Vol. 655 No. 1
84 Deputy Olwyn Enright asked the Minister for Education and Science the national vetting procedure for teachers; if he is satisfied that the system is robust and comprehensive; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19952/08]
In the education sector, vetting is currently done in respect of newly appointed teachers via the initial registration process with the Teaching Council. It is also done for prospective employees for posts that involve working with children such as special needs assistants, bus drivers, bus escorts to children with special needs, caretakers and other ancillary staff.
As the expansion of service by the Garda vetting unit is rolled out my Department will be consulting the relevant stakeholders such as school managers and the unions on how best to introduce vetting of existing teachers and other education staff working with children.
Ensuring the protection, health and welfare of children is a key concern for this Government, parents, agencies that work with children and society generally. To that end, the programme for Government provides for a proposed amendment to the Constitution which will further strengthen our ability to protect our children by allowing the Oireachtas to legislate for the exchange of information that is not confined to information on criminal convictions. The programme is committed to putting in place the necessary structures and systems to increase co-operation on vetting and the exchange of all relevant information about those who work or seek to work with children and vulnerable adults.
Furthermore, there is a commitment to provide extra resources to the Garda vetting service and also to develop an all-Ireland approach to child protection.
It is important to recognise that though vetting is a vital and important process that currently can alert a prospective employer about a criminal record of a prospective employee who will be working with children, it has to be complemented through a general vigilant approach by the employer when recruiting, particularly though checking references with previous employers and probing any gaps in an employment record. This is as important for individual schools employing personnel as it is for any other employment where the care of children is a concern.
I can assure the Deputy that this Government is determined to do all that it can to keep our children and vulnerable adults safe.
I welcome the Minister to the House as Minister for Education and Science and wish him well but I put it to him that if he were to reduce the padding in the reply to the question we would see the reality, which is that the current vetting process is meaningless. Will the Minister concede that there are 55,000 teachers to whom this vetting procedure does not apply? In the light of his response, is the Minister saying that the improvement in the vetting process is in some way linked to a constitutional amendment because if that is the case it is news to me? What steps does the Minister propose to take in the immediate future to ensure the expansion and development of the vetting system to include teachers already in employment and not just new teachers coming into the system?
With reference to the role of his Department, will the Minister spell out precisely his role as Minister for Education and Science in this matter or does he intend to leave it entirely to the boards of management which appear to be introducing different rules and regulations in a haphazard and meaningless way?
I thank the Deputy for his kind wishes. There is a vetting system in place for all new appointments and all temporary appointments.
The Minister is emphasising the word "all". He should emphasise the word "new".
I am concise in what I am saying. There is a vetting system in place for all new appointments and all temporary appointments. I agree with the Deputy on the roll-out of vetting for existing staff. We have been in contact with the Garda vetting unit on that matter and we are trying to build up a capacity between our Department and that unit to ensure a vetting system is put in place in that particular area. All of that is co-ordinated by the Teaching Council when graduates make their initial application to teaching colleges. The next roll-out will involve the full-time and existing staff. That is being done by the Garda vetting unit in conjunction with advice from the implementation group on Garda vetting.
Regarding the constitutional amendment, and this is important, my colleague, the Minister for children and youth affairs, is the lead Minister on this issue. The Constitution, as it stands, inhibits the power of the Oireachtas to provide for the exchange of information between gardaí and social services and prospective employers. This matter is being handled by the constitutional committee, which has received approximately 144 submissions. We have decided to extend the committee's timeframe, until 30 November 2008, in which to complete its deliberations and make a recommendation to the House.
Has the Minister recognised that there is an existing loophole in the arrangements affecting untrained substitute teachers? I understand that there are 1,000 of those teachers within the system and there are no means by which they may be vetted properly. This was the subject of a report in a newspaper about three weeks ago. Has the Minister investigated that, is his Department aware of it and how can we ensure the safety of our children and the veracity of a vetting system when in excess of 1,000 untrained teachers are sloshing in and out of the system without any procedures to follow?
