Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Nov 2005

Vol. 610 No. 1

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

On 5 October this year, the Taoiseach assured the House that all IT projects within the Health Service Executive would be reviewed, including a contract with a company called iSoft. The project in question was mentioned again in the newspapers this weekend when it emerged that there had been no consultation between the Health Service Executive and either general practitioners or hospitals on the purchase of the software in question. It has also emerged that while the Department of Finance has sanctioned two packages — iEPR, the electronic patient records system, and Lorenzo, a patient management system — it has withheld sanction for the roll-out of the Lorenzo package.

The questions I want to ask the Taoiseach relate to the circumstances in which the iSoft contract was signed. My information is that the contract, worth €56 million, was signed on Saturday, 30 April 2005. This was done following the Department of Finance granting oral sanction for the signing of the contract to the acting director for IT in the Health Service Executive on 29 April. Is it true that this contract was only signed after high-level emergency meetings involving officials from the Department of the Taoiseach, the Office of the Attorney General and the Department of Health and Children? Can the Taoiseach explain why a contract of this significance was signed on a Saturday? Why was it based on oral sanction and what was the rush? I am quite sure the Taoiseach's excellent officials have prepared for him a long document on the value on these IT systems but I would prefer if he answered the specific questions on the circumstances in which the contract was signed.

The Taoiseach

I will do as Deputy Kenny asked and will not give a long description of the benefits of all these contracts which are necessary in the system. I understand some of the contracts were signed following consultation and some were signed after very long consultations with the companies and having regard to tendering arrangements with the companies. Some of the contracts that were signed were subject to a prolonged period of roll-out and a check was not carried out on them each year. I do not have the details on the contract pertaining to Easter of this year.

When he attended the Joint Committee on Health and Children recently, Professor Drumm stated it was the Health Service Executive's assessment that he and his management team would reconsider all these contracts, not only recent contracts but those of the past few years. The purpose of that is, first, to ascertain whether the contracts were necessary — he made the assumption that they were necessary — second, to find out whether the executive should have a better mechanism for considering the roll-out and in particular to find whether it was delivering what it sought to deliver in the first place, third, to ensure that all the proper arrangements in regard to accountability and management procedures were put in place and, fourth, to ensure that the Departments of Finance and Health and Children were fully engaged with the executive. Professor Drumm said he would report back on all these issues, including with regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Obviously, he would not cover the contract of last April referred to by Deputy Kenny. We await that report and until we know all the details, I have no more to say on the matter.

Mr. Kenny

I noticed that, coincidentally, the Taoiseach gave some exclusive interviews at the weekend.

Mr. Brennan

So did the Deputy.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach did not answer any of the questions I asked. Why was this contract signed on the basis of oral sanction only? Why was it signed on a Saturday? Why was it necessary to have high level emergency meetings between officials from the Department of the Taoiseach, the Attorney General's office, the HSE and the Department of Health and Children with regard to it being signed? Why, if the Department of Finance gave oral sanction to purchase these two software packages, has the same Department refused the roll-out of the Lorenzo package?

We have witnessed an obscene wastage of public money, particularly in the Department of Health and Children. General practitioners protested yesterday outside Tralee hospital in Tralee at the lack of beds and that 10,000 operations were cancelled this year. Will the Taoiseach, in answering these questions, assure me that the Government was not put under pressure by iSoft to sign this contract on or before 30 April? Will he assure the House that the apparent rush to sign the contract on 30 April was in no way related to the fact that iSoft's financial year ended on 30 April?

The Taoiseach

When Professor Drumm and his colleagues report on the details of all the individual contracts, I will provide the information based on that report. A number of these matters and a number of contracts are under examination by the Departments of Finance and Health and Children, the HSE and Professor Drumm. While they are being examined there is no point in my pre-empting those discussions. These questions have been raised by the Department of Finance. Many of the contracts have long-term roll-outs, although not the April contract. The contracts are necessary and are not a waste of money. However, they must be benchmarked to see whether they are delivering what is required. We will have a full report from the HSE before Christmas and we should consider the facts on that basis.

The general practitioners protesting outside Tralee hospital are demanding a fair share of resources. The HSE and hospital management are available to discuss the concerns of GPs and I understand those matters are under consideration. A number of new developments are ongoing in the area, including the development of a new emergency department and an ambulatory care unit, and construction of a palliative care unit at the hospital. However, it is clear that GPs are aggrieved. To address their concerns it is proposed to establish a GP liaison group which will include consultant medical staff, hospital management, GP representatives and the community services section of the HSE.

With regard to the number of cancellations, the figures released by the HSE show that 10,368 operations were postponed, not cancelled, for various reasons in the first six months of the year.

Mr. Howlin

They were postponed, not cancelled.

