the law in the Skerries case. The penalties in place in other areas are also quite strong. If the law needs to be strengthened, I will not have any difficulty with doing so.

Mr. Quinn

Yes, it needs to be strengthened.

Mr. Rabbitte

Does the Taoiseach know that domestic service is exempt from the Employment Equality Acts?

The Taoiseach

I accept that point.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Rabbitte to allow the Taoiseach to conclude without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I accept the Deputy's point about people working in the home. It is not covered by legislation, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Taoiseach should look at the meat factories.

The Taoiseach

However, strong powers and laws exist both in regard to companies that are unionised and those which are not.

Deputy Rabbitte is correct. There are not 31 inspectors in place but 31 have been approved.

Ms McManus

For shame.

The Taoiseach

I understand the reason they are not all in place is due to the difficulty in getting people to take up this kind of work. People have been interviewed for the jobs. Dealing with this end of the labour market is not seen as a very attractive profession even though the remuneration is quite good. We must deal with this issue. It is believed that we can tackle it when we have 31 inspectors. We will try to get them in place as soon as possible. I have been checking on the matter both this morning and yesterday since I saw the reports on this particular issue.

In some cases where there is a vacancy in a workplace an individual from Latvia, Lithuania or Poland is taken on. That is not a case of displacing an Irish worker. Where there is blatant displacement by an employer, it should be reported. We can examine those issues. We would take a very dim view of a campaign by some employers to improve their margins by getting rid of Irish workers and replacing them with workers on lower earnings. That is a different issue.

Mr. Wall

That is what is happening.

Ms McManus

It is already happening.

The Taoiseach

If there is evidence of that, it should be reported.

Mr. J. Higgins

It is going on wholesale. The Taoiseach knows that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach's time is concluded.

Mr. J. Higgins

It is going on in the meat industry and everywhere else.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not Deputy Joe Higgins's question.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Taoiseach is aware——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have to ask Deputy Higgins to leave the House if he continues to interrupt.

The Taoiseach

It is a well known fact that it is nearly impossible to get an Irish person to work in the meat industry. Let us not start confusing the issue. If people are abusing the system or there are sectors we have not covered, I am in favour of doing whatever is necessary in that regard, but a host of legislative measures already exist. When I inquired today about the legislative measures in place to deal with this action over the weekend, I was informed that approximately 25 laws are in place to deal with the person concerned in the area of food, the marine, hygiene and safety. A host of legislation is in place. If issues are reported, there is a process for dealing with them in a range of areas. The particular individual in question is being investigated in five different areas.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Is the Taoiseach aware that a report published today by public health researchers in Trinity College has analysed the travel distance and travel time of people accessing health care and that the data have been gathered from throughout the country? The report shows that people living in parts of County Donegal, all of County Leitrim, the western part of County Cavan and throughout County Monaghan are at a major disadvantage as far as accident and emergency service access is concerned. The report calls for a formal and structured arrangement for the integration of accident and emergency services along the Border, not only to serve the needs of those in the counties I mentioned but also their counterparts living directly opposite on the northern side of the Border. Through such a structured arrangement, people would have quicker access to emergency services, especially accident and emergency services.

Will the Taoiseach urge the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to act on this report and to step up formal co-operation on health services generally on a North-South basis? In the course of Taoiseach's Question Time he acknowledged the importance of North-South co-operation. In light of this report I also ask the Taoiseach to urge the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to restore accident and emergency cover on a 24-7 basis at Monaghan General Hospital as an integral part of this address in the interests of all the people of County Monaghan.

I recently had personal experience of a quite serious road traffic accident just north of the Border from County Monaghan in County Fermanagh. The experience was very disturbing. No emergency service arrived at the scene of the accident for almost two hours despite repeated calls. The Garda would not come 200 yards across the bridge to attend the accident and it was almost two hours before the PSNI attended the scene. No ambulance came in response to the calls to the emergency services, although one happened on the scene after an hour and 40 minutes by chance as it travelled on an errand between Monaghan and Cavan hospitals. Two of the people involved in the accident, including the driver who was aged more than 70 years and was suffering from chest injuries, were left at the scene of the accident for a considerable time. They were subsequently brought to hospital and detained overnight.

There are many instances of this type of experience along the Border. I urge the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children to exercise themselves to ensure we have an equitable health service in the Border counties and one that is truly caring and accessible. The report today from the Trinity College researchers confirms the importance of action before there are further unnecessary fatalities.

The Taoiseach

The report stated that those people who are not close to hospital services, especially those in rural communities, must travel greater distances. That is stating the obvious. I will not go into the situation at Monaghan General Hospital again. There are hospitals in the area and an examination is being carried out into the best clinical and medical ways of dealing with the health needs in the area. Discussions are taking place on that matter. Discussions are also taking place between clinicians and management in Letterkenny General Hospital and Altnagelvin Hospital in Derry to seek to develop services, particularly breast cancer services. An application for a consultant general surgeon with a special interest in these issues is under consideration by the National Hospitals Office. A new dedicated transport service has been established for patients travelling from Sligo to University College Hospital Galway.

Obviously we will do what we can to improve the travel arrangements for people to hospitals, either in Border areas or anywhere else in the country. The investment that has been made in many regional hospitals in facilities will help in that regard, as will the appointment of additional consultants in many of these areas. Obviously, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children and the Health Service Executive will continue to do all they can to improve the situation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach's answer lacks any substance. It is imperative that he listens to the cry of the people because a great need exists. This is the reality of their experience. Will the Taoiseach insist that the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children initiate whatever formalised and structured arrangements are necessary to improve the accident and emergency cover in the Border counties? Will he help ensure greater integration of accident and emergency provision in the Border counties, of which the Monaghan case is one that is integral and cannot be divorced from the overall need and requirement along the Border from the Cooley Peninsula to the Inishowen Peninsula? The Taoiseach's colleagues in Government are very aware that such an integrated approach is essential to save lives.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

My time has concluded but I ask the Taoiseach not to conclude on this issue. It is important that he listens and recognises that people are putting forward a cogent argument that has been supported by sustained inquiry from professional and informed people. This latest report is yet another example of the body of work that argues and sustains the argument for an integrated and co-operative approach to accident and emergency cover in the Border counties. I again state, without apology, the importance of the restoration of 24-seven accident and emergency cover at Monaghan General Hospital. Will the Taoiseach do that?

The Taoiseach

To specifically answer the Deputy — I may have been too general — all the hospitals, Letterkenny, Sligo, Omagh, Daisy Hill in Newry, Cavan, Drogheda, Dundalk and Monaghan, are trying to work in co-operation. That is why I mentioned the efforts with Altnagelvin and Daisy Hill. We are very anxious to work with them. The Tánaiste is due to have meetings next week or the week after with the medics in the North about further co-operation. We are in favour of that and of trying to improve the services and facilities.

As has been stated, one cannot have everything in every hospital, but one must try to ensure we have a good service across all these areas as well as in other rural areas. We are committed to doing that and it is happening. A large number of the additional accident and emergency consultants have been appointed to these hospitals and we are making efforts to try to continue to do that.

Over the past four or five years much work has been done on a North-South basis. We are trying to increase co-operation where it makes sense to do so to avoid the type of case the Deputy mentioned where neither service responded to an incident.