We are obviously aware of it and there will always be some level of unqualified personnel. That will occur as a result of short-term absences. It is inevitable that schools must be in a position to have recourse to unqualified personnel. My predecessor indicated her intention to bring forward amending legislation which would set the limitations on a school's capacity to engage other than qualified teachers, and it is my intention to advance this amendment to the Teaching Council Act 2001 in the current year.
In response to the Minister's reference to all new teachers, will he clarify the position of those who may have come back after extended leave of absence? What is the situation? Are they covered?
They are not covered.
I cannot give the Deputy an answer to that question, but I will find out the information and report back to him.
85 Deputy Billy Timmins asked the Minister for Education and Science about the ongoing negotiations between his Department and autism groups on the issue of recognition of ABA schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19990/08]
226 Deputy Finian McGrath asked the Minister for Education and Science the position regarding future developments on ABA schools for children with autism. [20205/08]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 85 and 226 together.
The Deputy will be aware of the Government's commitment to ensuring that all children with special educational needs, including those with autism, can have access to an education appropriate to their needs preferably in school settings through the primary and post-primary school network. This facilitates access to individualised education programmes, fully qualified professional teachers, special needs assistants and the appropriate school curriculum.
The establishment of a network of autism-specific special classes in schools across the country to cater for children with autism has been a key educational priority in recent years. In excess of 315 classes have been approved around the country at primary and post-primary level, including many in special schools. Children in these classes benefit from having fully qualified teachers who have access to training in a range of autism-specific interventions, including applied behavioural analysis, ABA, the treatment and education of autistic and related communication handicapped children, TEACCH, and the picture exchange communication system, PECS. These students have the option, where appropriate, of full-partial integration and interaction with other pupils. Funding is also provided for assistance technology and specialist equipment as required and special school transport arrangements may also be put in place.
My Department has put in place a training programme for teachers in autism-specific interventions including TEACCH, PECS and ABA through the special education support service. A recent initiative has been the expansion of this service to enable it to recruit a behavioural specialist support team, led by a person with a PhD in applied behavioural analysis.
My Department's ABA pilot scheme was established in the absence of this network of special classes in our schools. Since July 2007, there have been 18 meetings with the autism groups in relation to the commitment in the current programme for Government to long-term funding for the centres that are in the ABA pilot scheme subject to agreement with my Department on standards that will enable them to be supported as primary schools for children with autism. The discussions have been wide-ranging and have included curricular issues, funding and staffing.
Discussions between the autism groups and my Department are progressing well. My Department is very anxious to finalise these discussions so that permanent arrangements can be put in place as soon as possible. It has been agreed not to disclose the details of the discussions while they are ongoing. It should be noted that discussions are taking place with Irish Autism Action on 12 of the 13 centres and separate direct discussions are taking place between the Department and the remaining pilot centre. The Deputies will appreciate that I am not in a position to comment further on these discussions.
I want to be associated with the earlier comments and congratulate the Minister and the Minister of State on their new posts.
Unfortunately, I echo some more of the earlier comments as well. I am none the wiser after the Minister's answer to the question asked by Deputy Timmins. Is the funding available for the 12 extra schools or has it been agreed? The Minister is new in the job and I do not want to give him a hard time, but I point out that the reality is not as he has outlined. There is a school in Castleknock and I know of another one in Swords where there is a teacher, a classroom and two special needs assistants, who are not particularly well trained in autism, but it is better than nothing. However, they cannot get access to speech and language therapy, a behavioural psychologist or occupational therapy so that they cannot function. That is the reality on the ground. What is the situation vis-à-vis funding for the 12 extra ABA schools? Are they being funded and, in the event, when? When is it hoped the negotiations will conclude because they have been going on for a very long time?
We prefer to call them discussions rather than negotiations. My officials will meet again next week to bring this matter to a conclusion. The Department of Education and Science has sanctioned the establishment of 13 centres for children with autism, which would operate through ABA.