The Taoiseach

In some cases it was not appropriate to operate because patients were not well enough. My point is that this does not automatically mean there was a delay. It is a regular occurrence.

Mr. Crawford

Is that what Professor Drumm said?

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy knew anything about hospitals, he would understand. The figure refers to less than 2% of the total of 527,000 patients treated in acute hospitals in the first six months of the year. Operations can be postponed due to emergency cases being prioritised over elective cases, for reasons of infection control or availability of medical and nursing support and, in some cases, when accident and emergency units are full. That is one of the reasons but it is not the only one.

Dr. Cowley

Twelve patients are on trolleys today in Mayo General Hospital. A girl with appendicitis has spent four days on a bed in the accident and emergency unit.

Mr. F. McGrath

That is the real world.

Mr. D. Ahern

We are paying GPs too much.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption, please.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach will be aware that there were two more gangland murders in my constituency at the weekend and three gangland murders the previous weekend, and that there have been 17 gangland murders so far this year. The Taoiseach will recall the fulminations of his colleague, Deputy O'Donoghue, in opposition to the effect that if a letter went missing or a bicycle was stolen, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the day should resign. Since then, the figures show that four gun murders occurred in 1998, 20 in 2003 and 17 so far in 2005. Meanwhile, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform one year ago claimed he was satisfied that a murder in Blanchardstown was what he called the last sting of the dying wasp.

Mr. McGinley

That must be last year's wasp.

Mr. Rabbitte

There is now a veritable swarm of wasps, yet the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform seems to think that his first duty is as a panellist in various television and radio studios.

I will give the Taoiseach a statistic: 75 murders where guns were used occurred between 1998 and 2004, but proceedings were taken in only 26 cases, 35%, and convictions were secured in only 12 cases, 16%. The Taoiseach will have heard the State solicitor in Limerick last week explain that even where cases go to court, they fall asunder because witnesses are fearful and there is no adequate protection of witnesses.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is concluded.

Mr. Rabbitte

These gangland killings are turning the system into gangland law. It will not be long, if those involved feel they have a 90% chance of escape, before they turn their guns on targeted citizens.

The fulminations were not just those of Deputy O'Donoghue because the Taoiseach joined in on 21 April 1997 when he said he had a message for drug barons. He stated:

Our plan is to arrest you, prosecute you, and put you in jail. Fianna Fáil's plan for zero tolerance will put the gardaí and the community in the driving seat, with a major crackdown on all crime, and particularly on drug crime . . . Fianna Fáil's anti-drug strategy is a tough, totally co-ordinated programme to tackle each of the key players — the addict, the pusher, the drug baron.

Does the Taoiseach admit Government policy to date has been a complete failure and that there is fear on the streets at the level of lawlessness and gangland crime?

The Taoiseach

Regrettably, there were two gangland murders at the weekend, bringing to 17 or 18 the figure for gangland murders this year. The Minister had briefings yesterday and today with senior Garda officers, including the Garda Commissioner and deputy commissioner, on the double murder on Sunday night in south-west Dublin, to which Deputy Rabbitte referred. He briefed me and my Cabinet colleagues this morning on the double murder in south-west Dublin on Sunday night, referred to by Deputy Rabbitte. All the indications are that this event was part of a vicious feud between two relatively small groups that are struggling to control drug distribution in areas of the west side of Dublin. These people deal in death and they will kill to protect their patch and recover their debts. I am subject to correction on this, but I understand the gangs concerned are responsible for eight of the 18 murders committed this year. The Garda has invested a large amount of resources and detective and surveillance time into Operation Anvil to target these two gangs specifically. The vicious feud has continued for some time, as Deputy Rabbitte knows.

The Garda has been concentrating enormous resources in terms of manpower, overtime and intelligence towards suppressing the activities of what is a highly dangerous group of criminals in recent months. Its efforts have not been targeted exclusively at these two gangs, although it has concentrated on them significantly. Obviously, I cannot go through all the detail on which I have been briefed in this regard and, in any event, much of it is well known.

Garda activity under Operation Anvil, which was originally meant to be a short-term programme, has continued as the numbers of gardaí and specialist units have increased. There is now a drugs force in every Garda district. The Garda has 18,000 checkpoints under Operation Anvil while several hundred firearms and more than 2,350 vehicles have been seized. The Garda has had more than 5,000 drugs seizures, seven arrests for murders, 163 for serious robbery and several hundred for other forms of burglary. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, with the backing of the Government, has allocated considerable resources to Operation Anvil which will remain in place so long as it to continues to yield worthwhile results.

However, it is no use saying that drug crime is not lucrative. It attracts certain types of persons. The consequence of their disagreements, unfortunately, is death because that is how they do their business. This is of concern to everyone and the only way to tackle it is for the Garda to try to deal with the problem to the best of its ability, as it is doing. Not much remains unknown about these gangs, but the Garda must remain within the law in dealing with the problem, nonetheless.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach describes the problem well. However, many people will want to know why nothing adequate is being done to protect public safety, which is the first duty of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government. The Taoiseach appears to think, because he describes what is taking place as a "vicious feud", that somehow this explains matters and we should all turn a blind eye. One has some idea why people are fearful in their homes, given this type of calculated assassination at 10 p.m. in the evening in Firhouse, a very quiet part of my constituency. I hear the Taoiseach saying that the Minister was briefed by the Garda Commissioner and so on. However, we have long since passed that stage.

The disconnect, so to speak, between the Garda and some of the communities where gangland rule dictates is very severe. The previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, said he would be judged by how safe people feel in their homes and on the streets at the end of his term. If he were to be, it would be a very harsh judgment because people do not feel safe in their homes or on the streets. People are victims of anti-social behaviour like we have never seen before. Whatever briefings the Minister is having with the Garda authorities, there is no evidence of policing in whole tracts of my constituency and in urban and rural Ireland. That is the fact of the matter.

The Taoiseach talks about Operation Anvil. It is like shooting fish in a barrel for gardaí to stop motorists for bald tyres, defective lights and whatever. However, in the area of serious crime, the figures speak for themselves. The situation is deteriorating dramatically and if the Taoiseach accepts the benchmark of his comments in 1997 or the policy set out by the Government, he will see that there has been a complete failure because citizens feel helpless in the light of the extraordinary events now taking place every weekend. A State solicitor has said that even where prosecutions go to court, they cannot prevail because witnesses fear for their personal safety.

The Taoiseach

I have said previously that any crime is too much. There is no level of crime with which one can be happy.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Where are the 2,000 extra gardaí?

The Taoiseach

The Garda budget is more than €1 billion.

(Interruptions).

Mr. D. Ahern

The Opposition should not behave like a fascist party. They should let the Taoiseach speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach speak without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

We have dramatically increased resources for the Garda, including technology, which is high for a population——

Mr. Costello

What about the telecommunications system for the Garda?

The Taoiseach

——of our size. Resources are being increased and invested in the Garda. Next year, there will be 14,000 gardaí and large numbers of specialist groups have been set up.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Government has recruited 300 gardaí. It promised 2,000 and we have 300.

The Taoiseach

The crime rate per thousand of the population has fallen from what it was nine years ago.

Mr. Howlin

That is bunkum.

The Taoiseach

The crime rate has fallen.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The figures speak for themselves.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will not allow a situation to develop where Deputy Rabbitte goes well over time in putting his question, goes outside Standing Orders and the Chair does not take appropriate action to ensure that the Taoiseach or any member of the Government can reply and there is fair play for both sides of the House.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I understand, but I was speaking under provocation from the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

A number of points were made by Deputy Rabbitte. He said that the prosecutions do not always produce results in court. That is a matter for the courts based on the evidence provided. However, we should give credit where it is due. Yesterday, we saw the conclusion to a serious murder case in Limerick which occurred some time ago when a night security worker was executed by a hit man on behalf of some gang. That case was resolved yesterday, which was a major achievement for the Garda. Today we have seen a major drug pusher arrested in Belgium. I have outlined the figures for Garda seizures of firearms and drugs and arrests for murder, robbery and the theft by gangs of high powered vehicles. We have seen the Garda crack down very hard on those gangs. The Garda is well aware of who is involved in the two gangs in the south-west Dublin murder and is making a major effort to close down their activities.

To paint the picture that Deputy Rabbitte does is not justified. We need to support the increasing numbers of gardaí through giving them resources and assisting them in every way possible. The law-abiding public is doing more and more in this regard. However, drugs are a lucrative business and attract very dangerous people. I do not have time to go through the legislation but we have provided all the legal powers possible on the Statute Book and in the Criminal Justice Bill to deal with these issues.

Mr. J. Higgins

Today, Irish Ferries has stated, arrogantly, that it intends to push ahead and sack 543 unionised workers, replace them with exploited labour from the Baltic states and ignore the recommendations of the Labour Court, which is not exactly a revolutionary body. Callously, two employers' organisations, IBEC and the Irish Exporters Association, are today backing the use of semi-bonded labour by Irish Ferries. This points to a growing pack of corporate wolves who believe workers are not entitled to a decent job, a decent wage and decent working conditions with health and safety safeguards as they pursue their super-profits. The Taoiseach denounced Irish Ferries in this House and said it should not do what it is doing. Does he feel humiliated that the company has responded to him with a rude gesture? Or is it the reality that behind the scenes, the Government is showing no commitment to fight what Irish Ferries is doing? He refused to bring in legislation to outlaw this exploitation. Last year, the Government paid Irish Ferries €1.13 million to crew the MV Normandy with similarly exploited labour. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources arrogantly threatened to turn An Post over to cheap labour employers when the postal workers dared to stand up for justice. A few years ago, the Tánaiste roamed the Middle East inviting big businesses with cheap labour practices to come here. Has the Taoiseach any shred of credibility in the face of this relentless campaign to drive down wages and workers’ conditions? If Irish Ferries is allowed to sack these workers, then every grasping boss in the State will feel he has carte blanche to sack permanent workers and to replace them with cheap, vulnerable, exploited migrant labour.