Will the Minister clarify whether those are in addition to the existing 12 schools that currently have funding?
No, all other applications will have to be looked at in the normal way. There are other applications for recognition and they will be examined in light of various applications in particular areas. I emphasise we have funding for the 13 centres and we are in negotiations on the 14th. That is the agreement to date as regards ABA. However, I do not want to go into further discussion until the two players involved have completed their assignments.
I, too, want to avail of the opportunity to wish the Minister well in his new portfolio and congratulate him on his frontline responsibilities.
Does his response represent the fact that the new Minister for Education and Science is approaching the whole issue of autism spectrum disorder with a new copy book? I must take hope from what he says, that the discussions, as he terms them, will indeed address the serious outstanding issues which were left on the departure of the previous Minister. I expect the Minister accepts that autism spectrum disorder, by its nature, covers varying degrees of severity and, therefore, different responses are required. If the Minister is not in a position to provide the detail, what we need is an affirmation of his intent to fully recognise the importance of ABA for those children for whom it is clearly appropriate, and that is the critical point. We want to see appropriate measures and opportunities in place which are accessible to all children on the basis of their respective needs.
Will the Minister indicate a willingness on the part of the Department under his stewardship to approach the whole provision of funding and resources for ABA on the basis of need as required across the board?
With the change of Minister I hope we shall now see a change of attitude from the Department of Education and Science in terms of dealing with this issue and in terms of bringing to a conclusion these discussions because the pilot schools have been in existence for the past nine years. As my colleague, Deputy Reilly, and others said, the Department only engaged in this issue following the debate in the House in February this year, when the hollowness of the previous Minister's position was exposed for all to see.
As regards the 12 pilot schools on which the Minister wants the discussions to be concluded, is he saying that once the talks are finished there will be absolute agreement on these institutions, but that a way for other schools to emerge in other parts of the country will be indicated, if that is the choice of parents, where the need arises?
The Minister has a window to chart a new course; he should grab it with three hands.
I thank the Deputies for their interventions and Deputy Ó Caoláin for his good wishes.
I agree wholeheartedly with the Deputies on the child-centred approach. Meeting the needs of the individual child is what is important. It was stated the needs of the child can change from time to time and Deputy Ó Caoláin seemed to accept there are different approaches to meeting them. I come to this issue with an interest in ensuring there is sufficient capacity in the system, that the teachers are professional, that the enhanced resources put in place to date will continue to be made available and that the National Council for Special Education will advise the Department on progress that can be made on this issue.
86 Deputy Lucinda Creighton asked the Minister for Education and Science if additional funds will be provided by his Department to schools to pay for water rates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19936/08]
I am aware of the cost pressures on schools, including those arising from water charges, and it is therefore a priority for the Government to improve funding for the day-to-day running costs of schools. Specific commitments on improving school funding form a central part of the education provisions of the programme for Government. These commitments are a direct follow-on from the clear thrust of Government policy over recent years to improve the position of schools, primary schools in particular.
Primary schools are receiving over €178 per pupil to meet their day-to-day running costs, representing an increase of nearly 70% over the 2002 rate of €105, and €15 more per child than they received last year. Post-primary schools have also seen improvements in funding and, owing to a similar €15 increase this year, they now receive €331 per pupil. As the Deputy will be aware, we are committed to doubling the capitation grant for primary schools over the lifetime of the programme for Government.
In the context of reducing water costs for schools, it has been demonstrated that fitting simple water-saving devices to toilets and sinks can reduce water consumption considerably at very little cost, as can other small works such as fixing easily identifiable leaks. Primary school authorities may use their annual minor works grant to fund such measures. The minor works grant has increased by nearly 50% over the past two years and some €27 million was issued to primary schools at the end of last year for that purpose.
The Government agreed a transition period to full water charges in the case of non-fee-charging recognised schools and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has advised local authorities of the detailed arrangements regarding the implementation of this decision.
The transitional arrangements afford schools the opportunity to put in place water conservation arrangements and practices and to undertake works that can help reduce water usage significantly before full water charges are introduced. By virtue of good water conservation, schools can be in a much stronger position to reduce the impact of water charges on their overall budgets.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
Guidance was also recently issued to schools on the most appropriate measures to minimise excess consumption of water and to reduce wastage where it exists. In addition, water conservation issues will continue to be addressed by my Department as a matter of routine where new schools are being built or where major renovations are being carried out to existing schools under the schools modernisation programme. Furthermore, those schools with very high water consumption will be identified and contacted with a view to introducing measures to help them reduce water usage.
My Department remains in close liaison with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regarding water conservation and is supportive of any initiatives by it and local authorities that will help reduce water costs for schools.
I wish the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Haughey, well.
Much of what the Minister said would be fine were it not for the fact that the Department fails to recognise that the average debt of national schools throughout the country is €23,000. The content of the circular issued by the Department in response to the water charges issue, namely, that caretakers and cleaners should use proper mop buckets and provide push taps, would be laughable if it were not so serious. The reality is that there has been no indication from the Minister, in response to this question, as to how much the Department will provide to schools that go ahead with the suggested works and as to when it will provide it. There is no indication of the cost to schools of obtaining a separate water supply. When will the Minister provide additional funding to allow boards of management of schools to implement the suggestions in the circular? How much will he give the schools for this purpose?
I do not expect to be in a position to make further improvements to capitation grants in the current year. However, I am very conscious that it is necessary to increase them and I will keep this need very much in mind.
Two issues arise, one of which concerns conservation of water in schools. Fitting simple water-saving devices should be relatively cost-effective. More important, I would like to see the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, inculcating in children the benefits of conserving water.
Under the transition arrangements agreed by Government, schools will play a flat fee per pupil. The fees are €3 per pupil in 2007, €3.50 per pupil in 2008 and €4 per pupil in 2009. On the basis of metering, the charges applied for 2007 will be recalculated according to the transitional flat rate with credit given for any excess payment. My legal advice suggests that by 2010 we will have to move towards full cost recovery. The transition period was to give schools an opportunity to consider their systems of conservation to ensure water would not be wasted. We have put in place a minor works scheme to ensure that where leaks occur funding can be used to carry out repairs.
It is fine to talk about the interim period but the Minister should clarify whether the Department will fund the cost of water provision thereafter. The circular states the local authorities will be identifying the relevant schools with excessive consumption. Has there been consultation with the local authorities in this regard? Most Members realise local authorities do not have the personnel or resources even to identify much more serious difficulties that arise in delivering their services.
Under the EU water framework directive, all non-domestic users must pay for water used. This system will be fully in place by 2010. It is important that we all exhort school authorities to conserve water.
The Minister is suggesting they are wasting it but they are not.
Schools can make a significant impact on lowering the charges they have been meeting to date by installing simple water conservation devices. They can use the €27 million made available at the end of last year under the small works scheme to ensure leaks are repaired.
I accept the Minister's remarks on the encouragement of young people and schools to engage in water conservation, but we cannot single out schools, penalise them and force them to fund-raise for water, thus distracting them from the provision of quality teaching, which is their primary responsibility. Why not apply the same principle to Garda stations, military barracks, Departments and the Houses of the Oireachtas? Why are schools being singled out in this instance? It is surely incumbent on the Government to ensure teachers are given the wherewithal to get on with the job of teaching and that pupils are given the opportunity to learn, including in respect of the issues the Minister highlighted. The further noose or requirement placed on boards of management to raise money to provide simple essential services such as water for drinking and flushing toilets is surely unacceptable.
I am glad the Deputy agrees there should be a water conservation policy within schools. Such a policy should be actively pursued. As for the Deputy's question on the Government response, I already have outlined a transitional arrangement that will be put in place by the Government to alleviate some of the difficulties. Schools have been given an opportunity until 2010 to put in place conservation measures.