Will the Taoiseach bring in emergency legislation to outlaw Irish Ferries from introducing semi-bonded labour on it routes? Will he accept its sackings as legal redundancies and have the taxpayers subsidise the scam? What precisely does he intend to do? Can he be very clear in his response?

The Taoiseach

As I have said previously, the orderly conduct of industrial relations depends on respect for the basic norms of the institutions of the State, the Labour Court in this instance. The recommendations of the Labour Court are not generally binding, as all employers and trade unions know, but they should be respected as the proper resolution of disputes. This is especially the case with the Irish Ferries dispute. I said this to the trade unions, management and the executive of Irish Ferries when I met them. The court has spelled out very carefully its views on the fundamental aspects of the negotiations and on the collective agreements. It upholds the basic principles that agreements should be honoured unless there are compelling reasons to vary them. In this case, having heard the comprehensive arguments from both sides, the Labour Court concluded that the company has not made a sufficiently compelling case to justify the unilateral termination of the agreement with SIPTU. The court went on to state that all the possibilities of re-negotiating aspects to the agreement of concern to the company had not been exhausted. It recommended, therefore, that the parties resume negotiations on such changes as are necessary in order to address the commercial needs of the company. Having regard to the clear risk to the conduct of ordinary industrial relations to which the Deputy referred and which the Labour Court said would otherwise arise, I urge strongly the parties to enter into the negotiations with an independent facilitator if necessary. The issues in dispute between SIPTU and the company can be resolved satisfactorily and speedily and they should do that.

The Deputy also raised the issue of the company's plans to recruit new staff to reflagged vessels. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has declined an application by the company to remove the vessels from the Irish register and to transfer them to the Cypriot register. He did so on the advice of the Attorney General. I have been advised there is little prospect of regulating the employment conditions of staff employed on vessels which are under the Irish flag. The other issue raised was about the handling of the redundancy payments and tax law. What I said about them previously still stands.

Mr. J. Higgins

Does the Taoiseach accept the State in which he rules is increasingly becoming a cold house for workers and their rights as has been demonstrated by the actions of Irish Ferries? We have had the ludicrous situation where the Competition Authority recently threatened trade unions with prosecutions if they negotiate for lowest paid workers among us, such as actors, musicians, film technicians and so on. The Taoiseach gave me chapter and verse on the Labour Court recommendations, but I asked him what the Government will do, which he has not answered. I would like him to be very forthcoming in that respect. It is quite clear what Irish Ferries intends to do, but what will the Government do?

The meat industry is a hive of exploitation, where any Irish worker or a migrant worker who wants the trade union rate will not find a job as the rates have been driven down. Workers on Stena Line, which is a competitor of Irish Ferries, are getting trade union rates at the moment. What will happen to their conditions if Irish Ferries gets away with this? This is truly the race to the bottom. I ask again whether the Government will legislate to outlaw this disgrace. Why did the Taoiseach say there is little prospect of regulating wages and conditions for Irish seafarers? He was the king of Europe a year ago. Why did he not introduce legislation so that no sweatshop boat could ply the waters with impunity? He can still do it.

The Taoiseach

I said I was advised there was little prospect of regulating conditions of employment for staff on vessels which are not under the Irish flag. That is not just a European issue, but an international one. Many of these flags of convenience are used outside Europe as well. That is why it could not be regulated when the issue was looked at previously on a number of occasions.

Ms Lynch

If they are forced to comply with health and safety regulations, why is it that the Government cannot force them to comply with wage levels? It is the most regulated industry in the world, but the companies cannot give their staff proper conditions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach answer the question posed by Deputy Higgins.

The Taoiseach

I already confirmed that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has declined an application by the company to remove its vessels from the Irish register and to transfer them to the Cypriot register. The Deputy asked me what I am recommending. That is the job of the Labour Court. I am not an independent arbitrator in this case. I support the court and its recommendations.

Mr. J. Higgins

It made its recommendation. What will he do about it now?

The Taoiseach

I support the recommendations and that is what should be implemented. We have conveyed that to the company. Having listened to all sides, the Labour Court set out what I believe is a fair and comprehensive decision on this, and that is what should be followed.

Mr. J. Higgins

I hope All Hallows got a lot more satisfaction from its conversations with the Taoiseach than we have got.