However, I cannot do anything because the Government has sought legal advice on the EU water framework directive which makes clear that all non-domestic users must pay for water used. Schools, like other non-domestic water service users, must pay water charges. The legal advice also confirms they will be required to pay the full cost of water services used by them on a metered basis, with effect from 1 January 2010.
New advice.
The directive also requires that——
Failure of the previous Government deal.
——measures be put in place up to 2010 to move towards full cost recovery. The only exemption in this regard pertains to domestic households.
Go raibh maith agat a Aire.
Schools are in the same position as all other users, including charities and social services.
If the Minister will facilitate me, I am trying to allow a number of Deputies to contribute.
No Opposition Members dispute what the Minister has just put on the record of the House. The net question is how, under a free primary school education system, will schools meet the cost of the conserved water they will be obliged to pay for.
That is right.
Will it be paid out of raffles and fund-raising from parents or will the Minister increase unilaterally the amount of capitation specifically above and beyond existing commitments to meet this additional cost? Members do not dispute the legal basis, as that day is over. While the schools must pay the cost, who will give them the money to do so? Will it be the Minister or will they be obliged to revert to the parents?
Deputy Brian Hayes may ask the Minister a brief supplementary question.
I have been running a book since 2.30 p.m. on the number of programme for Government promises the Minister has ditched. This is the third such promise. He ditched one on class size, another on information and communications technology and now he has ditched a programme for Government commitment.
I do not agree with the Deputy.
I will remind the Minister of what the Government stated only eight months ago. It stated it would introduce a waste and water allowance based on school numbers and that charges only would become effective after the agreed allowance was exceeded.
Exactly.
The Minister now has informed Members he has received legal advice that from 1 January 2010, the school will be obliged to pay the whole shebang. Talk of making it up as one goes along. Will the Minister confirm to the House that the programme for Government commitment now has been ditched?
Of course I will not confirm that because it is not the case.
That is what is happening.
Please allow the Minister to reply.
Deputy Hayes should separate two issues. The first is the legal framework and the legal position from 2010, which is that the full cost must be paid by schools.
Everyone accepts that.
That is the first issue.
Please allow the Minister to reply.
I accept the Minister has changed his position.
In his response to me, Deputy Hayes did not accept that.
I accept the Minister has changed his position.
Please, Deputy.
If the Deputy was listening, I stated that in respect of capitation grants and schools, I intended to keep that issue foremost in my mind. This is one of the issues I consider must be addressed in my term of office. I can only give the commitment that this issue is very much on my mind.
Does that mean funding?
I do not wish to give a hostage to fortune. Members will appreciate that at present, I am going through all the finances with the Department. As an issue however, I believe that as Minister for Education and Science, I must examine capitation seriously.
I agree with the Minister.
87 Deputy Seán Barrett asked the Minister for Education and Science if the quality of the educational provision in primary schools across the country will be enhanced or at least maintained in view of his reversal of the Government’s commitment in the programme for Government to reduce class sizes, thereby depriving schools of the services of more than 140 teachers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15574/08]
The programme for Government sets out the overarching policy position in respect of the provision of additional teachers and on reductions in class size over the life of the Government. The programme contains a commitment to increase the number of primary teachers by at least 4,000 and on that basis to make further progress on reducing class sizes.
Budget 2008 provided my Department with €4.6 billion, or an additional €380 million, for teacher pay and pensions. This was a very substantial level of additional investment in the context of the economic environment on which the budget was based. This allocation will pay for an increase of more than 2,000 primary teachers on the number that was teaching in schools when the Government took office last summer. It covers the additional teachers who went into schools last September for the previously announced reduction to a staffing schedule based on a ratio of 27:1, as well as additional teachers this school year and in the coming school year to meet increasing enrolments and to provide for special needs and the language requirements of newcomer children. This means that in respect of the overall commitment to provide at least 4,000 additional teachers, the Government will be well ahead of target in its first two years in office.
All programme for Government commitments to improve public services, including those relating to class size, are contingent on the economic and budgetary environment and the need for prudent expenditure and fiscal management. Even since the presentation of budget 2008 last December, there have been significant alterations in the external and domestic environment. All things considered, any reasonable observer would regard the actions by the Government that will see the allocation of more than 2,000 additional teachers to primary schools to be a considerable investment.
As for an impact on the quality of provision, it also must be borne in mind that the number of teachers relative to students is only one of many variables affecting the quality of education provision. International research on the experiences of the top school systems suggests the three things that matter most are getting the right people to become teachers, developing them into effective instructors and ensuring the teaching system is able to deliver the best possible instruction for every child.
I hope the Minister did not write that reply himself.
Essentially, it is the quality of teaching in individual classrooms that has the greatest impact.
It is important that the Minister should indicate to the House whether the commitments given in the programme for Government on reducing the staff schedule this year, next year and the following year will be put in place. I specifically refer to commitments that should be honoured in 2009. Many schools will lose a teacher or two this year because of the Government's failure to honour its promises.
I also will refer to a promise made in respect of post-primary education. A unequivocal commitment was made by the Minister's former leader, Deputy Bertie Ahern, at the Ard-Fheis before the recent election that a reduction in class size would take place in respect of the core subjects of Irish, English and mathematics in post-primary education.
This question relates to primary education.
I appreciate the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's comment. On the question of class size, does the commitment regarding post-primary education also apply in this instance? In a previous question, I sought illumination on the promise made in 2002 that no child of nine years or under would be in a class of more than 20. Will the Minister state unequivocally whether this promise now stands?
First, this question has been dealt with in part as one of the priorities. I reiterate that in respect of the Government's commitment to have 4,000 additional teachers in employment over five years, after two years, the Government has employed 2,000 teachers.
That is merely standing still.
Pupil numbers are increasing.
Please allow the Minister to reply.
The Government is on target. In fact it is ahead of target in respect of this issue.
The Government is merely standing still.
I beg Members' indulgence in this regard. I have been in this position for two weeks and have indicated clearly that I have entered discussions with my officials regarding funding and demands on funding within the Department. I am not in a position at present to indicate clearly the destination of capital funding or what is the current funding side. I certainly am not in a position to indicate what will be available to me as part of the 2009 allocation. The commitment I will make is that the programme for Government provides for 4,000 additional teachers.
It promises more than that.
I am committed to doing so. Obviously, like everything else within all strategies across Departments, the commitment regarding pupil-teacher ratios will be contingent on the available finances. Were Members to read the programme for Government, it stated clearly that all the aspirations contained in it were contingent on finances being available. At the time, this was stressed greatly by the then Minister for Finance.
Members are here to help.
I fully appreciate that the Minister is new to his portfolio and the likelihood is that he will not be able to answer my question.
He is very experienced.
He is very experienced indeed.
I wish to put him on notice that this is information he should be able to offer to Members when they seek it. How many additional teachers would be required to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in primary education by one? What additional resources would be needed to fund that intent? Is the Minister in a position to answer the question?
To give the Minister some light relief, his predecessor as Minister for Education and Science, who held the position for many years more than the Minister, was not able to answer this question earlier this year.
I cannot give accurate information off the top of my head but the ratio is currently 27 to one and to reduce it to 26 to one would require around 500 additional teachers, I would think. This would cause a requirement for additional classrooms and other facilities so one cannot quantify the cost solely in terms of teachers' pay.
Why was the promise made, then?
It has been overlooked.
There are other consequential costs involved. The previous Minister clearly indicated that she was putting at bay the issue of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio for this year. That was her decision and it stands for 2008.
It is a most regrettable decision.
The Minister must pick up the pieces.
88 Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Education and Science the steps he is taking to ensure adequate capacity for all primary school pupils from 1 September 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19730/08]
Under the programme for Government, my Department has established a developing areas unit to provide sufficient school accommodation in those areas experiencing the greatest population growth. The function of this unit is to liaise with local authorities, to identify where new schools are needed and to ensure that these schools are delivered in the fastest possible timeframe.
As part of a fast-track programme of construction for September 2008, my Department is building five 16 classroom primary schools and 25 eight classroom primary schools in those areas where school accommodation is under greatest pressure. More school places will be needed in many other places as well. This year, €586 million has been provided for the schools building programme. In addition to the fast-track programme, construction work is expected to be completed on about 48 large-scale primary school projects and 19 large scale post-primary school projects throughout the country. Additional projects will continue construction into 2009.
This programme will ease the pressure in the short to medium term. However, I am aware that the latest publication by the Central Statistics Office on population and labour force projections indicates that the population aged five to 12 years is projected to increase by at least 10% in the next decade. This will happen even with zero net migration and falling fertility rates. Depending on the extent of inward migration, the increase could be even greater. Meeting the demand for school places arising from these increases will in be a major challenge for my Department and for the State.
In general terms, population growth leading to pressure on primary and post-primary school accommodation is likely to be strongest in the areas along the east coast commuter belt, the greater Dublin area and in the areas surrounding other major cities. However, many other areas will also experience pressure.
At the moment, my Department is identifying the areas where significant additional accommodation will be needed for 2009 and onwards. This work will be done in consultation with local authorities. The findings of this process will be the basis of a further programme of construction for 2009 and 2010.
Future school accommodation needs are established by looking at overall population growth, recent and planned housing developments and the capacity of existing schools to meet demand for school places. My Department is satisfied that the approach it is now taking to the identification and delivery of extra school places, particularly in rapidly developing areas, will ensure that school places will be provided when and where they are needed.
Is there is a contingency fund for urgently needed replacement school buildings in his Department? Would this fund be used in a situation involving health and safety risks? I gave the Minister information relating to a school that is 109 years old, is physically crumbling and infested by rats and so on. An offer has been made, although it has not been accepted by the Department, to provide a school between now and September at a cost lower than that applying to the rental of prefabs, as was indicated by Deputy Quinn. This can be done at local level and I ask the Minister to take up this offer.
The Minister has been in his Department for two weeks and I genuinely wish him well. We will work with him on this side of the House but we must start from a basis of honesty. The honest position is there is chaos and crisis in the provision of primary classroom spaces for our children.
Hear, hear.
The Minister referred to the CSO projections. There will be a minimum of an extra 100,000 pupils in addition to the 450,000 primary school pupils we currently have. As we speak, the Minister's Department cannot inform Deputy Hayes or I how many of those children will be taught in prefabs.
That is right.
I wish the Minister well but he has a hell of a job to do. Let us start with the facts and with honesty and then we will try to help the Minister.
I thought I was being honest in that I indicated to Deputy Quinn that I would write to him personally outlining all of the data he sought relating to prefabricated buildings.
After two months.
I can only deal with the issue as I find it. I will write to the Deputy in the next week or so to give him the full details.
I thank the Minister.
I do not think the picture is as bad as the Deputy paints it. During my term as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government with for responsibility developing areas, I had many meetings with representatives of the planning and building unit of the Department of Education and Science. I met local authority managers in developing areas and we sat around the table to work out a series of protocols. An excellent programme is being put in place. For the first time local authorities in developing areas, or what we call hubs or gateways, are feeding information to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to give an accurate picture of what is happening, how much progress has been made, the number of houses and the anticipated population growth. This is something that was not done previously but is now in the remit of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
We in the Department of Education and Science will continue to liaise with local authorities and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to ensure we get exact figures that will allow us to measure requirements precisely. We are satisfied we can meet the accommodation needs of pupils.
Do we have a contingency fund?
I think so.
I hope so.
Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.
